:00:00. > :00:00.It is his first visit as Chinese leader, and more
:00:00. > :00:17.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:18. > :00:22.A generation ago, the first President Bush proclaimed a new
:00:23. > :00:27.world order which America would lead a example. 25 years on, and Donald
:00:28. > :00:34.Trump is in the White House. So what kind of example is America setting
:00:35. > :00:38.now? My guest is Joe Lieberman, former US Senator, Al Gore's vice
:00:39. > :00:43.presidential running mate in 2000, and recently touted as a contender
:00:44. > :00:46.for FBI director under the current president. Is Donald Trump
:00:47. > :01:16.fundamentally changing America's global role?
:01:17. > :01:21.Let's begin maybe have to begin, with an assessment of Donald Trump.
:01:22. > :01:27.Are you alarmed or reassured by what you have seen?
:01:28. > :01:30.Obviously President Trump ran a campaign unlike any we have
:01:31. > :01:34.As a former officeholder, during the year I would run
:01:35. > :01:37.into other officeholders or current elected officials, and we would go
:01:38. > :01:40.through the latest thing that candidate Trump had said,
:01:41. > :01:43.which he would have agreed would have ended our campaign.
:01:44. > :01:54.Part of it was that the public wanted a change, wanted an outsider.
:01:55. > :01:56.Because he was a successful businessman, they thought
:01:57. > :01:59.he may be able to make the government work again.
:02:00. > :02:01.He has brought the same style, spirit and unpredictability
:02:02. > :02:17.I wonder whether you think that is appropriate?
:02:18. > :02:19.The right thing for America at this time.
:02:20. > :02:24.He really has to be more disciplined.
:02:25. > :02:28.We're talking about foreign policy exclusively?
:02:29. > :02:33.Part of why I think people elected him is for change.
:02:34. > :02:35.He has implemented some change by executive order.
:02:36. > :02:38.Pulling out of the climate change pact.
:02:39. > :02:40.Withdrawing us from the TPP trade agreement.
:02:41. > :02:43.Personally they are steps I don't agree with and are disappointed by.
:02:44. > :02:47.The next most important thing, and has not happened yet,
:02:48. > :02:50.to prove that his capacity as a leader, and experience
:02:51. > :02:53.as negotiator, enables him to do something that has not been done
:02:54. > :02:55.very much in recent years in Washington.
:02:56. > :02:57.Bring Republicans and Democrats together.
:02:58. > :02:58.Each to compromise to agree something.
:02:59. > :03:08.Right now, the obvious place where that is necessary is on health care.
:03:09. > :03:11.The atmosphere seems as toxic, poisonous as ever before.
:03:12. > :03:17.We need to clarify what your party is.
:03:18. > :03:22.You famously quipped the Democratic party more than ten years ago.
:03:23. > :03:24.Ran against them won your Connecticut seat as an independent.
:03:25. > :03:27.You infuriated save many in your party by actually backing
:03:28. > :03:29.John McCain for president against Barack Obama in 2008.
:03:30. > :03:32.I have to ask you did you vote for Trump?
:03:33. > :03:34.I strongly voted for Hillary Clinton.
:03:35. > :03:38.Many Democrats regard you as an traitor.
:03:39. > :03:42.In 2006, because I stuck with the Iraq war longer than others.
:03:43. > :03:44.This is part of the toxic atmosphere.
:03:45. > :03:46.Even though my voting record was good on domestic issues.
:03:47. > :03:49.I was challenged in the Democratic primary and lost.
:03:50. > :03:52.The old Ronald Reagan line, not so much I left the Democratic party,
:03:53. > :04:06.On the other hand I didn't become republican.
:04:07. > :04:09.That perspective depends on the size of your ego.
:04:10. > :04:11.What I'm saying is Democratic rejected may rejected my
:04:12. > :04:15.One of my consultant said, you should run as an independent.
:04:16. > :04:18.I am afraid the Iraq war will do you win.
