:00:00. > :00:11.And now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:12. > :00:23.Welcome to HARDtalk. Jacob Zuma's grip on power in south Africa is
:00:24. > :00:27.listening. He will relinquish leadership of the ANC at the end of
:00:28. > :00:32.year. And whether he will complete this as south Africa's president is
:00:33. > :00:38.uncertain, as allegations of corruption pile up around this
:00:39. > :00:42.government. My guess to day it is Thuli Madonsela, south Africa's
:00:43. > :00:47.public protector until late last year. She exposed a web of wiring
:00:48. > :00:54.connections between the state and big business interests. But are her
:00:55. > :01:19.concerns about to be buried? -- worrying. -- Public Protector.
:01:20. > :01:27.Thuli Madonsela, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for being here
:01:28. > :01:35.Stephen. It is such a non-. I think we have to begin with that explicit
:01:36. > :01:45.report that you wrote and published before leaving the office of Public
:01:46. > :01:51.Protector last year. -- such an honour. The idea was that big
:01:52. > :01:58.business individuals had undue influence on the government. You
:01:59. > :02:02.wanted a fully fledged enquiry to be set up within 30 days of your
:02:03. > :02:06.report's publication. Seven months later, that has not happened. How do
:02:07. > :02:16.you feel about that? I am concerned that the Commissioner for the
:02:17. > :02:24.enquiry has not been appointed. The concern is the uncertainty and the
:02:25. > :02:29.suspicions have created a certain level of this functionality within
:02:30. > :02:35.the executive. You saw some dismissals, including the
:02:36. > :02:41.whistleblower. -- disfunctionality. There is also a trust deficit at the
:02:42. > :02:47.level of the public. Because of that, I would rather that the
:02:48. > :02:52.pressure for the inquiry would have been appointed immediately. You give
:02:53. > :02:58.some interesting information there. Do you make a direct link between
:02:59. > :03:02.the firing of the Deputy fine and Minister and this involvement in one
:03:03. > :03:07.of your key allegations, and that is that there was an effort to persuade
:03:08. > :03:14.him to take the finance minister's job with the offer of a huge amount
:03:15. > :03:21.of money as a sweetener, if he did certain things on taking the job. He
:03:22. > :03:26.refused to take the job, he says on that basis. -- Deputy Finance
:03:27. > :03:31.Minister. He was then fired in March 2017. You see that his firing was
:03:32. > :03:38.directly linked? I am saying it is one of the factors. Because the
:03:39. > :03:44.allegation, apart from that discredited intelligence report, was
:03:45. > :03:50.that the relationship had been soured, or the relationship was
:03:51. > :03:53.dysfunctional. And because of that, there is a linkage between the
:03:54. > :04:03.unhealthy relationship and what happened. The centre of this is
:04:04. > :04:06.allegations concerning two brothers, the Gupta brothers, who have denied
:04:07. > :04:15.the allegations in your state of capture report. One way in Dolby
:04:16. > :04:21.Deputy Finance Minister, others involved some of their businesses in
:04:22. > :04:26.the energy sector. There were a raft of suggestions that you believed
:04:27. > :04:31.that the Guptas exercise massive and undue influence over Jacob Zuma's
:04:32. > :04:36.government. Is it still your contention today? All I stated was
:04:37. > :04:57.that there was evidence and a -- and it is a case to be answered.
