:00:00. > :00:00.third round contest against Italy's Fabio Fanini at Wimbledon. And that
:00:00. > :00:08.is BBC World News and its headlines. And now, it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:09. > :00:11.Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi.
:00:12. > :00:14.President Trump is meeting his fellow leaders of the G20 summit
:00:15. > :00:17.in Hamburg this week when big issues like international trade and climate
:00:18. > :00:21.My guest is the progressive Canadian-American writer
:00:22. > :00:28.She says Donald Trump's rise to power is a product of our time
:00:29. > :00:30.and that his becoming president amounts to a corporate takeover
:00:31. > :00:34.She's calling for mass protests against him.
:00:35. > :00:37.But are her radical policies a panacea for the current ills
:00:38. > :01:18.You have just written a new book, No Is Not Enough.
:01:19. > :01:21.Is it anything more than just another liberal critique of Donald
:01:22. > :01:25.What I am trying to do with the book is really focus less on Donald Trump
:01:26. > :01:28.the personality, the extremist, the shock machine who has everybody
:01:29. > :01:34.into the context really off the past 40 years of economic history and how
:01:35. > :01:38.And he makes sense in this culture where we have had the triumph
:01:39. > :01:41.of lifestyle brands where we have humans merging with corporations,
:01:42. > :01:43.we worship wealth, consumption is a way of life.
:01:44. > :01:46.We have a dominance-based logic in our economy at every level
:01:47. > :01:56.so I think Trump makes sense and I want to put him in context.
:01:57. > :01:59.And in what way does he epitomise or that the personification
:02:00. > :02:02.of the merger of humans and corporations because you say,
:02:03. > :02:05.he has become a one-man mega brand with his children and wife
:02:06. > :02:12.He does kind of breed brands within his family.
:02:13. > :02:16.This is the first time we have had a political figure of this stature
:02:17. > :02:18.who is a fully commercialised superbrand.
:02:19. > :02:21.The Trump Corporation is built around his personality so it isn't
:02:22. > :02:24.just that he has refused to divest from his business,
:02:25. > :02:27.which would be problematic enough, it's that the business is Trump.
:02:28. > :02:30.So this relates to the first book I ever wrote called No Logo
:02:31. > :02:32.which is about how many corporations restructured themselves
:02:33. > :02:36.in the 1990s so they were less about selling and making products
:02:37. > :02:38.and more about building ideas and then creating these branded
:02:39. > :02:41.cocooned lifestyles that they extended into all of these
:02:42. > :02:45.He started off building buildings but then he just started
:02:46. > :03:02.building Brand Trump especially once he had The Apprentice.
:03:03. > :03:04.But his Trump organisation employs 34,000 people and if you take
:03:05. > :03:08.in all of their families and so on, that's a lot of people
:03:09. > :03:14.I don't see what that really has to do with the fact
:03:15. > :03:18.Well, he's more than a brand, he's more than a brand
:03:19. > :03:21.and if his employees at Trump Organisation amount
:03:22. > :03:32.Look, the people who make most of the buildings that bear the
:03:33. > :03:34.Trump logo are not employed directly by Trump.
:03:35. > :03:37.His main business model is to build his name and certainly
:03:38. > :03:40.there are people employed in marketing brand Trump,
:03:41. > :03:43.That's the figure from last year's CNN Money and they looked
:03:44. > :03:46.into the whole Trump organisation and that's the figure
:03:47. > :03:49.they came up with, so, one way or another...
:03:50. > :03:52.That he doesn't build...he leases brand Trump...
:03:53. > :03:55.I'm just saying that there is 34,000 employees under the Trump
:03:56. > :03:57.organisation so he's more than a brand.
:03:58. > :04:00.A lot of people rely on him for his livelihoods.
:04:01. > :04:06.Isn't he also more than a brand in that he stands for policies,
:04:07. > :04:08.very clear policies and he taps into the zeitgeist
:04:09. > :04:11.when he says, look, I'm not happy about globalisation.
:04:12. > :04:13.He said, in particular about globalisation in June
:04:14. > :04:16.last year, "it has made the financial elite who donate
:04:17. > :04:19.to politicians very wealthy but it's left millions of our workers
:04:20. > :04:25.with nothing but poverty and heartache".
