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0:00:04 > 0:00:08Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:11Welcome to HARDTalk with me, Zeinab Badawi.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13The recent release of Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi
0:00:14 > 0:00:16by the Bolivian group holding him has led
0:00:16 > 0:00:18to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, the ICC,
0:00:18 > 0:00:26demanding his arrest.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29He's been indicted by the court for alleged crimes against humanity,
0:00:29 > 0:00:33murder and persecution.
0:00:33 > 0:00:37The ICC was set up in 2002 as a court of last resort to try
0:00:37 > 0:00:40such individuals, but it's met a barrage of criticisms,
0:00:40 > 0:00:42principally that it has an anti-African bias,
0:00:42 > 0:00:45because only Africans have been convicted and nearly all the cases
0:00:45 > 0:00:51before it are from the continent.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54My guest is the prosecutor of the ICC, Fatou Bensouda,
0:00:54 > 0:00:55a lawyer from Gambia.
0:00:55 > 0:01:01What does she say in the court's defence?
0:01:19 > 0:01:20Fatou Bensouda, welcome to HARDTalk.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24Thank you for having me.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27You were born in Gambia to a Muslim family.
0:01:27 > 0:01:28You studied law in Nigeria.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32Then you returned to Gambia in 1987 to work as a public prosecutor.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34Why did you want to go into law?
0:01:34 > 0:01:37I believe it is this, you know, sense of right and wrong,
0:01:37 > 0:01:40and justice, that something which is just in me.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43And the fact that I also grew up in a community where you really see
0:01:44 > 0:01:46that there are some people, maybe the vulnerable in society,
0:01:46 > 0:01:49women, children, who actually do not receive the protective embrace
0:01:49 > 0:01:53of the law.
0:01:53 > 0:02:03And I was exposed in a community where I have seen this,
0:02:03 > 0:02:13where I have seen especially women undergo domestic violence.
0:02:13 > 0:02:20The parents always tell them that it is the right
0:02:20 > 0:02:23of the husband, for instance.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27If you go to the police they will say it's a civil matter
0:02:27 > 0:02:32and that they cannot interfere.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35And I had the opportunity also to serve as a clerk of court
0:02:35 > 0:02:45in the High Court of the Gambia, and this exposed me to some
0:02:45 > 0:02:47of the horrors that befell these women, domestic violence.
0:02:47 > 0:02:51And I made up my mind at a very early age that this is something
0:02:51 > 0:02:53I want to contribute to.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55Somebody who has known you since schooldays,
0:02:55 > 0:02:58Amie Bensouda - no relative - says of you, the area of law that
0:02:58 > 0:03:00Fatou is most comfortable with is prosecution.
0:03:00 > 0:03:03Why not defence?
0:03:03 > 0:03:05Defending somebody is also a very honourable tradition, isn't it?
0:03:05 > 0:03:08Indeed, it's very honourable, and I always say that the prosecutor
0:03:08 > 0:03:11will only be as good as the defence.
0:03:11 > 0:03:13And it's very important that anybody, everybody should be
0:03:13 > 0:03:14defended before the courts.
0:03:14 > 0:03:21But also so should the victims.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24Prosecuting, in a way, is standing up for the victims.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28OK, another thing about the International Criminal Court,
0:03:28 > 0:03:31it's not really worthy of the name international, is it?
0:03:31 > 0:03:33It's not international.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37It is international.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39If you look at the idea of the international community
0:03:39 > 0:03:42in setting up the court, an International Criminal Court,
0:03:42 > 0:03:45for a long time, it culminated in 1998, when the Rome Statute
0:03:45 > 0:03:52was actually signed.
0:03:52 > 0:03:57This is the idea that the international community...
0:03:57 > 0:03:59I tell you why I said that, though.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02Some of the most significant members of the international community -
0:04:02 > 0:04:05China, Russia, the United States - three of the five permanent members
0:04:05 > 0:04:11of the UN Security Council are not part of the ICC.
