:00:00. > :00:12.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:13. > :00:21.Welcome to HARDtalk I'm Stephen Sackur. On the face of it, Israel
:00:22. > :00:28.has achieved a form of stability, led by the same man for eight years,
:00:29. > :00:31.locked in a state of non- adjudication with the Palestinians
:00:32. > :00:36.and confident in strong support from Washington. But the deeper, and
:00:37. > :00:42.cracks appear. Prime Minister Netanyahu is under investigation.
:00:43. > :00:48.Israeli society seems uneasy with itself. My guess is Moshe Ya'alon,
:00:49. > :01:17.former Israeli defence Minister, turned harsh critic. How solid is
:01:18. > :01:27.Israel's unity? Moshe Ya'alon, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for
:01:28. > :01:33.having me. Israel has marked 50 years since the victory in the six
:01:34. > :01:38.Day War. But you seem to feel, right now, there are very serious
:01:39. > :01:44.questions about the direction Israel is going, and about national
:01:45. > :01:52.cohesion. Why are you so worried? From the security point of view, we
:01:53. > :02:01.enjoy today a relatively calm situation, security wise. This is a
:02:02. > :02:07.result of the Six Day War, which was the peak of the ideal of our
:02:08. > :02:15.coalition. Since then, at the idea of our coalition, this ideology has
:02:16. > :02:20.been declined. So it is not an Exocet a security threat that you
:02:21. > :02:27.feel is most concerning to Israel today? Yes, but you know, anyhow,
:02:28. > :02:34.Israel enjoys a vibrant democracy. On the one hand, it is shameful that
:02:35. > :02:39.Netanyahu is the Prime Minister, these are to be investigated because
:02:40. > :02:43.of allegations of corruption. One Prime Minister is in jail. That is
:02:44. > :02:51.the bad news. The good news is that we have a vibrant society. We have
:02:52. > :02:58.law enforcement that is independent, as we can see it. So it is an
:02:59. > :03:02.internal struggle about... But it is not just about Netanyahu. You said
:03:03. > :03:07.not long ago, and this caused a stir in Israel. You said to your sorrow,
:03:08. > :03:14.extremist and dangerous elements had taken over Israel, and in
:03:15. > :03:21.particular, the Likud party, and threatening to hurt residents. There
:03:22. > :03:27.is a powerful words. It is. And I had a lot of fights before resigning
:03:28. > :03:32.from the government because of certain plants are they did not
:03:33. > :03:38.like. Extremism? Do you see that in your own government that you search
:03:39. > :03:43.for seven years? It is a vibrant society. -- that you serve it. I
:03:44. > :03:48.have the culpability and a responsibility to criticise the
:03:49. > :03:51.government. You have also the responsibility to be clear about
:03:52. > :03:56.what you mean. I want you to be clear about the extremism that you
:03:57. > :04:06.see inside the Israeli government. I found too many politicians
:04:07. > :04:13.generating hatred against someone. Against leftists, the media, or the
:04:14. > :04:17.Supreme Court. It is a challenge. And we had to deal with it. And I
:04:18. > :04:22.believe we are able to. Isaac Herzog, now a member of the Zionist
:04:23. > :04:33.Union, he coined an extraordinary word calling at the fascistisation
:04:34. > :04:36.under Janette Howell. -- under Netanyahu. It does your agreeing
:04:37. > :04:46.with him. I am worried about it. You would use that phrase,
:04:47. > :04:52.fascistisation? In certain places, yes. Some politicians are going this
:04:53. > :04:56.way. This is not the vast majority of politicians. But unfortunately,
:04:57. > :05:02.it is not stopped by the Prime Minister. That is why I dispute with
:05:03. > :05:09.him. I am very puzzled as to how you can sit in Cabinet as Deputy Premier
:05:10. > :05:13.for three or four years, and then as Defence Secretary, the senior
:05:14. > :05:19.security post in the Cabinet, for what? More than three years, serving
:05:20. > :05:22.as a loyal ally of Benjamin Netanyahu, and the fallout with him
:05:23. > :05:28.after seven years of service, and come out saying that he is fostering
:05:29. > :05:33.extremism, and possibly the fascistisation of Israel. That is
:05:34. > :05:37.extraordinary! It was not the case until the 2015 elections. Let's put
:05:38. > :05:43.it this way. It certainly changed, overnight? The Likud Party has
:05:44. > :05:49.changed. I joined it when the rule of law was above all. And this has
:05:50. > :05:55.been changed. Certainly, there are many politicians they could not win
:05:56. > :06:00.the primaries of the Likud Party. So it is a challenge. But I believe the
:06:01. > :06:08.Israeli society can deal with it. We will get to the bigger strategic
:06:09. > :06:11.picture and a moment. But let's stick to the internal politics of
:06:12. > :06:22.Benjamin Netanyahu, the Likud Party, and you have been a critic now, but
:06:23. > :06:26.also you have been involve a long time. How can you say that beyond
:06:27. > :06:32.doubt Benjamin Netanyahu is guilty of these allegations that he denies?
