:00:00. > :00:09.Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:10. > :00:23.Mohammed Fairouz, a youthful artist who has spent much
:00:24. > :00:26.of his creative life defying boundaries and stereotypes.
:00:27. > :00:28.His work ranges from symphonies to opera, to unique fusions
:00:29. > :00:34.He's an Arab educated and resident in the West,
:00:35. > :00:37.an outspoken advocate for creative freedom who nonetheless rails
:00:38. > :00:42.against western cultural imperialism.
:00:43. > :00:45.His aim is to foster cultural crossover rather than confrontation,
:00:46. > :01:20.but can this artist avoid taking sides?
:01:21. > :01:32.Mohammed Fairouz, welcome to heart talk. It is great to be here. Arab
:01:33. > :01:38.parents, but schooling and residential life a lot of it in the
:01:39. > :01:45.US and some in the UK. In terms of the tradition which is the bedrock
:01:46. > :01:50.of your music, would you say it is Western or Arab? The truthful answer
:01:51. > :01:57.is that it is much more of a mess than that. Music has no respect for
:01:58. > :02:07.borders, sound has no respect for walls. You go to Jerusalem and you
:02:08. > :02:20.hear the bells from the Hollis -- wholly support intermingle with the
:02:21. > :02:24.mask. Put it this way, people who speak many languages, they talk
:02:25. > :02:30.about the language they are dreaming. Do you have a musical
:02:31. > :02:38.language which is your instinctive first language? That is where music
:02:39. > :02:44.is particularly special. It bypasses all of that because you cannot have
:02:45. > :02:52.figurative... I cannot paint a fork in music, it gets passed that and
:02:53. > :02:56.goes to the things that are truly universal about human beings, the
:02:57. > :03:02.beating of the heart, the human voice, it is energy say you cannot
:03:03. > :03:09.have a monopoly on energy or sound. They have mixed for thousands of
:03:10. > :03:15.years so if I am to be honest and genuine in answering that question,
:03:16. > :03:22.because of what I know, I know how much of a mess it is. It is a very
:03:23. > :03:30.frank answer but you have been to some very formalised musical
:03:31. > :03:34.schools, you have done the conservatory school in the US and
:03:35. > :03:42.also worked with classical Arabic musicians. When you say to them I am
:03:43. > :03:46.a fusion kid, do they say you cannot do that because you are not respect
:03:47. > :03:52.think the integrity of our tradition? When I went to the
:03:53. > :03:58.conservatory, what was really fascinating was walking into music
:03:59. > :04:04.history calls and you sort of start with the Greeks and then you skip
:04:05. > :04:09.over, there is a blind spot and then you are in the Middle Ages and you
:04:10. > :04:15.do not touch on any nonwestern using. You literally have are book
:04:16. > :04:22.called following Western music but when you go to Aleppo, what you
:04:23. > :04:30.discover all of the stuff from Hildegard, Mozart, Bach, came from
:04:31. > :04:41.another civilisation and vice-versa. You find people saying more often,
:04:42. > :04:48.wow, we recognise that. That is one of our lullabies. That is one of the
:04:49. > :04:54.things we much people off the wall, to serenade our loved ones. You have
:04:55. > :05:04.written symphonies and operas, works we serve associate with traditional
:05:05. > :05:13.music. I am alive. I am not a classical composer. Most at was a
:05:14. > :05:20.classical composer, 18th century period. I am not that old. You said
:05:21. > :05:27.I could get off the plane and here put Java in music and they get to a
:05:28. > :05:32.club and listen to Beyonce and then a band in Beirut and if I still
:05:33. > :05:38.sounded like Mozart after all of that, it would be kind of weird. How
:05:39. > :05:48.far it you take this fusion approach? I think as far as it has
:05:49. > :05:53.always been taken. I think people have been exchanging ideas
:05:54. > :06:00.creatively for centuries, millennia and every Renaissance has been
:06:01. > :06:06.refined by the breaking down of boundaries and walls, sharing ideas,
:06:07. > :06:13.discovering what people have in common and amplifying each other's
:06:14. > :06:19.strengths. To give an idea of how you do this, let's play a clip. This
:06:20. > :06:30.is a fascinating performance by an Indian dancer using your music.
