:00:00. > :00:12.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:13. > :00:18.Nigeria's stability and unity is threatened by internal tensions,
:00:19. > :00:22.conflict and corruption, from the Boko Haram insurgency
:00:23. > :00:25.in the north to violent militancy in the south and separatist
:00:26. > :00:37.Amid all this turmoil, how effective in securing the country as the
:00:38. > :00:40.Nigerian army? My guest is army chief,
:00:41. > :00:51.Lieutenant General Tukur Yusuf By his force is playing a
:00:52. > :00:54.constructive or destructive role as Nigeria tries to keep a lid on its
:00:55. > :01:15.problems -- are his forces? General Tukur Yusuf Buratai,
:01:16. > :01:26.welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you, Stephen. A couple of
:01:27. > :01:32.years ago your President, new president, set you a clear mission
:01:33. > :01:37.to eradicate Boko Haram. He said it could be done within months. It
:01:38. > :01:41.would be fair to say, would it not, that you have failed in that
:01:42. > :01:54.mission? We have not failed. We have achieved that particular mandate, as
:01:55. > :02:01.at that time. We were... Appointed on the 10th of July, and on the day
:02:02. > :02:10.of our decoration, we were given that mandate to end Boko Haram by
:02:11. > :02:19.the end of December of 2015. And we set out to work. And... Yes, well,
:02:20. > :02:23.I'm going to stop you and try to make this as as simple as possible.
:02:24. > :02:27.As you say, by December 2015 there were claims coming from both the
:02:28. > :02:32.military and from the presidency that Iran had been eliminated. At
:02:33. > :02:38.those claims, as we have seen over the last 18 months, were completely
:02:39. > :02:42.wrong. No, no. Eliminated... I don't think anybody had said Boko Haram
:02:43. > :02:50.has been eliminated. We know terrorism globally is... Well,
:02:51. > :02:56.forgive me, I am looking at a direct quote, President Buhari, December
:02:57. > :03:00.2015, the insurgency has been technically defeated. So it doesn't
:03:01. > :03:04.mean eliminated. And a military official, we can beat our chest and
:03:05. > :03:09.decisively say we have dealt with Boko Haram. Yes. Well, come on,
:03:10. > :03:13.let's be clear. You haven't dealt with Boko Haram. I don't know how
:03:14. > :03:16.many details only to give you a recent incidents. Let's look at this
:03:17. > :03:27.perspective. Terrorism is something that, you know, is resilient, all
:03:28. > :03:31.right? Today we have gained tremendously. Tremendous successes
:03:32. > :03:37.have been achieved. Take for example, at the time we were
:03:38. > :03:46.appointed, take for example Borno state, where terrorism incidents is
:03:47. > :03:50.most Boko Haram terrorists. How many local areas were under their
:03:51. > :03:56.control? Where there are not any presence of government authority in
:03:57. > :03:59.that location. But it is not just a question of how many square miles of
:04:00. > :04:02.territory that you have recovered. It is also a question of whether the
:04:03. > :04:05.people of that particular region of your country are still being
:04:06. > :04:09.terrorised. I've just been looking at the figures. Just a couple of
:04:10. > :04:17.months ago, 18 girls were abducted from close to the Cameroon border, a
:04:18. > :04:20.village. Newsweek magazine of Nigeria has calculator they think
:04:21. > :04:24.within the first six months of this year there were 48 different Boko
:04:25. > :04:28.Haram attacks. You may have taken a lot of territory back, but you
:04:29. > :04:34.haven't managed to end the reign of terror. Well, look at what we have
:04:35. > :04:46.on the ground. Before May 2015, the Boko Haram were even in Abuja. They
:04:47. > :04:51.were Ian Kano. They had penetrated into the south, we had to stop them.
:04:52. > :05:00.And for the past years, we have not had attacks in Abuja, or Kano, or
:05:01. > :05:04.any other places. Even closer, where there were several attacks, we never
:05:05. > :05:12.had it. Now they are all concentrated within certain areas in
:05:13. > :05:15.Borno state. But the UN agencies say that's still the scale of the
:05:16. > :05:19.insecurity is such that the displaced peoples cannot come back.