:06:33. > :06:37.Some of these concerned his behaviour and others convey the
:06:38. > :06:42.behaviour of others, it is legally involving defence contracts, and
:06:43. > :06:47.summaries. You say it you have no doubts that it is not indicted, you
:06:48. > :06:52.say you will go on a speaking tour and tell all. -- and submarines.
:06:53. > :06:57.What is it that you know that the rest of Israel does not? I am not
:06:58. > :07:01.into elaborate. It is under investigation. I do want to harm the
:07:02. > :07:05.process. -- I am not going to elaborate. But I did say that I am
:07:06. > :07:10.sure that in the end, people should be indicted. If not, then I will go
:07:11. > :07:18.publicly to share all my information, all I know about the
:07:19. > :07:22.situation with the people of Israel. People do not change their spots, do
:07:23. > :07:27.they? Use a Benjamin Netanyahu somehow slipped in 2015, around the
:07:28. > :07:32.time of the election. You have Sir Tim, by then, for what? Six years...
:07:33. > :07:35.You can't tell me that the main union for six years suddenly became
:07:36. > :07:46.somebody completely different after the election. -- you have served
:07:47. > :07:49.him. I did not believe that he would be involved in corruption affairs. I
:07:50. > :07:56.did not believe it. And he denies it. And I was surprised. It happened
:07:57. > :08:02.at the start of 2016, and I believe this is an internal issue that law
:08:03. > :08:06.enforcement will deal with properly. Benjamin Netanyahu says that you are
:08:07. > :08:11.just desperate to launch own political career. Fregley, a career
:08:12. > :08:17.that right now looks like it is struggling. So he said it. --
:08:18. > :08:26.frankly. Let's wait and see the consequences of the investigations.
:08:27. > :08:32.Is this not about Netanyahu, but something corrosive at the heart of
:08:33. > :08:42.the Israeli state that says something about is ready values,
:08:43. > :08:46.today? It is in politics. It is not part of a huge problem in Israeli
:08:47. > :08:56.society. But the political system has been corrupted. Politicians,
:08:57. > :09:02.many feel, have been corrupted. Not all are corrupt. But this is also
:09:03. > :09:07.not all society. I had the opportunity to meet the young
:09:08. > :09:10.generation in Israel, highly motivated and educated. They are
:09:11. > :09:14.looking for leadership, of course. They are frustrated with the current
:09:15. > :09:19.situation. They don't trust the leadership. It is not just about
:09:20. > :09:23.money and corruption in politics, though, is it? It is that that is
:09:24. > :09:27.connected to the very biggest of pictures, for example, Israel's
:09:28. > :09:33.continued occupation, after 50 years, of the West Bank. And what
:09:34. > :09:39.that does to the Israeli psyche, and two young Israelis, in particular.