:04:19. > :04:25.They will have to push me out of they don't think
:04:26. > :04:29.Of course they did, I was lucky enough to get elected.
:04:30. > :04:33.I want to come back to the extent America may still be open
:04:34. > :04:35.to a different brand of politics, getting away from the binary
:04:36. > :04:41.What intrigues me now, within the last month or two,
:04:42. > :04:43.you seriously toyed with the proposition of joining
:04:44. > :04:46.the Trump team, in a sense, by taking seriously deep thought
:04:47. > :04:48.you might become Trump's new director of the FBI.
:04:49. > :05:02.If you say, it at the beginning of the interview, have serious
:05:03. > :05:13.Who are a lot of people used to be in American politics.
:05:14. > :05:16.But not so many anymore unfortunately.
:05:17. > :05:19.I was raised to believe if the President of United States
:05:20. > :05:22.calls to service, of the country, you have a profound obligation
:05:23. > :05:24.to take that seriously, probably do it unless there
:05:25. > :06:09.He has fired his FBI chief, because, and we now know
:06:10. > :06:12.from the testimony of James Comey, he feels that Donald Trump
:06:13. > :06:15.was telling him to close down an investigation into his first
:06:16. > :06:16.National Security adviser, General Mike Flynn.
:06:17. > :06:34.We'll know James Comey said, I hope you will know
:06:35. > :06:49.A direct quote from James Comey, his direct recollection,
:06:50. > :06:53.that Trump said I hope you can see your way to letting this go.
:06:54. > :06:56.He's a good guy, I hope you can let this go.
:06:57. > :06:59.Here is the point, I suppose there is a possibility that
:07:00. > :07:02.a president I have such a profound difference in foreign
:07:03. > :07:04.and domestic policy, that I would not seriously consider
:07:05. > :07:07.what I would normally do, in a call to serve.
:07:08. > :07:09.I don't think he has crossed that line.
:07:10. > :07:15.I agree with a lot of what he has done foreign policy.
:07:16. > :07:18.Of course I had the confidence and ego to think perhaps
:07:19. > :07:28.I could make a difference as director of the FBI.
:07:29. > :07:30.Take me into that conversation you had with Donald Trump.
:07:31. > :07:33.In the end you refuse yourself because you believed
:07:34. > :07:35.there was a conflict-of-interest, because of activities
:07:36. > :07:40.When you Trump discuss the possibility of you becoming his
:07:41. > :07:44.new FBI chief, did he at any point sake, if you take this
:07:45. > :07:46.job you have to go easy on this Russia thing,
:07:47. > :07:59.I don't like to talk about conversations I had
:08:00. > :08:06.He said I would never ask you to do something or not do something that
:08:07. > :08:19.You are the director of the FBI, you have to do what the law
:08:20. > :08:24.And he added, I did not ask James Comey to do anything, either.
:08:25. > :08:27.I don't know President Trump very well, met him over
:08:28. > :08:37.I am aware for some of the things he said during the campaign,
:08:38. > :08:50.If it comes down to this, Senator, if I may.
:08:51. > :08:53.If you were to consider being his FBI chief,
:08:54. > :08:55.you would have too believed he was a truth teller,
:08:56. > :09:08.I don't think he has gone over the line on either of those.
:09:09. > :09:10.His presidency is a work in progress.
:09:11. > :09:12.The director of the FBI is an important role.
:09:13. > :09:18.This is part of the problem in Washington.
:09:19. > :09:21.I don't like that Democrats, my party, had gone into
:09:22. > :09:23.what they have called themselves, the resistance.
:09:24. > :09:25.Anything that Trump recommends, forget it, we are opposed to it.
:09:26. > :09:28.What happens in that case, the country does not solve
:09:29. > :09:30.any of its problems, take any opportunities.
:09:31. > :09:32.There is no compromise to get things done.
:09:33. > :09:34.We will not deal with immigration reform.
:09:35. > :09:41.Any of the rest that we need to deal with.
:09:42. > :09:46.Not look at people in the other party as the enemy.