:05:20. > :05:23.We know that the real threat of hunger, malnutrition and famine
:05:24. > :05:29.exists, and in security is a huge part of that. So you, as the head of
:05:30. > :05:31.the army, still, surely, have to accept that, far from being
:05:32. > :05:41.complete, your mission has barely begun. Well, that is where we now
:05:42. > :05:48.look at the reconstruction aspect. And we have to see the return of the
:05:49. > :05:53.civil Administration, the return of the law and order agencies, the
:05:54. > :06:03.police, all right. And this is what we are working at. If you talk in
:06:04. > :06:07.terms of military action, military action, militarily, Boko Haram have
:06:08. > :06:12.been defeated. One of the element of restoring stability, peace and order
:06:13. > :06:18.to the region most affected by Boko Haram is winning the trust of the
:06:19. > :06:21.ordinary people. Yes. How can the local bee will be confident when, as
:06:22. > :06:25.Amnesty International reported in their most recent report in February
:06:26. > :06:29.this year, the military is arbitrarily arresting thousands of
:06:30. > :06:33.young men, women and children, based simply on profiling, they say. They
:06:34. > :06:40.are being put into detention facilities like the barracks in
:06:41. > :06:44.Maiduguri, I'm quoting amnesty, forgive me, but it is quite long.
:06:45. > :06:48.The cells are crowded, disease, starvation was rife, at least 240
:06:49. > :06:55.detainees died during the last year. Bodies were secretly buried in
:06:56. > :06:59.Maiduguri Cemetery by the Borno state environmental protection
:07:00. > :07:04.agency. That is a scandal. It is shocking, and how can you possibly
:07:05. > :07:10.defended? Well, it is interesting. But let me tell you, we have been
:07:11. > :07:24.vindicated. The special enquiry that was set up, you know, by the army,
:07:25. > :07:34.headed by independent personality, a retired general, has clearly stated
:07:35. > :07:38.that whatever comes out of... You know, within the detention
:07:39. > :07:44.facilities, these are things that are likely to, are bound to happen
:07:45. > :07:47.everywhere. And you look at... Now with this outbreak of diseases. The
:07:48. > :07:55.board of enquiry was headed up I retired general. President Buhari
:07:56. > :08:00.promised many months ago that there would be an independent
:08:01. > :08:07.investigation. There has been no independent investigation. Well,
:08:08. > :08:12.this is still in the process. It is a promise, I believe it will be
:08:13. > :08:16.kept. Why has there not been an independent investigation? I cannot
:08:17. > :08:21.give that reason. But if you want the confidence of the people of
:08:22. > :08:25.Borno state, and the other parts of your country, surely the most basic
:08:26. > :08:33.thing is to hold your own forces to account. When we are holding them
:08:34. > :08:37.accountable, we have a standing, as far as the military operations are
:08:38. > :08:40.concerned, we have a standing court-martial which is responsible
:08:41. > :08:49.for trying any of our offices that have been found wanting in following
:08:50. > :08:57.military justice system. And some of them have been, you know, convicted
:08:58. > :09:02.of the violation of some other crimes. Amnesty named nine
:09:03. > :09:08.individuals, offices, who they say should face the most serious
:09:09. > :09:14.investigation and criminal indictment. How many of those nine
:09:15. > :09:23.are still serving today in your forces? Well, I don't know of any of
:09:24. > :09:27.those nine, precisely. Is the answer that all of them are still serving?
