:00:00. > :00:19.Zimbabwe is gripped by a severe drought which has left a third
:00:20. > :00:22.of its 15 million people dependent on food aid.
:00:23. > :00:25.The state is running out of dollars, workers go unpaid and unemployment
:00:26. > :00:28.is very high - a dire situation that presents the opposition
:00:29. > :00:31.in the country with an opportunity in nationwide elections in 2018.
:00:32. > :00:34.My guest today is Welshman Ncube, who leads his own
:00:35. > :00:36.faction of the Zimbabwean opposition party Movement
:00:37. > :00:39.for Democratic Change, known as MDC-N.
:00:40. > :00:41.The main opposition parties have now formed an alliance,
:00:42. > :00:44.but can they put aside their differences and focus
:00:45. > :01:16.on defeating President Mugabe and his ruling Zanu-PF?
:01:17. > :01:27.Welshman Ncube, welcomed to HARDtalk. -- welcome. Your new
:01:28. > :01:32.opposition alliance is moving too slowly. There are other opposition
:01:33. > :01:38.forces that are filling the vacuum? Firstly, it is not moving as fast as
:01:39. > :01:43.we would want to move. The important thing is that it has been confirmed
:01:44. > :01:53.across the political spectrum that it is absolutely necessary that we
:01:54. > :02:00.should come together, that we should create a single corner, which is
:02:01. > :02:05.claimed to sign in the regime change next year. I am happy and confident,
:02:06. > :02:10.that at the end of all these processors, we will have an
:02:11. > :02:15.effective and inclusive coalition of all opposition parties who are
:02:16. > :02:21.interested in challenging the regime together. Let me tell you what I
:02:22. > :02:25.mean. The younger generation, particularly, are very much taking
:02:26. > :02:29.up the charge at a grassroots level. Social media is becoming critical.
:02:30. > :02:35.That is where the opposition lies. We have seen demonstrations becoming
:02:36. > :02:43.much more common, and they are seizing the initiative from you. It
:02:44. > :02:49.is correct that the young people are impassioned, it is correct that they
:02:50. > :02:57.are using more modern ways of communicating. Things like Facebook
:02:58. > :03:01.and Twitter, they are all talking to each other and talking to us. I
:03:02. > :03:07.think that is something to be commended rather than complained of
:03:08. > :03:14.by the mainstream opposition. What is necessary is how we can put
:03:15. > :03:20.together linkages with the young people who are active on the ground,
:03:21. > :03:27.to ensure that we harness that energy and that anger towards the
:03:28. > :03:32.elections in 2018, so that the young people can actually vote and express
:03:33. > :03:38.themselves through the only thing which will deliver change, which is
:03:39. > :03:42.speaking out. Is more than just the means that young people are using.
:03:43. > :03:49.It is actually the personalities who have emerged on the scene as better
:03:50. > :03:56.leaders than you, perhaps. There is a young pastor who started a social
:03:57. > :04:01.media campaign against President Mugabe. He is calling on Zimbabweans
:04:02. > :04:06.to be the agent that change the government, he says their generation
:04:07. > :04:09.must realise that we cannot subcontract our struggle through the
:04:10. > :04:14.previous one, and we cannot mortgage it to their selfish desires. He is
:04:15. > :04:22.critical of your generation for failing to deliver. That is very
:04:23. > :04:27.understandable. We encourage new leaders, we encourage young people
:04:28. > :04:32.to be part of this strategy. What is important at the end of the day is
:04:33. > :04:39.that, when we get to the elections, we come together, young and old. So
:04:40. > :04:45.that we can fight from the same corner. I do not think that we
:04:46. > :04:49.should be concerned that the young people are doing what they are
:04:50. > :04:54.doing. I do not think we should complain that they have raised
:04:55. > :05:00.issues that we have not succeeded with in the past. Such as relieving
:05:01. > :05:05.our country from Mugabe's dictatorship. I don't think those
:05:06. > :05:09.things should unduly concern us. What should be of concern is how we
:05:10. > :05:17.can harness those energies, how we can work together, how we can agree
:05:18. > :05:22.on a common ground to get to the next election. It is very good that
:05:23. > :05:29.young people are doing what they are doing. Work together to the extent
:05:30. > :05:33.that you may have a young person standing in the presidential
:05:34. > :05:38.elections in 2018? The past we spoke has said he is toying with the idea.
