:00:00. > :00:13.Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:14. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. When it comes to populist or
:00:21. > :00:24.text delivered with menace, no one does it quite like Rodrigo Duterte,
:00:25. > :00:32.the elected president of the Philippines. Since he came to power,
:00:33. > :00:36.around 7000 people have been killed. Human rights groups are aghast that
:00:37. > :00:40.the majority of Filipinos seem to like his iron fist. My guest is one
:00:41. > :00:47.of the President's most fears critics, Senator Antonio Trillanes.
:00:48. > :01:20.Is President Duterte caretaking the region in a new direction? Antonio
:01:21. > :01:25.Trillanes in Manila, welcome to HARDtalk. Hello, Stephen. Thank you
:01:26. > :01:30.very much for inviting me. We speak at a difficult time for your
:01:31. > :01:35.country. In Mindanao in the south of the Philippines that you have a
:01:36. > :01:42.national emergency with a town that for weeks has faced a siege because
:01:43. > :01:49.it has been, in essence, taken over by jihadist gunman. The president
:01:50. > :01:55.says this is a national emergency and it is time for the country to
:01:56. > :01:59.unify. Do you agree? I agree that what is happening in Marawi is a
:02:00. > :02:06.national crisis and something that we should deal with decisively. I
:02:07. > :02:10.feel that the armed forces, historically, have faced more
:02:11. > :02:16.difficult challenges before and they can overcome this challenge once
:02:17. > :02:26.again and I have no doubt that the armed Forces of the Philippines will
:02:27. > :02:31.subdue the Maute group. A few days ago, the Finance Minister made it
:02:32. > :02:37.clear point of associating the Maute, associating them with drug
:02:38. > :02:41.crime. He said there is no doubt that much of the money they make and
:02:42. > :02:45.the way they operate comes from their involvement in organised drug
:02:46. > :02:54.trafficking. Do you agree with that? That is probably the case that the
:02:55. > :03:00.question is, for the past year that they unleashed this deadly war on
:03:01. > :03:07.drugs, how come they did not touch these suspected drug lords who are
:03:08. > :03:12.supporting Maute? The Finance Minister said it is time for the
:03:13. > :03:15.country to support a president who wants to see a Philippines where
:03:16. > :03:22.obedience to the law is not optional. He has imposed martial law
:03:23. > :03:27.in the area around Marawi and there is talk he may extend the area under
:03:28. > :03:34.martial law. You have called this a national crisis. I wonder if you
:03:35. > :03:42.support him at this time of crisis? We support the claim that what is
:03:43. > :03:48.happening in Marawi is a national crisis in terms of the ridge of the
:03:49. > :03:54.Maute um they can wreck havoc in the country in terms of activities that
:03:55. > :04:01.may be deadly to the Filipino public. In addressing this threat of
:04:02. > :04:08.terrorism, martial law is not the cure. Because it will affect the way
:04:09. > :04:16.of life of the Filipino and at the same time it will affect negatively
:04:17. > :04:21.the economy of our country. My prescription was to enhance the
:04:22. > :04:28.capability of intelligence community in our law enforcement agencies so
:04:29. > :04:34.that we can accurately pinpoint the terrorist cells without affecting
:04:35. > :04:41.the way of life of the public. Isn't the truth that the Filipino public
:04:42. > :04:45.elected Rodrigo Duterte to the presidency because they wanted a
:04:46. > :04:52.tough guy who could impose order on the Philippines. If one looks back
:04:53. > :05:00.at the situation where he took over, that Philippine drug enforcement
:05:01. > :05:04.agency stated last year that 92% of districts in Manila, for example,
:05:05. > :05:11.were affected by drugs. The overwhelming drug of choice being
:05:12. > :05:15.crystal meth. Your country was in a parlous state and drugs crime was at
:05:16. > :05:22.the centre of it and that is we do Jetset was voted in, to deal with
:05:23. > :05:35.it. -- that is why Rodrigo Duterte was voted in. 98% of the districts
:05:36. > :05:45.in Manila but in the entire country, only 27% of the districts are
:05:46. > :05:52.influenced by the use of drugs. For National statistics, we only have
:05:53. > :05:58.1.8% of the population that has used illegal drugs. Most of it marijuana,
:05:59. > :06:05.compared to the global average of 5% of the population. In effect, in
:06:06. > :06:10.fact our drug problem is not as bad as it seems. We agree that it should
:06:11. > :06:14.be addressed but it is not the primary or only problem in our
:06:15. > :06:22.country. Are you a Democrat was to mark. And yes. I am from the
:06:23. > :06:30.nationalist party... I meant in terms of commitment to democracy. It
:06:31. > :06:32.seems to me fairly clearly that Rodrigo Duterte was straightforward
:06:33. > :06:37.with the public. His platform was quite clear. I will give you one
:06:38. > :06:41.quote from his campaign. He said forget the laws on human right is.