0:04:11 > 0:04:12Big countries, India, Pakistan, Indonesia,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15also not members.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18Indeed, but there is also a large majority of the world community that
0:04:18 > 0:04:21are now enjoying the protection of international criminal justice
0:04:21 > 0:04:22and the International Criminal Court.
0:04:22 > 0:04:27If you look at today, the International Criminal Court
0:04:27 > 0:04:30enjoys 124 states that are parties to the Rome Statute and part
0:04:30 > 0:04:33of the ICC.
0:04:33 > 0:04:35Also, potentially, the ICC could have a universal reach,
0:04:35 > 0:04:40in the sense that we as a court can intervene in situations
0:04:40 > 0:04:52where the crimes are committed on the territory of a state party,
0:04:52 > 0:04:55by whomsoever commits the crime, whether you are a state party
0:04:55 > 0:04:58or not, and the nationals of states where they commit crimes,
0:04:58 > 0:05:04wherever they also go to commit this crime,
0:05:04 > 0:05:05we have jurisdiction.
0:05:05 > 0:05:07So the remit of the ICC could potentially be universal,
0:05:07 > 0:05:11in the sense that we are looking at crime even in states that are not
0:05:11 > 0:05:14parties to the Rome Statute, because there are allegations
0:05:14 > 0:05:20of these crimes.
0:05:20 > 0:05:24But the fact of the matter is that your reach seems to have
0:05:24 > 0:05:27only gone as far as Africa, because of the 11 situations
0:05:27 > 0:05:28in varying degrees of progress.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31Whether they are the six cases before you or preliminary
0:05:31 > 0:05:33investigations, all but one, Georgia, are African.
0:05:33 > 0:05:38This is true.
0:05:38 > 0:05:40I know you have heard this criticism before but,
0:05:40 > 0:05:43as an African, you have to have a reasonable answer.
0:05:43 > 0:05:45This criticism unfortunately is misplaced, and it is not backed
0:05:46 > 0:05:52by relevant facts.
0:05:52 > 0:05:55I'm saying this because, if you look at the situations
0:05:55 > 0:05:58that we are investigating now in Africa, a majority of those
0:05:58 > 0:06:03situations have been at the request of the African states themselves,
0:06:03 > 0:06:06who have requested the ICC to intervene because they are state
0:06:06 > 0:06:16parties.
0:06:16 > 0:06:20The system that the ICC has set up is that, in the event that these
0:06:21 > 0:06:23crimes, war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide,
0:06:23 > 0:06:26are committed on the territory of a state party, the state party
0:06:26 > 0:06:28can actually request.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32So that's one answer you are giving, that the African countries
0:06:32 > 0:06:34themselves said, ICC, we want you to look at this case.
0:06:34 > 0:06:38But it seems however, prosecutor, that some of them are having buyer's
0:06:38 > 0:06:46remorse, these state members.
0:06:46 > 0:06:46I give you one example.
0:06:46 > 0:06:48members, the leaders of the Lord's Resistance Army,
0:06:48 > 0:06:51Joseph Kony and all the other people who have been taking part in these
0:06:52 > 0:06:54awful atrocities in Uganda, to go through the ICC.
0:06:54 > 0:06:56What does Yoweri Museveni say last October?
0:06:56 > 0:06:59Even though he brought the case, he says, the ICC is useless,
0:06:59 > 0:07:02a politicisation of justice and nothing more than a western tool
0:07:02 > 0:07:04designed to humiliate African nations.
0:07:04 > 0:07:09Again, I come to the same response.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12This is not backed by the relevant facts.
0:07:12 > 0:07:22If you look at Uganda, for instance, the fact that Uganda was one
0:07:22 > 0:07:25of the first countries to refer a situation to the ICC,
0:07:25 > 0:07:28and we started our investigations and one of our first investigations
0:07:28 > 0:07:33was in Uganda.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36Five people have been charged in this situation in Uganda.
0:07:36 > 0:07:37We have been working until now.
0:07:37 > 0:07:46Most recently, the case of Dominic Ongwen has been started
0:07:46 > 0:07:48at the ICC, because Dominic Ongwen has surrendered.