:09:28. > :09:32.You haven't actually remove any of them. The point is, as far as we are
:09:33. > :09:39.concerned, we have stated the case against them. All right? And the
:09:40. > :09:44.enquiry had done its work and found out that those were not directly
:09:45. > :09:49.links. The internal, but to be honest I am less on Dominic
:09:50. > :09:52.interested in your internal investigation, I am interested in
:09:53. > :09:57.the external investigation which has not happened. That one was that of
:09:58. > :10:00.the allegations have not been substantiated. Those are mere
:10:01. > :10:07.allegations, and they have been substantiated. They were told to the
:10:08. > :10:11.officers. Let me ask you your reaction to a report just issued by
:10:12. > :10:15.the United States government which says that there is evidence, this is
:10:16. > :10:18.in their trafficking in Persons report, that they put out every
:10:19. > :10:24.year, evidence that the Nigerian army has been exploiting children,
:10:25. > :10:30.quote, using children as young as 12 years old in support roles. Is that
:10:31. > :10:36.true? Well, it is not true. If you ask me directly in my personal
:10:37. > :10:42.capacity, ... Well, I am asking you as head of the army, not in your
:10:43. > :10:46.personal capacity. OK, you see, there are competitions in such
:10:47. > :10:51.issues. How do you determine a child who is 12 years? I am not saying we
:10:52. > :10:58.are employing a child to be used as, you know, in civilian duties... You
:10:59. > :11:04.should simply not be playing children. We are not, I am saying,
:11:05. > :11:08.we are not. All right, we are not. But the United States as you are, I
:11:09. > :11:13.could go on. There are more. The Nigerian Security Council has
:11:14. > :11:17.continued to detain and arrest children for alleged association
:11:18. > :11:21.with Boko Haram. So not only are you employing children in support roles,
:11:22. > :11:24.which the US says is completely wrong, you are also consistently and
:11:25. > :11:40.systematically detaining and arresting children. You see, there
:11:41. > :11:43.are clear lines, OK? We have what we refer to the international
:11:44. > :11:48.humanitarian law, the law of armed conflicts, OK? We very much know
:11:49. > :11:56.these rules. The best international practices. There is no way the
:11:57. > :12:03.Nigerian army will pick a child and get him employed and serve anywhere.
:12:04. > :12:07.This is an allegation. Yes, the United States is a partner and an
:12:08. > :12:12.ally, but they during the Obama administration stopped selling new
:12:13. > :12:15.weapons because of all of these allegations of abuses by your
:12:16. > :12:20.security forces. Does it not trouble you... In the same Amnesty
:12:21. > :12:26.International report, that they are relying on, in the same amnesty
:12:27. > :12:29.report, they made a recommendation to the Obama administration, that
:12:30. > :12:33.certain weapons and so on should not be sold to the Nigerian government.
:12:34. > :12:39.But you see, when you talk of terrorism, it's a responsibility at
:12:40. > :12:45.a global level, every nation should be responsible to see that this
:12:46. > :12:49.terrorism is defeated globally. So if you... Let me ask you, if I may,
:12:50. > :12:52.I have dealt with some of the allegations of abuses against your
:12:53. > :12:56.forces. There is one particular story which grab attention, a huge
:12:57. > :13:02.amount of Simba the other time, 2013. The Chibok school was raided
:13:03. > :13:06.by Boko Haram militants. They took away more than 200 schoolgirls. Ever
:13:07. > :13:10.since there has been a huge focus on getting those girls back. Now, in
:13:11. > :13:15.the recent past we saw, I believe, 82 were freed. First of all, what
:13:16. > :13:25.deal did you do to get those 82 girls back? As far as the release of
:13:26. > :13:32.those 82 Chibok girls are concerned, we performed our role, where we
:13:33. > :13:39.provided the safe passage, you know, for those that have been released.
:13:40. > :13:46.Did you release Boko Haram militants in return? I did not release, but
:13:47. > :13:50.the government... It is a government decision, it is not an army
:13:51. > :13:53.responsibility. Were you aware that five senior militants, Boko Haram
:13:54. > :13:58.fighters, were released from prison? That is the report, OK? That is the
:13:59. > :13:59.report. As a military man, what message you believe that sends the
:14:00. > :14:08.Boko Haram? Astra that is a military decision,
:14:09. > :14:15.not a political decision. In the best interests of the country, did
:14:16. > :14:22.the government bail, yes. That is the best course. Do you think it was
:14:23. > :14:28.regrettable? Personally, I don't think... It has its own advantage.