:05:39. > :05:43.It is possible that he and others are toying with the idea. What I
:05:44. > :05:50.have said is important is that we must remain engaged with them as
:05:51. > :05:57.political players. We must talk to each other. We need a civil society
:05:58. > :06:04.in its various manifestations to work with us. We can collectively
:06:05. > :06:09.agree on and so that we give ourselves a realistic chance of
:06:10. > :06:15.defeating Mugabe. You are saying it's a possibility the charismatic,
:06:16. > :06:19.Young 39-year-old could be an opposition candidate in the
:06:20. > :06:24.elections? That is a distinct possibility? I am saying that we
:06:25. > :06:32.should talk to each other as political partners in civil society,
:06:33. > :06:37.and I am saying that the ruler of the opposition is yet to be
:06:38. > :06:42.determined, and I hope when that person is determined, they will be
:06:43. > :06:50.realistic enough to understand the capacity and be ways to defeat
:06:51. > :06:54.Mugabe. Not in an idealistic way. That does not sound like a ringing
:06:55. > :06:59.endorsement. The point I am trying to make is that you say yes, it does
:07:00. > :07:04.extend their hands to the young generation. More than 75% of
:07:05. > :07:10.Zimbabwe's population is under 35. However, voters of that age group
:07:11. > :07:17.are only 5%. That is because they are disillusioned and are looking
:07:18. > :07:21.for alternatives. The leader of the African Democratic Party says, I
:07:22. > :07:27.don't see the situation changing because these people lack integrity.
:07:28. > :07:34.She says, we cannot have the same current players that we have, so why
:07:35. > :07:44.not just move off the stage? The example that you are giving of
:07:45. > :07:53.muscling, of the African Democratic Party, they just signed up to join
:07:54. > :07:58.the coalition of Democrats, which is in the efforts of talking to
:07:59. > :08:03.everybody to ensure that we build that all-inclusive coalition to
:08:04. > :08:11.fight the next election -- Marcelline. What is critical at the
:08:12. > :08:18.end of the day is that we come together, that by agreement and
:08:19. > :08:23.consensus we agree on the person who should be the opposition leader in
:08:24. > :08:27.the forthcoming election. I do not think it should be about putting
:08:28. > :08:34.anybody off the stage, I do not think it should be the young people
:08:35. > :08:39.being impassioned, it should be a recognition that we are in special
:08:40. > :08:43.circumstances, we are in a national crisis which requires collective
:08:44. > :08:48.unity. We need the young people, we need the old people, but more
:08:49. > :08:52.importantly about the young people, in the previous elections, we have
:08:53. > :08:57.had a situation where a great number of young people are not registered
:08:58. > :09:04.to vote. Our challenge for next year is to ensure that this time around,
:09:05. > :09:10.the young people get to be registered, get to buy into the
:09:11. > :09:17.political struggles, and crucially, on election day, they get to vote
:09:18. > :09:22.for the candidate and coalition. Do it is opposition alliance that you
:09:23. > :09:28.formed a couple of months ago. It is your faction of the MDC-N and the
:09:29. > :09:35.veteran opposition leader, whose party is known as MDC-T. There is
:09:36. > :09:40.also another veteran who is now heading her national people's party.
:09:41. > :09:44.You have all come together. In April, you said that the
:09:45. > :09:54.understanding between you was that building blocks towards beginning to
:09:55. > :09:57.build an opposition. You are still using words like beginning,
:09:58. > :10:03.building. You should have started years ago. It is a bit late. I agree
:10:04. > :10:07.that we should have been where we are today, maybe one year or two
:10:08. > :10:14.years ago. It is better late than never. We should recognise that time
:10:15. > :10:19.is of the essence, there is less than a year to the actual
:10:20. > :10:23.proclamation of an election. We deserve the criticism that we have
:10:24. > :10:29.not a word with the speed and urgency that is required. But we are
:10:30. > :10:36.acting and we are moving forward. We are talking to each other. We are
:10:37. > :10:40.talking to each other on a daily basis. We have a view to complete
:10:41. > :10:46.this as early as possible. I accept no contest at all that that is late
:10:47. > :10:53.in the day, but better late than never. You said in April that you
:10:54. > :10:58.would apologise to Zimbabweans for the splitting, you also said that he
:10:59. > :11:10.would vary the hatchet. What exactly what -- was that apology for? What
:11:11. > :11:18.are the differences between you two? Because of the MDC-N, and the
:11:19. > :11:24.Movement for Democratic Change split in 2005. That is well known. We
:11:25. > :11:31.disagreed on a number of things. What we are apologising for in that
:11:32. > :11:35.time, we needed to spend more time talking to each other. We needed to
:11:36. > :11:40.spend more time finding ways of remaining together and resolving
:11:41. > :11:47.those differences, rather than walking away from each other in
:11:48. > :11:51.seeking to pursue the problem from different corners. That has resulted
