:00:00. > :00:23.Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi. Conflict in eastern Ukraine
:00:24. > :00:29.between the two sides has worsened. Both sides have been accused of
:00:30. > :00:34.violating the Minsk agreement. And talk of a warmer relationship
:00:35. > :00:37.between Moscow and Washington says. Trump became president has led to
:00:38. > :00:43.worries in Ukraine that its interests are being sidelined. My
:00:44. > :00:50.guest is Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, Ukraine's buys prominence of the
:00:51. > :01:17.European integration. Is her country now out in the cold? Vice premier
:01:18. > :01:22.Stirk Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, welcome to HARDtalk Thank you for
:01:23. > :01:32.having me here. Donald Trump has said of Vladimir Putin that they
:01:33. > :01:36.would probably get along. He said -- is a election is properly bad news
:01:37. > :01:40.to Ukraine. Since his election, we have only had supportive messages
:01:41. > :01:48.from the US administration and we have had a very clear signal from
:01:49. > :01:54.Donald Trump himself during his recent meeting with the president of
:01:55. > :01:56.Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko, when he confirmed the willingness to
:01:57. > :01:59.continue sanctions with regard to Russian aggression against the
:02:00. > :02:07.Ukraine and to support further Ukrainian reforms, and to make sure
:02:08. > :02:12.that America is staying engaged in trying to sort out the conflict that
:02:13. > :02:20.we are finding ourselves as a victim. So nothing but words of
:02:21. > :02:25.support? It flies in the face of what the former Ambassador to Russia
:02:26. > :02:32.said on Twitter about the election night was that the biggest loser in
:02:33. > :02:36.the world that night was Ukraine. Ukraine's Foreign Minister said for
:02:37. > :02:39.the future of our world and our children, a better relationship with
:02:40. > :02:42.the United States and Russia is something we should all wish for.
:02:43. > :02:46.But that relationship must not come at the expense of Ukraine. There are
:02:47. > :02:50.worries. I totally subscribe to that. They have been worries,
:02:51. > :02:54.especially to any campaign, and that is why I have deliberately said
:02:55. > :03:00.since the inauguration of the new president, that is exactly the more
:03:01. > :03:03.solid understanding of the future relationship between the UK in and
:03:04. > :03:10.the US, and the political stance of the US has been just getting around.
:03:11. > :03:14.-- between Ukraine and the US. That is what we have heard from the state
:03:15. > :03:20.secretary, the secretary from a defence -- the secretary of defence,
:03:21. > :03:25.and we suppose that free, independent, and sovereign Ukraine
:03:26. > :03:29.is in the national interests of the US, and in the national interests of
:03:30. > :03:34.all the European and Nato countries, as well. So you say that there is
:03:35. > :03:39.the support, but we hear things, for instance, you mention sanctions,
:03:40. > :03:43.which are in place on Russia. Because of its annexation of Crimea
:03:44. > :03:49.in 2014, and the continuing conflict in eastern Ukraine. They are said to
:03:50. > :03:57.be supporting separatist breakaway rebels. Mike Pence has said if we
:03:58. > :04:01.have opportunities to work together with Russia, I think Donald Trump is
:04:02. > :04:05.looking for an opportunity to begin the relationship a new. There have
:04:06. > :04:10.been hints from Washington that deals can be made on sanctions in
:04:11. > :04:14.exchange for security cooperation with Russia. We do hope that
:04:15. > :04:25.bipartisan support that we receive in the American congress is not
:04:26. > :04:29.going to lead to any possible compromises with the Russian
:04:30. > :04:33.Federation a distance of Ukraine, as well as what we hear from the
:04:34. > :04:37.representatives of the administration in the latest months.