:09:47. > :10:05.He knows I was a strong supporter of Secretary Clinton last year.
:10:06. > :10:08.That did not stop him from asking me to do this.
:10:09. > :10:11.The fact I did not support him, disagreed with some of the things
:10:12. > :10:14.he has done as president should not stop me considering taking
:10:15. > :10:20.In the last few days Trump has publicly reflected on the friendship
:10:21. > :10:22.between James Comey, he fired, and Robert Mueller,
:10:23. > :10:24.now the special counsel in charge of investigating
:10:25. > :10:28.Trump says he finds it very bothersome that they are friends.
:10:29. > :10:32.De think he has a right to say that, and say it in public?
:10:33. > :10:44.One thing we have to accept is that president Trump will say a lot
:10:45. > :10:46.of things in public that other elected leaders have
:10:47. > :11:01.I understand particularly because he feels he is unfairly
:11:02. > :11:03.targeted, while he will worry as result of learning
:11:04. > :11:06.about what I think is a professional friendship and relationship
:11:07. > :11:10.I don't know Comey, I do know Bob Mueller.
:11:11. > :11:14.There is at least as high likelihood that Bob Mueller will look
:11:15. > :11:17.at the facts and decide the president has done nothing
:11:18. > :11:19.wrong or actionable, as he will find wrongdoing.
:11:20. > :11:27.You lived through the impeachment of a Democratic
:11:28. > :11:39.Do you think, now you look at how this is unfolding,
:11:40. > :11:44.we may see the impeachment of Donald Trump?
:11:45. > :11:52.In other words, based on what we have heard so far,
:11:53. > :11:54.including Comey saying in his testimony before the Senate
:11:55. > :11:57.there was no evidence he has seen the president being involved
:11:58. > :12:03.in collusion with the Russians, meddling in the US election.
:12:04. > :12:06.The case, the president needs to do something criminal, probably not.
:12:07. > :12:08.To try to protect General Flynn from prosecution.
:12:09. > :12:12.My guess is, they will be a lot of sound and fury coming
:12:13. > :12:19.In the end Bob Mueller, the special counsel has the power
:12:20. > :12:36.I would be very surprised if this ends up impeachment.
:12:37. > :12:40.Let me ask you about the Democrat party, I'm intrigued in this
:12:41. > :12:47.interview keep calling it your party.
:12:48. > :12:49.Bernie Sanders says the lessons of the last election
:12:50. > :13:03.The American people are fed up with the elites that
:13:04. > :13:05.have run their lives and neglected their
:13:06. > :13:20.He says the Democratic party has been a part of that problem.
:13:21. > :13:22.The system is rigged against ordinary people, rigged
:13:23. > :13:25.in favour of the billionaires, the Democrats must find a leadership
:13:26. > :13:28.prepared to express that the basis for fighting a political battle
:13:29. > :13:36.Which is to say there are some people in the US who feel that way.
:13:37. > :13:39.In my opinion, there are a lot more who want Republicans
:13:40. > :13:41.and Democrats to come together and get something done.
:13:42. > :13:44.I think Bernie Sanders did as well as he did
:13:45. > :13:47.in the primaries only in part because of what I would call
:13:48. > :14:00.You say the Democrats have to get over this idea they have the present
:14:01. > :14:10.Sanders is saying absolutely on the country.
:14:11. > :14:13.-- Sanders is saying absolutely on the contrary.
:14:14. > :14:16.The only way we can build a movement to take back the White House
:14:17. > :14:21.Perhaps this is a way to clarify what I'm saying.
:14:22. > :14:23.I think Democrats have a responsibility to oppose Trump
:14:24. > :14:26.when they have a policy reason to do so.
:14:27. > :14:28.And they should do it with real vigour.
:14:29. > :14:31.At some point they have to decide, for instance, on health
:14:32. > :14:33.care and tax reform, whether they want to negotiate
:14:34. > :14:36.to get something done, whether this will be two years
:14:37. > :14:41.It is a difference between what seems to be a times
:14:42. > :14:48.Anything Trump and the Republicans want, we are against.