:11:52. > :11:55.in where we are today. That struggle did not succeed because we
:11:56. > :12:01.dissipated our energies and fought from different corners. We
:12:02. > :12:05.acknowledge that to remain united, and if we had remained united, we
:12:06. > :12:10.probably would have defeated Mugabe a long time ago. Thank you for
:12:11. > :12:17.clarifying that. The deputy to more than Tanqueray, the best-known of
:12:18. > :12:23.the opposition candidates who stood in the past against Mugabe, he says
:12:24. > :12:28.that his boss is a natural leader of the grand coalition. However, he did
:12:29. > :12:36.reveal that he has cancer. Is more than perhaps to seek to leave the
:12:37. > :12:47.ground coalition? -- lead. I am not a medical person to be able to speak
:12:48. > :12:52.about President Changarri's health. I have met him a number of times
:12:53. > :12:55.over the past few months, we have had very extensive discussions. I
:12:56. > :13:08.have not gotten the impression that he is in any medical state which
:13:09. > :13:16.will hinder our progress. If it is an inclusive protest and coalition,
:13:17. > :13:20.I believe it will succeed. From interactions with him, I do not
:13:21. > :13:24.share the medical concerns that some might express. But I am not a
:13:25. > :13:32.medical doctor. What is important is that we must keep in mind that, up
:13:33. > :13:37.until now, President Changarri is the only person who has previously
:13:38. > :13:41.defeated Mugabe in an election. We must recognise that from previous
:13:42. > :13:45.elections, he has secured the highest number of votes and it is
:13:46. > :13:53.important, whatever coalition we build, to ensure that those who have
:13:54. > :14:00.supported him all along our able to continue to support the collective
:14:01. > :14:05.position that we will agree on. You are referring to the contested
:14:06. > :14:14.result in 2008? It is worth reminding you that in 2013, Mugabe
:14:15. > :14:19.won 61% of the vote. Changarri won 34% of the vote, and your faction
:14:20. > :14:28.won just 3%. One professor said, despite the unreliability of the
:14:29. > :14:32.electoral what -- watchdogs in Zimbabwe, he believed that Mugabe
:14:33. > :14:36.won the election. You talked about a collective view as to who should be
:14:37. > :14:41.the presidential candidate for the united opposition. Who is it? You
:14:42. > :14:47.said it could be Changarri, the representative from the national
:14:48. > :14:50.people's party said, I am going to make a bid for it as well. There is
:14:51. > :15:02.you, presumably. Who will it be? We don't know who it will be. We
:15:03. > :15:07.need to agree on who it will be. What we are underlining is the
:15:08. > :15:14.importance of using objective criteria in coming to the
:15:15. > :15:18.determination of who that candidate should be and one important tool is
:15:19. > :15:21.that when we agree on that particular candidate, we must all do
:15:22. > :15:26.so unconditionally in the rally behind that candidate if we are to
:15:27. > :15:33.have a fighting chance in dislodging Robert Mugabe from power. You just
:15:34. > :15:39.summarised the 2013 result and that is what we have to reverse. Who is
:15:40. > :15:47.going to be the presidential candidate? One Zimbabwean analyst
:15:48. > :15:52.says, all the claptrap about the coalition, borders around who should
:15:53. > :15:56.lead and not what the coalition should deliver and that is the
:15:57. > :16:02.point. You are all jockeying for position, wanting to be the top
:16:03. > :16:08.person. On the contrary, the conversations which are taking place
:16:09. > :16:13.right now about the details of the coalition structure, details of
:16:14. > :16:21.policy positions which the coalition should push on to pursue should it
:16:22. > :16:27.win the election, they are about discussing what sort of things we
:16:28. > :16:31.will do to implement the unimplemented elections at the local
:16:32. > :16:39.government and parliamentary level and so forth and... But who will
:16:40. > :16:44.stand against President Mugabe? The election is next year, surely we
:16:45. > :16:49.should know. Is it you, or is it Joice Mujuru, is a Morgan
:16:50. > :16:55.Tsvangirai, or is it another person? I don't know it will be. I have an
:16:56. > :17:03.opinion on who it should be. Can you tell us? Discussions are ongoing. It
:17:04. > :17:09.will be inappropriate for me and in bad faith while we are talking to
:17:10. > :17:15.others to come on HARDtalk and express that personal opinion. Could
:17:16. > :17:19.it be you? They might find comfort in declaring themselves... Could it
:17:20. > :17:27.be you? It could be anybody we agree on. If it's you, can I put to you a
:17:28. > :17:33.quote which I'm sure you must be familiar with by now. In 2012,
:17:34. > :17:38.according to Wikileaks, Christopher Dell, then the outgoing Ambassador
:17:39. > :17:42.to Zimbabwe, said that Welshman Ncube has proved to be a divisive
:17:43. > :17:46.and destructive player in the opposition ranks and the sooner he
:17:47. > :17:52.is pushed off the stage, the better. Yes, he did say that, and what is
:17:53. > :17:56.the question? Perhaps you might be too divisive figure to be a
:17:57. > :18:06.potential candidate, to stand against Robert Mugabe next year?