0:07:49 > 0:07:50From the Democratic Republic of Congo.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52Dominic Ongwen is one of the commanders of
0:07:52 > 0:07:56the Lord's Resistance Army, and he has been tried from the very
0:07:56 > 0:07:57beginning with the commission of these crimes.
0:07:58 > 0:07:59He now faces trial at the ICC.
0:07:59 > 0:08:00He's from Uganda.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03Of course, this requires that we need a lot of
0:08:03 > 0:08:04cooperation from Uganda.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07You mention Dominic Ongwen, and I'll just bring this up,
0:08:07 > 0:08:11that he was taken as a child soldier at the age of ten,
0:08:11 > 0:08:14so therefore is it really right to try somebody who has
0:08:14 > 0:08:15obviously suffered himself?
0:08:15 > 0:08:17He is a victim.
0:08:17 > 0:08:19Can he now be the perpetrator of evil?
0:08:19 > 0:08:20We obviously recognise that.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23We recognise the fact that, as the defence claims also,
0:08:23 > 0:08:25Dominic Ongwen was abducted when he was below the age,
0:08:25 > 0:08:35and we recognise that.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38If you look at our charges to date that we have brought before
0:08:38 > 0:08:42Dominic Ongwen, it is those charges which he committed as an adult.
0:08:42 > 0:08:46Under the ICC, any crime committed by a person below the age of 18
0:08:46 > 0:08:47cannot be tried before the ICC.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49All the crimes that we've charged Dominic Ongwen,
0:08:49 > 0:08:55that he is alleged to have committed...
0:08:55 > 0:08:56Only as an adult.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59With all respect to you though, prosecutor, Dominic Ongwen,
0:08:59 > 0:09:02yes, I've heard of him, a lot of people have and he's before
0:09:02 > 0:09:05you, but people say, what about the household names
0:09:05 > 0:09:08we all know about who are allegedly carrying out these terrible
0:09:08 > 0:09:10injustices and crimes against humanity -
0:09:10 > 0:09:12the so-called Islamic State, President Bashar al-Assad of Syria?
0:09:12 > 0:09:16We know that there was a terrible civil war going on in Sri Lanka.
0:09:16 > 0:09:19And then you find somebody like Dominic Ongwen and you say,
0:09:19 > 0:09:21we've got him, but what about these other names that
0:09:21 > 0:09:26everybody's heard of?
0:09:26 > 0:09:28Why aren't they before you?
0:09:28 > 0:09:31In the first instance, Dominic Ongwen maybe today is not
0:09:31 > 0:09:58a household name, because we are talking about crimes that have been
0:09:58 > 0:10:01committed over ten years ago, but it's all also a matter
0:10:01 > 0:10:03of jurisdiction, where we have jurisdiction, where the ICC can
0:10:03 > 0:10:05intervene and where it cannot.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08If we talk about Syria today, Syria is not a state party
0:10:08 > 0:10:09to the Rome Statute.
0:10:09 > 0:10:10It doesn't matter.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12You've got countries where they are not members,
0:10:12 > 0:10:15like the Sudan and the president of Sudan, Omar al-Bashir,
0:10:15 > 0:10:15has been indicted.
0:10:16 > 0:10:18I say Syria, because people are saying that there
0:10:18 > 0:10:19is selective justice.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22In 2014, 65 nations called for the Syrian conflict to be
0:10:22 > 0:10:24referred to the court and it was vetoed.
0:10:24 > 0:10:28Let me just come back to the fact that the UN Security Council
0:10:28 > 0:10:29referred the Sudan case to the ICC.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33Can you deal with first of all why we don't have Bashar al-Assad,
0:10:33 > 0:10:34for example, indicted?
