:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk with me, as an Dali. President Trump is meeting his
:00:20. > :00:22.fellow leaders of the G20 summit in Hamburg this week when big issues
:00:23. > :00:26.like International Trade and climate change will be on the agenda. My
:00:27. > :00:33.guest is the progressive Canadian and American writer and activist
:00:34. > :00:39.Naomi Klein and she says that Donald Trump's becoming president amounts
:00:40. > :00:43.to a corporate takeover by Brand Trump and is calling for mass
:00:44. > :01:14.protest against it. Are her radical policies a panacea against the
:01:15. > :01:23.current ills in the United States? Naomi Klein, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:24. > :01:28.You have just written a new book, No Is Not Enough. Is it liberal
:01:29. > :01:31.critique of Donald Trump? I am try to concentrate less on Donald Trump
:01:32. > :01:35.the personality, the personality, the extremist, the shock machine
:01:36. > :01:39.that has everybody gusting with his tweets and put him into the context
:01:40. > :01:46.really off the last 40 years of economic history and how we arrived
:01:47. > :01:50.here. In this culture where we have had the chance of lifestyle brands
:01:51. > :01:53.and we have humans merging with corporations, we worship wealth,
:01:54. > :01:58.consumption is a way of life. We have dominance raised logic on our
:01:59. > :02:06.economy at every level so Trump makes sense and I want to put him in
:02:07. > :02:12.context. In what way does he represent all that? As you say, he
:02:13. > :02:17.has become a 1-man mega brand with his children and wife spin-off
:02:18. > :02:22.brands. He breathes brands within his family. This is the first time
:02:23. > :02:26.we have had a political figure of this stature who is a fully
:02:27. > :02:31.commercialised superbrand. The Trump Corporation is built around his
:02:32. > :02:35.personality so it isn't just that he has refused to divest from his
:02:36. > :02:39.business would be -- which would be problematic enough, the business is
:02:40. > :02:48.Trump. This relates to that first book I ever wrote which is No Logo
:02:49. > :02:52.and the brands in the 90s was less about selling and making products
:02:53. > :02:59.and more about building ideas and then creating these branded cocooned
:03:00. > :03:04.lifestyles and Donald Trump did that. He started off building
:03:05. > :03:12.buildings and then he just started building Brand Trump especially
:03:13. > :03:16.after he had the Apprenticed. His brand employs 34,000 people. A lot
:03:17. > :03:22.of people that are reliant on his organisation. I don't see what that
:03:23. > :03:28.has to do with... He is more than a brand. Look, the people who make
:03:29. > :03:33.most of the buildings that they are the Trump logo are not employed
:03:34. > :03:41.direct league by Trump. His main business model is to build his name
:03:42. > :03:45.-- directly. There is a figure from last year's C N N Money. They looked
:03:46. > :03:51.into the whole Trump organisation and that is the figure they came up
:03:52. > :03:57.with. What are you saying, that he doesn't build... He leases Brand
:03:58. > :04:07.Trump. To say there is 34,000 employees under the Trump brand. --I
:04:08. > :04:12.am just saying. Is he more than a brand in that he stands for
:04:13. > :04:17.policies, very clear policies and he taps into the zeitgeist when he
:04:18. > :04:21.says, look, I'm not happy about globalisation. He said, in
:04:22. > :04:27.particular about globalisation in June last year, it makes that elite
:04:28. > :04:32.very wealthy that has left millions of our workers with nothing but
:04:33. > :04:37.poverty and heartache. He is not the only political figure on the right
:04:38. > :04:40.that is tapping into huge levels of dissatisfaction around corporate
:04:41. > :04:44.globalisation. Marine Le Pen is doing the same in France and the
:04:45. > :04:49.Brexit campaign in the UK tapped into that same energy and he ran on
:04:50. > :04:53.this campaign to bring back jobs, to stand up for the working class. What
:04:54. > :04:57.he is doing in power is very, very different and that's why as you said
:04:58. > :05:07.in your introduction, I said this is a takeover. Not just a brand Trump
:05:08. > :05:10.but ExxonMobil that is taking -- taking over... Rex Tillerson lived
:05:11. > :05:17.at ExxonMobil for his entire adult life. After campaigning against
:05:18. > :05:21.Goldman Sachs and Wall Street, accusing his Republican rivals like
:05:22. > :05:26.Ted Cruz of the same, Trump has turned around and appointed five
:05:27. > :05:30.former Goldman Sachs executives to his Cabinet which is unprecedented.