:04:26. > :04:28.And you know, he's not the only political figure on the right
:04:29. > :04:31.that is tapping into huge levels of dissatisfaction around corporate
:04:32. > :04:35.Marine Le Pen is doing the same in France and the Brexit campaign
:04:36. > :04:38.in the UK tapped into that same energy and he ran on this campaign
:04:39. > :04:45.to bring back jobs, to stand up for the working class.
:04:46. > :04:49.What he is doing in power is very, very different and that's why
:04:50. > :04:52.as you said in your introduction, I said this is a takeover.
:04:53. > :04:54.But not just of brand Trump, it's really ExxonMobil,
:04:55. > :04:56.who has taken over the State Department.
:04:57. > :05:00.Rex Tillerson worked at Exxon for his entire adult
:05:01. > :05:03.After campaigning against Goldman Sachs and Wall Street,
:05:04. > :05:05.accusing Hillary Clinton of being in the pocket
:05:06. > :05:08.of Goldman Sachs, accusing his Republican rivals like Ted Cruz
:05:09. > :05:11.of the same, Trump has turned around and appointed five former
:05:12. > :05:22.Goldman Sachs executives to his Cabinet which is absolutely
:05:23. > :05:25.So you are saying big money is associated with Donald Trump.
:05:26. > :05:28.What I'm saying is that the way he is governing is quite
:05:29. > :05:30.different from the way he campaigned.
:05:31. > :05:33.There was this political brand called Make America Great Again.
:05:34. > :05:36.But what he has ended up doing is pushing policies that
:05:37. > :05:38.systematically redistribute wealth to the 1% of the 1%.
:05:39. > :05:41.He is doing it with tax policy infrastructure plans,
:05:42. > :05:55.Interesting you bring up the campaign when you say it's not
:05:56. > :05:57.what he campaigned on because the Democratic candidate,
:05:58. > :05:59.Hillary Clinton, spent $1.2 billion on her campaign.
:06:00. > :06:03.If you look at your argument, actually, just looking
:06:04. > :06:06.at the campaign, it would seem that big money flowed more
:06:07. > :06:09.to the Democratic candidate than it did to Donald Trump.
:06:10. > :06:17.No, just, it's a point to make though, isn't it?
:06:18. > :06:22.But the argument I make in the book is that Hillary Clinton paved
:06:23. > :06:25.the way for Donald Trump, in that he did not win the election
:06:26. > :06:29.but she lost at the election, because she was uniquely unsuited
:06:30. > :06:31.to be an opposition to this hollow promise that he represented.
:06:32. > :06:34.Of course this billionaire in his golden throne was not
:06:35. > :06:37.going to be a saviour to the working class.
:06:38. > :06:40.The reason he won is not because he had a landslide,
:06:41. > :06:43.he won because the Democrats were not able to energise their base
:06:44. > :06:46.and that is why I say that no is not enough.
:06:47. > :06:54.It is not enough just to critique trump.
:06:55. > :06:57.There has to be an economic project on the progressive side
:06:58. > :07:01.of the political spectrum that speak to that need for jobs and security
:07:02. > :07:15.Well, I'm sure he wouldn't say he was selling lies because one
:07:16. > :07:18.thing he has done is teared up the Trans-Pacific Partnership
:07:19. > :07:21.agreement because he thinks that trade has not served
:07:22. > :07:28.the United States well and says he wants to renegotiate Nafta...
:07:29. > :07:30.To make it more like the Trans-Pacific Partnership.
:07:31. > :07:34.He says he wants to hire American, buy American and that's what I mean
:07:35. > :07:36.about the fact that he taps into the zeitgeist.
:07:37. > :07:39.He's criticised countries like Japan and Germany because they have
:07:40. > :07:47.He wants to bring jobs to the United States.
:07:48. > :07:52.I think if we look at what he is doing,
:07:53. > :07:54.he will actually end up driving down wages.
:07:55. > :07:57.His Commerce Secretary, Wilbur Ross, has been out there reassuring
:07:58. > :07:59.business audiences that when they renegotiate Nafta,
:08:00. > :08:02.they're going to do to make it more like the Trans-Pacific Partnership
:08:03. > :08:04.which is exactly what Trump campaigned against.
