:00:00. > :00:21.Welcome to HARDtalk I am Sarah Montague. The Fall Arab nations that
:00:22. > :00:25.cut all ties with Qatar because they accused it of funding and supporting
:00:26. > :00:30.terrorism have toned down their demands of the Gulf state. They have
:00:31. > :00:36.replaced a list of 13 specific demands with six principles. They
:00:37. > :00:41.include combating extremism and terrorism, preventing financing and
:00:42. > :00:46.safer havens, and suspending all acts that incite hatred or violence.
:00:47. > :00:51.So, will it resolve the crisis that has gripped the Gulf? My guest today
:00:52. > :00:55.is from one of those four countries, Omar Saif Ghobash, who is one of the
:00:56. > :01:03.UAE's top diplomat. Is his country guilty of copper -- hypocrisy and
:01:04. > :01:31.what have they achieved by isolating Qatar? Omar Saif Ghobash, welcome to
:01:32. > :01:38.HARDtalk thank you. 13 demands replaced with six principles. What
:01:39. > :01:41.has changed? Well, the 13 demands were actually presented in a
:01:42. > :01:46.confidential manner to the mediator to the Mayor of Kuwait. They were
:01:47. > :01:51.never meant for publication. It was Qatar who within an hour of
:01:52. > :01:56.receiving the least publicised that. And so we really feel that that was
:01:57. > :02:00.kind of undermining the mediation efforts. The principles on which of
:02:01. > :02:06.those demands are based on what we have now come up with. And
:02:07. > :02:13.presenting that to Qatar underworld in a public manner. Is it a toning
:02:14. > :02:17.down of the demands? I don't think it is a toning down, no, the
:02:18. > :02:22.principles are the same. It may be a question of how the principles are
:02:23. > :02:26.worked out in reality. So, there is no, I don't think there is dispute
:02:27. > :02:30.about the need globally to prevent the funding of extremism and
:02:31. > :02:34.terrorism. No, these were specific demands. What was wrong about going
:02:35. > :02:38.public with them? Were you embarrassed about them? No, we were
:02:39. > :02:47.not embarrassed. What happens in the east is the desire to its -- save
:02:48. > :02:52.face. We engaged in a confidential manner in passing on their demands.
:02:53. > :02:57.This is the same reason why in 2013 and 2014 the agreements with signed
:02:58. > :03:01.with Qatar were also kept confidential and secret on the
:03:02. > :03:05.request of the Qataris government. In the spirit of preserving the face
:03:06. > :03:09.of the Qataris we kept the demands secret. OK, well they have those 13
:03:10. > :03:17.demands made public. You stand by them, do you? The principles are an
:03:18. > :03:22.explanation as to what the demands are based on. So the demands are
:03:23. > :03:25.still there. Your charge against the Qataris is that they were supporting
:03:26. > :03:31.and funding terrorism. What evidence do you have that they funded
:03:32. > :03:36.terrorism? I cannot present you evidence here. We have recordings,
:03:37. > :03:42.voice recording. We have video evidence that we've managed to pick
:03:43. > :03:46.up in the field, whether that is in Libya, in Yemen. Everybody knows for
:03:47. > :03:52.the last few years Qatar has had a close relationship with al-Nusra,
:03:53. > :03:57.which is referred to as Al-Qaeda affiliated. My assumption, our
:03:58. > :04:02.assumption is if you are affiliated with Al-Qaeda, you are Al-Qaeda. He
:04:03. > :04:06.recordings show what? And we have detailed what evidence you have?
:04:07. > :04:10.There will be voice recording. Of what, though? People giving
:04:11. > :04:14.instructions, known individuals giving instructions to known
:04:15. > :04:19.individuals in Libya, Yemen and Syria on carrying out certain acts.