:14:49. > :14:51.Really principled and aggressive promotion
:14:52. > :15:03.You have spent much of your life either in New York or Washington.
:15:04. > :15:07.You are an elite Democrat, precisely the reason the Democrats
:15:08. > :15:12.are not getting traction, in the rust belt states,
:15:13. > :15:17.where Donald Trump actually found his path to victory?
:15:18. > :15:25.I spent most of my life in Connecticut.
:15:26. > :15:31.Always did very well in Connecticut amongst
:15:32. > :15:32.working-class Democrats, independents, and
:15:33. > :15:44.Sometimes they knew it was because I was not a captive
:15:45. > :15:48.I was really fighting for them, trying to get things done for them.
:15:49. > :16:05.Medicaid Tip at ultimately you walked out of your party precisely
:16:06. > :16:10.because of your differences with the mainstream of your party on a host
:16:11. > :16:14.of foreign policies, in particular Iraq. It seems to me that you have
:16:15. > :16:19.not learned the lesson of what America has done, in the least, over
:16:20. > :16:23.the last two decades. Endless interventions, endless commitment
:16:24. > :16:28.and belief that America could change the rules of the game and sow the
:16:29. > :16:32.seeds of democracy in a host of countries where they do not have a
:16:33. > :16:37.history of democracy and it has failed time and again. Yet you seem
:16:38. > :16:43.to remain a hawkish liberal interventionist. Why? I think that
:16:44. > :16:51.is the right place for us to be. In the face of evidence? Let me say
:16:52. > :16:58.again that I did not walk away from the Democrats. This is important.
:16:59. > :17:01.The Democratic Party rejected my candidacy for re-election based on
:17:02. > :17:06.one issue, Iraq. It was classic of what politics is in America. I
:17:07. > :17:11.believed... I knew that if I supported the war I knew that the
:17:12. > :17:15.Bush administration had made a serious mistake after the war was
:17:16. > :17:20.won in trying to reconstruct Iraq. But I thought that if we withdrew it
:17:21. > :17:25.would be a cataclysm are not only for Iraq for the credibility of
:17:26. > :17:31.America in the world and our lot depends on our credibility in the
:17:32. > :17:36.world. My record beyond that was a strong pro- democratic, that is pro-
:17:37. > :17:46.Democratic Party record. Leaving Iraq for a moment and talking about
:17:47. > :17:54.Iran. Barack Obama pulled together a nuclear deal with the Iranians, with
:17:55. > :17:56.the P5 plus one. He got that deal in the deal is intact.
:17:57. > :17:59.Rex Tillerson testified to say the Iranians are meeting
:18:00. > :18:03.Yet, you continue to say, one time you called it shameful.
:18:04. > :18:08.You continue to call for new sanctions to
:18:09. > :18:22.Iran is still by our own State Department determination,
:18:23. > :18:24.the number-1 state-sponsored terrorism.
:18:25. > :18:28.Iran has tens of thousands of its own forces in Syria,
:18:29. > :18:37.Iran represses its own people in a way, the regime does come in a way
:18:38. > :18:46.This is all way more complicated than you have just outlined.
:18:47. > :18:50.In Syria, Iran is backing Bashar Al-Assad, to even some
:18:51. > :18:53.in Washington now represents some sort of stability in the face
:18:54. > :18:55.of the threat of Islamic State and other jihadists organisations.
:18:56. > :18:58.Equally in Iraq, Iran's role in Iraq has been, over the years,
:18:59. > :19:09.essentially buttressed by the war America started.
:19:10. > :19:12.Right now we are doing better in our relations
:19:13. > :19:18.Quite successful in Mosul, in rolling back Isis.
:19:19. > :19:23.I don't know where to begin to respond first time
:19:24. > :19:27.here in London, part of a group called United against Nuclear Iran.
:19:28. > :19:31.We are focused on businesses in 2008.