:09:40. > :09:46.Is a matter of choice. I don't see at alternative for the fact that we
:09:47. > :09:51.have two lakh to deal with the Palestinian challenge. On the one
:09:52. > :10:04.hand, I don't see any chance for a final settlement with the
:10:05. > :10:14.Palestinians. -- we have to deal with. I was exposed to the details
:10:15. > :10:21.when I became head of intelligence. I supported Oslo. When I was told by
:10:22. > :10:28.our leaders at the time, in 1983 - 1995, it might bring about peace and
:10:29. > :10:32.tranquillity. As somebody who has expressed too many wars, a
:10:33. > :10:39.supporter. When I saw the details, as head of intelligence, I was
:10:40. > :10:44.shocked. He continued to believe, and I lived in Israel at the time,
:10:45. > :10:49.and remember it well. He said Israel has no choice. We said we have to
:10:50. > :10:55.make peace with our enemies. There is no alternative. That is why I
:10:56. > :11:03.agreed with him when he tried it. But he failed. And I know his way
:11:04. > :11:13.very well. And in his last speech, he delivered a speech ringing the
:11:14. > :11:20.second half of Oslo. He delivered a speech in October 19 85. He said a
:11:21. > :11:26.pleasant's authority should be less of a state. When I go to go back to
:11:27. > :11:31.1967 lines, and he knew he was talking about. He was the chief of
:11:32. > :11:35.general staff in the six Day War. And he said that Israeli sovereignty
:11:36. > :11:41.should be empowered on the blocks and classes. He never gave up on the
:11:42. > :11:50.2-state solution? You have to read his speech. He tried these two is --
:11:51. > :11:55.he tried the 2-state solution. It is not as though the 2-state solution.
:11:56. > :11:59.Another chip of the Israeli defence Forces, another Prime Minister, said
:12:00. > :12:03.this government, tell him that the Netanyahu government, is putting the
:12:04. > :12:07.country on the path to become an apartheid state. And it should be
:12:08. > :12:12.brought down if it fails to change course. You need to listen to what I
:12:13. > :12:15.think about the Israel Palestine conflict. I believe there is a
:12:16. > :12:32.chance to reach a final settlement. Not because of us. We tried it many
:12:33. > :12:40.times. Many rejected the proposal. Palestinian leaders rejected any
:12:41. > :12:45.partition led proposal in the land of Israel. Talking about the
:12:46. > :12:51.Palestinian presence in the West Bank. I do believe there is a
:12:52. > :12:57.settlement, not because of not because of us, because of them. You
:12:58. > :13:03.have to recognise... As Israel is, do you not have a responsibility to
:13:04. > :13:15.keep searching anti- working for a solution? -- as Israelis. Or suffer
:13:16. > :13:21.the consequences? I don't find settlement under those. And then to
:13:22. > :13:26.have little independence. To have their own parliament and government.
:13:27. > :13:32.As a president and so forth. I don't hold tours... Because they knew that
:13:33. > :13:36.I was going to talk to you today, I have done some research about your
:13:37. > :13:43.post as defence minister. But what happened? A series of reports cross
:13:44. > :13:47.your desk from UNICEF in 2013, saying the maltreatment of children
:13:48. > :13:50.in the West Bank appears to be white spread, systematic, and
:13:51. > :13:55.institutionalise. Human Rights Watch, a detailed report about
:13:56. > :14:03.Israeli forces using unnecessary force to detain and arrest young
:14:04. > :14:08.Palestinians, throwing grenades at them, beating them in custody. These
:14:09. > :14:09.reports cross your desk, the work of your idea. This is what occupation
:14:10. > :14:20.means. Do we have a choice? I prefer not to
:14:21. > :14:27.have a checkpoint. I prefer not to go and search for terrorists and
:14:28. > :14:32.weapons. Their choice was instead of peace, more than 1000 casualties on
:14:33. > :14:38.the Gaza Strip. CROSSTALK
:14:39. > :14:46.Your government, that is the Netanyahu government, which is until
:14:47. > :14:51.2016 decided not to negotiate with the Palestinian Authority.
:14:52. > :15:00.No, not at all! You will write the history. In the 14 we were engaged
:15:01. > :15:07.in nine months led by Secretary of State John Kerry. At the end of this
:15:08. > :15:11.nine months we were asked by Secretary Kerry to continue the
:15:12. > :15:16.negotiations according to a certain American document - terms of
:15:17. > :15:25.reference. We said yes, although we had reservations which we said we
:15:26. > :15:30.would discuss around the table. Abbas, did he pay any price for it?
