:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi. Few issues are as
:00:20. > :00:25.controversial as abortion when it comes to addressing women's rights.
:00:26. > :00:29.Campaigners believe that women's right to control their fertility
:00:30. > :00:36.does not extend to abortion on demand. Donald Trump has ended
:00:37. > :00:42.funding for organisations that promote or fund abortions. One such
:00:43. > :00:46.organisation is the IPPF, the International Planned Parenthood
:00:47. > :00:53.Federation. My guest is the outgoing director-general, Tewedros Melesse,
:00:54. > :01:19.and I ask if it is right that they should forfeit government funding.
:01:20. > :01:30.Tewedros Melesse, welcome to HARDtalk Thank you. What is the loss
:01:31. > :01:37.of a few -- US funding means you? One thing is that the US has been
:01:38. > :01:42.the greatest contributor to developmental assistance. Today,
:01:43. > :01:49.Donald Trump is cutting down by 17 or 18% of the funding. When it comes
:01:50. > :01:54.to sexual productive health and rights, there is a link specific.
:01:55. > :01:57.That is that it is that you cannot take our money and with your own
:01:58. > :02:03.money or somebody else's money, you cannot conduct abortion. But what
:02:04. > :02:07.does it mean in practice? Is there anything that you are doing now that
:02:08. > :02:11.you won't be a will to do as a result of the loss of US funding? I
:02:12. > :02:17.think the figures are, your annual budget is about $175 billion, --
:02:18. > :02:24.million. And the American funding is about $35 million. In any of the
:02:25. > :02:28.previous administration, we have not used US funding to talk about
:02:29. > :02:33.abortion, or to perform abortions. Never. Because that was the claws of
:02:34. > :02:39.the US funding. What this administration is telling us is that
:02:40. > :02:43.even if it is not with our money, if it was with somebody else's,
:02:44. > :02:50.whatever the conditions, you cannot refer a client to abortion or
:02:51. > :02:57.advocate for abortion, or do any of that was somebody else's money. But
:02:58. > :03:01.hasn't that been the case in the past with previous presidents, like
:03:02. > :03:05.Ronald Reagan, where he said that US money could not be given to any
:03:06. > :03:11.organisation that promotes provides abortions? That has been the case.
:03:12. > :03:17.But the difference here is that it is extending to seek a virus and had
:03:18. > :03:27.to be AIDS. Haditha defector Zika Zika virus? -- HIV -- how does it
:03:28. > :03:31.affect the Zika virus. If the mother or child is good to be affected, you
:03:32. > :03:36.had to talk about abortion. If the mother once, you have to refer. So
:03:37. > :03:43.it is going to affect your work on HIV, for example? It is not going to
:03:44. > :03:49.affect the current contract, but when it ends. What is that men? It
:03:50. > :03:53.means losing 100 million over the next three years. Although the
:03:54. > :04:04.programme is seen it is saving lives, it is going to be affecting
:04:05. > :04:09.4.8 million pregnancies and 1.7 million abortions. Mary Stokes, the
:04:10. > :04:13.family planning organisation, says as a result of Donald Trump Osmo
:04:14. > :04:20.policy, that there will be 22,000 maternal deaths in his first term.
:04:21. > :04:24.You don't really have any idea of what the outcome would be in terms
:04:25. > :04:30.of figures like that. They are a startling, aren't they? We know it.
:04:31. > :04:43.We have lived it. Can I give you some examples? A girl in Uganda, she
:04:44. > :04:47.was 16. She became pregnant. She was raped, forced. And she could not
:04:48. > :04:53.tell her family. She could not go to a doctor. What happened? She took
:04:54. > :04:58.herbal medicine, and died. Her mother did not know because she did
:04:59. > :05:04.not tell her. And these kinds of things, this mortality in some of
:05:05. > :05:11.the countries, this goes to over 500, 500,000. That is maternal
:05:12. > :05:16.deaths. And that is in countries where abortions are illegal. There
:05:17. > :05:25.are more than those in which it is legal. Backstreet abortions that are
:05:26. > :05:32.done? Is a make-up course. But the fact that you see this is an
:05:33. > :05:40.imperative to see this work done. But do you not think that there is a
:05:41. > :05:45.imperative for life? Donald Trump stood for office with this opinion.