:19:32. > :19:39.To observe the economic sanctions, not doing business in Iran.
:19:40. > :19:43.Since the Iran nuclear agreement, we have been saying to businesses
:19:44. > :19:51.It is a high risk situation for any business.
:19:52. > :19:53.A lot of the other sanctions are still there.
:19:54. > :19:57.It remains a place where there is not really rule of law.
:19:58. > :20:04.A dominant influence by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps,
:20:05. > :20:07.which as been designated a terrorist organisation.
:20:08. > :20:09.Any business doing business with it may subject itself
:20:10. > :20:15.Quickfire thoughts on the role America in the world
:20:16. > :20:21.Trump said he would rip up the deal with the Iranians.
:20:22. > :20:30.He also came to office saying he would move the Israeli
:20:31. > :20:34.Something you very actively supported.
:20:35. > :20:36.Now seems he would not do that either.
:20:37. > :20:39.Do you think Donald Trump, in reality, is rather different
:20:40. > :20:44.from the Donald Trump of Twitter promises and outrageous comments?
:20:45. > :20:49.The foreign policy of the Trump organisation is a work of progress.
:20:50. > :20:56.Some of the changes you describe should be encouraging
:20:57. > :21:01.to people who are in a panic about what they Trump
:21:02. > :21:05.Not necessarily to you, in a sense you are more hawkish
:21:06. > :21:15.I don't like breaking of the trade agreements.
:21:16. > :21:19.I don't like pulling out of the climate change pact, etc.
:21:20. > :21:22.There is a steadiness, leaning towards change on most
:21:23. > :21:29.The big area of changing the Trump foreign policy,
:21:30. > :21:32.from President Obama is in the Middle East.
:21:33. > :21:38.I think Trump has said very clearly, we have two
:21:39. > :21:40.enemies in the Middle East, and I think he's
:21:41. > :21:47.The friends in the Arab world, and Israel.
:21:48. > :21:50.We will support our friends, and oppose our enemies
:21:51. > :21:52.until they prove to us, Iran, that they are
:21:53. > :22:00.That is significant, already having effects on the ground.
:22:01. > :22:05.Both in terms of the unprecedented diplomatic and military activity
:22:06. > :22:08.in the Gulf Arab nations, and this remarkable coming together
:22:09. > :22:12.A final thought, when you talk about his change of policy
:22:13. > :22:16.from Obama in the Middle East, you are focused on one
:22:17. > :22:20.Perhaps not taking account of what Trump means,
:22:21. > :22:25.and the impact he's having on America's partners
:22:26. > :22:30.Let me quote you Angela Merkel, ending his interview, she says this.
:22:31. > :22:36.She says time for Germany and Europe to take their fate
:22:37. > :22:40.The time we can rely on others, and clearly referring
:22:41. > :22:45.Do you worry, as someone who has was wanted America to play very
:22:46. > :22:50.Under Trump, America's most staunch partners and allies have fundamental
:22:51. > :22:57.doubts about whether America is still the world's leading power?
:22:58. > :23:00.Of course, because I believe in a foreign policy that
:23:01. > :23:06.I would urge people like Chancellor Merkel
:23:07. > :23:09.and others who have doubts about President Trump's foreign
:23:10. > :23:21.Acknowledge that although he has said Nato was obsolete,
:23:22. > :23:25.and when he came to Europe he did not say he supported article
:23:26. > :23:32.I think he will prove himself to be a better ally than people think.
:23:33. > :23:35.Look, the world, our allies, they need us
:23:36. > :23:37.You are remarkably kind of Donald Trump.
:23:38. > :23:40.The cynic in me wonders whether you still want him
:23:41. > :23:46.No, when he offered me the job, it was a time of real
:23:47. > :23:53.When he first called me, I said to him, Mr President,
:23:54. > :24:00.I am honoured, I will think about it because you are the president.
:24:01. > :24:04.I must tell you I love my life since I left the Senate.
:24:05. > :24:10.Joe Lieberman, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.