:04:58. > :05:02.With respect, you would not have presented your report unless you
:05:03. > :05:08.believed there was a degree of credibility in the allegations. --
:05:09. > :05:13.and there is a case will stop I believe that there was a degree of
:05:14. > :05:25.credibility nudges in the allegations but any evidence that I
:05:26. > :05:30.uncovered. In the report, we include evidence of AJ Gupta, who spoke
:05:31. > :05:35.about his relationship --. We also include cellphone evidence that puts
:05:36. > :05:45.people in the Gupta compound several times and in proximity to their
:05:46. > :05:56.contentious affairs. One thing that is concerning is the allegation
:05:57. > :06:01.concerning the Guptas and their influence, both white Guptas and by
:06:02. > :06:07.the person they spoke to, in the end, when we said today? All the key
:06:08. > :06:11.players in a report absolutely deny the truth of undue influence, and
:06:12. > :06:16.without a commission of enquiry, led by an independent judge, as you
:06:17. > :06:22.wanted, and Caesar is no way of getting to the truth. 100%. Only a
:06:23. > :06:33.commission of enquiry will settle this. And also free the people that
:06:34. > :06:38.feel that they are unjustly accused. -- and it seems there is no way of
:06:39. > :06:47.getting to be true. Jacob Zuma says that you overstepped your powers,
:06:48. > :06:52.your constitutional powers,, as it was until last year, when you said
:06:53. > :06:57.the person who must appoint this independent authority at the head of
:06:58. > :07:02.the commission must be appointed by the chief justice of South Africa.
:07:03. > :07:08.-- getting to the truth. Jacob Zuma's said that that is a
:07:09. > :07:14.presidential prerogative, and that you undermined those powers. The
:07:15. > :07:23.president is wrong that I overstep my powers. I said to the judge that
:07:24. > :07:27.they should be selected independently. I would not be used
:07:28. > :07:35.to bring powers if you are doing nothing. -- usurping. This had a
:07:36. > :07:39.potential to poison the waters. But if this was true, then a lot of
:07:40. > :07:44.damage was being done. He did nothing. If I am a police officer
:07:45. > :07:49.and I say to do your job, I am not usurping your powers, I am
:07:50. > :07:54.exercising your powers, your stock is still your job. If your job is to
:07:55. > :07:58.drive off a parking lot, the police officer continue to do so, and that
:07:59. > :08:02.is not usurping it. Would you make of the way that Jacob Zuma has
:08:03. > :08:05.hampered your report and its fallout in the seven months since you
:08:06. > :08:19.publish it? I think it has been honoured. Odds? -- odd. I think it
:08:20. > :08:29.has been very odd. It is detrimental to Jacob Zuma, to government, and to
:08:30. > :08:35.his son who is in business with the Guptas. And also to the Guptas. --
:08:36. > :08:39.since you published. If the evidence we have is incorrect, in that the
:08:40. > :08:43.allegations are not true, it is best that this matter be investigated
:08:44. > :08:56.expeditiously and their names cleared. Do you have faith that your
:08:57. > :09:01.successor will fully and completely pursue the state of capture report
:09:02. > :09:09.and a thorough investigation of it? I have no reason to doubt my
:09:10. > :09:15.successor, and certainly, also, it would be rude of me to comment about
:09:16. > :09:22.my successor, and my predecessors never commented. I did, however,
:09:23. > :09:28.make a binding decision that the next phase of the state capture
:09:29. > :09:34.investigation be done by a judicial commission of enquiry. Because of
:09:35. > :09:40.the nature of the allegations and the need for the public to be
:09:41. > :09:44.satisfied that no stone was left unturned. I don't think that any
:09:45. > :09:53.APEC process at this stage would address the trust deficit amongst
:09:54. > :09:59.ordinary people. -- any part of the process. There are some things about
:10:00. > :10:03.your successor that suggest that you and she do not see things in the
:10:04. > :10:07.same way. For example, she seemed determined to investigate your
:10:08. > :10:10.release of audiotapes of one conversation you had with Jacob
:10:11. > :10:15.Zuma. She seemed to think was unacceptable that release those
:10:16. > :10:19.audiotapes, which, perhaps, to some South Africans, means that she is
:10:20. > :10:25.more minded to view this from the interests of Jacob Zuma. Also, she
:10:26. > :10:29.seems to have pursued an allegation against you that sometime ago your
:10:30. > :10:33.son was involved in an accident, when he was driving a car that was
:10:34. > :10:37.state property, which you did not offer compensation for, which I
:10:38. > :10:41.know, it you have since then that a statement of regret about. It seems
:10:42. > :10:48.to me that you and your successor are at odds. She has made her
:10:49. > :10:55.choices and I am not there to judge. History will judge the two of us.