:15:31. > :15:35.You are playing a tit for tat game as to who was responsible for the
:15:36. > :15:39.breakdown in talks. I am trying to look at the morals, values cohesion
:15:40. > :15:44.of an Israeli society that has prided itself on having the very
:15:45. > :15:52.best of humane values. I am putting it to you, if I listen to Israeli
:15:53. > :15:57.soldiers who have served the occupation, like Breaking the
:15:58. > :16:01.Silence, who are opposed to the occupation, former IDF soldiers,
:16:02. > :16:04.this is the moral consequence of the prolonged occupation of the
:16:05. > :16:09.Palestinian people - that is the corruption of young Israelis who
:16:10. > :16:15.served that occupation. It is a choice to allow the Palestinians to
:16:16. > :16:20.have Hamas as well, like in the Gaza Strip? We are not deployed any more
:16:21. > :16:28.in Gaza! You have to believe in the values of your state. We keep the
:16:29. > :16:34.values! I kept the values! In 2002 you described the Palestinian people
:16:35. > :16:38.as a cancer. I didn't do it. The Israeli media reported it. It
:16:39. > :16:44.doesn't mean that I set it. I didn't say it. You pick certain quotations.
:16:45. > :16:48.Did you see them for claiming you described the Palestinian people as,
:16:49. > :16:53.I am quoting directly, like a cancer? Didn't say that. Invisible
:16:54. > :16:56.but existential threat. Know, something very different but
:16:57. > :17:01.nevertheless, you know... How would you have failed if a Palestinian
:17:02. > :17:10.leader described the Jewish people as a cancer? I didn't do it! You are
:17:11. > :17:14.just accusing... I have denied... You are accusing the Israeli media
:17:15. > :17:23.of fabricating lies? There are so many misquotations. I know what I
:17:24. > :17:27.believe in. I wish to have full separation with the Palestinians.
:17:28. > :17:36.What did we have after Oslo? More than 1000 casualties after bombing
:17:37. > :17:42.attacks. What about after Gaza? This is the reality. What is the choice,
:17:43. > :17:50.to leave the West Bank for Palestinian Jihad and Daesh.
:17:51. > :17:54.President Trump says he is going to fix the Middle East problem. He said
:17:55. > :17:59.the other day, we will get it done. His son-in-law Jared Kushner has
:18:00. > :18:05.been sent to negotiate. He himself has seen Netanyahu and Abbas. He
:18:06. > :18:11.says Abbas is committed to peace. Is the US president Ron, misguided? No,
:18:12. > :18:15.he now says different things about the reality on the ground. I believe
:18:16. > :18:20.this administration is more realistic regarding the situation on
:18:21. > :18:25.the ground. First of all they tried to convince Abbas not to promote
:18:26. > :18:32.terror by paying salaries to terrorists or the families of
:18:33. > :18:36.jihadists and so forth. Is it wise for Donald Trump to put a great deal
:18:37. > :18:42.of political credibility and capital on the idea that he can make peace
:18:43. > :18:47.between Israel and the Palestinians? Let's try... So many presidents and
:18:48. > :18:53.Secretary of States try. Israeli Prime Minister is try to solve it.
:18:54. > :18:59.And they fail, why? Because the gap is huge. You can talk about peace.
:19:00. > :19:03.He is reluctant to recognise our right to exist as a nationstate as a
:19:04. > :19:08.Jewish people in any boundaries. Kenny Britt the gap? We have to
:19:09. > :19:16.manage the problem from the bottom-up -- you bridge the gap? If
:19:17. > :19:21.I may say so, you sound just like Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
:19:22. > :19:24.You spend the first part of the interview saying he was no longer
:19:25. > :19:28.qualified to be Israeli Prime Minister. You clearly won his job.
