0:00:02 > 0:00:07Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk
0:00:08 > 0:00:18Welcome to Hardtalk, I'm Stephen Sacker.
0:00:18 > 0:00:22For the 17 years Vladimir Putin has ruled Russia,
0:00:22 > 0:00:24as President or Prime Minister, he hasn't done it alone.
0:00:24 > 0:00:29He's been backed by a coterie of trusted associates,
0:00:29 > 0:00:32connected through past ties in St Petersburg or in the KGB
0:00:32 > 0:00:39or in business.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42And one of Mr Putin's inner circle is my guest today.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Vladimir Yakunin ran Russian railways for a decade
0:00:44 > 0:00:45and was a close Putin adviser.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48So much so the US made him a target of sanctions
0:00:48 > 0:00:50after the invasion of Crimea.
0:00:50 > 0:00:52He left the railway two years ago.
0:00:52 > 0:00:53Is he still a true believer in the Putin Project?
0:01:26 > 0:01:31Vladimir Yakunin, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35I think it's fair to say, you, for a decade more,
0:01:35 > 0:01:38were one of Vladimir Putin's closest associates and advisers.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41In general terms, as you look at Putin's impact upon Russia,
0:01:41 > 0:01:44would you say that you believe he is taking Russia in a very
0:01:44 > 0:01:50positive direction?
0:01:50 > 0:01:53Thank you for your introduction.
0:01:53 > 0:02:01Listen, to tell the truth,
0:02:01 > 0:02:05I never considered myself a voice to be in the position to be
0:02:05 > 0:02:06considered an adviser of Mr Putin.
0:02:06 > 0:02:10I was doing my business, I was CEO, I was the head
0:02:10 > 0:02:13of the project, that is true, but I never was the adviser,
0:02:13 > 0:02:15to either the Prime Minister or the President of
0:02:15 > 0:02:16the Russian federation.
0:02:16 > 0:02:24As far as your question is concerned, I suppose
0:02:24 > 0:02:29that is the knowledge and I suppose the reference is to the poll
0:02:29 > 0:02:30showing that people
0:02:30 > 0:02:33in Russia believe that his execution of power was in favour
0:02:33 > 0:02:34of development of Russia.
0:02:34 > 0:02:35Interesting that...
0:02:35 > 0:02:39Nobody is above criticism, of course, but...
0:02:39 > 0:02:41Interesting that you point to the polls, of course his poll
0:02:41 > 0:02:44ratings have been outstandingly high
0:02:44 > 0:02:49for some time, 70%, 80%,
0:02:49 > 0:02:52but one also can look at the facts on the ground,
0:02:52 > 0:02:54exercising hard military power in the Middle East,
0:02:54 > 0:02:56and, of course, in neighbouring Ukraine, in ways that
0:02:56 > 0:02:58have isolated Russia, have brought international
0:02:58 > 0:03:02sanctions upon Russia, thanks to its invasion of Crimea.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05We also can talk to an economy which appears stalled,
0:03:05 > 0:03:09stuck in low growth.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12We can also talk about the sense in which Russian economic
0:03:12 > 0:03:19development has in many ways stalled.
0:03:19 > 0:03:25Now that isn't a record that many leaders would find easy to run on.
0:03:25 > 0:03:31Listen, you know, everything can be judged in comparison.
0:03:31 > 0:03:37The president is executing the huge military power,
0:03:37 > 0:03:42and, you know, there is nothing special involving the execution
0:03:42 > 0:03:45of the military power for the Russian president.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48And from the point of view of any questions you ask,
0:03:48 > 0:03:51I am open to discuss anything, but this is my assumption
0:03:51 > 0:03:56for the situation.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58In a sense it's where Russia sits in the world.
0:03:58 > 0:04:01You know personally that the discussion to invade
0:04:01 > 0:04:03and annex Crimea has attracted a great deal of
0:04:03 > 0:04:04international concern.