:10:56. > :11:02.Regarding my son, my concern was that she prejudged it. After all the
:11:03. > :11:06.hullabaloo and the dragging of my name in the mud, she then came back
:11:07. > :11:12.and said she is going to investigate. I'm still waiting for
:11:13. > :11:16.the outcome of that. But in the meantime, avoiding all of this
:11:17. > :11:20.noise, I decided to pay... Because the issue was not that my son did
:11:21. > :11:25.not drive the car and did not cause the accident. The issue was did I do
:11:26. > :11:30.anything wrong? And I thought it was improper for me to be judged to have
:11:31. > :11:34.done anything wrong when the rules... That the integrity of your
:11:35. > :11:43.position that you, and now she, in the rule, -- any role, is to be
:11:44. > :11:49.white on white. I wonder if South Africa is now have a bit of a seed
:11:50. > :11:57.of questions about your integrity. I don't know what many South Africans
:11:58. > :12:02.think. I just know that I have never done anything to break the law. And
:12:03. > :12:06.on this one, that is why spoke out, to make sure it was clear that I
:12:07. > :12:11.never did anything wrong. I stuck by the principles. My son, under my
:12:12. > :12:16.guidance, had only use the car when I was there, because in terms of the
:12:17. > :12:21.rules, I was allowed to have anybody driving. And on that night, it was
:12:22. > :12:25.clear to everybody that I was not involved. We tried to get the car at
:12:26. > :12:29.5am in the morning with my protectors, and the car was not
:12:30. > :12:33.there. For them to suggest that there was anything I could have done
:12:34. > :12:36.to prevent that, or there was anything that they did to cause
:12:37. > :12:40.that, was improper. And at that stage, I thought it sounded
:12:41. > :12:44.militias. Let's get back to Jacob Zuma. Because in the end, he is at
:12:45. > :12:50.the heart of this question of government. -- malicious. There is a
:12:51. > :12:56.Sanskrit has become personal between you and him. Going all the way back
:12:57. > :13:00.to your investigation of the estate scandal, the degree to which you
:13:01. > :13:04.revealed that he had spent an awful lot of money in ways that were
:13:05. > :13:09.nothing to do with security, but, it seems, to do with personal enjoyment
:13:10. > :13:13.of his property. In the end, he had to be that a huge amount of money, I
:13:14. > :13:17.think more than half a million US dollars worth of improvements, he
:13:18. > :13:23.had to pay back. Do you think that he now regards your relationship
:13:24. > :13:27.with him as personally toxic? He has not said that in me. I recall that
:13:28. > :13:31.before the constitutional court decided that my powers were binding,
:13:32. > :13:36.and that there was nothing wrong with the decisions I had made, I met
:13:37. > :13:43.with him on a Friday, we had a cordial relationship or meeting, he
:13:44. > :13:47.and his son, and we discuss the matter. And he said he was wrongly
:13:48. > :13:51.advised by lawyers. He did not give me a sense be responsible for what
:13:52. > :13:56.happened. Because at that stage, he was now clear that he had a duty to
:13:57. > :14:00.have stopped this. Because he had an opportunity after the media raise
:14:01. > :14:05.the alarm to stop it. It also, secondly, none of us has to benefit
:14:06. > :14:11.from government at the expense of taxpayers currently under what we
:14:12. > :14:16.are entitled to under the law. You think he is fit to govern South
:14:17. > :14:25.Africa, today? That is not permitted determined. You are entitled to your
:14:26. > :14:29.opinion as a South African citizen. I would have an opinion it was just
:14:30. > :14:36.jealous, but as a former public provider, and as you say, this may
:14:37. > :14:41.be seen by some as personal, I do not express a view. -- protector. I
:14:42. > :14:45.do know that Jacob Zuma has done the best he could. It is up to South
:14:46. > :14:48.Africans in the future when they choose leaders to decide who can
:14:49. > :15:00.operate in these complex conditions. As a result of the work you did
:15:01. > :15:08.investigating the allegations of these results, you received threats,
:15:09. > :15:12.intimidation, people were standing outside your house, chanting against
:15:13. > :15:22.you. I believe that one point you were accused of working for the CIA.