0:10:34 > 0:10:37To clarify the fact, indeed, Sudan is not a state party
0:10:37 > 0:10:39to the Rome Statute, and ordinarily we don't have
0:10:39 > 0:10:42territorial jurisdiction, but Sudan was referred to the ICC
0:10:42 > 0:10:45in one of the ways that can be done, through the Security Council.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48But why wasn't Bashar al-Assad, when 65 nations called
0:10:48 > 0:10:50for the Syrian conflict to be referred to the court,
0:10:50 > 0:10:53it was vetoed, wasn't it, by China and Russia?
0:10:53 > 0:10:57This is a question that I think would ideally be asked of the UN
0:10:57 > 0:10:59Security Council.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02But it just shows you that there is selective justice,
0:11:02 > 0:11:04and you are part of that framework.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06Were you upset that Syria wasn't referred?
0:11:06 > 0:11:09I beg to differ that we are part of that process.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12The fact of the matter is, even though the UN Security Council,
0:11:12 > 0:11:15under the Rome Statute, can refer cases to the ICC,
0:11:15 > 0:11:18when these cases come, we subject them to the same test
0:11:18 > 0:11:21as we do, by making sure that crimes have been committed,
0:11:21 > 0:11:24there are allegations about crimes and that all the legal requirements
0:11:24 > 0:11:30are met for us to open an investigation.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32Are you suggesting that President Bashar al-Assad's forces
0:11:33 > 0:11:40have not been guilty of atrocities?
0:11:40 > 0:11:42This is far from what I'm saying.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45What I'm saying is, even if a case is referred by the UN
0:11:45 > 0:11:48Security Council, as Sudan has been done, and Libya,
0:11:48 > 0:11:51we subject them to the same tests and see that legal requirements
0:11:51 > 0:11:53under the Rome Statute are met.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55In the case of Bashar al-Assad, let me be clear.
0:11:55 > 0:11:59We do not go to the UN Security Council to request for any
0:11:59 > 0:12:01case to be referred to the ICC.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04It is the UN Security Council that has been mandated under
0:12:04 > 0:12:06the Rome Statute, and also acting under Chapter Seven,
0:12:06 > 0:12:10that can take the decision.
0:12:10 > 0:12:14But you have a say, you can present a case to the Security Council.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16You can present evidence or you can say, yes,
0:12:16 > 0:12:21we approve of this or not.
0:12:21 > 0:12:22Have you done that?
0:12:23 > 0:12:25No, because, under the Rome Statute, this is not my mandate.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29I can only, when a case has already been referred to the ICC,
0:12:29 > 0:12:32then I can make periodical reports to update the UN Security Council
0:12:32 > 0:12:33on where we are.
0:12:33 > 0:12:36What about allegations of torture by US personnel at Bagram
0:12:36 > 0:12:38airbase in Afghanistan?
0:12:38 > 0:12:41Afghanistan is one of the signatory states to the Rome Statute,
0:12:41 > 0:12:43and it is member of the ICC.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46Would you open formal investigations, for instance?
0:12:46 > 0:12:49To be clear, Afghanistan is a state party to the Rome Statute,
0:12:50 > 0:12:52as signed and ratified, and Afghanistan is one of those
0:12:52 > 0:12:55situations that have been under preliminary examination for some
0:12:55 > 0:13:04time now before my office.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06Including allegations against US personnel.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09And we are looking at allegations of all parties who form part
0:13:09 > 0:13:11of all the warring factions that are in Afghanistan.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13Professor Kevin Heller from London University's School
0:13:13 > 0:13:16of Oriental and African Studies says, the reason this hasn't been
0:13:16 > 0:13:19opened about US personnel as a formal investigation is that
0:13:19 > 0:13:21Fatou Bensouda cannot antagonise the United States.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24Is there any truth in that?
0:13:24 > 0:13:26I just want to be clear.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29My mandate requires me to be impartial and independent,
0:13:29 > 0:13:32and all of the situations that I am looking at,
0:13:32 > 0:13:38I have to demonstrate, and I do demonstrate that I'm acting
0:13:38 > 0:13:41with the utmost impartiality and independence.