:04:20. > :04:24.For example, a specific example I would like to give you, which is on
:04:25. > :04:29.Yemen. We were in the process of engaging with Al-Qaeda, the Qataris
:04:30. > :04:35.well alongside us. We have information, I don't have, but we as
:04:36. > :04:39.a government has information that our Qatari allies informed Al-Qaeda
:04:40. > :04:44.of our precise location and what we were planning to do. Then we
:04:45. > :04:51.received four suicide bombers at our tour -- door and we were injured.
:04:52. > :04:56.They deliberately sabotaged the attack and try to kill UAE soldiers?
:04:57. > :05:02.We have had them dying as a result of Qatari activities. Why don't you
:05:03. > :05:05.make the evidence public? Because this is a cultural issue where we
:05:06. > :05:09.really don't like to have this kind of public confrontation. There is
:05:10. > :05:14.always the desire to continue... It is a legal issue, isn't it?
:05:15. > :05:18.Absolutely, yes. So is all of the stuff that is going on, this
:05:19. > :05:22.conversation on the funding of terrorism, extremism and protein
:05:23. > :05:28.narratives. It could very well convert into a legal issue. You have
:05:29. > :05:33.made some very serious allegations. You, surely, need to go public with
:05:34. > :05:37.the evidence for that? You know, what is funny as we have gone public
:05:38. > :05:43.with a whole set of issues. What we find is that the receptivity is not
:05:44. > :05:47.quite there. For us in the Middle East to begin to speak about
:05:48. > :05:52.changing the narrative of extremist Islam, to cut the source of funding,
:05:53. > :05:57.to pull back on those platforms that have been promoting this extremist
:05:58. > :06:02.thinking, when we in the Middle East take that responsibility, we would
:06:03. > :06:07.expect the global community to come and stand by us. It is extremely
:06:08. > :06:14.important. If you put information in the public domain, that shows what
:06:15. > :06:18.you are saying happens, then large parts of the world, the whole world
:06:19. > :06:22.will understand why you are saying what you are doing and they will --
:06:23. > :06:26.there will be some response to it. Our understanding is many
:06:27. > :06:29.governments in the west do understand in operational terms what
:06:30. > :06:35.the Qataris have been doing. You won't make a public? This is not the
:06:36. > :06:39.time to make a public, no. One of the concerns that some people have
:06:40. > :06:43.not least is when this row blew up in May there was a newspaper, a
:06:44. > :06:50.number of newspaper reports, not least in papers which attributed
:06:51. > :06:55.comments to the Emir of Qatar, saying he was speaking favourably of
:06:56. > :07:00.Iran, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and has the last. It was reported in
:07:01. > :07:07.the Washington Post that various US intelligence to show those reports
:07:08. > :07:11.were a hack -- Hezbollah. Were a result of a hack orchestrated by
:07:12. > :07:16.your country, the UAE. What do you say to that? Well, our ambassador in
:07:17. > :07:19.Washington has come out with a statement saying that's not true.
:07:20. > :07:24.The government has come out and said the same thing. I think that, you
:07:25. > :07:29.know, what is truly important here is not whether there was or was it a
:07:30. > :07:34.hack, it is the situation. I don't think the Emir of Qatar or deny he
:07:35. > :07:40.has a strong relationship with... It absolutely matters! If the UAE
:07:41. > :07:44.hacked Qatar to suggest... The UAE did not ask, orchestrate or plan or
:07:45. > :07:50.ask someone else to hacked Qatar? Not at all stop what categorically
:07:51. > :07:54.no? No. Do you accept someone categorically did? I don't think
:07:55. > :08:00.that there was any hacking. So, you think that the Amir of Qatar did say
:08:01. > :08:04.those things, you don't accept those denials? We don't accept their
:08:05. > :08:13.denials but we know that they have established links with Hamas and the
:08:14. > :08:17.Iranians, they met with the head of the brigade, a guy famous for
:08:18. > :08:23.slaughtering Sunnis in Iraq and Syria. What denial is there? You are
:08:24. > :08:28.of course ambassador in Russia, have you asked the Russians on this? No,
:08:29. > :08:33.I haven't. Why not? It simply didn't come up. Are you not curious to
:08:34. > :08:37.establish what information there is? On what precisely? On what exactly
:08:38. > :08:43.was said and whether there was any hacking. The Russians, if there was
:08:44. > :08:49.hacking, then, you know, it may have been non-government parties. This is
:08:50. > :08:52.not the kind of stuff people would admit or talk about openly,