0:04:04 > 0:04:08And international sanctions.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11And you yourself in 2014 were named as a close confindante
0:04:11 > 0:04:13of Vladimir Putin, who is now subject to American
0:04:13 > 0:04:16economic targeted sanctions.
0:04:16 > 0:04:25Two points.
0:04:25 > 0:04:33Firt point, it were not Russians, and it were not Russian troops,
0:04:33 > 0:04:35who started the coup d'etat in Kiev.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38It were not Russian politicians who were speaking to me,
0:04:38 > 0:04:40it were European politicians and American politicians.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42Can you imagine that here in London anybody from the Russian parliament
0:04:46 > 0:04:50So from this point of view it is very delicate to say how
0:04:50 > 0:04:52what is going on, how it was arranged.
0:04:52 > 0:04:59And that is a tragedy from our perspective,
0:04:59 > 0:05:06I am simple Russian citizen nowadays, but I do a lot of job
0:05:06 > 0:05:07in Dialogue of Civilisation Research Institute.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10You run a think tank with offices in Moscow and Berlin,
0:05:10 > 0:05:14you have thought about the need to have a much greater level
0:05:14 > 0:05:16of understanding between Russia and Europe in particular.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19Europe is in the vanguard of imposing sanctions on Russia
0:05:19 > 0:05:19right now.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22Angela Merkel is probably the world leader who is most
0:05:22 > 0:05:24concerned with sending a clear message to Vladimir Putin
0:05:24 > 0:05:35that his current policies are not acceptable.
0:05:35 > 0:05:40But, she wnats, together with President Sarkozy,
0:05:40 > 0:05:42two first leaders to come to Moscow
0:05:42 > 0:05:48to talk over the situation in Ukraine.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50In Ukraine, we are living through the tragedy
0:05:50 > 0:05:51of the civil war.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54And, you know, that is of course only the dialogue, only
0:05:54 > 0:05:57the understanding, not just sanctions or something like that,
0:05:57 > 0:05:58to improve the situation.
0:05:58 > 0:05:59That is my true belief.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02It's interesting to put this into context, it is not just
0:06:02 > 0:06:06the fact that the Russians have annex Crimea, your air force
0:06:06 > 0:06:09is playing a crucial role propping up Bashar al-Assad in Syria,
0:06:09 > 0:06:12but also, Russia is projecting all sorts of covert cyber -based
0:06:12 > 0:06:15power, and soft power, around the world, sometimes
0:06:15 > 0:06:25through media, sometimes through perhaps less public forums.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28In a way, Vladimir Putin appears to be absolutely determined to play
0:06:28 > 0:06:31a role, whether it be in the US presidential election,
0:06:31 > 0:06:33the French or German elections, politics in Eastern Europe,
0:06:33 > 0:06:41how grand is this man's ambitions?
0:06:41 > 0:06:52Why you did not name, you know, the election in Great Britain?
0:06:52 > 0:06:54the election in Great Britain?
0:06:54 > 0:06:58Why Russian hackers not intervening in these very important elections?
0:06:58 > 0:07:02No person who knows a little bit about information warfare
0:07:02 > 0:07:04or something like that never believed that this huge amount
0:07:04 > 0:07:07of events could be placed and could be started
0:07:07 > 0:07:10just from one source, and this source is Russia.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13This is not...
0:07:13 > 0:07:16Are you denying all of the evidence, not least the absolutely categorical
0:07:16 > 0:07:19statements of the FBI director, as was, James Comey,
0:07:19 > 0:07:25that Russia was responsible for meddling in the US presidential
0:07:25 > 0:07:27election, for hacking those Democratic Party e-mails,
0:07:27 > 0:07:31and because of what happened was thereby a key player in that
0:07:31 > 0:07:32campaign which resulted
0:07:32 > 0:07:33in Donald Trump winning the White House?
