0:00:02 > 0:00:07Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.
0:00:08 > 0:00:09Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:17I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20After recent terrorist attacks, the UK is preoccupied with questions
0:00:20 > 0:00:25about how best to counter the jihadist threat.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27For politicians, the focus is on policing, intelligence
0:00:27 > 0:00:29and negotiating powers.
0:00:29 > 0:00:37My guest today has a different point of view.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39Her son Rashid was radicalised in Birmingham, went
0:00:39 > 0:00:42to fight with the Islamic State in Syria and was killed
0:00:42 > 0:00:45at the age of 19.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47She now offers support to other families facing the dangers
0:00:47 > 0:00:50of radicalisation at home.
0:00:50 > 0:00:58How best to slam the door on the jihadis?
0:01:23 > 0:01:28Nicola Benyahia, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32I wonder what kind of impact the news of the last few weeks
0:01:32 > 0:01:33has upon you?
0:01:33 > 0:01:35We've seen this spate of horrifying terrorist attacks
0:01:35 > 0:01:36in the United Kingdom.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38The focus has been on jihadists inside the UK.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40This is very personal for you.
0:01:40 > 0:01:46I wonder what the impact is?
0:01:46 > 0:01:48It's been very difficult, especially because you
0:01:48 > 0:01:50have Manchester and then recently London in close proximity.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53It really brings it home, how much of a problem
0:01:53 > 0:01:57there is and there are days when I think, why am I doing this?
0:01:57 > 0:02:03Is anybody listening?
0:02:03 > 0:02:07But lately it kind of really brings it home that we need to carry on,
0:02:07 > 0:02:10there is a huge problem that we really need to tackle.
0:02:10 > 0:02:12Do you feel the resonance, the direct connection,
0:02:12 > 0:02:14through your own experience and what you lived
0:02:14 > 0:02:18through with your son?
0:02:18 > 0:02:21Because there is this phrase that was used in a TV
0:02:21 > 0:02:23documentary which happened to feature one of the attackers
0:02:23 > 0:02:27in the most recent London attack and the film which was made,
0:02:27 > 0:02:29which included him, was called The Jihadi Next Door,
0:02:29 > 0:02:36which in a sense your son was.
0:02:36 > 0:02:40Yeah, he was a normal boy and nobody would have thought twice
0:02:40 > 0:02:40and thought anything.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44Like I said, it was like a bolt out of the blue.
0:02:44 > 0:02:49He was one of the least...
0:02:49 > 0:02:51The person you would least expect it from.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55So let's go back to 2015, the spring of 2015.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58You say it was a bolt from the blue when 19-year-old Rasheed left home
0:02:58 > 0:03:09and simply didn't come back.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12I think many people living lives as they do with their own families
0:03:12 > 0:03:15will find that hard to understand, that he could flee or escape
0:03:15 > 0:03:35to Syria to fight and you have not an inkling that it was in his head?
0:03:35 > 0:03:38I completely understand that a lot of people have kind of questioned me
0:03:38 > 0:03:42and said, are you sure there wasn't anything you could pick up?
0:03:42 > 0:03:45You have to remember, this is over a year and a half period.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48There were changes within him and I saw that.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51You mean, now that you look back, you believe the process was over
0:03:51 > 0:03:52a year and a half?
0:03:52 > 0:03:55Yes, and now when I look back, in hindsight, and especially
0:03:55 > 0:03:59what I know today about radicalisation, I can pick up those
0:03:59 > 0:04:03signs and clues.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06But even that is very difficult to decipher what is actually
0:04:07 > 0:04:09a teenager going through some kind of teenage anguish
0:04:09 > 0:04:18and the radicalisation process.
0:04:18 > 0:04:22Naively, we kind of thought, it's just some kind of phase he's
0:04:22 > 0:04:24going through and he will come through it.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27But especially about six months before he left that was quite
0:04:27 > 0:04:30a decisive moment because actually he actually had gone completely back
0:04:30 > 0:04:32to his normal self.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35He was joining in on family celebrations, the activities
0:04:35 > 0:04:38we were doing, he was a much more happy, fun loving boy like before.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42That's why it was really like a bolt out of the blue when he went
0:04:42 > 0:04:44on the 29th of May.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46But, again, that was the turning point in him.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49He decided to actually leave and go to Syria at that point.