:05:46. > :05:51.He is entitled to that opinion. In fact in January, Mike Pence said
:05:52. > :05:55.life is winning again in America. They have their views. They are
:05:56. > :06:01.entitled to them. A respect their views, but you cannot impose them on
:06:02. > :06:07.somebody else. In a country which says it is a place of democracy and
:06:08. > :06:10.an example of democracy, it cannot impose a different view on somebody
:06:11. > :06:18.else. But you cannot impose your view on a president who has, as part
:06:19. > :06:25.of the decision that he makes, how the tax money is used? I never
:06:26. > :06:31.agreed that this group is pro life. In fact, it is the opposite. Because
:06:32. > :06:37.we care about the life of a woman. We care about the life of a girl.
:06:38. > :06:44.You know, those who are between ten and 16. There are over 34 million
:06:45. > :06:50.who are pulled out of school because of early marriage, sexual abuse, or
:06:51. > :06:55.the informed decision to have a baby. All this is that we care about
:06:56. > :07:01.the likeable woman. But it is not just that, Tewedros Melesse, is it?
:07:02. > :07:09.Because you are encroaching on ideological territory. You have met
:07:10. > :07:13.stiff opposition from the Catholic Church in Peru, for example. I want
:07:14. > :07:19.to give you one example of the criticism. One person looked at
:07:20. > :07:26.programme is supported by groups that you back in Latin America, and
:07:27. > :07:32.he says that these groups are using the funding to lobby politicians and
:07:33. > :07:39.change public opinion. You are lobbying, these are your advocacy
:07:40. > :07:41.groups. You are not just involved in providing healthcare? There is a
:07:42. > :07:48.difference when lobbying and advocacy. What we do is that we
:07:49. > :07:53.work, not as, we call ourselves locally owned, globally connected.
:07:54. > :07:59.In Peru, it is not our office in Europe which is going there. We
:08:00. > :08:04.don't go from London. It is proving is! But they're connected to the
:08:05. > :08:15.IPPF, of which you are the director-general. These are groups
:08:16. > :08:21.that are acting with your blessing. -- it is Peruvians. Yes, but a
:08:22. > :08:27.woman's prerogative, it started in Europe, America, India, Africa,
:08:28. > :08:32.everywhere, to tell me that it is the West that is bringing something
:08:33. > :08:43.else. It is really very... I didn't say the West. No, I meant a foreign
:08:44. > :08:48.ideology. No, I didn't say that. The IPPF has about 170 countries as
:08:49. > :08:55.members and you work in party with the United Nations. You are very
:08:56. > :08:59.bona fide. Yes, but the question is do we fight for the rights are woman
:09:00. > :09:05.to make a choice to be informed of what is the consequence of having
:09:06. > :09:11.unwanted pregnancy? Knowing that she can lose contraception. -- use
:09:12. > :09:16.contraception. Is it time to legislate that a woman, taking into
:09:17. > :09:24.account her personal condition, her social condition, as a free choice?