:05:31. > :05:33.So you are saying the money is associated with Donald Trump.
:05:34. > :05:37.Eleanor Forte in saying is where he is governing is quite different to
:05:38. > :05:43.the way he campaigned. There was a political brand called Make America
:05:44. > :05:47.Great Again. What he has done is pushing policies that systematically
:05:48. > :05:52.read is to be at wealth to the 1% of the 1%. He is doing it with tax
:05:53. > :05:55.policy and infrastructure plans, healthcare, social security. That is
:05:56. > :05:59.not what he campaigned on. Interesting you bring up the
:06:00. > :06:02.campaign when you say that's not what he campaigned on because the
:06:03. > :06:07.Democratic candidate, Hillary Clinton, spent billion on his
:06:08. > :06:11.campaign -- her campaign and Donald Trump spent $600 million. If you
:06:12. > :06:14.look at your argument, just looking at the campaign, it would seem that
:06:15. > :06:22.big money flowed more to the Democratic candidate. That is not my
:06:23. > :06:27.argument. That is a point to make, though, isn't it? You can make that
:06:28. > :06:32.point. Hillary Clinton paved the way for Donald Trump, as I said in the
:06:33. > :06:43.book. He did not win the election but she lost at the election. This
:06:44. > :06:48.golden throne was not going to be a saviour to the working class will
:06:49. > :06:53.stop he won because the Democrats were not able to energise their base
:06:54. > :06:57.and that is why I say no, it's not enough. It is not enough to critique
:06:58. > :07:03.trump. They have to be an economic project on the progressive side that
:07:04. > :07:09.speaks to the need for jobs and security that Trump was speaking to.
:07:10. > :07:11.He was selling lies. One thing he has done is paid up the
:07:12. > :07:17.Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement because he thinks that trade has not
:07:18. > :07:27.served the United States well and says he wants to renegotiate
:07:28. > :07:31.Nafta... To make it more like TTIP. He taps into the zeitgeist and has
:07:32. > :07:35.criticised countries like Japan and Germany because they have huge trade
:07:36. > :07:40.surpluses. He was to bring jobs to the United States. Well, he says
:07:41. > :07:47.that, he says that. If we look at what he is doing, he will actually
:07:48. > :07:51.end up driving down wages. His secretary has been out there
:07:52. > :07:55.reassuring business audience is that when they renegotiate Nafta, they
:07:56. > :07:58.are going to do to make it more like the Trans-Pacific Partnership which
:07:59. > :08:03.is exactly what Trump campaigned against. Of course, he raised these
:08:04. > :08:06.hopes but I don't believe he is going to bring the jobs back and
:08:07. > :08:11.support middle-class lifestyles. He did it to get elected and it was a
:08:12. > :08:15.resonant promise but that is wide my argument is that Progressives need
:08:16. > :08:18.to step up into this moment with a real 21st-century jobs programme and
:08:19. > :08:22.I'm passionate about climate change and the fact that we need jobs that
:08:23. > :08:26.are going to support middle-class families and working-class families
:08:27. > :08:29.but also bring in missions down very, very quickly and luckily we
:08:30. > :08:33.can do this, we can create huge numbers of jobs in efficiency,
:08:34. > :08:40.public transport, renewable energy. This is the future, not creating
:08:41. > :08:45.more coal and weapons jobs. Even if they might not be as well played as
:08:46. > :08:50.-- paid as you might like, at least he wants to bring jobs back. I know
:08:51. > :08:54.you say in your book that buries outsourcing in Trump's organisations
:08:55. > :09:01.but... -- and various. He wants to bring back some labour. You have to
:09:02. > :09:05.accept that time I tell if he does do that. He is saying that free
:09:06. > :09:08.trade isn't all it is cracked up to be an error people worried about
:09:09. > :09:13.protectionism now when the US and so on. Absolutely. I am saying there