0:13:41 > 0:13:44I'm following the evidence and the law and what my mandate
0:13:44 > 0:13:47requires me to do.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50In the case of Afghanistan, as I mentioned to you last year,
0:13:50 > 0:13:54I took out an activities report, which is something that I'd take out
0:13:54 > 0:13:56every year, to update people on situations that are under
0:13:56 > 0:14:02preliminary investigation, and I did say in that report
0:14:02 > 0:14:07there was reasonable basis to believe that the warring factions
0:14:07 > 0:14:09in Afghanistan including the Taliban, including the Afghan
0:14:09 > 0:14:21forces as well as the US forces, there are allegations of commission
0:14:21 > 0:14:24of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and that my office
0:14:24 > 0:14:26is continuing to look into this situation.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30We are at a situation where we have not completed.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32We are currently looking at issues of admissibility,
0:14:32 > 0:14:36and this is a requirement that I have to go through as prosecutor,
0:14:36 > 0:14:39and that's where I am.
0:14:39 > 0:14:43To say that Fatou Bensouda will not do that or will not do another
0:14:43 > 0:14:46because of political considerations does not arrive for me.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49What about Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi?
0:14:49 > 0:14:51You've asked the Libyan government, the authorities
0:14:51 > 0:14:52to hand him over to you.
0:14:53 > 0:14:59What have they said?
0:14:59 > 0:15:02Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi is one of those that we have already,
0:15:02 > 0:15:05that has been indicted by the ICC on the request of the prosecutor,
0:15:05 > 0:15:09and there have been difficulties of getting into the ICC.
0:15:09 > 0:15:10He's at large but in hiding.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13Yes, we have received information recently that he has been released,
0:15:13 > 0:15:18and I have made a statement requesting for Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi
0:15:18 > 0:15:23to be surrendered to the ICC.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26I have also recently met and I'm making various efforts, including
0:15:27 > 0:15:31meeting with the Prime Minister of Libya, Prime Minister Sarraj,
0:15:32 > 0:15:36to request for cooperation and to ask that Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi be
0:15:36 > 0:15:39surrendered to the court to face justice.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42What promises did he make about Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi?
0:15:42 > 0:15:45When might he had him over?
0:15:45 > 0:15:48He has to be apprehended, because he's not in the custody
0:15:48 > 0:15:51of the Libyan government at the moment, at least
0:15:51 > 0:15:54the recognised government.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56What Prime Minister Sarraj has promised is that there
0:15:56 > 0:16:00will be cooperation, a very good level of cooperation
0:16:00 > 0:16:03on the Libya situation generally, broadly speaking, and of course
0:16:03 > 0:16:06efforts will be made to look specifically into this transfer
0:16:06 > 0:16:12and surrender of Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi.
0:16:12 > 0:16:17As I said, he is one of the cases that you are looking at, Libya,
0:16:17 > 0:16:21obviously in Africa, and I have to put it
0:16:21 > 0:16:24to you that the African Union, as you know, said not so long ago
0:16:24 > 0:16:26that the International Criminal Court is basically
0:16:26 > 0:16:28an instrument of race hunting.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30Does it distress you as an African that you hear
0:16:30 > 0:16:33this kind of criticism?
0:16:33 > 0:16:36It's very unfortunate, really.
0:16:36 > 0:16:38This is a court that has enjoyed African support
0:16:38 > 0:16:44from the very beginning.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48The establishment of the ICC, really, Africa has played a big
0:16:48 > 0:16:58role, and those who negotiated the treaty will tell you this.
0:16:58 > 0:17:00Secondly, even if you look at in 2010, for instance,
0:17:00 > 0:17:03when we were looking at the ICC statute itself again,
0:17:03 > 0:17:06and looking at whether there is a need to replace
0:17:06 > 0:17:13anything or to renew, it was in Uganda that we had that.
0:17:13 > 0:17:18Secondly, the president, the current president of the ICC
0:17:18 > 0:17:23Assembly of States Parties, Sidiki Kaba, is a minister
0:17:23 > 0:17:27of justice in Senegal.