0:07:33 > 0:07:40Listen, listen, I did not see any sort of evidence,
0:07:40 > 0:07:42Why should I believe FBI former director,
0:07:42 > 0:07:49that he had obvious evidence?
0:07:49 > 0:07:53Why it was not presented to the general public?
0:07:53 > 0:07:55Listen, I suppose, maybe, it is a little more complex
0:07:55 > 0:07:58than just one side, straightforward decision,
0:07:58 > 0:08:02I suppose there are a lot of very reputable experts in the West
0:08:02 > 0:08:05who are challenging these statements.
0:08:06 > 0:08:08Because sometimes it is much easier to place this responsibility
0:08:08 > 0:08:16on one's own failure on somebody else.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18It's not going well, is it?
0:08:18 > 0:08:21This idea of yours projecting
0:08:21 > 0:08:23a different image of Russia to the West.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26You can argue about the basis for the assumption,
0:08:26 > 0:08:30frankly, in Washington, that Russia was behind the hack
0:08:30 > 0:08:35of the Democratic Party,
0:08:35 > 0:08:38but that is the perception in the United States
0:08:38 > 0:08:40and across the western world, intelligence agencies,
0:08:40 > 0:08:43police forces and the public.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46Same can be said, and I can quote you, Angela Merkel,
0:08:46 > 0:08:49German intelligence chief, saying there is no doubt that Russia
0:08:49 > 0:08:51is intent on meddling in the German election.
0:08:51 > 0:08:57This is how you are perceived.
0:08:57 > 0:09:04Listen, Stephen, it was not Russians who eavesdropped your telephone,
0:09:04 > 0:09:08why was she was not concerned with that?
0:09:08 > 0:09:09It wasn't Russians.
0:09:09 > 0:09:11Again, the development of IT technologies is extreme,
0:09:11 > 0:09:13extreme important, you know, and valuable feature of contemporary
0:09:13 > 0:09:15world but it is not that simple.
0:09:15 > 0:09:16It's backfired.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20Whatever the Russian intent was, and you can argue
0:09:20 > 0:09:23about whether it's right to put it at Russia's door,
0:09:23 > 0:09:33but the fact is, if you were hoping, and it seems you were,
0:09:33 > 0:09:35because there were warm words, a direct quote from you,
0:09:35 > 0:09:38welcoming Donald Trump, saying he was a man to be admired,
0:09:38 > 0:09:41picked himself up twice from being knocked down in business.
0:09:41 > 0:09:41Me?
0:09:41 > 0:09:43Yes, this is a quote from you.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46Trump, you said, is a smart guy, he lost two times everything
0:09:46 > 0:09:48and he raised himself up again.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51He is addressing some internal failings of the American people.
0:09:51 > 0:09:52Where is the word of "admiring"?
0:09:52 > 0:09:53I never said admiring.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56That is a hugely admiring comment, is it not?
0:09:56 > 0:09:57No, no, no.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59The truth is, I never admired Trump,
0:09:59 > 0:10:01even since I was in New York City.
0:10:01 > 0:10:02I did not like the guy.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05But my assumption was don't oversimplify the character
0:10:05 > 0:10:05of this person.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07And the fact of this person.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11The bottom line is, what has come out, about the allegations
0:10:11 > 0:10:16of Russian meddling in the United States,
0:10:16 > 0:10:19through the hacking, the cybercrimes, etc,
0:10:19 > 0:10:22etc, what has come out has made it actually more difficult than one
0:10:22 > 0:10:25could ever have imagined for Donald Trump to have this
0:10:25 > 0:10:30positive relationship with Vladimir Putin.