:09:25. > :09:28.But the people that have a different opinion, you might disagree with
:09:29. > :09:32.them, but the respect their point of USA, OK, Donald Trump, and as they
:09:33. > :09:36.might have taken this decision. We will either find a different way of
:09:37. > :09:39.doing what we want to do, but we respect your decision. The respect
:09:40. > :09:46.people who have a different point of view to you? You can respect, and
:09:47. > :09:53.you can disagree. We need to fight because there is a reason. Are used
:09:54. > :09:59.to lobbying? I didn't say lobbying. Advocacy and showing. What is
:10:00. > :10:02.amazing, Zeinab Badawi, is that in places where abortions is legal, why
:10:03. > :10:18.should this administration said no, it cannot be legal in Ethiopia, or
:10:19. > :10:24.in Peru, or in Chile? Keep your democratic institutions and respect
:10:25. > :10:29.our work. Is your American chapter, then, trying to change the mind of
:10:30. > :10:33.the Donald Trump administration? Try to change, get in the alliance
:10:34. > :10:38.correct, and getting as many people to back them as they can. Because
:10:39. > :10:46.this is a fight. And the fighting, there is no niceties, there, that
:10:47. > :10:49.was respect the laws of the countries. It is not just abortions
:10:50. > :10:54.that you have issues with. You work to promote women's sexual and
:10:55. > :10:58.reproductive rights. You also campaigned against things like early
:10:59. > :11:06.marriage, which is very common in your native Ethiopian. You know, the
:11:07. > :11:13.effects of the general relation. But in trying to charge these problems,
:11:14. > :11:18.you are challenging deep conventions. -- female genital
:11:19. > :11:23.mutilation. Believe me, it is not as hard as it is. Because the
:11:24. > :11:27.communities, they know. For example, in Pakistan, we are working with
:11:28. > :11:30.religious groups. These are the ones who are teaching them what the
:11:31. > :11:37.rights of a woman are. How challenging it is for an early
:11:38. > :11:40.marriage. It doesn't mean there is no opposition. But there are
:11:41. > :11:45.religious leaders from the Christian side also. From the Catholic Church.
:11:46. > :11:54.I visited in a minor street, which is run by nuns. In Pakistan, you
:11:55. > :11:58.mean? No. In Pakistan, the Islamic scholars at teaching how to respect
:11:59. > :12:02.each other and how to respect a woman's life. So your point is you
:12:03. > :12:09.are getting some religious leaders on your site to say, look, early
:12:10. > :12:12.marriage is not good. Two no. It is not that difficult. It is the
:12:13. > :12:17.politicians who are competent in the thing and trying to gain support.
:12:18. > :12:21.They are trained to use all the political. In America, people
:12:22. > :12:27.believe in, you know, their own religion. The American Constitution
:12:28. > :12:31.respect the right of the individual and the woman. That you do meet
:12:32. > :12:36.challenges along the way. In Africa, resistance, a woman seeking
:12:37. > :12:40.contraception is seen as promiscuous and not accepting the will of God
:12:41. > :12:45.issues not married and having as many children as she may be able to
:12:46. > :12:51.have. I prefer to look at these positive side. There are challenges.
:12:52. > :12:58.In southern Africa, and Eastern Africa, the prevalence rate is over
:12:59. > :13:06.35%. If you go to the south, at this gets you 50% or 60%. This was not
:13:07. > :13:14.the case 20 years ago. To achieve the goals, many countries have
:13:15. > :13:18.committed their resources. They have come to the family planning summit.
:13:19. > :13:22.The Ugandan government, the Zimbabwean government, the Ethiopian
:13:23. > :13:26.government, they have committed themselves to making family planning
:13:27. > :13:31.services available. Is it enough? No. Worldwide, there are millions of
:13:32. > :13:36.women who don't have access to contraceptives. Note, but the trip
:13:37. > :13:40.is is there. The commitment is there by the government. There are
:13:41. > :13:45.challenges. There is the issue of accessibility, information,
:13:46. > :13:51.affordability, the training of people, the choices of individuals.
:13:52. > :13:55.So you have a positive attitude? Is your attitude so positive that it
:13:56. > :13:58.takes you to conflict areas were you also champion women's rights, but
:13:59. > :14:02.you find yourself in an uncomfortable position. For example,
:14:03. > :14:05.in Syria, you have been working with the government forces to help women
:14:06. > :14:11.with their sexual reproductive health rights and yet we hear about
:14:12. > :14:17.the rape cases in Syrian government prisons that take place. So are you
:14:18. > :14:22.not collaborating with a government, a regime, that is actually
:14:23. > :14:25.responsible for the degradation and abuse and explication of women? --
:14:26. > :14:34.exploitation. We are not partnering with the
:14:35. > :14:39.government. We are working for those displaced in Jordan, those in
:14:40. > :14:44.Lebanon... In areas of conflict you say you want to help women in
:14:45. > :14:48.crisis, including in conflict, so you are working on government-held
:14:49. > :14:52.areas in Syria. Including those areas controlled by the opposition.