:04:38. > :04:40.That is exactly also providing us with belief that this will not
:04:41. > :04:46.happen at the expense of the Ukraine. It sounds like you are
:04:47. > :04:53.worried. I do not think so. We have received all the confirmations of
:04:54. > :04:58.continued policy from the previous administration, right now, carried
:04:59. > :05:02.onto the new administration. The Obama administration was seen as
:05:03. > :05:06.less freely to Russia than the current one. So when President Petro
:05:07. > :05:12.Poroshenko of Ukraine met with Donald Trump a few weeks ago, it was
:05:13. > :05:18.totally reassured on all accounts, was he, your President? That is
:05:19. > :05:22.exactly no -- that is exacted what I know from my colleagues who were at
:05:23. > :05:26.the meeting. What did he say about Premier, for instance? My
:05:27. > :05:34.understanding is that America is going to continue for a
:05:35. > :05:40.nonrecognition policy of the nonlegal annexation of Crimea. --
:05:41. > :05:47.say about Crimea. We also heard from the US ambassador at the United
:05:48. > :05:52.Nations, Nikki Haley, as well. So I think all the signals a point in the
:05:53. > :05:55.same direction. I think that we getting more and more information on
:05:56. > :06:00.what is really going on on the ground in the Ukraine, that helps to
:06:01. > :06:10.formulate the position that would be for the benefit of the Ukraine, and
:06:11. > :06:15.for the benefit of free and democratic world, where the US is
:06:16. > :06:19.the main actor. You say the US is the main actor. Beretts additional
:06:20. > :06:24.concerns about the that the United States is retreating. Your own
:06:25. > :06:30.former acting president said earlier this year, talking that US
:06:31. > :06:35.withdrawal from global leadership. He said he expected further
:06:36. > :06:42.destabilisation in Eastern Europe. He is not the only one who is saying
:06:43. > :06:46.that. We have Russia and China, which President Xi Jinping said will
:06:47. > :06:51.be the defining factor in the next ten years in the world. I think it
:06:52. > :06:56.is time right now to get back to solidarity between the European
:06:57. > :07:03.nations and the US, and other transatlantic partners, like Japan
:07:04. > :07:06.or Canada, for that matter, that they would consolidate their efforts
:07:07. > :07:11.in actually making sure that whatever values that have been built
:07:12. > :07:17.on, they continued through in the world. The point I have said to you,
:07:18. > :07:20.is are you worried that a withdrawal of America, whereby you seem Russia
:07:21. > :07:27.and China filling the back room, that again is bad news to you. These
:07:28. > :07:33.make the United States is not going to withdraw with all the thinking
:07:34. > :07:37.that it has to do with regards to its foreign policy and the other
:07:38. > :07:41.policies in the world. I hope that these policies that have been at the
:07:42. > :07:47.core of the US for decades, they will be continued on further. One
:07:48. > :07:50.key plank of international policy, including the United States, when it
:07:51. > :07:55.comes in Ukraine, is the Minsk agreement. We have seen the second
:07:56. > :08:00.one signed in 2015. But it is interesting now that Rex Tillerson
:08:01. > :08:05.says of it that he actually thinks that, and he only said this last
:08:06. > :08:08.month, that the Trump administration does not want to be handcuffed to
:08:09. > :08:13.the Minsk agreement, and that Ukraine and Russia might find Abe
:08:14. > :08:17.bilateral solution on the conflict in Eastern Europe. That is not
:08:18. > :08:21.something you would welcome, is it? Two I don't see how it the Ukraine
:08:22. > :08:30.and Russia would find the solution by themselves. -- I don't see. An
:08:31. > :08:33.extinct part of the Ukrainian territory in Crimea, and sending
:08:34. > :08:39.regular troops and armament to the eastern part of the country is
:08:40. > :08:42.exactly violating the international law that has the consequences not
:08:43. > :08:46.only for the Ukraine, which is defending its country, but has
:08:47. > :08:53.consequences for global order. And that is why it for regional
:08:54. > :08:57.security, as well, it is important for Europe. And that is why it is
:08:58. > :09:02.important to the US. Because if we will give in to Russia in the
:09:03. > :09:08.Ukraine altogether, if we sacrifice for any matter Ukraine to the
:09:09. > :09:14.federation, then the Russian President, in his appetite will
:09:15. > :09:19.grow, and he will attack again. The point I am making is that the United
:09:20. > :09:22.States say they don't want to be handcuffed to the Minsk agreement.
:09:23. > :09:26.That is the question I asked you. Nobody properly wants to be
:09:27. > :09:31.handcuffed to any agreement. -- probably. But if this is our only
:09:32. > :09:42.chance to sort out peace or see the roadmap, how do we get to finally a
:09:43. > :09:46.real prospect of peace, we should try all the possibilities. And that
:09:47. > :09:50.is what Ukraine is doing. That is not what is happening on the ground,
:09:51. > :09:58.though. The United Nations say that fatalities are up 52% compared to
:09:59. > :10:04.last year. Both sides are said to be violating this agreement, including
:10:05. > :10:12.industry that shelling. We are happy there is a special monitoring
:10:13. > :10:17.mission of the OEC, to provide the world with objective information.