:09:14. > :09:17.must be some things that you agree with him on. What I say is the
:09:18. > :09:21.reason that Donald Trump and the Brexit campaign and Marine Le Pen
:09:22. > :09:24.have been able to be as successful as they have been is because this
:09:25. > :09:30.terrain which is right that -- rightfully progressive has been
:09:31. > :09:34.seeded because centrist parties that originally opposed these trade deals
:09:35. > :09:38.ended up negotiating them and advancing them further. Bill Clinton
:09:39. > :09:42.and this is a huge reason why Hillary Clinton was not trusted a
:09:43. > :09:47.mug working-class families in America is that Bill Clinton
:09:48. > :09:56.promised to renegotiate the whole agreement of Nafta and ended up
:09:57. > :09:59.pushing to agenda much further. -- trusted among working-class
:10:00. > :10:05.families. This is why we have seen a wave of support for figures like
:10:06. > :10:12.Jeremy Cameron and Bernie Sanders who stand for a more progressive
:10:13. > :10:20.economic policy. There is some overlap between progressive voices
:10:21. > :10:28.such as yours and what Donald Trump is pushing. Jelinek there is
:10:29. > :10:37.overlap, of course. But -- there overlap. We ignore the impact of
:10:38. > :10:41.communities and hid behind trade deals that were better for companies
:10:42. > :10:48.than workers." Donald Trump has opened up the space where you have
:10:49. > :10:56.people saying these things. Saying things. He has opened debate amongst
:10:57. > :11:00.senior corporate figures. Absolutely, there is a shifting
:11:01. > :11:04.political ground and that is happening for a variety of reasons.
:11:05. > :11:08.The economic project that began under Reagan and Thatcher has been
:11:09. > :11:16.in crisis since the 2008 crash. There is a vacuum. Where the
:11:17. > :11:20.ideological project as privatisation and corporate free-trade deals used
:11:21. > :11:25.to be. On the right you have these populist figures who are coming in
:11:26. > :11:28.and mixing a feeling that economic decisions are all being made by
:11:29. > :11:32.these remote bureaucracies which is true, that economic conditions are
:11:33. > :11:38.becoming more and more precarious and mixing it up with xenophobia and
:11:39. > :11:42.racism and misogyny. You have populist sentiment on the right-wing
:11:43. > :11:51.and argument -- arguably Donald Trump is a populist from the centre
:11:52. > :12:00.right. You mentioned Jeremy Corbyn and arguably you yourself. There is
:12:01. > :12:06.common ground is what I am saying. Buries ground, certainly, in this
:12:07. > :12:16.tapping in of the anti- establishment feeling out there. --
:12:17. > :12:19.There is. But surely you can't say I don't need any of Wall Street's
:12:20. > :12:25.money and then bringing in five Goldman Sachs people into your
:12:26. > :12:28.cabinet. What I am saying is we can't just expose... It is so
:12:29. > :12:32.obvious to expose that Donald Trump is a fraud but the real issue is
:12:33. > :12:36.what our Progressives go to do in the US? This is a real concern
:12:37. > :12:40.because this is a malleable moment. There is a moment now, especially
:12:41. > :12:46.with what we are seeing with healthcare, there planned to replace
:12:47. > :12:51.Obama Kate is to keep millions of people off their health insurance
:12:52. > :12:55.coverage. -- ObamaCare. At this moment, we are seeing a rise in
:12:56. > :13:01.interest in single-payer healthcare but who is blocking that the state
:13:02. > :13:05.the Democrats. This is why the road to Donald Trump is not one we can
:13:06. > :13:08.just pin on the rest of us that Republican side of the political
:13:09. > :13:13.argument. You have mentioned twice that he is associated with big money
:13:14. > :13:15.and so want that some of the most greatly admired figures in the
:13:16. > :13:19.United States and Europe are extremely wealthy, usually men. You