:06:42. > :06:50.If I make it to the presidential palace um I will do what I did as
:06:51. > :06:54.mayor. You do nothings, drug pushers and hold-up men had better get out
:06:55. > :07:00.because I will kill you. I will dump you into Manila Bay and I will
:07:01. > :07:05.fatten the fish with your body is. That was his platform and he won a
:07:06. > :07:11.clear victory. During the campaign the public just thought that that
:07:12. > :07:18.was just rhetoric to make the campaign speech more dramatic. Were
:07:19. > :07:24.set of laws. It does not mean that he said that during campaign and he
:07:25. > :07:29.was voted into office does the same, it does not give him licence to kill
:07:30. > :07:33.our own people. He should still be made accountable for his actions
:07:34. > :07:42.outside the law. Do you think is war on drugs is working? Definitely not.
:07:43. > :07:45.As I mentioned, only the poor people and suspect did users and pushers
:07:46. > :07:51.are being killed. The running total of list would be over 9000 already.
:07:52. > :08:00.He has yet to touch the big-time drug lords who are already mentioned
:08:01. > :08:05.in the list of law enforcement agencies. It is not easy to judge
:08:06. > :08:09.but looking at comments made by people in Manila to news agencies,
:08:10. > :08:14.they say things like the streets safer now. Here and the Philippines
:08:15. > :08:19.we needed a ruler with an iron fist. These are quotes from the general
:08:20. > :08:24.public. That seems to be the general mood, that ratings for Rodrigo
:08:25. > :08:27.Duterte remain high with a 70 5% approval rating. I wonder whether
:08:28. > :08:34.your comments, constantly negative, are out of tune with ordinary
:08:35. > :08:40.Filipino opinion? The numbers that you mention are the latest numbers
:08:41. > :08:47.from back in March. But if you look at where those numbers were when he
:08:48. > :08:52.assumed office, it went as high as 92%. In less than one year it
:08:53. > :09:02.dropped by 17 percentage points. Believe me, Senator... If a Western
:09:03. > :09:07.politician had a 75% approval rating, they would regard that as
:09:08. > :09:11.the best day of their life. The bulk of the Filipino public are not
:09:12. > :09:21.really aware of what is happening on the ground. They encounter the
:09:22. > :09:26.propaganda machine of the administration is effective and the
:09:27. > :09:31.bulk of the Filipino public are living day-to-day and they do not
:09:32. > :09:37.really get to know the magnitude of the damage that Rodrigo Duterte has
:09:38. > :09:43.done that it is why historically in the Philippines, the popularity
:09:44. > :09:50.ratings go down as the information is spread to the public. I believe
:09:51. > :09:56.the numbers will continue to drop as they know more and more about the
:09:57. > :09:59.real situation. Talking about the real situation, you personally
:10:00. > :10:06.seemed very committed to trying to bring legal action against President
:10:07. > :10:14.Duterte and for his past actions, particularly going back to his
:10:15. > :10:21.long-time as mere of Davao in Mindanao. Are you still offering
:10:22. > :10:31.your help to an individual who works in the so-called death squads that
:10:32. > :10:36.were operated in Davao during the time of the now president's running
:10:37. > :10:40.of the city. There is some confusion about whether you personally have
:10:41. > :10:49.intervened to safeguard Batman. What is the situation? I assisted him
:10:50. > :10:54.when he appeared in the Senate. We provided security for him while he
:10:55. > :11:02.was there, while he was testifying. But when the State filed cases
:11:03. > :11:06.against him and now he is technically a fugitive, I personally
:11:07. > :11:15.do not know his whereabouts. We already have a witness that will
:11:16. > :11:19.testify. You made great play of his testimony and we should remember it