:08:05. > :08:07.So of course he raised these hopes but I don't believe
:08:08. > :08:10.he is going to bring the jobs back and support middle-class lifestyles.
:08:11. > :08:14.He did it to get elected and it was a resonant promise
:08:15. > :08:16.but that is why my argument is that progressives need
:08:17. > :08:19.to step up into this moment with a real 21st-century
:08:20. > :08:25.jobs programme and I'm passionate about climate change
:08:26. > :08:28.and the fact that we need jobs that are going to support middle-class
:08:29. > :08:31.families and working-class families but also bring emissions down
:08:32. > :08:35.Luckily we can do this, we can create huge numbers of jobs
:08:36. > :08:36.in efficiency, public transit, renewable energy.
:08:37. > :08:39.This is the future, not bringing back coal jobs
:08:40. > :08:57.But I mean, he wants to bring back jobs, even if they might not be
:08:58. > :09:00.as well paid as you might like, at least he wants
:09:01. > :09:04.He's criticised outsourcing, I know you say in your book
:09:05. > :09:07.that there is outsourcing in Trump's organisations but he says he wants
:09:08. > :09:13.He wants to bring back some labour to the United States and I think
:09:14. > :09:17.you would have to accept that time might tell if he does do that.
:09:18. > :09:20.He is saying that free trade isn't all it is cracked up to be.
:09:21. > :09:23.I mean, there are people who are worried about protectionism
:09:24. > :09:29.So I'm saying there must be some things that you agree with him on.
:09:30. > :09:33.What I believe is that the reason why Trump and the Brexit campaign
:09:34. > :09:37.and Le Pen have been able to be as successful as they have been
:09:38. > :09:40.is because this terrain which is rightfully progressive has been
:09:41. > :09:42.seeded because centrist political parties that originally opposed
:09:43. > :09:44.these trade deals ended up negotiating them
:09:45. > :09:49.Bill Clinton and this is a huge reason why Hillary Clinton was not
:09:50. > :09:52.trusted among working-class voters in the US is that Bill Clinton
:09:53. > :09:54.originally campaigned against Nafta, promised to renegotiate the whole
:09:55. > :09:57.agreement, and ended up pushing the free trade agenda much further.
:09:58. > :09:59.So when she campaigned against the Trans-Pacific Partnership,
:10:00. > :10:04.as she did, it just wasn't credible and this is why we are seeing a wave
:10:05. > :10:05.of support for figures like Jeremy Cameron
:10:06. > :10:08.and Bernie Sanders who are just seen as more credible messengers
:10:09. > :10:10.for a message of progressive economic populism.
:10:11. > :10:13.But there is some overlap, you must accept, between progressive
:10:14. > :10:16.voices such as yours and what Donald Trump is advocating.
:10:17. > :10:24.There is overlap, there is overlap...
:10:25. > :10:29.What I don't accept is that he's actually going to do it.
:10:30. > :10:32.What I believe is that he saw that there was fertile political
:10:33. > :10:34.He's changing the corporate culture a bit.
:10:35. > :10:37.I'll tell you what Jeff Immelt, the outgoing CEO of General
:10:38. > :10:41.He said, "Global thinkers have grown increasingly distant from the needs
:10:42. > :10:45.We ignored the impact on communities and hid behind trade deals that
:10:46. > :10:46.were better for companies than workers."
:10:47. > :10:50.Donald Trump arguably has opened up the space where you have corporate
:10:51. > :10:52.leaders such as Jeff Immelt saying these things.
:10:53. > :10:55.You know, shifting the debate, it doesn't matter.
:10:56. > :10:58.He's opened a debate amongst senior corporate figures.
:10:59. > :11:01.Absolutely, there is a shifting political ground and that is
:11:02. > :11:06.The economic project that began under Reagan and Thatcher has been
:11:07. > :11:08.in crisis since the 2008 financial crash.
:11:09. > :11:10.Where this ideological project of privatisation,
:11:11. > :11:12.deregulation, corporate free-trade deals used to be.
:11:13. > :11:16.On the right you have these populist figures who are coming in and mixing
:11:17. > :11:19.a feeling that economic decisions are all being made by these remote
:11:20. > :11:21.bureaucracies which is true, that economic conditions
:11:22. > :11:23.are becoming more and more precarious
:11:24. > :11:34.and mixing it up with xenophobia, with racism, with misogyny.