:13:20. > :13:24.have all gates who was applauded for his efforts in tackling tropical
:13:25. > :13:32.diseases -- Bill Gates. You have Richard Branson with whom the rat --
:13:33. > :13:38.Barack Obama holidayed with reach -- recently. What is the matter if
:13:39. > :13:42.these people have a great deal of money if they use it for the public
:13:43. > :13:46.good? The argument I'd make is that that whole idea that we can
:13:47. > :13:52.outsource the most pressing problems that we face as global citizens,
:13:53. > :13:59.whether it is climate change or infectious diseases, whether it is
:14:00. > :14:03.poverty itself, to, rather than doing this with democracies, with
:14:04. > :14:10.accountability, we are going to hand it over to, as you say, Bill Gates,
:14:11. > :14:18.Richard Branson... I wasn't going -- saying that. You said that Bill
:14:19. > :14:22.Gates... I didn't say that. Nobody said that Bill Gates can help fix
:14:23. > :14:27.Africa but his efforts need to be a applauded. Sellar don't have that
:14:28. > :14:30.robber with charity but at the moment the Gates foundation has
:14:31. > :14:34.arguably more power than the World Health Organization and many people
:14:35. > :14:39.who work within the UN system talk about being absolutely stunned by
:14:40. > :14:42.the amount of power wielded by private, unaccountable wealth. This
:14:43. > :14:45.is something I have written about in the past with Richard Branson and
:14:46. > :14:51.the wild claims he has made about how he is going to use his billions
:14:52. > :14:52.from fossil fuel burning to fix climate change and there is no
:14:53. > :15:02.accountability for that money. Are you saying we should do away
:15:03. > :15:06.with philanthropy? Tax them at a fair level and use that money
:15:07. > :15:11.democratically to solve problems collectively. That logic created a
:15:12. > :15:16.situation where we acquainted great wealth with great wisdom. If you
:15:17. > :15:19.make money in software it must mean you know everything about
:15:20. > :15:24.everything, health, agriculture. That created a context for Donald
:15:25. > :15:28.Trump to save, vote for me, I don't know anything about governing and I
:15:29. > :15:34.have never held public office but I am so rich - this was his pitch...
:15:35. > :15:40.He has surrounded himself with other rich people, he has aged McMaster,
:15:41. > :15:44.National Security Advisor. He has outsourced the government to his
:15:45. > :15:48.son-in-law. You say he has outsourced half of the government. I
:15:49. > :15:53.have to say he was criticised for not appointing enough people. 5% of
:15:54. > :15:59.556 Federal positions have been filled, which means... They don't
:16:00. > :16:04.believe in government. So many others haven't. He argues against
:16:05. > :16:08.the fact that you say there is a grand, master plan. It could be
:16:09. > :16:13.more... Steve Bannon has been open about the master plan. He said the
:16:14. > :16:16.goal is to deconstruct the administrative state and that is why
:16:17. > :16:20.they have appointed people to head up government agencies who don't
:16:21. > :16:26.believe in the existence it of those government agencies. This is true
:16:27. > :16:30.for energy, the EPA, education, Betsy Davos doesn't believe in
:16:31. > :16:35.public education. He won't get anything done if he hasn't filled
:16:36. > :16:39.550 positions. They don't believe in government. There is a grand master
:16:40. > :16:43.plan and that is the same we have lived in for 40 years, which is what
:16:44. > :16:46.Reagan said, government isn't the solution, it is the problem. It is
:16:47. > :16:50.Margaret Thatcher's vision that there is no such thing as this
:16:51. > :16:55.society. Donald Trump went before the people and said he would protect
:16:56. > :16:59.healthcare and social security and it is finishing the job that Reagan
:17:00. > :17:04.and Thatcher started. Margaret Thatcher believed in a community of
:17:05. > :17:07.communities, that society remark. Misquoted her.