0:04:50 > 0:04:52So we call it the preparation phase of actually going
0:04:52 > 0:04:55and what he did was actually turn us away, our eyes away,
0:04:55 > 0:04:58from possibly thinking that he may be going there.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01He just adopted a passive, cooperative stance to in a sense
0:05:01 > 0:05:09disguise what was going on in his head.
0:05:09 > 0:05:13All of this seems to me that it matters so much because everyone
0:05:13 > 0:05:15from intelligence operatives to academics and sociologists
0:05:15 > 0:05:17are trying to understand what goes on to turn
0:05:17 > 0:05:19apparently normal, mostly young men into killers.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22You know, with this sort of what everyone calls
0:05:22 > 0:05:24jihadist, fundamentalist ideology and frankly hate in their hearts.
0:05:24 > 0:05:31Are you any closer to understanding it today?
0:05:31 > 0:05:33Certainly, from what I've learnt about the process,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36I can look back on where it went wrong and what
0:05:36 > 0:05:39was going on with my son and I certainly can see
0:05:39 > 0:05:42that there were points of possible intervention that I could have
0:05:42 > 0:05:45turned it around, now that I have the right tools and knowledge
0:05:45 > 0:05:58within me, but I didn't.
0:05:58 > 0:05:59Tell me.
0:05:59 > 0:06:01Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04Now when you look back, where do you think you missed opportunities?
0:06:04 > 0:06:07There were opportunities where he wanted to make a difference.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10He wanted to do something within the community and make good.
0:06:10 > 0:06:12That's something I always encouraged with my children.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15There was one where he wanted to help the Muslims
0:06:15 > 0:06:16within our community.
0:06:16 > 0:06:16In Birmingham?
0:06:16 > 0:06:27Absolutely.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30He made an appointment and they didn't turn up.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33He had made effort to wake up early, which was unusual for him,
0:06:33 > 0:06:36and they didn't turn up and that really disappointed
0:06:36 > 0:06:38him and he felt sort of demoralised about it.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41I think then the recruiters came in and they gave him
0:06:41 > 0:06:44something else to make a difference, and that was in Syria.
0:06:44 > 0:06:48So I could have actually, at that point, if I had known
0:06:48 > 0:06:51at the time how important it was, I knew it was something he wanted
0:06:51 > 0:06:55to do, but I didn't know how significant it was, I could have
0:06:55 > 0:06:57gone with him and said, right, we'll do this together,
0:06:58 > 0:06:59let's look for an alternative.
0:06:59 > 0:07:01But I missed the opportunity, unfortunately.
0:07:01 > 0:07:03Let's talk about Islam in all of this.
0:07:03 > 0:07:05You are a committed Muslim, I think you converted yourself
0:07:05 > 0:07:10when you were 19...
0:07:10 > 0:07:13That's correct.
0:07:14 > 0:07:15You were brought up in Wales.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18You married an Algerian man and together you had children,
0:07:18 > 0:07:20including Rasheed, and you brought them up as Muslims.
0:07:20 > 0:07:23Rasheed as a teenager, especially in the last year
0:07:23 > 0:07:26and a half, did he have fierce theological arguments with you?
0:07:26 > 0:07:29Do you think Islam was an important part of what was happening
0:07:29 > 0:07:31inside his head, to turn him into this extremist?
0:07:32 > 0:07:34I don't think it was Islam that was the turning point
0:07:34 > 0:07:36or anything like that.
0:07:36 > 0:07:38Like you said, I brought up my children as Muslims,
0:07:38 > 0:07:42but because I am a convert, I used to talk about my family
0:07:42 > 0:07:45and about the balance of having to be integrated as well.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48So I don't think it was anything to do with Islam, I think
0:07:48 > 0:07:52it was actually just the fact that somebody had come at a very
0:07:52 > 0:07:55vulnerable stage in his life and kind of utilised that.