:10:18. > :10:29.According to those reports of the OEC, they are everyday shelling,
:10:30. > :10:33.that is the Russia backed militants. Ukrainian forces are first and
:10:34. > :10:38.foremost protecting our own land on our own territory. They are firing
:10:39. > :10:44.back and whenever there is... Indiscriminately? No, they are
:10:45. > :10:49.firing back, and had never fired back on any of the civilian
:10:50. > :10:52.buildings or two dissident in residential areas, as opposed to
:10:53. > :11:01.Russia backed militants who are actually firing at civilians and
:11:02. > :11:04.residential areas. We will ask the Russians when they come on HARDtalk
:11:05. > :11:12.about the convict in Eastern Europe, is in Ukraine, we will do that. But
:11:13. > :11:17.I must ask you to respond to the accusations against Ukrainian
:11:18. > :11:22.forces, either regulate Ukrainian armed forces, or those activists who
:11:23. > :11:25.are supporting them who are armed. The United Nations High Commissioner
:11:26. > :11:30.and human rights and interbreed this year Ukrainian government forces and
:11:31. > :11:42.armed groups supporting you continued to violate rights in it in
:11:43. > :11:51.Ukraine. Whenever our forces are fighting back, when time allows,
:11:52. > :11:57.they are notifying people from the OEC that they go to buy. That is
:11:58. > :12:03.what makes us different from the Russian militants. -- that they are
:12:04. > :12:10.going to fire. But what you are alluding to right now is these
:12:11. > :12:16.problems that we have unfortunately, first and foremost, 82% of the
:12:17. > :12:21.incidents that are happening of attacks on, for instance, OEC
:12:22. > :12:24.monitors, on the ground, they are happening on the grounds that are
:12:25. > :12:31.not controlled by the Ukrainian forces. I ascended the criticisms
:12:32. > :12:37.are about both sides. I am asking you about the criticisms against
:12:38. > :12:42.Ukrainian forces. -- I am saying the criticisms are about. A report said
:12:43. > :12:47.the Ukrainian government forces and pro-government militias in eastern
:12:48. > :12:57.Ukraine used ungraded rockets that have killed civilians and said they
:12:58. > :13:02.use good amounts -- gauges could amount to war crimes. -- there use.
:13:03. > :13:07.Due to make the investigations on the Ukrainian side are all the time
:13:08. > :13:11.being carried out. There is no proof that Ukrainian forces have been
:13:12. > :13:17.using them against residential areas. Moreover, I want to recall
:13:18. > :13:24.specifically in the end of January, the beginning of Feber, there was a
:13:25. > :13:31.huge attack of a Russia led -- in the beginning of the rear, there was
:13:32. > :13:41.a huge attack I Russian led militants. -- February. We were
:13:42. > :13:47.almost having survival, with 20,000 people in that city, the grinning
:13:48. > :13:50.government, that took care of the repairing of those errors, making
:13:51. > :13:55.sure people are provided with the possibility to live normal lives in
:13:56. > :13:59.these circumstances. And unfortunately, that was confirmed
:14:00. > :14:03.also by the OEC monitors that unfortunately those were the
:14:04. > :14:05.militants who were not allowed for even short time ceasefires to repair
:14:06. > :14:12.the grids. You're talking about the
:14:13. > :14:18.humanitarian situation in eastern Europe, Ukraine and you're saying
:14:19. > :14:22.the pro- Moscow separatists are responsible but I have to put it to
:14:23. > :14:25.you that there are also complaints about Ukrainian activity which has
:14:26. > :14:30.led to what the Russian Foreign Ministry warns could turn into a
:14:31. > :14:35.humanitarian catastrophe. There have been criticisms of the illegal
:14:36. > :14:39.blockades by Ukrainian activists that prevent supplies going into
:14:40. > :14:43.civilians in rebel held territory, that's one of the accusations, and
:14:44. > :14:48.Ukraine in March imposed a temporary freeze on rail and road car though
:14:49. > :14:52.links to breakaway enclaves, which has meant that civilians are
:14:53. > :14:57.suffering in the rebel held areas, they're not getting the supplies
:14:58. > :15:00.they need. I hope people in the West already understood that whatever
:15:01. > :15:05.Russian Ministry of foreign affairs is not saying it is not necessarily
:15:06. > :15:12.always the truth unfortunately. Moreover what Russian information
:15:13. > :15:17.sources are bringing on the public. That's also quite frequently
:15:18. > :15:22.something that is made up. That is something that we have to deal with
:15:23. > :15:31.in our everyday life. What you are asking about... The Ukrainian
:15:32. > :15:37.government had to make a response to the actions of the Russian