:17:08. > :17:11.LAUGHTER. Donald Trump has tapped into the
:17:12. > :17:16.zeitgeist. Two thirds of American voters who don't have a degree voted
:17:17. > :17:23.for him. I don't know if it was the zeitgeist. 145 academics and writers
:17:24. > :17:28.issued a statement in support of Trump and one was a philosophy
:17:29. > :17:32.professor at the University of Texas, he said Trump is pro-
:17:33. > :17:35.American, concerned about immigration because of economic
:17:36. > :17:42.effects and about factories closing down. These are not... Trump is
:17:43. > :17:48.concerned about Donald Trump. This is his animating mission in life. It
:17:49. > :17:54.is to enrich himself and build himself up. Anybody who tells
:17:55. > :17:58.themselves otherwise is... You are dismissing a lot of people who voted
:17:59. > :18:02.for him. I am not dismissing all of the people who voted for him. He ran
:18:03. > :18:08.a deeply dishonest campaign at a moment which, as you say, he tapped
:18:09. > :18:11.into the antiestablishment zeitgeist, running against an
:18:12. > :18:17.extremely establishment candidate with a message that was "All is
:18:18. > :18:22.hell" to which Hillary Clinton said "All is well" and it isn't well.
:18:23. > :18:26.People are in pain. They need good jobs. They need security. There is a
:18:27. > :18:31.tremendous amount of fear. Those who didn't vote for Donald Trump, the
:18:32. > :18:36.majority of American people, too many were not excited about Hillary
:18:37. > :18:39.Clinton. She had depressed voter turnout compared with Obama in 2012.
:18:40. > :18:45.They felt the system had failed them. I believe the Democratic Party
:18:46. > :18:48.has abandoned workers, not just white workers, the working class
:18:49. > :18:54.generally and those most vulnerable in the working class in the US are
:18:55. > :18:58.those of colour. So, what they peddled was an entity identity
:18:59. > :19:06.politics mostly about name checking different groups, recognising them,
:19:07. > :19:15."ICU" and not offering improvements in daily life. Hillary Clinton
:19:16. > :19:19.oppose their strong campaign for a 15 dollar minimum wage she couldn't
:19:20. > :19:24.get behind it. She said, maybe 12, you know? This is what it means to
:19:25. > :19:29.fight for women's rights, who are overwhelmingly the women who are in
:19:30. > :19:35.those precarious jobs, working multiple jobs to pay the Bills. She
:19:36. > :19:40.represents a particular kind of identity politics, a leave in
:19:41. > :19:44.feminism that benefits elites. To go back to the white working class, it
:19:45. > :19:48.is the white male working class who feel neglected who voted for Donald
:19:49. > :19:55.Trump. Professor Angus Steed and and and cakes, a noble lorry at, they
:19:56. > :19:59.are at Princeton university, they have done a great deal of study on
:20:00. > :20:02.the white male working class -- Anne Cates. They showed that the
:20:03. > :20:06.mortality rate for the poorly educated for white males has soared
:20:07. > :20:11.since 2000 -- Nobel laureate. They are more likely to die than black or
:20:12. > :20:16.Hispanic males. They are likely to be at the bottom of the run. That is
:20:17. > :20:21.what I said, they have been perhaps neglected by progressive voices. By
:20:22. > :20:28.everyone. That is where Trump spoke to them and they heard him. The
:20:29. > :20:32.solution is not to say, well, for get identity politics, we will just
:20:33. > :20:37.focus on the white working class. It is to connect the dots. They are not
:20:38. > :20:41.the only ones discarded by this system. It is true that they are the
:20:42. > :20:45.ones who had the highest level of expectation. They had the better
:20:46. > :20:49.jobs, they tended to have those manufacturing jobs that paid enough
:20:50. > :20:54.to support a family, it you know, in the auto sector and so on. So it is
:20:55. > :20:57.untrue that they have suffered the most under these economic policies.