:15:23. > :15:30.I gather that you also faced death Threats. What is your feeling about
:15:31. > :15:35.the comfort you have in your own country today, the security you
:15:36. > :15:46.have? I feel fairly secure, but I am concerned, because people who once
:15:47. > :15:50.called me a comrade, they have now said things against me. It was not
:15:51. > :15:53.nice. But that is the least of my concerns. The worst thing was that
:15:54. > :15:58.the government of South Africa decided that it was going to
:15:59. > :16:04.investigate those allegations. Another allegation was that I was
:16:05. > :16:11.working for the president of America to determine who hates America. Why
:16:12. > :16:19.would they use need to spy against presidents, to find out who hates
:16:20. > :16:23.America? The South African government chose to give credence to
:16:24. > :16:28.those allegations, and that brings us back to President Zuma. Do you
:16:29. > :16:32.believe he was responsible for the intimidator ray actions against you?
:16:33. > :16:38.I will never know, but from what I heard from his advisers, at least
:16:39. > :16:46.during the Uganda investigation, during the state investigation, they
:16:47. > :16:50.don't know. He has never given me a sense that he hates me personally.
:16:51. > :16:57.But I do know that he could have stopped it. At no stage did he ever
:16:58. > :17:07.have it stopped. The President did say that this must stop. Another big
:17:08. > :17:11.picture result of the work you've done is a discussion about whether
:17:12. > :17:15.South Africa's Constitution is really working. Going back to the
:17:16. > :17:21.days of writing that constitution, which you, as a postgraduate
:17:22. > :17:26.student, you actually became involved in the creation of the
:17:27. > :17:33.Constitution. One of the main points is the separation of powers, the
:17:34. > :17:45.office of Public Rick Victor is one guarantee of checking on the power
:17:46. > :17:51.of governments in South Africa -- public director. I think it is clear
:17:52. > :17:58.what the judiciary does and what the legislature does. It was not always
:17:59. > :18:04.clear what the protector has to do. It is clear that they have the power
:18:05. > :18:10.to investigate in suspected improper conduct. But I always thought that
:18:11. > :18:16.you could not force people to do things, because you are not in
:18:17. > :18:19.charge. Sorry to interrupt, but you very consciously left the AMC before
:18:20. > :18:25.you took the public protect the job. I wonder whether you believe there
:18:26. > :18:34.is a danger, perhaps even now, that the public protect it office may
:18:35. > :18:39.become too closely allied with the executive -- protector. It is
:18:40. > :18:45.important for the public protector not to be seen to be aligned to any
:18:46. > :18:51.political party. You are supposed to be agnostic. I can say that during
:18:52. > :18:56.my time, the office was politically agnostic. You say, during my time.