:19:29. > :19:33.Your positions on the key elements of this, the fact you won't talk
:19:34. > :19:38.about a two state solution, you won't talk about land for peace, you
:19:39. > :19:45.are just like Benjamin Netanyahu! First of all he, like myself,
:19:46. > :19:50.regarding the strategic issues, we didn't dispute it, whether Iran,
:19:51. > :19:54.what should be done in the region and this situation in the Middle
:19:55. > :19:58.East, or with regard to the Palestinian challenge. Your
:19:59. > :20:02.strategic vision is the same as Netanyahu's? Almost, yes. That will
:20:03. > :20:07.hardly persuade the public to shift from him to you. What does it mean
:20:08. > :20:12.if we agree about it? This is reality. I have 37 years of military
:20:13. > :20:24.experience, seven years in government experience. We don't have
:20:25. > :20:28.a two-state solution. Mahmoud Abbas escape from President Obama's
:20:29. > :20:37.proposal in 2014, he got away from the proposal in 2008, this is the
:20:38. > :20:43.reality. You've just been speaking at a big conference in London of The
:20:44. > :20:48.centre for Policy Studies security conference, and if we look in
:20:49. > :20:51.strategic terms, Israel has an opportunity, there are fractures and
:20:52. > :20:56.divisions in the Arab world, much of it is simplistic to put it as Sunni
:20:57. > :21:01.Shia, but there is an element of it, pragmatic leaders in the Sunni Arab
:21:02. > :21:06.world as a Saudi Arabia, let's say Jordan, Egypt, who may well be
:21:07. > :21:12.interested in a long-term alliance of sorts with Israel against Iran if
:21:13. > :21:17.Israel were prepared to make concessions on the Palestinian
:21:18. > :21:22.issue, which would let the Arabs in. But you are not ready to do that,
:21:23. > :21:26.are you? No, this is not the case, and I will tell you - I was in
:21:27. > :21:33.government when we tried to bring in regional parties, the Sunni Arab
:21:34. > :21:37.camp, to call operate on any kind of regional settlement in the region.
:21:38. > :21:43.First of all, we are on the same boat today. Those who still use the
:21:44. > :21:49.terms the Israeli - Arab conflict are irrelevant because we share the
:21:50. > :21:56.common enemies, Iran, ISIS, Al-Qaeda. Arabs are not going to buy
:21:57. > :22:00.that as long as you continue to refuse to contemplate a two-state
:22:01. > :22:04.solution. We don't refuse! And give the Palestinians a dream of
:22:05. > :22:08.statehood. I will tell you what happened with them. We tried to
:22:09. > :22:14.convince them to come in and generate these kind of political
:22:15. > :22:20.process. They rejected it. Why? The Palestinian issue is not in the
:22:21. > :22:25.first priority. There are the other challenges, Iran is the main
:22:26. > :22:32.challenge. It is about the Shia-Sunni conflict, global jihad
:22:33. > :22:40.and so forth. When we told them to come into the process, and they
:22:41. > :22:45.rejected to come in. Do you know that the only Sunni party today
:22:46. > :22:51.ready to spend money on the Palestinian issue is Qatar? The
:22:52. > :22:55.Saudis didn't spend a dollar. The Egyptians you can talk with...
:22:56. > :23:00.Seriously, they are not ready to invest in the Palestinian issue! It
:23:01. > :23:04.might be easy if Trump can convince them and we would be more than
:23:05. > :23:07.happy... You don't see a watershed moment of diplomatic opportunity for
:23:08. > :23:13.Israel. What you see is more of the same. More of the status quo. I will
:23:14. > :23:17.ask you a final question. What is your vision of where Israel is a
:23:18. > :23:23.generation from now, 25 years from now? With the political separation
:23:24. > :23:30.which is a positive outcome of Oslo, I am not afraid for democracy. The
:23:31. > :23:34.Gazans are not going to vote in the Canasta to and I don't want a
:23:35. > :23:39.bilateral state so Palestinians who live in the West Bank... They enjoy
:23:40. > :23:47.their own political independence, they don't have to vote to the
:23:48. > :23:52.Knesset. This is the reality on the ground today. We should not keep it
:23:53. > :23:56.as the status quo and improve it from the bottom up. It is going to
:23:57. > :24:04.fail anyhow if the Palestinians will go on educating their generation to
:24:05. > :24:08.hate Jews and kids from kindergarten are educated to wear its close it is
:24:09. > :24:12.to kill us. This is the main point. And we have to end it there. Moshe
:24:13. > :24:16.Ya'alon, I thank you for being on HARDtalk thank you.