:18:07. > :18:11.Zeinab, if that was true, it will follow the day on the day we agree
:18:12. > :18:15.on the candidate, it will not be a person with a collective leadership
:18:16. > :18:20.regards as divisive. I do not accept that assessment but this is not
:18:21. > :18:25.about me, it is about us coming with a candidate that has the potential
:18:26. > :18:30.and the capacity to rally the people, to motivate the people to
:18:31. > :18:39.defeat the Mugabe regime. I would rather we not personalise it and I
:18:40. > :18:44.would rather we do not pre-empt the conversations that are taking place.
:18:45. > :18:51.All I know is that we, in selecting a candidate to lead that coalition,
:18:52. > :18:58.we must choose a person, one who will be able to unify all of us and
:18:59. > :19:03.two, a person who has sufficient support at the grassroots level to
:19:04. > :19:07.rally as many voters to our side as possible, a person that we will be
:19:08. > :19:12.able to work with post- victory to deliver change. You said you are
:19:13. > :19:19.working on a strategy and frankly the problems persisting Zimbabwe are
:19:20. > :19:22.huge. Two thirds of people in poverty, a quarter currently need
:19:23. > :19:29.food aid. We know that a national debt is approaching three time --3
:19:30. > :19:33.times GDP, Budget deficit out of control, civil servants cannot draw
:19:34. > :19:40.their salaries from banks. The state of affairs cannot go on and you have
:19:41. > :19:48.people, seasoned observers like our politics lecturer at the University
:19:49. > :19:53.of Zimbabwe, who says politics will fail because they don't have a
:19:54. > :20:02.strategy to tackle all these issues. What we have, as an opposition, we
:20:03. > :20:08.are criticised a great deal by academics, by intellectuals, by
:20:09. > :20:14.social commentators, at cetera and I say too much of that criticism, it
:20:15. > :20:20.is merited but what is important is to recognise that we realise the
:20:21. > :20:26.challenges that we face are immense. The National crisis is deep. The
:20:27. > :20:31.country will only sink deeper into this quagmire of we do not deliver
:20:32. > :20:38.change in 2018. We are talking to each other. We are going to develop
:20:39. > :20:44.a strategy, that we are going to do everything that we can to ensure
:20:45. > :20:49.that we motivate people. We reach out to young people, to come out and
:20:50. > :20:53.vote in 2018. All of those things are the critical ingredients which,
:20:54. > :21:08.in my view, will deliver victory in 2018. An analyst in Zimbabwe, says
:21:09. > :21:12.that even without Mugabe, ZANU PF, in its shambolic state, will remain
:21:13. > :21:23.in power or they will be a government of national unity in 2018
:21:24. > :21:31.and that seems to be supported by a Afrobarometer survey that says ZANU
:21:32. > :21:37.PF still hasn't -- has an edge if it were held tomorrow. I have no doubt
:21:38. > :21:43.about that but I do not agree that ZANU PF is invincible and it can't
:21:44. > :21:51.be defeated. What is important is that we must recognise the things we
:21:52. > :21:58.have been able to do to steal elections. Against all of those vote
:21:59. > :22:06.rigging strategies employed in the past. If we have a modicum of a
:22:07. > :22:11.fairly violent - free election, I believe that ZANU PF can be
:22:12. > :22:16.defeated. I interact with people on a daily basis. I know that all the
:22:17. > :22:20.people want is to be given a fighting chance by a united
:22:21. > :22:26.opposition in the promise that they are going to come out in the numbers
:22:27. > :22:32.and liberate themselves are literally from the crisis that we
:22:33. > :22:37.have. Finally, one of the groups involved in the opposition forces,
:22:38. > :22:44.particularly amongst the younger -- younger generation. , has been
:22:45. > :22:49.calling for non-violent resistance against the government. You said you
:22:50. > :22:52.wanted to walk -- work with all opposition forces. Is that the
:22:53. > :22:56.strategy you would support to increase the mass protests, the
:22:57. > :23:04.demonstration, staying away from work? We say it as MDC and as the
:23:05. > :23:12.various coalition parties, whether under the coalition and Democrats,
:23:13. > :23:27.we have said so even in the bilateral conversations we have with
:23:28. > :23:31.the NPP, in our conversations with the MDCT, it is important for every
:23:32. > :23:37.Zimbabwean, for every social movement, so we can wake -- work
:23:38. > :23:43.collectively and press all the pressure points that will help us
:23:44. > :23:53.develop the Mugabe regime next year. Welshman Ncube in Johannesburg,
:23:54. > :23:58.thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.