:18:57. > :19:01.What we have today is a very interesting controversy about
:19:02. > :19:09.comments made by your success. The relatively new public protector who,
:19:10. > :19:16.in recent days, has, in the midst of an investigation to an historic
:19:17. > :19:20.allegation of wrongdoing in a South African bank, has issued an opinion
:19:21. > :19:25.suggesting that the South African reserve bank should change its
:19:26. > :19:33.constitutional obligation to put protection of the currency at the
:19:34. > :19:36.centre of policy-making. She has suggested that in future, the
:19:37. > :19:42.reserve bank should actually focus more on delivering growth and
:19:43. > :19:45.equitable growth that spreads prosperity to a greater number of
:19:46. > :19:50.South African people. What do you think of her intervention in that
:19:51. > :19:55.way? She is making her own choices based on how she understands the
:19:56. > :19:59.Constitution and the war. I don't think it's proper for me to comment
:20:00. > :20:05.on that. Would you have made that sort of thing? Do you think that is
:20:06. > :20:11.part of your remit as public protector? All I can say is that bad
:20:12. > :20:15.investigation has concluded and I was at the point where I should have
:20:16. > :20:20.signed a provisional report. During my time, the issues of the powers of
:20:21. > :20:25.the reserve bank was not an issue. Did you see it as part of your
:20:26. > :20:29.remit? I would say that the complaints did not involve the
:20:30. > :20:33.powers of the reserve bank in this case. The complaint was... You think
:20:34. > :20:37.she overstepped when she waded into this argument? I don't know. A lot
:20:38. > :20:42.has happened since October last year. A complaints may have been
:20:43. > :20:47.lodged about the powers of the reserve bank that was linked with
:20:48. > :20:54.this. She may have come across issues... The former finance
:20:55. > :20:57.minister, you are trying to be diplomatic, but the former finance
:20:58. > :21:02.minister said it was nothing to do with her, it is so above her pay
:21:03. > :21:10.grade. What you make of that? Is a he has the right to comment. Right
:21:11. > :21:18.now, it would be rude to comment on my successes. I will not tempt you
:21:19. > :21:22.to be rude. But I am going to ask you about state capture. We talked
:21:23. > :21:30.about your report, it underpins so much of what South Africans are
:21:31. > :21:35.debating today. How did do these allegations go? What is President
:21:36. > :21:37.Zuma was to resign because of the allegations surrounding his
:21:38. > :21:41.government? Would that be an end to it? Or do you think that this
:21:42. > :21:48.concept of state capture runs much deeper than that in today's's South
:21:49. > :21:57.Africa? The allegations and evidence, they suggest there is a
:21:58. > :22:02.very serious problems. However, the evidence that we have at the moment
:22:03. > :22:10.is really relating to President Zuma, and aligned companies.
:22:11. > :22:16.Therefore, when President Zuma's term has ended, perhaps the story
:22:17. > :22:20.will be different. But I wouldn't say it would necessarily end,
:22:21. > :22:32.because it would depend on who comes into government. How do you and the
:22:33. > :22:37.presidency in a way that restores public trust? -- end. We need to
:22:38. > :22:42.have a public enquiry. Ending with something personal. You were brought
:22:43. > :22:45.up in a poor family. You are very much part of the liberation
:22:46. > :22:51.generation. As a young woman, you helped write the South African
:22:52. > :22:55.Constitution. You worked in the public servers for much of your
:22:56. > :23:05.life. It seems to me that, having quit the public protector's offers,
:23:06. > :23:12.you seem very disillusioned with how South Africa has travelled and you
:23:13. > :23:17.believe that Nelson Mandela's vision has not been fulfilled in the
:23:18. > :23:21.country. Are you disillusioned? I am disappointed with some of the
:23:22. > :23:28.decisions made, and I am disappointed with what is said by
:23:29. > :23:32.many people in power. I see a lot of activities that are taking place now
:23:33. > :23:36.that I'm making sure that we get out of this, and if you ask me what is
:23:37. > :23:43.going to be the future, two years from now, I see a progress in South
:23:44. > :23:56.Africa that is not facing any economic difficulties. I see us
:23:57. > :24:03.having a better state. We have to end there, but Thuli Madonsela,
:24:04. > :24:26.thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you very much.
:24:27. > :24:32.We saw the peak of the heatwave on Wednesday afternoon,
:24:33. > :24:40.with temperatures across southern Britain soaring into the low
:24:41. > :24:44.It was 35 degrees recorded at Heathrow, which was the warmest