0:07:55 > 0:07:56Particularly again because at the same time
0:07:56 > 0:07:58I was going through some difficulties obviously
0:07:58 > 0:08:10with the Trojan Horse scandal.
0:08:10 > 0:08:12People watching might not know all about that,
0:08:12 > 0:08:14but you're a school governor in Birmingham,
0:08:14 > 0:08:16where there was the accusation that extreme
0:08:16 > 0:08:18fundamentalist ideologues from the Muslim community
0:08:18 > 0:08:21were trying to lever in like-minded teachers and governors into schools
0:08:21 > 0:08:23to sort of in a sense brainwash the pupils,
0:08:23 > 0:08:31and you were a governor at one of the schools?
0:08:31 > 0:08:37Yes, I was a governor at that school at the time and had
0:08:38 > 0:08:41been for 12 years, and obviously with all of the pressure
0:08:41 > 0:08:48and scrutiny that was going on at the time I was under a lot
0:08:48 > 0:08:51of, sort of stress or whatever, and back and forth in lots
0:08:51 > 0:08:55of meetings.
0:08:55 > 0:08:59My son could see that and could see that, I had given my time over those
0:08:59 > 0:09:02years and then what happened, I think this was one
0:09:02 > 0:09:05of the catalysts, the grievances, a recruiter came in and said,
0:09:05 > 0:09:08"look what they're doing to your mother and she has done
0:09:08 > 0:09:09all this work".
0:09:09 > 0:09:11Let me ask you a blunt question.
0:09:11 > 0:09:17You have talked about Rasheed being brainwashed and in a sense groomed.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20The idea that Rasheed was the victim, and yet in a sense
0:09:20 > 0:09:21Rasheed joined a murderous organisation, committed
0:09:22 > 0:09:24to the killing of all those not sharing that particular
0:09:24 > 0:09:25brand of extreme beliefs.
0:09:25 > 0:09:41He was responsible for his own actions, wasn't he?
0:09:42 > 0:09:45Yes, I don't dispute that he made that choice and that was incredibly
0:09:45 > 0:09:48difficult for me to comprehend, that he could hurt us so much.
0:09:48 > 0:09:50But I think it just...
0:09:50 > 0:09:52He was completely under the influence of whoever had
0:09:52 > 0:09:54recruited him and under this ideology.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57When they are like that it's like being in an abusive
0:09:57 > 0:09:57relationship.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59You don't see it in front of you.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02When people state the obvious, you don't see it.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04It takes time to sort of unprogramme them.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07So I think that was the difficulty with it, and I don't dispute
0:10:07 > 0:10:10that he made that choice and he was ultimately responsible
0:10:10 > 0:10:13for that, but also, like I said, I feel he was very
0:10:13 > 0:10:16much sort of under the influence of these people.
0:10:16 > 0:10:17Do you feel ashamed of him?
0:10:17 > 0:10:20I don't feel ashamed of him.
0:10:20 > 0:10:24I know I did my best until he was 18 and I did absolutely everything.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27He was an incredibly good boy until that point and somebody just
0:10:27 > 0:10:30ruined him, absolutely ruined him, in that year and a half,
0:10:30 > 0:10:32and that's what's difficult for me.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35But for 18 years he was absolutely brilliant, a very intelligent boy,
0:10:35 > 0:10:38and it was just very difficult for me to actually sort of...
0:10:38 > 0:10:40Sort of have the two and kind of...
0:10:40 > 0:10:48..that they're the same person.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52I want to move forward because it seems to me there are two
0:10:52 > 0:10:54important experiences you've had that could perhaps inform others.
0:10:54 > 0:10:58One is about how he was radicalised in the UK and you didn't see it.
0:10:58 > 0:11:17The other is how you dealt with him when he got to Syria.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20There was a two-month gap when he couldn't or wouldn't
0:11:20 > 0:11:23communicate with you, and then you opened up communication
0:11:23 > 0:11:25with him when he was with so-called Islamic State inside Syria.