:14:29. > :14:36.There are probably some other disadvantages but it does have
:14:37. > :14:42.advantages. The message is quite clear to Boko Haram leadership, that
:14:43. > :14:45.if they can take more schoolgirls, more innocent civilians and demand
:14:46. > :14:50.in return for their release, the release of people in your
:14:51. > :14:54.presence... That is, given the chance to do that, that is if they
:14:55. > :14:59.are given the chance. I don't believe they would have that chance
:15:00. > :15:04.to have mass abductions as they were doing before. Let us talk about one
:15:05. > :15:10.other region where there has been instability. The Niger Delta. We
:15:11. > :15:16.have seen militants loosely coalesced around a group called
:15:17. > :15:21.MIND. It is causing real instability. There was a government
:15:22. > :15:25.programme to buy out some of those militant leaders. I think it's cost
:15:26. > :15:29.the government will ever $100 million in various forms of
:15:30. > :15:35.financial recompense to some of the militants themselves. It hasn't
:15:36. > :15:44.worked, has it? Well, I believe it has worked. Why did oil production
:15:45. > :15:48.fall by one third in 2016? There are criminal activities by certain
:15:49. > :15:52.individuals... The same sort of attacks on oil installations that
:15:53. > :15:59.were supposed to be ended by all this compensation money. Well, arm,
:16:00. > :16:07.that is why you still have a lot of criminal activities, not only in the
:16:08. > :16:12.Niger Delta. For all of your insurances, both you as a military
:16:13. > :16:18.man, assurances that you are on top of the security situation. , the
:16:19. > :16:31.truth on the ground is that you are not. We are, we are, we are in firm
:16:32. > :16:35.control. Security, when you look at it, globally, this is something you
:16:36. > :16:41.continue to tackle as it arises. You continue to tackle. We can wake up
:16:42. > :16:45.and wish that all security challenges are gone and even here in
:16:46. > :16:51.the UK, other parts of the world will continue to have these
:16:52. > :16:57.challenges. Go to other parts of your up and so on, you have those
:16:58. > :17:04.challenges. We continue to face these traits and address them as
:17:05. > :17:06.they arise. I talked, from the beginning of this interview, about
:17:07. > :17:10.the degree of trust and confidence Nigerians have in the military on
:17:11. > :17:14.the ground and we talked about different regions and URS shoring me
:17:15. > :17:18.that your men are doing the best in difficult circumstances but one of
:17:19. > :17:25.the overarching problems Nigeria faces and I imagine you would agree,
:17:26. > :17:30.is corruption. A recent report from Transparency International says
:17:31. > :17:33.Nigerian military officers as well as politicians, have been enriching
:17:34. > :17:40.themselves by diverging money that was supposed to go to the security
:17:41. > :17:48.forces fight against terror. Some cases are already in court. Some are
:17:49. > :17:51.still being investigated. I think the courts will handle them
:17:52. > :17:58.appropriately and the investigating agencies will also go to that,
:17:59. > :18:02.investigators much as possible. So is head of the army, you tolerate
:18:03. > :18:05.the fact that still, today, according to Transparency
:18:06. > :18:09.International, there are ghost soldiers on your payroll who are
:18:10. > :18:14.being fictitious we created by senior officers while pocketing
:18:15. > :18:21.their salaries. It's not true. Since the advent of this administration,
:18:22. > :18:28.they have introduced what they call an integrated personnel pay system,
:18:29. > :18:36.and we have made our payrolls computerised. Everyone with
:18:37. > :18:51.biometrics, we did that long ago, in 2013, around 2013. Military pay in
:18:52. > :18:57.Nigeria is not that high, is it? One is relative also. In US dollar
:18:58. > :19:06.terms, what do you earn roughly? And I ask this in the spirit of
:19:07. > :19:09.transparency because Mr Buhari another politicians... I am paid by
:19:10. > :19:13.the government, so the right question should go to the
:19:14. > :19:18.government... But you are public official on a salary. How come then
:19:19. > :19:24.that you yourself own to substantial properties in Dubai? This is not
:19:25. > :19:28.true, it is all fake. They are in the name of your wife that they are
:19:29. > :19:33.your family properties. It is not true. Listen, listen, substantial
:19:34. > :19:38.property. What is substantial property? This is an investment.