:14:53. > :14:58.You mean so-called Islamic State? Red Cross has agreed with any
:14:59. > :15:04.government what it is doing but operating in a country which is in
:15:05. > :15:09.conflict. Including four women who are raped, to give them counselling
:15:10. > :15:15.and therapy. You mean in areas held by so-called Islamic State? I don't
:15:16. > :15:18.know what our Islamic State controlled areas, but rebel held
:15:19. > :15:23.groups. They might be. They might be. So you have no problem working
:15:24. > :15:26.with so-called Islamic State but we know they have been selling sexual
:15:27. > :15:32.slaves... We are not endorsing the group. What we are saying is those
:15:33. > :15:37.displaced women, girls and young boys, they need education. The
:15:38. > :15:42.torment they go through. How do you operate in practice in such areas?
:15:43. > :15:50.Areas that might be controlled by IS or the Syrian government? Difference
:15:51. > :15:58.between us and other organisations is... These people operate within
:15:59. > :16:04.the context of their country. We are not interested in providing and
:16:05. > :16:08.supporting emergency or disaster situations, but we are forced to act
:16:09. > :16:18.in such a situation. We are providing for over 3 million people,
:16:19. > :16:21.just until 2016. I want to look at another controversial area where the
:16:22. > :16:26.IPPF has worked. You worked with a Chinese Family Planning Association,
:16:27. > :16:30.right through Beijing's one child policy. You yourself in that visited
:16:31. > :16:37.China in 2013 and met the Prime Minister. Did that not make you feel
:16:38. > :16:44.uncomfortable? No. A country that has a one child policy? Restated
:16:45. > :16:51.clearly our position. When we met the Prime Minister of China, we put
:16:52. > :16:57.clearly what we called vision 2020 which put clearly the choice of the
:16:58. > :17:01.individual and the woman is very important. He endorsed that and
:17:02. > :17:07.said, we will move on forward. Immediately after that we set the
:17:08. > :17:13.two child policy. That was changed in 2015. You made a statement
:17:14. > :17:19.welcoming it. Exactly. What we are saying is we are not working with
:17:20. > :17:26.all the governments that we agree with entirely. We make our position
:17:27. > :17:33.is very clear, even the fact that choice, individual rights, they are
:17:34. > :17:37.written on a placard in our clinics. We provide services to immigrant
:17:38. > :17:42.populations. But women in China have no choice. You say you went in 2013,
:17:43. > :17:45.he met the Prime Minister, you said you should have this one child
:17:46. > :17:49.policy, it changed in 2015, that's fine. But you know what your
:17:50. > :17:55.predecessor, the director-general, did and what she said in 2009, in
:17:56. > :17:59.China. This is what she called China's one child policy. It is very
:18:00. > :18:05.conducive to China's development in various aspects, including in the
:18:06. > :18:09.realm of health-care services. That's not a statement which is wise
:18:10. > :18:15.to make, is it, really? Well, the thing is, the Chinese government
:18:16. > :18:19.have come up with that position. We have expressed that we don't agree.
:18:20. > :18:25.But she sounds like she is endorsing it. Well, she is putting rather the
:18:26. > :18:32.contextual situation of the country. You know? But, for us, the choice of
:18:33. > :18:40.the woman getting the appropriate information... Allegation it with
:18:41. > :18:43.them has made a transformation, a change. We have contributed to
:18:44. > :18:49.change. Is it enough? Is it adequate? No, we have lobbied to go.
:18:50. > :18:59.Even in countries where the whole democracy is there... But you are in
:19:00. > :19:03.partnership or co-operating in a way with China, even though you say you
:19:04. > :19:07.don't agree with what they say and what they're doing with their one
:19:08. > :19:14.child policy. This is what a women's group called Women's Writes Without
:19:15. > :19:19.Frontiers said. This is a view will stop while posturing as a champion
:19:20. > :19:22.of choice, the IPPF has in fact been working hand-in-hand with a
:19:23. > :19:27.population control programme in China almost since its inception.