:06:31. > :07:39.It is beautiful to look at. I wonder how much collaboration there is,
:07:40. > :07:44.when you work with the beautiful dancer, you have worked with famous
:07:45. > :07:53.poets, how deep is the collaboration. I have to admit, this
:07:54. > :07:59.was found well before we imagined Donald Trump would ever be our
:08:00. > :08:07.president but it was proposed to be in a reality TV fashion that made me
:08:08. > :08:14.very suspicious. When the BBC said they wanted to do this, they said
:08:15. > :08:20.you have five days. From scratch. I said, that is impossible. I have
:08:21. > :08:29.never met the woman. She has never been to New York. And not only was
:08:30. > :08:32.there this Bollywood dance tradition that have thousands of years of
:08:33. > :08:39.baggage and history that I did not know much about, there was also
:08:40. > :08:45.David cracker, the clarinettist, was bringing a Jewish tradition of...
:08:46. > :08:53.You can hear it... Where you go to those Eastern European villages were
:08:54. > :09:00.those people are no longer there, the Holocaust, they left the
:09:01. > :09:04.country, whatever, they left the country, they are dead, or they were
:09:05. > :09:10.killed by the ideas were not dead. You still here the sound. It is
:09:11. > :09:14.impossible to kill that energy, impossible to kill an idea even
:09:15. > :09:20.though you can kill people. There was the classical stodgy thing of
:09:21. > :09:26.the quartet as well coming together and what is magical is that it
:09:27. > :09:31.worked. It worked. It is like we could have not spoken the same
:09:32. > :09:35.language and yet the fluidity of the human body, the universality of what
:09:36. > :09:43.she was doing, she understood the reason. There were things that were
:09:44. > :09:48.just be on the need to try to translate and it worked and we did
:09:49. > :09:51.it in five days and I think that is sort of like a controlled
:09:52. > :09:58.experiment. It is really interesting. Let's switch focus, you
:09:59. > :10:02.talk with such passion about finding common ground with an artist like
:10:03. > :10:08.her, here you have never met before, purely in artistic terms but a lot
:10:09. > :10:14.of your work, the recent work, has had a real world political edge to
:10:15. > :10:20.it. To what extent these days are you as an Arab American feel that
:10:21. > :10:31.you need to use your art to explore politics? Well, I think an interest
:10:32. > :10:39.in statecraft and politics has been something that has defined by work.
:10:40. > :10:47.For many years. I think that when a politician comes on the show, they
:10:48. > :10:52.are basically coming to sell something and they are asking people
:10:53. > :10:56.to give them something - power. And an artist is doing something that is
:10:57. > :11:04.very different from that. They are offering ideas and insight into the
:11:05. > :11:08.internal human condition and societies are human beings
:11:09. > :11:15.multiplied... Offering ideas all delivering polemics and various
:11:16. > :11:20.specific critiques. Just looking at recent things, the dictator 's wife,
:11:21. > :11:25.which you put on a Washington, DC just before the Trump in duration
:11:26. > :11:30.seem to be a direct message about authoritarian corruption that might
:11:31. > :11:37.be taken as a your feeling, Warwick, about Donald Trump coming to the
:11:38. > :11:42.White House. Of course but I think that the thing about this, Kennedy
:11:43. > :11:48.had a great way of putting this, if Donald Trump was in the White House
:11:49. > :11:55.during the Cuban missile crisis I probably will never have been born.
:11:56. > :12:00.The temperance, the idea of understanding that power has its
:12:01. > :12:07.limitations, that wilting power has its limitations and indeed it
:12:08. > :12:15.Kennedy did say where power corrupts poetry cleanses. There is a special
:12:16. > :12:19.accountability that artists can hold people in power too. Your
:12:20. > :12:26.consciousness is very much affected by being an Arab American in an era,
:12:27. > :12:32.as we know, Donald Trump in particular with his travel ban on
:12:33. > :12:39.certain Muslim countries, appears to associate Muslims... These are my
:12:40. > :12:46.words not his... Muslims from particular countries with terrorism.