0:11:26 > 0:11:28Did you try to persuade him to come home?
0:11:28 > 0:11:29Of course.
0:11:29 > 0:11:31All I ever wanted was for him to come back.
0:11:31 > 0:11:36But I knew as soon as he told me, after there was 2.5 months of him
0:11:36 > 0:11:39disappearing and I didn't hear from him, I knew there was a very
0:11:39 > 0:11:42slim chance I would be able to get him out alive.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45Even if I could change his mind, it was incredibly difficult
0:11:45 > 0:11:46to get him out.
0:11:46 > 0:11:48Yes, it was really hard.
0:11:48 > 0:11:49What was his frame of mind like?
0:11:50 > 0:11:51I know you had a loving relationship.
0:11:51 > 0:11:53Yeah.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56When he spoke to you on the telephone or texted
0:11:56 > 0:11:57on WhatsApp, what was he like?
0:11:57 > 0:12:00Was he still like your son or somebody you had lost?
0:12:00 > 0:12:02That was the incredible thing, he still was.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05Because I prepared myself, when he started communicating
0:12:05 > 0:12:06with me and throughout that time, especially
0:12:07 > 0:12:09within being under Isis, I thought the ideology would be more
0:12:09 > 0:12:15entrenched in him and he would get more desensitised towards his
0:12:15 > 0:12:17family, but it just didn't happen.
0:12:17 > 0:12:19And that's what surprised even people who...
0:12:19 > 0:12:20..some researchers I know.
0:12:20 > 0:12:24They were completely shocked about that,
0:12:24 > 0:12:29that I still managed to keep that bond and that was absolutely
0:12:29 > 0:12:32paramount to kind of, keep that bond between him and me.
0:12:32 > 0:12:36Which must have made the loss, his death, all the more
0:12:36 > 0:12:40difficult.
0:12:40 > 0:12:44Did you believe you would see him again, once he was there
0:12:44 > 0:12:45and with IS?
0:12:45 > 0:12:47No, I knew I was never going to see him again,
0:12:47 > 0:12:51to the point where I talked about his death to him.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53Throughout those months we talked about his death and how
0:12:53 > 0:13:06that was going to get communicated to me,
0:13:06 > 0:13:08because I knew from other experiences of other mothers
0:13:08 > 0:13:12who have gone through this that they don't get a call and it's
0:13:12 > 0:13:16quite often just put on the social media and that's how they find out.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19I actually said to my son, please don't do that to me.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22Please make sure somebody has the courtesy to phone me and tell me
0:13:22 > 0:13:24you are dead, and he promised me.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26That is one thing he actually promised me.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29This is difficult stuff, but when you read about the young
0:13:29 > 0:13:33men who kill themselves or were killed as part of the London
0:13:33 > 0:13:35attack or the Manchester suicide bombing, you know,
0:13:35 > 0:13:38you have to get your head around these young minds,
0:13:38 > 0:13:40where they are in a sense welcoming death.
0:13:40 > 0:13:40Yeah.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42Do you think Rasheed was welcoming death?
0:13:42 > 0:13:44Yes, he was and we spoke about that.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48When I talked about how I knew I wasn't going to get him out alive
0:13:48 > 0:13:51and I knew he would possibly face his death, he was...
0:13:51 > 0:13:53..he was ready for that.
0:13:53 > 0:13:55He knew that was possibly what was going to happen.
0:13:55 > 0:13:58So he certainly had that frame of mind, definitely.
0:13:58 > 0:14:02But I saw a change in him a week or two weeks before he got killed.
0:14:02 > 0:14:03He actually shifted.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06There was something in him that was clinging towards me...
0:14:06 > 0:14:08Clinging, as in softer and more vulnerable?
0:14:08 > 0:14:11He wanted my voice constantly to be the last voice he heard whenever
0:14:11 > 0:14:12he rang at home.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16He spoke to myself and my husband and his sisters, but he always
0:14:16 > 0:14:19asked me to come back on the phone because he wanted my voice.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23If it was going to be the last call, he wanted my voice to be
0:14:23 > 0:14:25the last one he heard.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28So he was certainly clingy, and that's because he was sent
0:14:28 > 0:14:31fighting for about seven weeks and he had seen things and I think
0:14:31 > 0:14:34he saw a lot of things that he wasn't prepared
0:14:34 > 0:14:36for, and that's when the shift happened within him.