:19:39. > :19:45.It's not true. They are worth well over $1 million US. It's not true.
:19:46. > :19:48.How much are they work? Because the anti-corruption campaign in your
:19:49. > :19:54.country says it is an outrage that you have these properties. There is
:19:55. > :20:01.no way you can afford these assets from your salary so Nigerians want
:20:02. > :20:05.to know where you get the money? It is a stereotype. My family is into
:20:06. > :20:17.other businesses. They do their own private businesses. We are
:20:18. > :20:22.investing. The family has not even into those properties. On the
:20:23. > :20:30.frontline, there soldiers working for you, you are the commander of
:20:31. > :20:33.the Nigerian army. They want pitiful wages and according to various
:20:34. > :20:39.different independent analyses, not least from the United States, they
:20:40. > :20:42.are very poorly resourced and poorly armed in the fight against Boko
:20:43. > :20:46.Haram. How would they feel learning that you and your family owned these
:20:47. > :20:52.properties in Dubai? Which type of property? You know very well. The
:20:53. > :20:56.code of conduct bureau actually ran an investigation into your
:20:57. > :21:00.properties and in the end, they said it was OK, you declared the assets
:21:01. > :21:05.but don't tell me you don't know about them. The type of property we
:21:06. > :21:12.are talking is not the one that you think, that most people are saying.
:21:13. > :21:17.It is not a house. It is a timeshare property that you invest in two. The
:21:18. > :21:24.question remains, how do you think your guys on the front line who are
:21:25. > :21:35.poorly resourced... When was it bought into? These properties? It is
:21:36. > :21:43.your property. As far back as 2013. People are using these properties
:21:44. > :21:46.today. When the human rights lawyer says that you should resign because
:21:47. > :21:56.your explanation of where you got the money bomb is... It's my family.
:21:57. > :22:01.OK. Final question. We have catalogued the different challenges
:22:02. > :22:05.your security forces face and your political leadership. One of the
:22:06. > :22:09.problems is that your president is very seriously ill. I believe he is
:22:10. > :22:12.still here in London although the Nigerian people seem confused about
:22:13. > :22:17.where he is and what his condition is. Can you as head of the army tell
:22:18. > :22:24.me what is going on? This is a private issue. I don't have any
:22:25. > :22:28.comment on that. But earlier this year, you did warn anyone, either in
:22:29. > :22:33.the military or anywhere else, who was thinking of using this period of
:22:34. > :22:37.instability to sort of launch a leadership bid or play politics
:22:38. > :22:41.within the military. You want them off it. You are clearly worried that
:22:42. > :22:49.their readers, at the moment, a bit of a vacuum at the top. There is no
:22:50. > :22:56.vacuum. Sort of an empty warning. In terms of what transpired before this
:22:57. > :23:00.Administration came on board. Why did you issue that warning? Did you
:23:01. > :23:04.sensed there were some in the Armed Forces who might be pursuing
:23:05. > :23:16.political ambitions? It is good once in a while to tell officers that
:23:17. > :23:20.there are bounds that we must remain within, constitutional boundaries
:23:21. > :23:25.that we have been assigned. General, just a final question. How long can
:23:26. > :23:29.this situation continued where Nigeria's president is not able to
:23:30. > :23:34.be in the country and certainly not able to offer the country
:23:35. > :23:38.leadership? He is physically unable. There are constitutional provisions.
:23:39. > :23:46.There is never a vacuum. What has happened, we have an -- we have an
:23:47. > :23:52.active president. Events are happening, he will get stronger and
:23:53. > :24:00.go back home, that is the only way. There is never a vacuum and they
:24:01. > :24:05.should be no cause for concern. General Buratai, I thank you very
:24:06. > :24:07.much for being on HARDtalk. You're welcome, Stephen.