:20:58. > :21:02.In fact the wealth gap between white and black in the United States has
:21:03. > :21:11.widened because since 2008, since the financial crisis, it was Omer --
:21:12. > :21:14.overwhelmingly black Americans targeted for sub-prime loans. They
:21:15. > :21:19.have lost an enormous amount of wealth. If you are in the higher
:21:20. > :21:23.part of the economic hierarchy you have further to fall. There is more
:21:24. > :21:30.a sense of betrayal perhaps among those white men that are taking
:21:31. > :21:35.their own lives, whether drugs, suicide and that death by despair
:21:36. > :21:41.study is in the book. So are you not with your arguments now playing into
:21:42. > :21:45.people's fear, uncertainty and doubt, by saying, look what's
:21:46. > :21:50.happening, you know, Donald Trump could spark a war, for instance, to
:21:51. > :21:56.push up oil prices and that kind of thing. Are you not playing into
:21:57. > :22:02.people's fears? People are afraid already. What I am trying to offer
:22:03. > :22:06.is a plan that goes beyond just saying no to Trump, resistance to
:22:07. > :22:10.Trump, this # In response to Trump is the
:22:11. > :22:14.resistance. I think we need to resist the most dangerous of his
:22:15. > :22:18.policies. We have seen some inspiring resistance in response to
:22:19. > :22:24.the Muslim band. We saw the huge women's march on Trump's first day
:22:25. > :22:29.on the job. The problem is even if we resist every one of the attacks
:22:30. > :22:32.we would still end up in the same place we were when Donald Trump was
:22:33. > :22:36.elected, and that was the ground that produced Donald Trump. We have
:22:37. > :22:43.to get to the issues he was able to play on in order to be a elected.
:22:44. > :22:49.Jeremy Corbyn's campaign shows the power of a bold, forward-looking
:22:50. > :22:53.progressive agenda... The leader of the Labour Party in the UK. He
:22:54. > :22:58.didn't win the election, did he? He did a lot better. He was dozens of
:22:59. > :23:03.seats at less than the Conservatives. He did better but he
:23:04. > :23:07.didn't win. He started to do better when they issued their manifesto,
:23:08. > :23:11.which was so bold, which was about healthcare, which was about jobs,
:23:12. > :23:15.which was about free education. That is not about fear. It is the
:23:16. > :23:20.opposite of fear. That is what you want to promote for the United
:23:21. > :23:26.States? Yes. I think it is the only way of resisting and defeating
:23:27. > :23:31.Trumpism. Calling for mass protest finally? I don't think they are
:23:32. > :23:36.enough. I think we need vision and protest. We have had a lot of
:23:37. > :23:39.protest. People get exhausted by only protesting. I think what will
:23:40. > :23:43.keep people in the long haul is a vision for the world they want
:23:44. > :23:47.instead. Who has that vision among the leaders in the United States
:23:48. > :23:51.politicians? I am not sure we have seen exactly who that leader is yet.
:23:52. > :23:56.Bernie Sanders has part of it, Elizabeth Warren has part of it,
:23:57. > :24:01.Nina Turner has part of it - the new head of our revolution, which is the
:24:02. > :24:05.congressional wing of Bernie Sanders's campaign. I also think a
:24:06. > :24:09.social movements have it at the grassroots and that is where I am
:24:10. > :24:12.putting a lot of my hope right now. Naomi Klein, thank you very much
:24:13. > :24:35.indeed for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you.
:24:36. > :24:39.The rain came pretty much non-stop across northern England and southern