:15:38. > :15:42.Federation when the so-called puppet basically authorities that are
:15:43. > :15:45.installed on the occupied territories by the Russian
:15:46. > :15:53.Federation on us, they expropriated 26 Ukrainian enterprises that are on
:15:54. > :15:57.the territory. Coalmines and steel? Yes, operating within Ukrainian law
:15:58. > :16:02.but they expropriated that so after that we couldn't continue working
:16:03. > :16:06.with them. Moreover the Russian Federation decided to recognise the
:16:07. > :16:12.so-called IDs produced on the local ground in the territory not
:16:13. > :16:16.controlled by the Ukraine. And they introduced the ruble as the only
:16:17. > :16:20.currency. So the Ukrainian government unfortunately had to
:16:21. > :16:25.react with the measure that we had to take. The blockade. But civilians
:16:26. > :16:30.might be suffering as a result. Again the UN commissioner for human
:16:31. > :16:34.rights in a report looking at the situation in the Ukraine to May this
:16:35. > :16:38.year has said he's worried about restrictions on the freedom of
:16:39. > :16:44.movement is because it means internally displaced people, the
:16:45. > :16:50.IDPs, entitled to pavements and social payments, living in rebel
:16:51. > :16:52.held areas in eastern Ukraine, to renew their registration in
:16:53. > :16:56.government-held territory but it's so difficult for them because they
:16:57. > :17:01.are subjected to long queues at Exeter and entry checkpoints, it
:17:02. > :17:08.exposes civilians to degrading conditions for protracted periods
:17:09. > :17:12.until the risk of death from shelling. You're also responsible
:17:13. > :17:17.for civilians suffering? Over the last half of year we have extremely
:17:18. > :17:23.improved the whole registration process of the internally displaced
:17:24. > :17:31.people. But not until May this year. And the Ukraine right now has more
:17:32. > :17:36.than 1.6 million of internally displaced people, think about that,
:17:37. > :17:46.that number. We are taking care of all the payments. If they are
:17:47. > :17:50.internally placed... People in occupied territory who have fled
:17:51. > :17:54.their homes, they are fully paid all the pensions and social care. There
:17:55. > :18:00.are thousands on thousands of them not receiving their pensions and
:18:01. > :18:03.social payments? These are IDPs who would not receive the payments and
:18:04. > :18:08.that's been confirmed by the recent EU report and I'm sure... There
:18:09. > :18:13.aren't long queues for people trying to get their pensions all social
:18:14. > :18:19.payments any more, is that what you're saying? There are no queues,
:18:20. > :18:22.there are queues on the grounds where people are crossing the
:18:23. > :18:27.touchline from the opt to buy territory to the Ukrainian territory
:18:28. > :18:31.and backwards -- occupied. That's normal with regard to security
:18:32. > :18:35.checks they are going through and unfortunately the militants are not
:18:36. > :18:38.allowing us to open up additional crossing points. All the
:18:39. > :18:44.humanitarian suffering for the civilians is all the fault of the
:18:45. > :18:48.separatists and the Russians, nothing to do with Ukrainian
:18:49. > :18:51.activity? We wouldn't have had the people suffering if it were not for
:18:52. > :18:56.the Russian aggression to the territory of the Ukraine and if it
:18:57. > :19:01.was not for Russia pouring in all the weapons and soldiers and
:19:02. > :19:05.training those militants on the territory of our country. Moscow
:19:06. > :19:10.says it doesn't have troops inside eastern Ukraine. That unfortunately
:19:11. > :19:13.is the lie they are trying to build their case on. The fact is you have
:19:14. > :19:17.this long border with Russia, you're near neighbour, and when it comes to
:19:18. > :19:21.looking at the medium and the long-term, you're going to have to
:19:22. > :19:26.get on, you've got people who have got ties, large number of people in
:19:27. > :19:30.the Ukraine speak Russian as their native language, and yet here you
:19:31. > :19:35.are saying you would like to pursue Nato membership at some stage, which
:19:36. > :19:40.would be like a red rag to a bull to Russia. Is it wise for you to be
:19:41. > :19:44.throwing fuel on the relationship like this and adding fuel to the
:19:45. > :19:49.fire of the conflict in eastern Ukraine in this way? Russia has
:19:50. > :19:53.attacked Ukraine specifically at the time when Ukraine had a non-aligned
:19:54. > :19:59.status. When Ukrainian legislation said we're not going to join any
:20:00. > :20:05.political or defence or security alliance with anybody else and we