0:14:36 > 0:14:38And I felt at that point, actually,
0:14:38 > 0:14:42there was hope, that I may have been able to change his mind,
0:14:42 > 0:14:44but unfortunately he got killed a couple of weeks later.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47What was the last thing he said to you?
0:14:47 > 0:14:50The last thing he said to me was, "I love you".
0:14:50 > 0:14:53It was always the one thing I said every time he rang,
0:14:53 > 0:14:55that he heard me say "I love you".
0:14:55 > 0:14:59Those were always the words I made sure he heard at the end
0:14:59 > 0:15:00of the communication.
0:15:00 > 0:15:04I didn't want him to feel I was judging him and I was angry
0:15:04 > 0:15:05with him, although I was.
0:15:05 > 0:15:06I had to contain that.
0:15:06 > 0:15:10I wanted to make sure he knew that I still loved him
0:15:10 > 0:15:11and he was still my son.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14If you could speak to Rasheed today, knowing what you know
0:15:14 > 0:15:18about what he did but also knowing what you know now about the ambition
0:15:18 > 0:15:21Islamic State has to wreak terror and murder on Britain and other
0:15:21 > 0:15:25societies they regard as the enemy, what would you say to Rasheed today?
0:15:25 > 0:15:29I don't know what I would say to him to be honest with you,
0:15:29 > 0:15:33I don't know if I would have words, I know what he would say to me.
0:15:33 > 0:15:37He was a very humble boy and even when he was kind of very...
0:15:37 > 0:15:40Sort of if we would have some arguments or anything he was never
0:15:40 > 0:15:42someone of saying, "Mumma, I'm sorry.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45I know if he could come back today he probably would have said,
0:15:45 > 0:15:47"I'm sorry, Mumma, I made a mistake."
0:15:47 > 0:15:51Let's talk about the very public debate that is so dominant now
0:15:51 > 0:15:54about what to do with this terrorist threat in Western societies,
0:15:54 > 0:15:55obviously particularly important and painful discussion
0:15:55 > 0:15:59in the UK right now.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02You've worked with a gentleman called Daniel Koehler in Germany,
0:16:02 > 0:16:03who is an expert on deradicalisation,
0:16:03 > 0:16:06and you set up your own Families for Life group
0:16:06 > 0:16:12here in the United Kingdom.
0:16:12 > 0:16:15Do you believe your experience gives you something important you can
0:16:15 > 0:16:16offer to this debate?
0:16:16 > 0:16:19Absolutely I do.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22I'm not just a trained counsellor by trade anyway but I've also gone
0:16:22 > 0:16:24through this, I've actually travelled across Europe and gone
0:16:24 > 0:16:28all over the place to get those answers, not just for myself,
0:16:28 > 0:16:30and I certainly know I have experienced those tools
0:16:30 > 0:16:33and the skills and the knowledge to pass on to other families
0:16:33 > 0:16:36and that's what I've been doing over these last months,
0:16:36 > 0:16:39is passing that on.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41Certainly a lot of families when they've come to me,
0:16:42 > 0:16:44they've often actually reported through the anti-terrorist hotline,
0:16:44 > 0:16:47which I'm glad of, but they then also have come to me and they've
0:16:47 > 0:16:51actually said to me when I've spoken to them and guided them
0:16:51 > 0:16:53through stuff to help them understand what's
0:16:53 > 0:16:55going on for the love one, they've actually said you're...