:08:53. > :08:57.certainly not at my level. You're the one who suggested it might have
:08:58. > :09:01.been the Russians. No, this is a newspaper report from the United
:09:02. > :09:06.States. I am just picking on what I had heard. You believe it was the
:09:07. > :09:10.Emir of Qatar who was saying these things that were reported as
:09:11. > :09:15.inflaming, creating tensions and dividing the Gulf? It is a position
:09:16. > :09:19.we have witnessed for many years, so, yes, I believe it is entirely
:09:20. > :09:23.within his politics and his character to have said something
:09:24. > :09:25.like that. The fact the US intelligence services are reported
:09:26. > :09:31.as saying that the UAE was behind the attack at White...? It was a
:09:32. > :09:35.newspaper report quoting intelligence officials. We don't
:09:36. > :09:38.have anything official from the White House or the State Department
:09:39. > :09:44.or anything else. For the time being we can put that to rest. You don't
:09:45. > :09:47.trust anybody, anything said about that, but you absolutely believe
:09:48. > :09:52.that the Emir of Qatar said those things? We believe it is in keeping
:09:53. > :09:57.with his political positions and with his act of engagement in the
:09:58. > :10:02.region, yes. OK, so, we come to the demands it had set out. Now, you
:10:03. > :10:08.say, you are suggesting that they still remain, these effectively 13
:10:09. > :10:14.demands? Yes. One of them on the list of 13 demands was that Qatar
:10:15. > :10:18.stop all means of funding for individuals, groups or organisations
:10:19. > :10:26.that have been designated as terrorists by Saudi Arabia, UAE
:10:27. > :10:31.can't --, Egypt and other countries. What gives you, Saudi Arabia, other
:10:32. > :10:36.countries have the right to decide in Qatar's terms who is a terrorist?
:10:37. > :10:39.It is very interesting. We are focused, especially in the list of
:10:40. > :10:44.demands we gave them, not on particular groups we have decided
:10:45. > :10:48.on. We have looked at what is internationally recognised as a
:10:49. > :10:51.terrorist. If you are looking at a UN list, European Union list, or an
:10:52. > :10:56.American list, we are fairly certain. If you are talking about
:10:57. > :10:59.funding Al-Qaeda, or the people who say Al-Qaeda affiliated groups, it
:11:00. > :11:04.is fairly clear they are terrorists. I am not talking about that. It is
:11:05. > :11:08.clear in the 13 list, the third point specifically mentioned
:11:09. > :11:11.well-known groups. The fourth point was these individuals, groups or
:11:12. > :11:18.organisations. The reason I say this is that with the extra information
:11:19. > :11:22.that came with those demands, there were three Qatar -based charities
:11:23. > :11:26.who the UN itself says has over the years built a strong partnerships
:11:27. > :11:28.with these organisations based on shared humanitarian principles which
:11:29. > :11:34.are strictly nonpolitical? They say that. Do you accept that actually
:11:35. > :11:38.you have probably swept in people who shouldn't be on there? It is
:11:39. > :11:42.quite possible. What is also possible is that the UN doesn't have
:11:43. > :11:46.full information and maybe we should take it up with them and pass on all
:11:47. > :11:49.of the information that we have to clarify this issue. Because the
:11:50. > :11:53.suspicion is that what you and Saudi Arabia and others are doing is
:11:54. > :11:57.labelling political opponents as terrorists because you don't like
:11:58. > :12:01.what they are saying and you want to silence them. No, I don't think that
:12:02. > :12:07.is the case. Actually, if you look at Gulf - Arab social media, public
:12:08. > :12:11.media, there is vigorous debate taking place around events every few
:12:12. > :12:16.days. You can see a kind of sudden surge of very kind of polarised
:12:17. > :12:20.debate between liberal voices, and extremely conservative voices. So,
:12:21. > :12:23.you know, I don't think that is the issue. The issue here is when we are
:12:24. > :12:29.talking about very motivated extremist agendas. That is one of
:12:30. > :12:35.the problems we are dealing with here. There is a charge of hypocrisy
:12:36. > :12:40.that could be levelled at the UAE over this. The US department of
:12:41. > :12:43.state said in 2015 the terrorist organisations exploited the UAE to
:12:44. > :12:49.send and receive financial support and that sometimes your country was
:12:50. > :12:53.loath freezing assets because of political situations. I don't know
:12:54. > :12:57.what that is about and I find it interesting that the term used was
:12:58. > :13:00.exploiting the system. I understand exploiting the system taking place.