0:10:30 > 0:10:37What we've seen is the Americans conduct an air strike on
0:10:37 > 0:10:40Assad, which the Russians were very angry about.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43The G-7 meeting, after which the chief economic
0:10:43 > 0:10:50spokesman for Trump said, Russia can forget about us
0:10:50 > 0:10:53advocating a lifting of sanctions, until Russia make specific
0:10:53 > 0:10:54concilliatory moves on the Ukraine.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57Donald Trump is not giving you any thing right now.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59Absolutely correct, and personally, I never said anything to be
0:10:59 > 0:11:02considered an expectation on the part of Donald Trump.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05What again I said, that is a fact, he is elected president,
0:11:05 > 0:11:09you know, he is bound by the system.
0:11:10 > 0:11:14He is not a free man to do whatever he wants.
0:11:15 > 0:11:15Congress, prosecutions, everything.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18But the fact is, he was, during his campaign,
0:11:18 > 0:11:20he was addressing some very essential issues of relations
0:11:20 > 0:11:24with Russia, and he stated, listen, I would go to do something
0:11:24 > 0:11:26to improve those relations, that is only his promise.
0:11:26 > 0:11:40And he did not fulfil this promise.
0:11:40 > 0:11:41Yet.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44I do now want to switch now to Russia's internal affairs,
0:11:44 > 0:11:48and the degree to which when Putin tries to project power,
0:11:48 > 0:11:51for Russia, around the region and the world, he is hampered
0:11:51 > 0:11:53and hindered by the profound
0:11:53 > 0:12:16weakness of the Russian state internally.
0:12:16 > 0:12:18Governance issues, corruption issues, economic backwardness
0:12:18 > 0:12:20issues... Which drag down the Russian state.
0:12:20 > 0:12:20Listen.
0:12:20 > 0:12:23I suppose, in some part, I can follow your statements,
0:12:23 > 0:12:26about changing of the political system, the weakness in the Russian
0:12:26 > 0:12:29economy, and that is correct, but, you know, remember that the history
0:12:29 > 0:12:32of Russia of today is only like, you know, 25 years, 26,
0:12:32 > 0:12:36to be more precise.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39And of course, for such a huge country, it is extremely difficult,
0:12:39 > 0:12:46and I am not an advocate of the regime, I have no right
0:12:46 > 0:12:48to talk on the part of the administration of Putin,
0:12:48 > 0:12:51I am talking as a simple Russian who do know something
0:12:51 > 0:12:52about international politics...
0:12:52 > 0:12:53Or Internal politics.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55Let's talk internal politics.
0:12:55 > 0:13:00When you see the pictures on your TV screen, whether you are in Moscow
0:13:00 > 0:13:01or in Berlin of Alexei Navalny
0:13:02 > 0:13:08trying to organise an anti-corruption demonstration
0:13:09 > 0:13:11across the country, he wants 100,000 cities to be involved,
0:13:11 > 0:13:14arrested before he can leave his own apartment building.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17The people who go on his demonstration are arrested as well,
0:13:17 > 0:13:19impossible for them to voice his strong opinions,
0:13:19 > 0:13:22do you believe that is a sensible way of approaching governance
0:13:22 > 0:13:24in your country, or is it damaging?
0:13:24 > 0:13:32Listen, you know, the answer is simple, whether you like the law
0:13:32 > 0:13:34or not, law should be obeyed.
0:13:34 > 0:13:36That is correct, for Great Britain,
0:13:37 > 0:13:43for the United States of America, for Russia.
0:13:43 > 0:13:49Remember Occupy Wall Street, what happened to those people.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52Remember those protests against Trump.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54But if you know, for example, the authorities
0:13:54 > 0:13:56accepted the possibility of this demonstration, there
0:13:56 > 0:13:57were no accidents here.