:11:20. > :11:26.was very dramatic. Akin April he testified that he heard Rodrigo
:11:27. > :11:32.Duterte say... And he was talking of drugs criminal suspects... Throw
:11:33. > :11:38.them in the ocean or the quarry. Make sure there are no traces of the
:11:39. > :11:42.body. There is one particular story where he claimed that Rodrigo
:11:43. > :11:45.Duterte had signed off on the murder of the pregnant wife and
:11:46. > :11:52.four-year-old child of one particular drug crime suspect. Do
:11:53. > :11:58.you really believe this test are many and do you believe that adds up
:11:59. > :12:01.to something that should lead to legal action against Rodrigo
:12:02. > :12:07.Duterte, now that he is president? Most definitely. I believe his
:12:08. > :12:10.testimony and even the State leaves him enough that they used the
:12:11. > :12:17.testimony in the Senate to file cases against him. Perhaps it is in
:12:18. > :12:23.the witness's interests now to blame Rodrigo Duterte said now for actions
:12:24. > :12:26.he himself took. The man is a self-confessed murderer many times
:12:27. > :12:35.over. It seems odd to me that you would put so much faith in a self
:12:36. > :12:38.acknowledged massmurderer. The testimony that pinned Batman down
:12:39. > :12:43.was about the murder of a journalist in the Philippians. He has no
:12:44. > :12:49.interest whatsoever in the journalist, even in his testimony he
:12:50. > :12:55.was just part of the planners. He was not even the key man in that
:12:56. > :13:04.murder. And the whole country sought access to many and it is not only my
:13:05. > :13:08.own judgement that we believe, a great number of people believe him
:13:09. > :13:14.as well. This is not just about the law, it is about politics. Rodrigo
:13:15. > :13:18.Duterte has said many different things at many different times and
:13:19. > :13:22.one called compare him in that way in which he is difficult to pin down
:13:23. > :13:26.to, you know, other prominent politicians of our time to use
:13:27. > :13:31.Twitter to send different messages at different times. The point about
:13:32. > :13:39.Rodrigo Duterte is that in May 2015, for example, he said "Am I the death
:13:40. > :13:43.squad? It is true. That is true." He has put his own record in front of
:13:44. > :13:48.the Filipino public, even to the point of this disgusting
:13:49. > :13:51.associations with does squad in the Filipino public decided this was the
:13:52. > :13:55.man to clean up the country. In political terms it seems to me you
:13:56. > :14:00.are bashing your head against a brick wall. I am not about to give
:14:01. > :14:10.up on this, even on the Filipino. It will take some time because the
:14:11. > :14:14.propaganda of the presidential administration is getting in the way
:14:15. > :14:19.of the flow of truth to the public. It will take some time but his
:14:20. > :14:22.numbers continue to drop and I am quite confident that towards the end
:14:23. > :14:32.his numbers will be way below I asked the earlier if you were a
:14:33. > :14:41.Democrat and you feel you are. Let's look at your track record. You twice
:14:42. > :14:47.tried to mount coups against an elected Filipino president, in that
:14:48. > :14:53.case it was back in 2003 you had an abortive coup attempt which had,
:14:54. > :14:57.well, let's face it, let's face it, only a day, and even more
:14:58. > :15:04.pathetically you made another attempt to get her out in 2007 and
:15:05. > :15:08.you ended up in prison for the best part or seven years. Are you
:15:09. > :15:12.thinking that a coup is a legitimate response again to the Philippine's
:15:13. > :15:20.current political situation? Definitely not. I believe we have
:15:21. > :15:28.enough remedies for a problem like Duterte. Let me go back to that
:15:29. > :15:35.premise, Gloria Macapagal Arroyo assumed power back in 2001 through a