:13:01. > :13:03.I can assure you over the last few years we have increased our
:13:04. > :13:07.monitoring through the central bank and other financial mechanisms to
:13:08. > :13:12.increase the monitoring on exactly what is going on in our financial
:13:13. > :13:16.system. Because there was a problem. Not least UAE support for the
:13:17. > :13:23.Taliban. I don't think we ever supported the Taliban. We recognised
:13:24. > :13:29.the Taliban for Wakely reason. We are one of three who recognise the
:13:30. > :13:32.Taliban. We needed an administrative partner to deal with the Afghan
:13:33. > :13:36.population we have in the country working as workers. We know that
:13:37. > :13:40.when US Embassy cables were leaked in 2009 that the Taliban related
:13:41. > :13:48.finance officials went to the UAE to raise or move funds and there was
:13:49. > :13:53.even a suggestion of arms and procuring arms, at which you may be
:13:54. > :13:57.now on top of, the problem may have gone away, but it was a problem
:13:58. > :14:00.than. These problems never go away because you have to Qamshili monitor
:14:01. > :14:05.and make sure. It is actually an effort to make sure you are on top
:14:06. > :14:08.of it. It is clear that the Emirates, Dubai and Abu Dhabi are
:14:09. > :14:11.pubs that bring people from the region together. And it is
:14:12. > :14:15.absolutely possible that someone met someone else in our territory to
:14:16. > :14:19.discuss those kinds of issues. I know through my own work and through
:14:20. > :14:22.the government's work that we are very, very focused on this. We are
:14:23. > :14:28.not interested in supporting... And Saudi Arabia? Saudi Arabia sits
:14:29. > :14:31.alongside you pointing the finger at Qatar and the response has been very
:14:32. > :14:37.widespread criticism. Tom Wilson, fellow at the centre to the response
:14:38. > :14:40.to radicalisation at terrorism at the think tank The Henry Jackson
:14:41. > :14:44.Society says Saudi Arabia is undoubtedly at the top of the list
:14:45. > :14:48.of countries who have been of advancing extremism.
:14:49. > :14:57.It is a very interesting distinction I would like to make between Qatar
:14:58. > :15:09.in Saudi Arabia. With the revolution in Iran and the desire to build a
:15:10. > :15:12.more cohesive sheer understanding. Because of that, American charitable
:15:13. > :15:20.organisations have set up schools and educated pupils. In 2017, under
:15:21. > :15:24.the current leadership of Saudi Arabia, is that still the case?
:15:25. > :15:29.There are so many ways in which the Saudis have clipped the wings of the
:15:30. > :15:33.clerical class to make sure that they understand that there is a
:15:34. > :15:37.limit to how much influence and decision-making by clerics can have.
:15:38. > :15:41.I would say there is a very big difference. The clerical class is
:15:42. > :15:47.becoming self-conscious about the messages... The New York Times, last
:15:48. > :15:51.year, you can tell me this is out of date. The kingdoms spent on told
:15:52. > :16:01.millions promoting the radical form of Sunni ideology that claimed
:16:02. > :16:08.responsibility for the 9/11 attacks and fan the flames of Islamic State.