0:13:57 > 0:13:59Why on earth somebody should not by the law,
0:13:59 > 0:14:07I don't think there is anybody in the from the law.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10The problem in Russia, dissent is often a matter of,
0:14:10 > 0:14:13if not life and death, then certainly freedom or imprisonment.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15Navalny, I have spoken with him recently,
0:14:16 > 0:14:22he has constantly been harassed by the law.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25Yet again he's facing trumped up charges, he may well be disallowed
0:14:25 > 0:14:28from running, as he wants to, in the presidential
0:14:28 > 0:14:29election in 2018.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32I have been to his offices, they are constantly being raided.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35I have interviewed Gary Kasparov many times, he can no longer live
0:14:35 > 0:14:37in Russia, he says it's not safe for him.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40This is the reality of the Russia that you are defending.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47I cannot say anything about personal feelings for Gary Kasparov,
0:14:47 > 0:14:51for example, but what I can say, I can say, you know,
0:14:51 > 0:14:54he did not say anything about his attempt to be the mayor
0:14:54 > 0:14:55of Moscow, how it happened.
0:14:55 > 0:14:56Who supported him.
0:14:56 > 0:15:02He is a freeman.
0:15:02 > 0:15:04He is flying here, he has meetings with you.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06But, any regime does not like opponents.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09He met me in his office, in Moscow, and office constantly raided
0:15:10 > 0:15:23by the police forces, who appear to believe
0:15:23 > 0:15:26Listen, I don't say it is unacceptable because by the fact
0:15:26 > 0:15:28that it was, you know, the Russian president,
0:15:28 > 0:15:32again, I am not his advocate, I am not suspecting who is promoting
0:15:32 > 0:15:35the idea of fighting corruption, but, I do not know all the facts
0:15:35 > 0:15:36about the office...
0:15:36 > 0:15:38You do know plenty about Alexei Navalny,
0:15:38 > 0:15:40because it was personal between you two, he highlighted
0:15:40 > 0:15:43the extravagant estate that you had purchased outside Moscow,
0:15:43 > 0:15:44for many millions of rubles.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47He showed pictures of it, which I've seen, the elaborate,
0:15:47 > 0:15:49the housing, the outhouses, court, and apparently,
0:15:49 > 0:15:53is it true, there was a special room for all of the furs that
0:15:53 > 0:16:10you were storing inside?
0:16:10 > 0:16:11This is funny story, just invention.
0:16:11 > 0:16:12If you are in Moscow...
0:16:12 > 0:16:14The property was yours, was it not.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16I invite you to this property.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19I invite you to this property to find this small storage
0:16:19 > 0:16:23for the furs, you would not find, but you may find some furs
0:16:23 > 0:16:24from Siberia, etc, etc.
0:16:24 > 0:16:26How much is it worth, that vast mansion?
0:16:26 > 0:16:30How much is it worth?
0:16:30 > 0:16:32I cannot say for sure, but for sure...
0:16:32 > 0:16:34Many millions of US dollars.
0:16:34 > 0:16:36But I was earning yearly, very substantial amounts of money.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39It's interesting that you say that, because in 2014, the government
0:16:39 > 0:16:42demanded all CEOs, bosses of state companies, because to go public
0:16:43 > 0:16:45with their income and assets, you refused for some time,
0:16:45 > 0:16:48and then when you finally exceeded to their request,
0:16:48 > 0:16:51you declare that your income, I believe, was in the range of 61
0:16:51 > 0:16:53to 83,000 US dollars a month.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56No way was that an income that could have bought you the vast
0:16:56 > 0:17:05estate that I'm talking about.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08Listen, listen, I have on my account, in Petra bank,
0:17:08 > 0:17:11all the monies, not all the monies, because I have spent them,
0:17:11 > 0:17:13Berry substantial amount of monies.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16They were my payments, my bonuses, that I was getting as the CEO
0:17:16 > 0:17:17of the state company.
0:17:17 > 0:17:21This is true, the tax authorities know about it and they have it,
0:17:21 > 0:17:22no problem with that.
0:17:22 > 0:17:35And nobody challenges.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38There clearly was a problem, because if we get to the heart
0:17:38 > 0:17:41of it, I have described you as a very close associate
0:17:41 > 0:17:42of Vladimir Putin.