0:17:28 > 0:17:30Senegal was the first state to have ratified the Rome Statute.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34Today, the largest block of states in any region is the African bloc.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37But Senegal also tried Hissene Habre, the former president
0:17:37 > 0:17:40of Chad, and that regional justice, that somebody should be tried
0:17:40 > 0:17:43in the continent where they actually committed the atrocities and victims
0:17:43 > 0:17:46and witnesses can all be brought, instead of hauling them
0:17:46 > 0:17:49all the way over to the Hague.
0:17:49 > 0:17:50This is good.
0:17:50 > 0:17:58Just to have a trial, I believe this is good.
0:17:58 > 0:18:02And I think it should be known firstly that ICC does not even have
0:18:02 > 0:18:05jurisdiction over the Habre case, because it occurred before the ICC
0:18:05 > 0:18:09came into existence.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12But even there, we have applauded the efforts that have been made
0:18:12 > 0:18:15at the level of Senegal, but also at the level
0:18:15 > 0:18:18of the African Union that a head of state who has committed these
0:18:18 > 0:18:23atrocities over his people should no longer go.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26So you see that case of Hissene Habre, the former
0:18:26 > 0:18:28president of Chad, is a good one.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31Indeed.
0:18:31 > 0:18:35Because you are the court of last resort, you always make that clear.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38Nevertheless, I put to you that Mark Malloch Brown, who was deputy
0:18:38 > 0:18:42Secretary General under Kofi Annan, said a year ago, the ICC has put
0:18:42 > 0:18:45itself on the wrong side of a PR and political campaign in Africa.
0:18:45 > 0:18:50You do accept that it's a bit of a PR disaster for you.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53You see, one of the first things that I've always said,
0:18:53 > 0:18:56one of the problems that I see that the ICC is confronting
0:18:56 > 0:19:00with all this pushback is a question of really understanding the court,
0:19:00 > 0:19:02knowing what the court can do and what it can't do.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06What is the jurisdiction of the court where it can intervene
0:19:06 > 0:19:07and where it cannot intervene?
0:19:07 > 0:19:11Unfortunately, we do have our core business to conduct,
0:19:11 > 0:19:17which is to investigate and prosecute, but also we have made
0:19:17 > 0:19:20efforts to explain to the court, whether it's in seminars
0:19:20 > 0:19:23or bilaterals, various efforts to explain what the court is about.
0:19:24 > 0:19:25But there are critics of the court.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27There is pushback against the court.
0:19:27 > 0:19:29And these have a whole machinery that they use
0:19:29 > 0:19:31to discredit the court.
0:19:31 > 0:19:33But it's not just about discrediting.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36Isn't that unfair to your critics?
0:19:36 > 0:19:40For example, Laurent Gbagbo, the former president of Ivory Coast,
0:19:40 > 0:19:45who is one of the cases before you, and you are being urged
0:19:45 > 0:19:47by lots of influential people on the continent,
0:19:47 > 0:19:50former African presidents and so on, to say, look, drop the case
0:19:50 > 0:19:53against Laurent Gbagbo because, if found guilty, the country
0:19:53 > 0:19:58could reignite and civil war could return to Ivory Coast.
0:19:58 > 0:20:02Basically, there's an argument there which is saying, please,
0:20:02 > 0:20:05don't necessarily put justice above everything else.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07Peace and stability is important.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11I believe we are very sensitive to that, and we have demonstrated it
0:20:11 > 0:20:13time and time again, to show that it's this debate
0:20:13 > 0:20:15of peace and justice.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18Let's sequence justice.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20Let's do peace and then we do justice.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22I think we should bring back ourselves to a position
0:20:22 > 0:20:27where we know that peace and justice are not mutually exclusive.
0:20:28 > 0:20:29They can actually work together.
0:20:29 > 0:20:31This has been tested.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34I tell you what Thabo Mbeki, former president of South Africa,
0:20:34 > 0:20:39says about the Gbagbo case and Omar al-Bashir and so on,
0:20:39 > 0:20:41"The challenge that arises is when someone says "that the issue
0:20:41 > 0:20:43of justice trumps the issue of peace.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46"While not dismissing the need to tackle impunity,
0:20:46 > 0:20:49"temporary immunity should be granted for key actors in order "to
0:20:49 > 0:20:54secure their engagement in peace."