:16:09. > :16:12.It is a question to pose. IT pros that question in the book I have
:16:13. > :16:16.Britain. As far as Saudi Arabia, you are pointing the finger at Qatar.
:16:17. > :16:22.Are you saying that Saudi Arabia is not guilty of those things? I will
:16:23. > :16:26.not say that they are a flourishing liberal democracy, but nowhere in
:16:27. > :16:32.our part of the world... Do we have that kind of perfect narrative,
:16:33. > :16:38.peaceful, optimistic narrative. We all have the problem. Where we are
:16:39. > :16:43.different to Qatar, the rest of the state of the golf, Egypt are taking
:16:44. > :16:47.strong steps to change that narrative. In Saudi Arabia, that is
:16:48. > :16:52.actually happening. The problem is that we find with Qatar, they still
:16:53. > :16:57.believe it is the narrative that will ultimately win on a populist
:16:58. > :17:04.basis across the Arab world. You made the point, and you make it in
:17:05. > :17:08.your book, the importance of almost a Western approach to free speech.
:17:09. > :17:13.Here, one of the demands is to close down Al Jazeera. The fact that it
:17:14. > :17:19.doesn't appear in the principles, are you accepting that Al Jazeera
:17:20. > :17:26.should stay open? There are a couple of things we need to be clear about.
:17:27. > :17:30.We need to differentiate between Al Jazeera English and Arabic. Talking
:17:31. > :17:40.about Arabic. That is a venomous platform. It is about poison. Are
:17:41. > :17:46.you insisting it be closed down? We say it effectively should be closed
:17:47. > :17:55.down as an editorial that says, hate the West, hate the Shia, hate the
:17:56. > :18:02.outsider, the Christian, the Jew. It is an extraordinary territorial list
:18:03. > :18:06.form of free speech, it was as if China ordered Britain to close down
:18:07. > :18:12.the BBC. I don't think there is a narrative between the two. This is a
:18:13. > :18:18.request to stop poisoning people with an extremist narrative. Henry
:18:19. > :18:22.Jackson... One of the things about Al Jazeera is that they are
:18:23. > :18:27.incredibly effective. Somebody said to me, there are whole of channels
:18:28. > :18:31.that have the same narrative. The problem is that Al Jazeera is so
:18:32. > :18:39.effective and appealing that it pulls a fall in. Essentially, they
:18:40. > :18:43.are extremely effective. It should still close? It should change to the
:18:44. > :18:50.extent that it cannot be recognised as Al Jazeera today, Al Jazeera
:18:51. > :18:55.Arabic. Al Jazeera English is in this because those journalists who
:18:56. > :18:59.do not understand the Arabic language, they are doing a great job
:19:00. > :19:06.and say, this has to be freedom of speech. What you are fighting for is
:19:07. > :19:12.freedom of hate speech. It is incredibly provocative, emotionally
:19:13. > :19:15.charged... Whether it is the economist or Al Jazeera, many people
:19:16. > :19:19.make the point that the difficulty in the region is that there is not
:19:20. > :19:24.enough of a free flow of ideas. You have something that is very unusual
:19:25. > :19:28.and you want to shut it down. I don't think it is true. We want to
:19:29. > :19:33.shut down the editorial that says, hate is the way forward.