:11:35. > :11:36.You have populist sentiment from the left wing and populist
:11:37. > :11:39.sentiment on the right wing and arguably, Donald Trump
:11:40. > :11:45.There are populists from the centre-left such as,
:11:46. > :11:47.you mentioned Jeremy Corbyn, Syriza in Greece, and arguably
:11:48. > :11:50.And the Sanders campaign which got 13 million votes.
:11:51. > :11:53.Sure, and there's common ground is what I'm saying.
:11:54. > :11:56.There's common ground, certainly, in this tapping in of the
:11:57. > :11:57.anti-establishment feeling out there.
:11:58. > :12:00.But surely you would acknowledge that there's a contradiction to run
:12:01. > :12:02.an anti-establishment campaign, saying, "I'm going to stand
:12:03. > :12:05.up their money" and then bringing in five Goldman Sachs executives
:12:06. > :12:07.into your cabinet, and then appointing the CEO of Exxon
:12:08. > :12:12.And what I'm saying is we can't just expose...
:12:13. > :12:15.I mean, it's so obvious to expose that Donald Trump is a fraud
:12:16. > :12:18.but the real issue is what are progressives going to do
:12:19. > :12:24.And this is a real concern because this is a malleable moment.
:12:25. > :12:26.There is a moment now, especially what we are seeing
:12:27. > :12:29.with healthcare where their plan to replace ObamaCare is to kick
:12:30. > :12:34.millions of people off their health insurance coverage.
:12:35. > :12:37.And in this moment, we are seeing a rise of interest in universal
:12:38. > :12:40.public healthcare, single-payer healthcare, but who is blocking that
:12:41. > :12:45.This is why the road to Donald Trump is not one we can
:12:46. > :13:08.just pin on the Republican side of the political spectrum.
:13:09. > :13:10.You've mentioned twice now that he is associated with big
:13:11. > :13:14.money and so on, but some of the most greatly admired figures
:13:15. > :13:16.in the United States and in Europe are extremely
:13:17. > :13:20.You have Bill Gates who was applauded for his efforts
:13:21. > :13:23.You have Richard Branson with whom Barack Obama holidayed
:13:24. > :13:40.You've got Mike Bloomberg who is doing a great deal on climate
:13:41. > :13:43.change, an agenda you are very, very attached to, so,
:13:44. > :13:46.what is the matter if these people have a great deal of money
:13:47. > :13:52.So the argument I make is that that whole idea that we can outsource
:13:53. > :13:55.the most pressing problems that we face as global citizens,
:13:56. > :13:57.whether it is climate change or infectious diseases,
:13:58. > :14:00.whether it is poverty itself, to the Davos class.
:14:01. > :14:02.You know, rather than doing this with democracies,
:14:03. > :14:03.with accountability, with transparency, we are going
:14:04. > :14:07.to hand it over to, as you say, Bill Gates, Richard Branson,
:14:08. > :14:12.No, I wasn't saying that, but I mean, I know you've said that
:14:13. > :14:14.Bill Gates, you know, we've got to this assertion that...
:14:15. > :14:20.Nobody's saying that Bill Gates can fix Africa but his efforts
:14:21. > :14:22.in helping fix Africa have to be a applauded.
:14:23. > :14:26.What I say in the book is that, I don't have a problem with charity
:14:27. > :14:29.but we're at a moment where the Gates Foundation has
:14:30. > :14:31.arguably more power than the World Health Organisation
:14:32. > :14:38...talk about being absolutely stunned by the amount of power
:14:39. > :14:39.wielded by private, unaccountable wealth.
:14:40. > :14:42.And this is something I have written about in the past
:14:43. > :14:46.with Richard Branson and the wild claims he has made about how
:14:47. > :14:49.he is going to use his billions from fossil fuel burning to fix
:14:50. > :14:52.climate change and there is no accountability for that money.
:14:53. > :14:54.Are you saying we should do away with philanthropy?
:14:55. > :14:57.Tax them at a fair level and use that money democratically
:14:58. > :15:01.That logic created a situation where we acquainted great wealth
:15:02. > :15:05.If you make money in software, it must mean you know everything
:15:06. > :15:07.about everything - health, agriculture, education.
