:00:00. > :00:00.It has just gone past half past two in the morning. That means it is
:00:07. > :00:17.time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab
:00:18. > :00:21.Badawi. What is going on in Poland? In July, the European Union began
:00:22. > :00:27.legal action against the Polish government over proposed reforms,
:00:28. > :00:33.that critics say will politicise the legal system. It has threatened to
:00:34. > :00:41.withdraw funding and suspend voting rights in EU. My guess today is
:00:42. > :00:46.Witold Waszczykowski. It is Poland turning away from liberal democracy?
:00:47. > :01:01.And what does this mean for its people and its place in Europe and
:01:02. > :01:14.the world. -- my guest tiday. -- today.
:01:15. > :01:23.Foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski, and Warsaw, welcome
:01:24. > :01:28.to HARDtalk. Your party won the elections but is now facing
:01:29. > :01:33.criticisms. What has gone wrong? I don't think anything is wrong in
:01:34. > :01:42.Poland. We are running the country for the last 21 months. We have very
:01:43. > :01:48.strong democratic mandates from our people in Poland. And we are trying
:01:49. > :01:53.to modernise the country, develop the country, and of course to stay
:01:54. > :01:56.in the European Union and in Nato and implement all the decisions of
:01:57. > :02:03.these institutions, also here in Poland. After the fall of the Soviet
:02:04. > :02:08.Union, Poland was seen as a bastion of liberal democracy. We had the
:02:09. > :02:12.leader of the Solidarity movement who became president and want the
:02:13. > :02:17.Noble peace prize. The World Bank heaped praise on Poland for making
:02:18. > :02:20.such a successful transition from communism to democracy. And now
:02:21. > :02:27.look, you are getting criticisms from abroad, and also internally,
:02:28. > :02:30.for being too authoritarian. We are still a democratic country, and we
:02:31. > :02:36.want to continue our McReddie process. But we want democracy
:02:37. > :02:45.without objectives. I live long enough, so I got to live in a
:02:46. > :02:54.democracy with objectors. -- continue our democratic process.
:02:55. > :03:01.Some people try to create other democracies, liberal democracies,
:03:02. > :03:05.and that exclude some ideas and concepts. We just want to stay on
:03:06. > :03:10.the democratic course and to be a democratic country without
:03:11. > :03:17.objectives. We continue the transformation of the country. It is
:03:18. > :03:23.developing at a high speed right now, about 4% growth per year. And
:03:24. > :03:26.all democratic institutions are preserved and kept by our
:03:27. > :03:34.institutions and our government and parliament. So those accusations
:03:35. > :03:37.about authoritarianism are wrong. In May, tens of thousands of people
:03:38. > :03:42.protested on the streets of Warsaw at what they say are curbs on
:03:43. > :03:49.democracy. Critics claim that you are introducing reforms in the
:03:50. > :03:52.judiciary which would compromise the independence of the courts, and give
:03:53. > :04:00.too much power to the Justice minister, who is also the prosecutor
:04:01. > :04:03.general. Yes, you are right. Tens of thousands of protesters were
:04:04. > :04:08.protesting on the streets. But for millions of polish people that did
:04:09. > :04:15.not protest, and our party and how we govern, where supported by 30% of
:04:16. > :04:20.the population in Poland. We have a clear mandate to transform and
:04:21. > :04:28.democratise the judicial system, which was left untouched for 28
:04:29. > :04:38.years, says the Communist times. So I think that this is a judgement of
:04:39. > :04:43.the opposition here in Poland, who find it difficult to accept the
:04:44. > :04:47.verdict of the election which happened almost two years ago. --
:04:48. > :04:53.since the Communist. They using this as an excuse just to judge
:04:54. > :04:58.incorrectly our judgement. But can I put it to you that even the
:04:59. > :05:04.President, Andrew Dudayev, a former member of your party, once these
:05:05. > :05:16.proposals amended, because he says giving the Justice Minister the
:05:17. > :05:25.power to dismiss members of the judiciary is not democratic. So even
:05:26. > :05:31.the President is critical. -- Ondrej Duda. We accept that two vetoes, and
:05:32. > :05:36.this discussion goes back to the Parliament. We will get together
:05:37. > :05:40.with parliamentarians to find a solution for this problem. But even
:05:41. > :05:47.the President, as you mentioned, he is critical about the contemporary
:05:48. > :05:49.situation of the judiciary system. We have two continue the