:20:06. > :20:09.will stay neutral. It did not protrude the Russian Federation from
:20:10. > :20:15.actually not attacking Ukraine even though we had all the basis for our
:20:16. > :20:18.positive relationship, we have the strategic agreement of partnership
:20:19. > :20:22.with Russian Federation, moreover the Russian Federation was one of
:20:23. > :20:26.the guarantors of the Ukrainian subtree and territorial integrity on
:20:27. > :20:31.the basis of the Budapest memorandum when Ukraine was the third major
:20:32. > :20:35.nuclear power in the world that gave up its nuclear weapons. Who's
:20:36. > :20:41.pushing you to drop your non-aligned status and say come and join us in
:20:42. > :20:44.Nato? Nato is not asking you to join, you know that's something
:20:45. > :20:48.that's not going to happen for a very long time, if ever. It's the
:20:49. > :20:53.response of our politicians to the Ukrainian society, the understanding
:20:54. > :20:58.of the Ukrainian society that first and foremost right now we have to
:20:59. > :21:03.concentrate on being capable to defend ourselves. So you want to
:21:04. > :21:11.join Nato? And once we are ready, once we are integrated functionally
:21:12. > :21:14.into Nato and into operable, we will be able to submit our membership
:21:15. > :21:19.application. President Poroshenko said there will be a referendum on
:21:20. > :21:24.joining Nato, is that so? At some point but first and foremost we have
:21:25. > :21:29.to understand we need to do a lot of homework before we're ready to
:21:30. > :21:31.submit the application. Your portfolio, European integration,
:21:32. > :21:36.Ukraine, would like to add some stage join the European Union again,
:21:37. > :21:41.EU commissioner Jean-Claude Juncker said that wouldn't happen at least
:21:42. > :21:45.for 20 or 30 years because they've tried to expand to quickly. Who's
:21:46. > :21:51.going to absorb a country of 45 million such as Ukraine, it's not
:21:52. > :21:56.going to happen, it's a fairytale? It was a choice of the Ukrainian
:21:57. > :21:59.people during the revolution of dignity, which started just because
:22:00. > :22:05.the previous president of Ukraine did not sign the association
:22:06. > :22:10.agreement with the EU and the desire of people is translating right now
:22:11. > :22:13.in the very specific reform and transformation agenda for the
:22:14. > :22:20.country that we are carrying on right now. And it will become a
:22:21. > :22:26.truth one day and I'm sure everybody will only be benefiting from Ukraine
:22:27. > :22:29.joining the EU. As I said, there is a great deal of scepticism both
:22:30. > :22:33.within your country and within the EU about that ever happening.
:22:34. > :22:38.Finally and briefly, corruption is a huge issue in Ukraine, and I know
:22:39. > :22:41.there isn't a lot of time to talk about it, but it is something which
:22:42. > :22:45.your government came into power saying it was going to tackle, it's
:22:46. > :22:50.endemic in the Ukraine, from allegations top to bottom. What are
:22:51. > :22:53.you going to be doing about it? You've got to seize... I fully
:22:54. > :22:58.understand why you're saying this and I understand that this is
:22:59. > :23:04.getting much better coverage in the West, but I would like to underline
:23:05. > :23:09.that we have created legislature to fight corruption. We have created
:23:10. > :23:12.institutions like the national anticorruption bureau and the
:23:13. > :23:16.national anticorruption prosecution agency for preventing corruption
:23:17. > :23:21.that are already fully functional and carrying out the actions against
:23:22. > :23:28.high officials. We have opened up... We have opened up of all the
:23:29. > :23:34.politicians, their declarations of their assets, totally open to
:23:35. > :23:42.public. This is ensuring a lot of accountability. We have introduced
:23:43. > :23:45.the best ever system that is recognised in the West for the
:23:46. > :23:50.electronic public procurement, which is already saving us 10% of our
:23:51. > :23:58.public procurement budget. So we're closing the loopholes in our
:23:59. > :24:02.procedures that would invite any corruption prone activities, and I'm
:24:03. > :24:09.sure that with time we will tackle this endemic issue that we have to
:24:10. > :24:11.deal with. Vice Prime Minister Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, thank
:24:12. > :24:33.you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you.
:24:34. > :24:41.We've got more of that hot and humid weather coming up
:24:42. > :24:45.Yesterday we had temperatures of 30 degrees in both Heathrow and Wisley
:24:46. > :24:49.in Surrey, and we're going to see temperatures again getting to those