:12:47. > :12:53.As an American citizen, how does that make you feel? I would like to
:12:54. > :13:00.emphasise that I do not really think... I think Donald Trump
:13:01. > :13:07.represents something that is an outgrowth of at least 60 years of
:13:08. > :13:12.decline in one of our political parties in our country that has
:13:13. > :13:18.refused to participate in our democratic process, the Republican
:13:19. > :13:24.Party and as far as his views on the Muslims are concerned, I think this
:13:25. > :13:30.cut to the heart of what we would call a clash of civilisations. This
:13:31. > :13:35.is the reason why a clash of civilisations is not happening.
:13:36. > :13:41.Sadiq Khan was marching in pride, the Mayor of London, and he probably
:13:42. > :13:47.shares a lot of use with Angela Merkel, treating people with
:13:48. > :13:55.dignity, being inclusive is, it these are global cities. Insisting
:13:56. > :14:01.that someone is your enemy... I am going to stop you. I think it is
:14:02. > :14:08.useful to have a representation in Sound and vision. In the Netherlands
:14:09. > :14:13.you put on a show, the new prince, which played with images of US
:14:14. > :14:17.politics including a character appearing to be based on Donald
:14:18. > :14:27.Trump. Let's have a quick look at that now. (MUSIC PLAYING). .
:14:28. > :14:36.You have tried preventing us from living. You have tried preventing us
:14:37. > :15:09.from living. Chains and irons. Chains and irons.
:15:10. > :15:30.Pounding of locks. Keys and bars. Keys and bars. So many arresting
:15:31. > :15:35.images that I don't know where to begin almost. One thing strikes me.
:15:36. > :15:45.You have put on different forms of music, particular lay operas, which
:15:46. > :15:49.clearly carry a critique of power, especially Western exercise of that
:15:50. > :15:56.power. But one thing you have in your career is anything that really,
:15:57. > :16:01.clearly takes on, confronts, and criticises, the Arab world, you
:16:02. > :16:13.don't talk about that. Why is that? I criticise political power around
:16:14. > :16:17.the world. I wrote several articles criticising several Arab
:16:18. > :16:26.governments. I have been vocal in my critique. What I do think is that
:16:27. > :16:30.the West and the Arab world can help each other if they approach each
:16:31. > :16:33.other in a more genuine way. I think there is this sense that we are
:16:34. > :16:41.going to criticise imperialism coming from the West and the West is
:16:42. > :16:49.going to take 40-year-old critiques of the Arab world rather than other
:16:50. > :16:53.things we can solve together. There are universal values we have
:16:54. > :17:01.together. You are a publicly out gay man and an artist and frankly, you
:17:02. > :17:05.would find life in many parts of the Arabian Gulf, Saudi Arabia, the
:17:06. > :17:10.Emirates, where your parents are from, you would find life there in
:17:11. > :17:17.possible, not least because being gay, being actively gay, is a
:17:18. > :17:20.criminal offence that is severely punishable in Saudi Arabia,
:17:21. > :17:24.potentially by death itself. But you don't speak out about that at all. I
:17:25. > :17:31.have spoken out about sexual repression in Middle Eastern
:17:32. > :17:36.countries and Western countries. If I may enter up, you have criticised
:17:37. > :17:45.Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, for you the hour mark
:17:46. > :17:57.what you regard as culturally inappropriate analysis. -- for what
:17:58. > :18:01.you. You say they are using a completely Western and non-nuanced
:18:02. > :18:05.understanding of homosexuality in the Arab world, but I don't
:18:06. > :18:09.understand that. They are approaching it with a noninclusive
:18:10. > :18:14.point of view that does not take into consideration... I mean, you
:18:15. > :18:21.define me as a gay man which I don't identify with in that way... What do
:18:22. > :18:31.you mean by that? There are really no Arabic words for "Gay" or
:18:32. > :18:38."Straight." And I Axley find the idea of being "straight" kind of
:18:39. > :18:42.strange. There is a tradition and it is quite different. We are coming to
:18:43. > :18:45.a point, I think, in the Western world, where we are talking about
:18:46. > :18:52.non- binary definitions of sexuality. OK? We are talking about
:18:53. > :19:01.fluidity in sexuality. The Arab world, go back, thousands of years
:19:02. > :19:05.of tradition in this form. There are a lot of people in the Arab world
:19:06. > :19:11.who would like to identify with the tradition that they belong to and
:19:12. > :19:17.enjoy equal rights with their fellow citizens. I believe that all Arab
:19:18. > :19:29.nations must guarantee equal protection is for all citizens of.