:05:50. > :05:55.transmission of the system. But maybe the better way. Everything is
:05:56. > :06:00.going back to the Parliament to find a better solution for the
:06:01. > :06:05.Parliament, to the judiciary system in Poland. You have angered the
:06:06. > :06:08.European Union. The European Commission has announced legal
:06:09. > :06:13.action against the Polish government. It is citing acute
:06:14. > :06:19.concern about the independence of the Polish courts, which it says
:06:20. > :06:22.will be undermined. So what are you going to do about that? You have
:06:23. > :06:28.been invited for talks with the European Commission. Are you going
:06:29. > :06:33.to discuss and amended the proposals, watered down? What is
:06:34. > :06:43.going to happen? Yes, we engage Win a dialogue with commission. -- we
:06:44. > :06:50.engaged in a dialogue. We are patient, and patiently, we are
:06:51. > :06:56.trying to discuss and inform the commission about the process. The
:06:57. > :06:59.process is going on, as you mentioned, even with some legal
:07:00. > :07:02.action of the Parliament having been stopped by the President. So there
:07:03. > :07:11.is a Cellino time for the commission to interfere in this situation. --
:07:12. > :07:17.so there is absolutely. I don't see any legal excuse for the commission
:07:18. > :07:24.to be engaged right now. We will exchange letters and opinions with
:07:25. > :07:33.people like Mr Tillmans, but I don't see reason for the commission to
:07:34. > :07:40.interfere in reforms and transformation of the system in
:07:41. > :07:43.Poland. -- Tillerman. So the Polish government will have talks with the
:07:44. > :07:52.European Commission, but you say you will not listen to opinions or take
:07:53. > :07:58.advice at all. You will listen, but won't -- you will talk to me but
:07:59. > :08:05.won't listen at all? I think that is wrongly evaluating our situation. --
:08:06. > :08:16.talk to them. We engage in a dialogue. Just a few days go, I sent
:08:17. > :08:20.a letter to Mr Timmermans, and asked for additional clarification on his
:08:21. > :08:23.accusation against Polish reforms. I keep reminding him and others that
:08:24. > :08:30.the process is not finished. It is ongoing. It back to the Parliament.
:08:31. > :08:36.We don't see any reason why it the commission should interfere right
:08:37. > :08:42.now. You also being criticised other reforms that are seen as falling
:08:43. > :08:47.short of European Union values. Last year, there was a controversial law
:08:48. > :08:54.approved to allow Poland to appoint the heads of TV and radio. Poland
:08:55. > :09:01.has been accused of threatening, and European values. As you write an end
:09:02. > :09:07.and the threat as you rightly mentioned, this is public radio and
:09:08. > :09:18.television. This is owned by state owned institutions. -- as you
:09:19. > :09:25.rightly mentioned. The situation is in European Union countries, and we
:09:26. > :09:30.are not touching the private media, or interfering in private TV or
:09:31. > :09:36.radio or newspapers, but those media who belong to the state, of course
:09:37. > :09:39.they are ruled by the state owned institutions. This is a prerogative
:09:40. > :09:42.of the state to nominate the chiefs of these institutions. Just like in
:09:43. > :09:45.other countries, in other member states of the European Union. But
:09:46. > :09:49.they are not attracting the criticisms that you are now. I mean,
:09:50. > :09:53.for example, it is not just the European Union. The Council of
:09:54. > :10:02.Europe, which is not part of Europe, the human rights Commissioner, he is
:10:03. > :10:05.critical of Poland placing is public service media under direct
:10:06. > :10:09.government control will stop so whatever you are doing, it is not
:10:10. > :10:11.quite the same as other European Union countries. -- Humans Rights
:10:12. > :10:18.Commissioner. You go beyond by having this direct government
:10:19. > :10:22.control, Ajer? I can only repeat what I said. I'm not the expert on
:10:23. > :10:27.this. I and the Foreign Minister. So I prefer to engage in the foreign
:10:28. > :10:30.policy of Poland, which is also important for the European Union and
:10:31. > :10:34.the future of the European Union. But I can only repeat what I heard
:10:35. > :10:39.from the experts that we are repeating and copying the solutions
:10:40. > :10:43.which exist everywhere in many countries. -- I am the Foreign
:10:44. > :10:50.Minister. All right. One thing that you do look at is this issue of
:10:51. > :10:54.refugees. In June, the European Commission again launched an EU law
:10:55. > :11:00.infringement procedure against Poland because you are refusing to