0:20:54 > 0:20:56Again, I come back to this...
0:20:56 > 0:20:57Do you see the point?
0:20:57 > 0:21:00I definitely see the point that he is trying to make.
0:21:00 > 0:21:04But I also think it is important for those who are negotiating
0:21:04 > 0:21:06for peace to also understand that justice is equally important.
0:21:06 > 0:21:10We have seen time and time again when we have tried to put justice
0:21:10 > 0:21:13away and only deal with peace, just to find out that
0:21:13 > 0:21:20there is a recurrence.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23There is a cycle of violence and it comes again.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27I think it was Kofi Annan who said that there is no
0:21:27 > 0:21:27peace without justice.
0:21:27 > 0:21:28Justice is important.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31It's important.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35Have you achieved that with the ICC?
0:21:35 > 0:21:40I know you've only been in position since 2012 but,
0:21:40 > 0:21:43in 15 years of the ICC's existence, it has cost $1 billion and there
0:21:43 > 0:21:44have been four convictions.
0:21:44 > 0:21:50That's very expensive, slow justice.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53First of all, I want to say that, when you compare justice,
0:21:53 > 0:21:56as you call it, being expensive, when you compare that
0:21:56 > 0:21:59to the suffering of victims, and you compare that to conflicts,
0:21:59 > 0:22:02you compare that to the budget that is given, for instance,
0:22:02 > 0:22:15for defence, I think that justice is very small, when you
0:22:15 > 0:22:16compare all of these.
0:22:16 > 0:22:18That's not even the issue.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21The issue here is the impact that the court has had so far.
0:22:21 > 0:22:23What is the shadow of the court?
0:22:23 > 0:22:26What has the court been able to do?
0:22:26 > 0:22:28I want to ask you that, the final question,
0:22:28 > 0:22:31because you are very interested in women and children
0:22:31 > 0:22:34and the terrible things they have to go through in conflict,
0:22:34 > 0:22:36rape as a tool of war and so on.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38Have you made them any safer?
0:22:38 > 0:22:40Have the ICC made them any safer?
0:22:40 > 0:22:43I believe the ICC have made it safer by, first and foremost,
0:22:43 > 0:22:45highlighting the issue of the vulnerability of both women
0:22:45 > 0:22:46and children during conflict.
0:22:46 > 0:22:56We do know, and conflict has shown us time and time over,
0:22:56 > 0:22:59we know that they are the most vulnerable in a time of conflict,
0:22:59 > 0:23:02and we have seen horrible crimes, sexual and gender-based crimes,
0:23:02 > 0:23:04being made against women, against girls, against
0:23:04 > 0:23:07boys and against men.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11So what I did, one of the first priorities I set for my office
0:23:11 > 0:23:21was to say that I'm going to highlight this crime.
0:23:21 > 0:23:28I'm going to lend significance to this crime, and also to make sure
0:23:28 > 0:23:32that I have a clear and a very transparent policy on how
0:23:32 > 0:23:36we are going to investigate these crimes, how we are going to lend
0:23:36 > 0:23:39focus to it, how we are going to integrate it
0:23:39 > 0:23:52in all aspects of our work.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55And also, perhaps, be able to get states themselves at the national,
0:23:55 > 0:23:58domestic level to take example of what we have done.
0:23:58 > 0:24:06This policy, of course, is now out.
0:24:06 > 0:24:09I think it's something that we can be very proud of.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11Also, talking about children, I've made a policy on children,
0:24:11 > 0:24:14not only those forced to carry arms, not only those children,
0:24:15 > 0:24:17but those who are also affected by conflict.
0:24:17 > 0:24:18So that policy is also out there.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22Fatou Bensouda, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDTalk.
0:24:22 > 0:24:23Thank you for having me.