:15:36. > :15:38.coup. They tried to cover it up with some semblance of constitutionality
:15:39. > :15:46.but we know for a fact that she assumed power, she assumed office
:15:47. > :15:53.via a coup. Now, in Duterte's case, we have, as I mentioned, legal
:15:54. > :16:01.remedies within the Constitution and even part of the international laws,
:16:02. > :16:08.like the ICC, that we can resort to to resolve or rectify this anomaly
:16:09. > :16:14.that is Duterte. OK, so, you say no coup on this occasion will use the
:16:15. > :16:19.law, you have been involved in the filing of an infringement complaint,
:16:20. > :16:22.that was rejected by the justice committee at the House of
:16:23. > :16:26.Representatives, so it appears to be going nowhere, and you have been
:16:27. > :16:29.involved in the courts have the International Criminal Court in the
:16:30. > :16:34.Hague examine whether Mr Duterte has crimes against humanity. There is
:16:35. > :16:40.absolutely no indication I can see that the ICC is prepared to pick up
:16:41. > :16:44.the case, so I don't know where your faith in the law, national and
:16:45. > :16:51.international, is taking you. I am quite confident that the ICC would
:16:52. > :17:01.take up the case because it falls right at the centre of the essence
:17:02. > :17:05.of the ICC and probably in a few months we will see some
:17:06. > :17:12.developments. Now, as far as the impeachment is concerned, next year
:17:13. > :17:16.we can also again file an impeachment case against Mr Duterte
:17:17. > :17:25.if we still have a democracy by then. I believe Duterte at some
:17:26. > :17:30.point will install a revolutionary government via martial law because
:17:31. > :17:34.that's the only way... That is the only kind of governance that he
:17:35. > :17:40.knows. As you mentioned, he ruled like a tyrant, like a whimsical
:17:41. > :17:45.king, so that's the world that he lives in. That's why he can't deal
:17:46. > :17:50.with active members of the opposition. He cannot deal with the
:17:51. > :17:56.objective media, both local and foreign media. Do you feel safe, Mr
:17:57. > :18:02.Trillanes, saying these things, given what you say about Mr
:18:03. > :18:07.Duterte's style and character? Well, there are things that one must do as
:18:08. > :18:11.a public servant and this is not the first time that I went up against a
:18:12. > :18:18.sitting president, a sitting vice president and a very powerful Senate
:18:19. > :18:22.President, so I believe I am just being consistent regardless of the
:18:23. > :18:28.dangers that I could probably face a. Well, yeah, you spent seven years
:18:29. > :18:37.in prison. Are you thinking you might spend a view more years in
:18:38. > :18:41.prison before long? Probably -- Arroyo. Duterte has been trying to
:18:42. > :18:44.fabricate cases against me but so far nothing has worked. You are
:18:45. > :18:50.talking to me from Manila and there is no doubt that in some ways
:18:51. > :18:54.Duterte represents a movement in the Philippines to change the way
:18:55. > :18:58.politics works. He has talked about Imperial Manila. He says the country
:18:59. > :19:02.has never been governed by people who really have the best interests
:19:03. > :19:06.of the poor and the disadvantaged at heart and, in particular, he says
:19:07. > :19:10.the country has never been governed before by someone from Minder now
:19:11. > :19:16.who is not obsessed with looking after the elite and the oligarchs
:19:17. > :19:22.based in Manila. He has a point, doesn't he? He is committed to a
:19:23. > :19:26.radical poverty elimination programme which will raise the
:19:27. > :19:29.poorest Filipinos, particularly in the neglected areas in the south of
:19:30. > :19:37.the country -- Mindanao. And that appeals to many people. That is the
:19:38. > :19:40.campaign rhetoric but one year from his collection into office up to