:15:08. > :15:09.That created a context for Donald Trump to say,
:15:10. > :15:13."Vote for me, I don't know anything about governing and I have never
:15:14. > :15:27.held public office but I am so rich" - this was his pitch.
:15:28. > :15:29.He has surrounded himself with other rich people,
:15:30. > :15:34.he has HR McMaster, National Security Advisor.
:15:35. > :15:36.He has outsourced half the government to his son-in-law.
:15:37. > :15:39.You say he has outsourced half of the government.
:15:40. > :15:42.I have to say he was criticised for not appointing enough people.
:15:43. > :15:47.5% of 556 Federal positions have been filled, which means...
:15:48. > :15:52.He argues against the fact that you say there is
:15:53. > :16:03.Steve Bannon has been open about the master plan.
:16:04. > :16:06.He said the goal is to deconstruct the administrative state,
:16:07. > :16:09.and that is why they have appointed people to head up government
:16:10. > :16:18.agencies who don't believe in the existence it
:16:19. > :16:21.This is true for energy, the EPA, education -
:16:22. > :16:23.Betsy Davos doesn't believe in public education!
:16:24. > :16:26.He won't get anything done if he hasn't filled 550 positions.
:16:27. > :16:31.There is a grand master plan and that is the same we have lived
:16:32. > :16:34.in for 40 years, which is what Reagan said,
:16:35. > :16:36."Government isn't the solution, it is the problem."
:16:37. > :16:39.It is Margaret Thatcher's vision, that there is no such thing
:16:40. > :16:43.Donald Trump went before the people and said he would protect healthcare
:16:44. > :16:46.and social security, and it is finishing the job that
:16:47. > :16:59.Margaret Thatcher believed in a community of communities,
:17:00. > :17:02.Donald Trump has tapped into the zeitgeist.
:17:03. > :17:05.Two thirds of American voters who don't have a degree
:17:06. > :17:17.I don't know if it was the zeitgeist.
:17:18. > :17:20.145 academics and writers issued a statement in support of Trump,
:17:21. > :17:23.and one was a philosophy professor at the University of Texas,
:17:24. > :17:25.he said Trump is pro-American, concerned about immigration
:17:26. > :17:28.because of economic effects and about factories closing down.
:17:29. > :17:40.Trump is concerned about Donald Trump.
:17:41. > :17:42.This is his animating mission in life.
:17:43. > :17:45.It is to enrich himself and build himself up.
:17:46. > :17:50.Anybody who tells themselves otherwise is...
:17:51. > :17:53.You are dismissing a lot of people who voted for him.
:17:54. > :17:56.I am not dismissing all of the people who voted for him.
:17:57. > :17:59.He ran a deeply dishonest campaign at a moment which,
:18:00. > :18:01.as you say, he tapped into the antiestablishment
:18:02. > :18:03.zeitgeist, running against an extremely establishment candidate
:18:04. > :18:06.with a message that was, "All is hell," to which Hillary Clinton
:18:07. > :18:08.said, "All is well," and it isn't well.
:18:09. > :18:13.There is a tremendous amount of fear.
:18:14. > :18:16.Those who didn't vote for Donald Trump, the majority
:18:17. > :18:18.of American people, too many were not excited about Hillary
:18:19. > :18:28.She had depressed voter turnout compared with Obama in 2012.
:18:29. > :18:31.They felt the system had failed them.
:18:32. > :18:33.I believe the Democratic Party has abandoned workers,
:18:34. > :18:49.not just white workers, the working class generally.
:18:50. > :18:52.And those most vulnerable in the working class in the US
:18:53. > :18:56.So, what they peddled was identity politics mostly about name-checking
:18:57. > :18:59.different groups, recognising them, "I see you," and not offering
:19:00. > :19:03.Hillary Clinton opposed the strong campaign for a 15 dollar minimum
:19:04. > :19:18.This is what it means to fight for women's rights,
:19:19. > :19:21.who are overwhelmingly the women who are in those precarious jobs,
:19:22. > :19:23.working multiple jobs to pay the bills.
:19:24. > :19:25.She represents a particular kind of identity politics,
:19:26. > :19:37.a leaf in feminism that benefits elites.
:19:38. > :19:41.To go back to the white working class, it is the white male working
:19:42. > :19:43.class who feel neglected who voted for Donald Trump.