:19:34. > :19:39.Frustration, anger, destruction is the way forward. That is what Al
:19:40. > :19:46.Jazeera Arabic does. You mention in your book, letters to a young
:19:47. > :19:51.Muslim... You lost your father as a result of a terrorist attack as a
:19:52. > :19:55.young man. These letters, or at least inspired by the idea of what
:19:56. > :20:06.you want to communicate to your young sons. Which is what? Which is
:20:07. > :20:11.that in the modern world, in 2017, 2016 when I wrote the book, it is
:20:12. > :20:15.very important that any desire to be true to your religion, your face,
:20:16. > :20:20.your principles, you should not lose sight of the fact that the world is
:20:21. > :20:28.full of manipulators, people who are ready to use your good faith for
:20:29. > :20:34.destructive purposes. Do your religion and the tax is in
:20:35. > :20:39.documents, the exclamatory books, ask yourself whether this is really
:20:40. > :20:45.appropriate for the 21st century. I would say that ultimately, you have
:20:46. > :20:50.got to remember that you or an individual, with your dignity and
:20:51. > :20:55.self-respect, you are the most precious thing. You have to hold
:20:56. > :21:02.onto yourself. Who are those who are manipulating your religion? Well,
:21:03. > :21:09.let's... I don't want to talk about Qatar again. There are state is
:21:10. > :21:15.using the large number of young Arab males for their purposes. Jihadis
:21:16. > :21:21.are expendable. Use them and move on. They are like bullets. That is a
:21:22. > :21:25.major crisis. By clerics who don't have a full understanding of what
:21:26. > :21:32.century they are living in and who insist on holding people back, the
:21:33. > :21:40.narrative that the cleric knows and has access to... You blame some
:21:41. > :21:46.imams for the poisonous version of Islam that can be spread around the
:21:47. > :21:51.world? Yes, I think so. I also think that the world has changed over the
:21:52. > :21:55.last 20 years in such a way that, what may be appropriate for a
:21:56. > :21:59.village in a small town, a modulus, cut off from the west of the world,
:22:00. > :22:07.that is no longer appropriate. When we look at Muslim charitable
:22:08. > :22:12.organisations, when we start funding and teaching our version of Islam in
:22:13. > :22:17.western societies in Asia, we have to be a bit more sensitive to what
:22:18. > :22:23.it is we are exporting -- rest. Are we exporting our basic principles?
:22:24. > :22:31.Are we consolidating basic principles of Islam? Or are we
:22:32. > :22:35.exporting a homogenous society that didn't have access to the outside
:22:36. > :22:41.world? Where is the change coming from? It begins with an awareness of
:22:42. > :22:46.what is going on. We look at reports like the Henry Jackson Society and
:22:47. > :22:51.wonder, maybe there is a point. Maybe what was aggressive language
:22:52. > :22:57.used in a village in the Middle East is not appropriate to be used in
:22:58. > :23:02.London or Birmingham or Manchester. It is extremely important that we
:23:03. > :23:07.are self-conscious about this. That is down to individual, moderate
:23:08. > :23:11.Muslims speaking up? Yes, and also up to people like me who have a
:23:12. > :23:17.voice within government to make suggestions and proposals, to lobby
:23:18. > :23:25.for diversity. How did your sums respond? My younger son responded
:23:26. > :23:29.extremely well, my older son, for whom it was Britain, who is now 16,
:23:30. > :23:33.he read a couple of chapters and decided he had a long life to live
:23:34. > :23:41.and would take his time reading it. He is exactly the target age, isn't
:23:42. > :23:44.he? Yes, he is. I will say that I am not particularly worried about him
:23:45. > :23:50.being radicalised. To an extent, I was trying to make a statement to
:23:51. > :23:56.myself and my society. Not necessarily my son, but your son,
:23:57. > :24:00.your daughter, they may need the support that I tried to provide in
:24:01. > :24:07.the book. It is a framework that links the texts and the very sort of
:24:08. > :24:14.abstract legal texts that we have two-hour humanity. Close to need to
:24:15. > :24:19.be linked. If you see a disconnect between the texts that we talk about
:24:20. > :24:26.and our humanity, then we are in trouble. Omar Saif Ghobash, thank
:24:27. > :24:46.you very much for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you very much.
:24:47. > :24:50.There was still quite a lot of energy in the atmosphere,
:24:51. > :24:52.during Wednesday afternoon some pretty intense thunderstorms
:24:53. > :24:56.broke out across north Wales and parts of north-west England.
:24:57. > :24:59.Weather Watchers pictures coming through of torrential downpours,