:19:41. > :19:46.this point he has yet to actually come up with an economic programme
:19:47. > :19:50.for the poor. And, in fact, he has been killing them. So he can never
:19:51. > :19:56.say that he feels for them and that he wants them to succeed. And even
:19:57. > :20:01.Duterte himself admits that he doesn't know anything about the
:20:02. > :20:08.economy and his economic managers have come up with this ambitious
:20:09. > :20:14.economic programme that is hinged on a tax reform programme that is
:20:15. > :20:21.basically inflationary and therefore anti- poor. So, more or less, we
:20:22. > :20:26.know the situation here in the Philippines, that the tide is
:20:27. > :20:31.changing. And I feel it. Even though I am very vocal against Duterte, I
:20:32. > :20:34.don't even fear for my safety as far as the ordinary Filipinos are
:20:35. > :20:39.concerned. A lot of them are starting to agree with what we have
:20:40. > :20:44.been saying. OK, but look, the country is growing at pretty much 7%
:20:45. > :20:48.a year, which in the west would be regarded as a wonderful achievement.
:20:49. > :20:55.The World Bank says it expects that growth curve to continue at least
:20:56. > :20:58.through 2019. Mr Duterte's done deals with Chinese investors which
:20:59. > :21:02.suggests $15 billion worth of Chinese investment is coming into
:21:03. > :21:06.your country. He has been crowing about the way in which, by
:21:07. > :21:11.realigning the Philippines in terms of its diplomacy and outreach, it is
:21:12. > :21:16.now great friends with China, with Russia and still has, of course, the
:21:17. > :21:23.security relationship with the United States. In a way, Duterte -
:21:24. > :21:29.ism appears to be working for the Philippines. Well, on paper, as I
:21:30. > :21:37.mentioned, it may appear so. But let me just talk about the much hyped 15
:21:38. > :21:45.billion or 24 billion deal with China. It is basically official
:21:46. > :21:50.development assistance. It is a loan that is again hinged on the passage
:21:51. > :21:54.of the tax reform plan, the tax reform Bill that the economic
:21:55. > :22:01.managers of Duterte are pushing. We in the Senate do not have any plan
:22:02. > :22:06.of passing it because it is, again, inflationary and anti- poor. So we
:22:07. > :22:13.cannot afford to give additional burden to the public and the public
:22:14. > :22:19.appreciates that. Yeah, what you didn't address was my point about
:22:20. > :22:23.these economic successes. You have a 7% growth rate which is going to
:22:24. > :22:27.continue. Just as a final point, I put it to you that for all of your
:22:28. > :22:32.fears of what Duterte mean for the Philippines, right now, viewed by
:22:33. > :22:39.many ordinary Filipinos, this guy is doing a decent job. Well, that will
:22:40. > :22:43.change. As I mentioned, once more information will reach the ordinary
:22:44. > :22:47.Filipinos, they will change that impression about Duterte. I have
:22:48. > :22:57.seen it before. It may take a little while but it does happen. Now,
:22:58. > :23:02.regarding the 7% GDP, well, it is happening despite Duterte. It is
:23:03. > :23:08.fuelled mostly by the remittances from overseas Filipino workers. That
:23:09. > :23:14.has been the case all these years, at least the last decade. So he
:23:15. > :23:21.cannot solely take credit for anything at this point in time. And,
:23:22. > :23:27.in fact, he promised to restore law and order but the Philippines is now
:23:28. > :23:32.more chaotic today than when he first entered into office. That is a
:23:33. > :23:34.fact. OK, we have to end there. At a thank you very much, Antonio
:23:35. > :24:02.Trillanes, for joining me from Manila. Thank you.
:24:03. > :24:08.As has been the case in recent days, Tuesday brought 30 degrees widely
:24:09. > :24:13.across the southern half of the British Isles and as they say