:19:28. > :19:33.Forced abortion is not a choice. We have never... I will never agree
:19:34. > :19:37.with forced abortion. That is very clear. But, do you engage with
:19:38. > :19:44.governments with whom you disagree? Yes, we do. Do you agree with 160
:19:45. > :19:49.countries around the globe? No. There are areas where we don't
:19:50. > :19:55.agree. But we protest and pack and go. I understand it is the local
:19:56. > :20:01.Family Planning Association. And we engage with them. But forced
:20:02. > :20:08.abortions are still operating. In China, forced abortion under the two
:20:09. > :20:12.child policy is still in existence because there is a two child policy
:20:13. > :20:19.now. Well, do you want us to go into exile? No. We fight in the country
:20:20. > :20:24.where we stay. We don't go to exile because we don't agree with the
:20:25. > :20:32.government. We engage with them, we advocate, with -- we engage with
:20:33. > :20:34.health providers and government officials, the national publishing
:20:35. > :20:40.commission. For example, the national population commission...
:20:41. > :20:48.There is a change. What we forget is even in the West... Some of these
:20:49. > :20:55.women are allowed to vote in Western countries. In Sweden where did they
:20:56. > :21:02.start voting? The 70s. Yes. So why don't they engage? So are you
:21:03. > :21:05.engaging with Chinese authorities and saying, look, you have two child
:21:06. > :21:11.policy, but actually that still involves a large degree of forced
:21:12. > :21:15.abortions, so would you stop that? Because there are still going to
:21:16. > :21:21.be... Included extending US State Department said they were tweedy 3
:21:22. > :21:24.million abortions in China -- 23 million abortions in China and we
:21:25. > :21:31.don't know how many of those were forced. So still a huge number going
:21:32. > :21:42.on. You know, the interesting thing is it is interesting, 37 countries
:21:43. > :21:48.where there is abortion is illegal, it is happening. In countries where
:21:49. > :21:52.it is still legal. Even in those where it is legal there are a lot of
:21:53. > :21:56.abortions taking place. Is it the provider's error, is it
:21:57. > :22:01.misinformation? Or is it a constraint imposed on the woman?
:22:02. > :22:06.That has to be investigated and checked out. But because we have a
:22:07. > :22:12.certain attitude about China, we can't just make you know it
:22:13. > :22:17.generalised declaration. Is there any government he would work with?
:22:18. > :22:24.No, except if they impose their view on us and tell us, you can't speak
:22:25. > :22:27.about this. Then that's a problem. You have this passionate commitment
:22:28. > :22:32.to women's sexual reproductive health rights and yet obviously you
:22:33. > :22:39.are man. Why this passion and interest? The first thing is before
:22:40. > :22:49.I became sort of conscious about these issues, I observed my
:22:50. > :22:54.grandmother who just had one daughter and my grandfather's family
:22:55. > :23:01.were really terribly upset. She gets only one child and she gets only a
:23:02. > :23:09.girl? It was like of revolt. She was almost sent to exile over that. And
:23:10. > :23:15.my mother was almost forced to be given for a marriage at 13. I
:23:16. > :23:20.grandmother took away and she said, I've not give to those people. She
:23:21. > :23:31.wanted to get somebody while going to school. And she identified my
:23:32. > :23:36.father a teacher. She gave my mother for a wedding when she was 16. I
:23:37. > :23:41.observed what my mother has lived through, having seven children. When
:23:42. > :23:47.I was in school I was observing girls disappearing suddenly. Because
:23:48. > :23:50.they were pregnant. Because they can't be with their family, they
:23:51. > :23:55.can't be in school until they delivered they would be away. Or
:23:56. > :24:02.they would throw away the baby and comeback. That was a very tough
:24:03. > :24:07.situation. Then I came to Europe and realised what it means and that is
:24:08. > :24:13.the commitment, both personal and the passion. I like literature and
:24:14. > :24:20.poetry, so that makes me passionate and a woman gives life. Tewodros
:24:21. > :24:24.Melesse, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk Thank you.