0:16:55 > 0:16:58They said I just feel validated, I'm not going crazy,
0:16:58 > 0:17:05and they felt almost reassured, so I know that's what families want.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09It seems to me there's a big trust issue here between many people
0:17:09 > 0:17:11in the Muslim community and the authorities,
0:17:11 > 0:17:13whether it be the police, the intelligence services, whatever.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17Do you see yourself as a sort of bridge between the two or do
0:17:17 > 0:17:20you see yourself as an alternative that if Muslims, perhaps in families
0:17:20 > 0:17:23like yours, where they're worried about a particular child
0:17:23 > 0:17:26within the family or whatever, you could be an alternative place
0:17:26 > 0:17:29where they could express their fears and concerns if they don't trust
0:17:29 > 0:17:37and will not go straight to the authorities.
0:17:37 > 0:17:48I think distrust not just on the side of the community
0:17:48 > 0:17:54but on the side of the authorities as well, quite often it is on both
0:17:54 > 0:17:56sides, the authorities wonder...
0:17:56 > 0:18:00Can they actually...
0:18:00 > 0:18:03Are they the right people to be talking amongst their community?
0:18:03 > 0:18:06It is trust on both sides and that needs to be bridged.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09That is missing?
0:18:09 > 0:18:12That needs to be happening, we need to work more closely together.
0:18:12 > 0:18:16The one thing I do say is I fear I can bridge that gap
0:18:16 > 0:18:22because already through obviously what I've gone through,
0:18:22 > 0:18:25and being very open about what I've gone through, I think that
0:18:25 > 0:18:29authenticity is what the community can see but then also
0:18:29 > 0:18:32the authorities because I work very closely with them and I never hid
0:18:32 > 0:18:36anything from them when I worked with them when they were going
0:18:36 > 0:18:37through the investigation.
0:18:37 > 0:18:41Does it help you or would it help you to have somebody specific
0:18:41 > 0:18:46to blame for what happened to Rasheed?
0:18:46 > 0:18:49We know young men like him use the Internet and they perhaps find
0:18:49 > 0:18:52a lot of the ideology and indoctrination through websites
0:18:52 > 0:18:55and through online contact.
0:18:55 > 0:19:00We also know, and tell me if this is not true of Rasheed,
0:19:00 > 0:19:03that they generally have people within their communities
0:19:03 > 0:19:07who are charismatic figures who lead them into this ideology.
0:19:07 > 0:19:11But I suppose my question to you is whether you can pinpoint
0:19:11 > 0:19:17who was responsible for taking Rasheed into this direction?
0:19:17 > 0:19:22Throughout the investigation we've never been able to find out,
0:19:22 > 0:19:26neither ourselves or the police, have been able to find out
0:19:26 > 0:19:27who recruited Rasheed.
0:19:27 > 0:19:29I know certainly it was somebody within the community,
0:19:29 > 0:19:32probably a friend, that's from my own instinct
0:19:32 > 0:19:34and from what I've been able to pick up.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38Like I said, we've never had concrete answers to actually
0:19:38 > 0:19:41who recruited him.
0:19:41 > 0:19:45If you could find that person, would you try to seek them out?
0:19:45 > 0:19:48I would want them absolutely to be brought to justice,
0:19:48 > 0:19:50I really would.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53Because when you talk about blame, I always say it's obviously
0:19:53 > 0:19:55an instinct, you always want when we have these atrocities,
0:19:55 > 0:19:59straightaway we want to blame somebody and point the finger.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02Is not always helpful because then we don't find solutions,
0:20:02 > 0:20:06we're not really putting our heads together and finding
0:20:06 > 0:20:08those proper solutions.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10Ultimately I just blame Isis, I blame whoever recruited
0:20:10 > 0:20:13him, and that...
0:20:14 > 0:20:17No matter how many mistakes or things that weren't done
0:20:17 > 0:20:20throughout the investigation or leading up to it
0:20:20 > 0:20:24when he disappeared, ultimately I just absolutely
0:20:24 > 0:20:26blame Isis.
0:20:26 > 0:20:28They're the ones...
0:20:28 > 0:20:30You know, if they hadn't radicalised him...
0:20:30 > 0:20:34Right, but there's a bigger issue here and it's troubling to talk
0:20:34 > 0:20:36about it but I think we have to.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39We've had a lot of Muslim community leaders in recent days standing up
0:20:39 > 0:20:42in Manchester and London saying this is not done in our name,
0:20:42 > 0:20:45these people are criminals, they are not proper Muslims
0:20:45 > 0:20:48and we will help to bring these people to book.