0:17:42 > 0:17:43Which is not quite correct.
0:17:43 > 0:17:47It is, you go back to St Petersburg days and KGB days.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50I know you didn't know him so well in the KGB days.
0:17:50 > 0:17:51And what's wrong with that?
0:17:51 > 0:17:54That is the story of many of his closest associates,
0:17:54 > 0:17:55so it's no surprise.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57No problem.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00but what I'm getting too is this: In 2015 you lost your job
0:18:00 > 0:18:02at the head of state railways.
0:18:02 > 0:18:03I resigned, better to say.
0:18:03 > 0:18:05Well, it's complicated, some in Russia believe
0:18:05 > 0:18:06Vladimir Putin decided...
0:18:06 > 0:18:07Let them believe.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09The reason why it seems you became a problem
0:18:09 > 0:18:12was because it was publicised, and again, I think this might be
0:18:12 > 0:18:16something to do with Alexei Navalny, it became clear that your own son,
0:18:16 > 0:18:17your own son...
0:18:17 > 0:18:19Don't make him a hero, knee is not so powerful
0:18:19 > 0:18:20to make problems.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23Your own son lives in a very expensive house in London,
0:18:23 > 0:18:24and actually took British citizenship...
0:18:25 > 0:18:27What do you mean by very expensive house?
0:18:27 > 0:18:28Worth many millions of English pounds.
0:18:28 > 0:18:29Exactly.
0:18:29 > 0:18:30Do you know the sum?
0:18:30 > 0:18:32I believe it was almost exactly ?5 million.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34That is a very huge sum of money.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38Yes.
0:18:38 > 0:18:38Indeed.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40And it was bought with some credit.
0:18:40 > 0:18:49Is this something very different from the others living here?
0:18:49 > 0:18:52Probably different from the way that most people live,
0:18:52 > 0:18:54but the problem is not about the vast property Empire,
0:18:54 > 0:18:56it is about the British passport.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59Russia today is full of official noise about how the West
0:18:59 > 0:19:02is against Russia, how the West is trying to undermine and destroy
0:19:02 > 0:19:06Russia, and your own son was seen to be taking British citizenship.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09That, in Russia, even for Mr Putin, it seems, put you in a place
0:19:09 > 0:19:19where he did not want to associate with you any more.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23No, I never made any secrets that my son was living here.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26And, you know, because of the special ruling here and the law,
0:19:26 > 0:19:27he obtained passport, and properly informed
0:19:28 > 0:19:29the authorities about that.
0:19:29 > 0:19:31And you know, not correct, saying that all Russians are aware
0:19:32 > 0:19:35of that, "the bad West is coming to hurt Russia", etc.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Isn't that the message that they get from the Kremlin?
0:19:37 > 0:19:39No, I don't think so.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42And this is not true that Russians are so afraid of the West.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45But, what my point is, again, we cannot understand each other,
0:19:45 > 0:19:48we can see the history differently, but the only way to overcome
0:19:48 > 0:19:50differences, that is to talk.
0:19:50 > 0:19:52On this question of economic governance and corruption,
0:19:52 > 0:19:54I can cite you Transparency International report which put
0:19:54 > 0:19:57Russia so far down the league table of corruption that Malawi,
0:19:57 > 0:20:00Sierra Leone, these are countries that are actually less corrupt,
0:20:00 > 0:20:02according to them, than Russia is today.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04The Heritage Foundation saying that private sector in Russia
0:20:04 > 0:20:07is so constrained by the encroachment of the state
0:20:07 > 0:20:10and the failure to defend the rule of law that foreign direct
0:20:10 > 0:20:13investment, for example, is a huge risk in Russia today.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15All of these different ways in which Putin's Russia
0:20:15 > 0:20:34is failing its people.
0:20:34 > 0:20:36Listen, again, you know, we can name "Putin's Russia"
0:20:36 > 0:20:40is a country with the Duma, with the Senate, with the president.