:19:30. > :19:38.Would your work, could it be put on in your country of heritage, the
:19:39. > :19:42.United Arab Emirates, or Saudi, Kuwait, Bahrain, is there any
:19:43. > :20:01.ability for you to do this in the Arab world itself? My song cycle,
:20:02. > :20:05.called Songs From Ibin Havesh, based on his same-sex love poetry. They
:20:06. > :20:09.have been done in the United Arab Emirates. I have another song with
:20:10. > :20:18.baritones and male singers in the West who have identified and seen
:20:19. > :20:24.this. And it has been done over there. And they are not only done,
:20:25. > :20:28.they are taught and memorised by people over there. I will ask you
:20:29. > :20:33.before we end about something very current and relevant for you being
:20:34. > :20:41.in the UK. You put on a performance at a big Manchester Arts Festival, a
:20:42. > :20:47.musical performance. You are doing it only weeks after a man of Libyan
:20:48. > :20:53.origin, a young man, a militant, appearing to be loyal in his own way
:20:54. > :21:00.to so-called Islamic State, he put a bomb inside an Ariana Grande
:21:01. > :21:04.concert, killing women and children. Do you believe your music and your
:21:05. > :21:10.message about the bridge building and the cultural cross-fertilisation
:21:11. > :21:15.that can happen through music, do you think about, right now, can make
:21:16. > :21:19.a difference to the thinking of people in a city like Manchester?
:21:20. > :21:26.Not why itself. I mean, it has been said you must love one another or
:21:27. > :21:35.die. He meant it. We have two options. We have a serious issue
:21:36. > :21:40.with violence erupting throughout the world. Some of it is linked to
:21:41. > :21:49.extremist thought and to radicalisation. I would urge an
:21:50. > :21:56.uncoupling of what is, as a matter of fact, a small number of people
:21:57. > :22:01.from the second-largest civilisation in human history. That gives them
:22:02. > :22:07.legitimacy that they crave. It gives them association they do not need to
:22:08. > :22:11.have... But they are Muslims and they are coming out of a very small
:22:12. > :22:17.number of mosques inspired by a very small number of militant imams and
:22:18. > :22:23.other leaders, and... Absolutely. Absolutely. You cannot deny the
:22:24. > :22:28.Muslim origin of this problem. Absolutely not. But what you can say
:22:29. > :22:38.and understand are once again fact. You know, we have had zero suicide
:22:39. > :22:44.attacks in most countries. The Netherlands, UAE, we have just had
:22:45. > :22:52.under 3000 people die of suicide attacks between 1982 and 2015 in the
:22:53. > :22:56.United States. We have had, in the United States, at least 30,000
:22:57. > :23:06.people die as a result of gun violence every year since 1982 at
:23:07. > :23:10.least. I see the crosses, the KKK, I see they have them and burn them. I
:23:11. > :23:14.do not associate them with such a mainstream movement as Christianity,
:23:15. > :23:18.because the majority of people, Christians, have nothing to do with
:23:19. > :23:21.that. What you need is people who believe in civilisation, believing
:23:22. > :23:27.perversity, who believe in inclusion, people from all
:23:28. > :23:30.backgrounds, Sadiq Khan, Angela Merkel, from the UAE, to come
:23:31. > :23:35.together and oppose people who incite hate. They need to do that in
:23:36. > :23:41.the US, especially against people like Donald Trump. Your music is a
:23:42. > :23:45.part of that? It is forced to be a part of it because I am living in
:23:46. > :23:49.this age. Mohammed Fairouz, we have the end it there. But thank you so
:23:50. > :24:13.much for being on HARDtalk thank you. Thank you.
:24:14. > :24:19.Plenty going on with our weather in the next few days.
:24:20. > :24:21.Ups and downs to come during the week ahead.
:24:22. > :24:25.If you like sunshine, the weekend ended on a high note