0:20:48 > 0:20:52But, if you look at surveys, one I've season recently
0:20:52 > 0:20:55from the Gatestone Foundation in January of 2017, a survey
0:20:55 > 0:20:59of Muslim attitudes found of the 3.5 million or so Muslims in the UK,
0:20:59 > 0:21:01a substantial number, they said perhaps up to 100,000
0:21:01 > 0:21:04of them, a substantial, small but substantial number
0:21:04 > 0:21:06expressed sympathy for suicide bomb attacks and the idea
0:21:06 > 0:21:12of Muslim jihad.
0:21:12 > 0:21:20Now, how are we to make sense of that?
0:21:20 > 0:21:25For you as a campaigner against these groups like IS,
0:21:25 > 0:21:28how worried are you by statistics like that, or at least polls that
0:21:28 > 0:21:31point to that kind of evidence?
0:21:31 > 0:21:34I'm very worried.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37I've been saying for a while, I don't think even in the Muslim
0:21:37 > 0:21:40community people realise what a big problem it is.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42I think there is this naivete that has been sensationalised
0:21:42 > 0:21:44in the media and it isn't really.
0:21:44 > 0:21:47It's going on behind closed doors.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50I know certainly since I've been public, obviously because people
0:21:50 > 0:21:53know my story, I've had people approach me, and kind of said
0:21:53 > 0:21:58of a friend or a neighbour or someone that's actually gone
0:21:58 > 0:22:01and they wouldn't have had that conversation had they not
0:22:01 > 0:22:03know my story.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06I know it's going on possibly more than they are believing.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08But going back to blame...
0:22:08 > 0:22:12I think, you know, there's a difference
0:22:12 > 0:22:15between blame and responsibility.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18I think the Muslim community, yes, it's about being more responsible
0:22:18 > 0:22:22and we need to do more, absolutely, but that's everybody,
0:22:22 > 0:22:25everybody has a responsibility to looking at it, be it the mosque
0:22:26 > 0:22:28institutions, schools, colleges, we all have a responsibility
0:22:28 > 0:22:31to start looking at this.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34A final thought about what you see in front of you, particularly
0:22:34 > 0:22:38in a community like Birmingham where some of the tabloid newspapers
0:22:38 > 0:22:42and others have looked at the number of jihadis coming from Birmingham
0:22:42 > 0:22:45and started calling it jihadi central, it's your community.
0:22:45 > 0:22:49I wonder whether you feel when you talk of building bridges
0:22:49 > 0:22:53and the need to build trust within the community
0:22:53 > 0:22:56and between the community and the police and the authorities,
0:22:56 > 0:22:59whether you feel things are going in the right direction
0:22:59 > 0:23:01today or not?
0:23:01 > 0:23:06I would say I think because we've had the Manchester and,
0:23:06 > 0:23:09in a very short time, we had London straight after,
0:23:09 > 0:23:12I think it's only now really people have been that shocked that it's
0:23:12 > 0:23:17starting to move slowly but it's not at the pace I would like it to be.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21I think we need to be moving things a lot more and not become complacent
0:23:21 > 0:23:24because every time something like this happens we go through this
0:23:24 > 0:23:27thing of being angry and blaming, and then it all goes very quiet
0:23:27 > 0:23:30again and we become complacent and when we become complacent we're
0:23:30 > 0:23:32not protecting ourselves, we're not secure.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35Nicola Benyahia, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39Thank you. Thanks a lot.
0:23:58 > 0:23:59Hello there.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02Many of us have had more than our fair share of wet
0:24:02 > 0:24:05and cloudy weather of late, but that certainly hasn't been
0:24:05 > 0:24:06the whole story.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08Monday brought some sunshine for many places.
0:24:08 > 0:24:10That was the scene across the Scottish Islands.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12The sunshine was not shared out equally though.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14Suffolk seeing a lot of cloud.