0:20:40 > 0:20:57We are a presidential republic.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00Let's be clear, what really happens in Russian today is Vladimir Putin
0:21:00 > 0:21:03and his associates in the Kremlin and what they say and do.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05I don't think so, I don't think so.
0:21:05 > 0:21:06Really?
0:21:06 > 0:21:23Yes, and why, I can explain you.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26If he is the only ruler of the country, then I suppose
0:21:26 > 0:21:29it is not just possible for one person to control huge territory,
0:21:29 > 0:21:31huge quantity of the people.
0:21:31 > 0:21:32All different aspects.
0:21:32 > 0:21:3970% of GDP, of revenues, the proportion of GDP,
0:21:39 > 0:21:4070% come from state owned enterprises.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43That gives you a sense, an indication, of the way
0:21:43 > 0:21:44Russia is run.
0:21:44 > 0:21:47This is correct, that is one of the setbacks of the structure
0:21:47 > 0:21:48of the Russian economy.
0:21:48 > 0:21:56But on the other hand, what we have, we are trying to exploit.
0:21:56 > 0:21:56Yes, oil, gas.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59But, you know, recently, I just read the draft
0:21:59 > 0:22:02of the new legislation in the United States of America,
0:22:02 > 0:22:04what they are to prevent the construction, stating,
0:22:04 > 0:22:05we should impose sanctions on Russia.
0:22:05 > 0:22:06For what reason?
0:22:06 > 0:22:09What is wrong about trade, what is wrong about trade and oil?
0:22:09 > 0:22:11I don't think anything is wrong.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14About corruption, sometimes, yes, we witnessed the facts of this
0:22:14 > 0:22:15kind of corruption.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17But sometimes, to me, to myself, you know,
0:22:17 > 0:22:19sometimes, that is kind of the stories to be
0:22:19 > 0:22:20invented and presented.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23Listen, we have huge country, a lot of people, people
0:22:23 > 0:22:25who are creating new jobs, people creating new businesses,
0:22:25 > 0:22:28people creating new ports, new railways, by the way!
0:22:28 > 0:22:29All of them, corrupt?
0:22:29 > 0:22:55It is funny, this is not true.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58A final point before we finished, I wonder whether you believe that
0:22:58 > 0:23:01Putinism the way that Vladimir Putin has governed and created
0:23:01 > 0:23:04a particular form of governance in Russia, will that outlast
0:23:04 > 0:23:04the man himself?
0:23:05 > 0:23:07Or, do you believe that Russia will fundamentally change when Putin
0:23:07 > 0:23:21leaves the Kremlin?
0:23:21 > 0:23:25I suppose this is not a question of leaving one person in the Kremlin
0:23:25 > 0:23:28or not, it is a fundamental question of the titanic changes we observe
0:23:28 > 0:23:29in the world.
0:23:29 > 0:23:30Russia is not excluded.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33Today I've read an article in the latest issue
0:23:33 > 0:23:35of the Economist, which stated, the end of neoliberalism consensus.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39So, you know, that is true, to say that Russia is developing,
0:23:39 > 0:23:40the world is developing.
0:23:40 > 0:23:42And the challenges should occur for sure, but those challenges
0:23:42 > 0:23:56should not impose from the outside.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59Are you saying you believe in the future Russia will not look
0:23:59 > 0:24:03more like the West but maybe the West will look more like Russia?
0:24:03 > 0:24:04Congregation, correct.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07It is not my turn to be invented, that is the long-standing theory
0:24:07 > 0:24:09of congregation between different systems.
0:24:09 > 0:24:10Interesting idea, interesting words.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13Vladimir Yakunin, thank you so much for being on our show.
0:24:13 > 0:24:45Thank you very much.
0:24:45 > 0:24:49Good morning.
0:24:49 > 0:24:54It was a hot, dry and sunny weekend for many of us.