:19:44. > :19:45.Professor Angus Steed and Anne Cates, Nobel laureate,
:19:46. > :19:49.they are at Princeton university, they have done a great deal of study
:19:50. > :19:58.They showed that the mortality rate for the poorly educated for white
:19:59. > :20:02.They are more likely to die than black or Hispanic males.
:20:03. > :20:16.They are likely to be at the bottom of the rung.
:20:17. > :20:19.That is what I said, they have been perhaps neglected
:20:20. > :20:27.That is where Trump spoke to them and they heard him.
:20:28. > :20:30.The solution is not to say, "Well, forget identity politics,
:20:31. > :20:32.we will just focus on the white working class."
:20:33. > :20:37.They are not the only ones discarded by this system.
:20:38. > :20:40.It is true that they are the ones who had the highest
:20:41. > :20:44.They had the better jobs, they tended to have those
:20:45. > :20:46.manufacturing jobs that paid enough to support a family,
:20:47. > :20:48.you know, in the auto sector and so on.
:20:49. > :20:52.So it is untrue that they have suffered the most under
:20:53. > :20:56.In fact the wealth gap between white and black in the United States has
:20:57. > :20:58.widened, because, since 2008, since the financial crisis,
:20:59. > :21:00.it was overwhelmingly black Americans targeted
:21:01. > :21:06.They have lost an enormous amount of wealth.
:21:07. > :21:09.If you are in the higher part of the economic hierarchy you have
:21:10. > :21:20.There is more a sense of betrayal perhaps among those white men that
:21:21. > :21:23.are taking their own lives, whether drugs, suicide and that
:21:24. > :21:32.death by despair study is in the book.
:21:33. > :21:35.So are you not with your arguments now playing into people's fear,
:21:36. > :21:37.uncertainty and doubt, by saying, "Look what's happening," you know,
:21:38. > :21:40."Donald Trump could spark a war," for instance,
:21:41. > :21:42."to push up oil prices," and that kind of thing.
:21:43. > :21:50.Are you not playing into people's fears?
:21:51. > :21:55.What I am trying to offer is a plan that goes beyond just saying no
:21:56. > :21:59.to Trump, resistance to Trump, this hashtag in response to "Trump
:22:00. > :22:04.I think we need to resist the most dangerous of his policies.
:22:05. > :22:08.We have seen some inspiring resistance in response
:22:09. > :22:14.We saw the huge women's march on Trump's first day on the job.
:22:15. > :22:18.The problem is, even if we resist every one of the attacks,
:22:19. > :22:27.we would still end up in the same place we were when Donald Trump
:22:28. > :22:30.was elected, and that was the ground that produced Donald Trump.
:22:31. > :22:34.We have to get to the issues he was able to play on in order
:22:35. > :22:37.Jeremy Corbyn's campaign shows the power of a bold,
:22:38. > :22:46.The leader of the Labour Party in the UK.
:22:47. > :22:51.He was dozens of seats less than the Conservatives.
:22:52. > :22:56.He started to do better when they issued their manifesto,
:22:57. > :22:58.which was so bold, which was about healthcare,
:22:59. > :23:01.which was about jobs, which was about free education.
:23:02. > :23:11.That is what you want to promote for the United States?
:23:12. > :23:16.I think it is the only way of resisting and defeating Trumpism.
:23:17. > :23:32.People get exhausted by only protesting.
:23:33. > :23:35.I think what will keep people in the long haul is a vision
:23:36. > :23:40.Who has that vision among the leaders in the United States'
:23:41. > :23:48.I am not sure we have seen exactly who that leader is yet.
:23:49. > :23:51.Bernie Sanders has part of it, Elizabeth Warren has part of it,
:23:52. > :23:54.Nina Turner has part of it, the new head of Our Revolution,
:23:55. > :23:57.which is the congressional wing of Bernie Sanders's campaign.
:23:58. > :23:59.I also think a social movements have it at the grassroots,
:24:00. > :24:08.and that is where I'm putting a lot of my hope right now.
:24:09. > :24:11.Naomi Klein, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.
:24:12. > :24:45.We may only be early on in summer but on Friday we saw the seventh
:24:46. > :24:46.occasional ready where we saw temperatures beat 30