:11:01. > :11:07.take in refugees, as part of an EU wide quota system. Why should Poland
:11:08. > :11:14.be exempt from this? We disagree with the commission about the
:11:15. > :11:19.mechanics of so-called relocation, because decisions are taken against
:11:20. > :11:26.the international treaties, the European treaties, against
:11:27. > :11:29.international and European law. It is euphemistic to save relocation,
:11:30. > :11:35.because in fact this is resettlement by force of people who do not want
:11:36. > :11:38.to be resettled to a country like Poland. So we disagree with the
:11:39. > :11:44.commission. The second problem is that we already have a large number
:11:45. > :11:55.of migrants coming from the eastern part of Europe. Only last year, we
:11:56. > :12:00.issued more than 1,200,000 visas for the Ukrainians. The majority chose
:12:01. > :12:03.to stay in Poland. There are also migrants. I don't know why they are
:12:04. > :12:09.coming from the Middle East and North Africa, why they are supposed
:12:10. > :12:17.to be better evaluated, that are taking care of, by the institutions
:12:18. > :12:23.in Europe than migrants coming from, also touched by war, Ukraine. So we
:12:24. > :12:30.are the country which is open for migration, but we disagree with the
:12:31. > :12:35.mechanics of taking decisions about migrants and refugees. So basically,
:12:36. > :12:38.Poland does not want to take any migrants and refugees from the
:12:39. > :12:44.Middle East and Africa, and the criticism there is that because
:12:45. > :12:50.Poland is a very much in this country, with only 0.4% of your
:12:51. > :12:54.population made up of foreigners. Over 90% are Roman Catholic. Cedar
:12:55. > :13:04.one was a migrants. I will give you an example of what the Deputy Prime
:13:05. > :13:14.Minister said last year. -- so not very many migrants. He said people
:13:15. > :13:17.would be blown up. Is that what people don't like about Poland?
:13:18. > :13:23.These ideas exist in the Polish population. More than 75% of polls
:13:24. > :13:27.do not want to accept this relegation by force of the migrants
:13:28. > :13:33.from North Africa and the Middle East. But we try to implement the
:13:34. > :13:38.decisions of the commission from September 2015, and many months ago,
:13:39. > :13:45.we sent our border guards to the camps in Italy and Greece, we sent
:13:46. > :13:49.also security officers. Firstly try to identify some of these people.
:13:50. > :13:53.And of course, the majority of them it is very difficult to identify
:13:54. > :13:59.them. They do not have documents. This is a threat for the security of
:14:00. > :14:04.the country. Of course, nobody from these migrants, these refugees, we
:14:05. > :14:12.prefer to see migrants, had any inclination to emigrate to Poland.
:14:13. > :14:19.So we cannot accept the situation. This progress in the European Union
:14:20. > :14:24.is decided by relocation by force people who do not want be relocated
:14:25. > :14:30.country like Poland. -- relocated to a country. This is a sentiment that
:14:31. > :14:34.underscores what you have just said that make people unhappy about the
:14:35. > :14:42.comments that are coming from official Poland, for example, the
:14:43. > :14:48.chairman of the ruling party, said in April last year why he did want
:14:49. > :14:52.refugees. These people bringing diseases, parasites, bacteria, they
:14:53. > :14:54.don't affect them, but affect us. Is that kind of comment acceptable, to
:14:55. > :15:06.using? Once again, I can only repeat that
:15:07. > :15:09.75% of the Polish population is accepting the policing of the
:15:10. > :15:16.government, not to accept the decision of the EU to resettle by
:15:17. > :15:22.force people from Africa and the Middle East. We don't want to commit
:15:23. > :15:31.suicide as a politician and a government, to go against the public
:15:32. > :15:35.would do that. The accusation as spokesperson for the Catholic
:15:36. > :15:40.bishops, who are urging Poland to receive refugees, says that fears
:15:41. > :15:47.have been fuelled by some political parties. According to the Never
:15:48. > :15:50.Began an organisation which tracks racist attacks in Poland, they say
:15:51. > :15:56.they have increased considerably in the last year and that there is a
:15:57. > :16:03.correlation between hate speech of the political class and those
:16:04. > :16:08.assaults. So, there is a link. I put it to you one more time, are you
:16:09. > :16:13.happy with the state of affairs? No, of course we are not happy. We have
:16:14. > :16:22.discussed this issue and the problem of migrants during the visit last
:16:23. > :16:27.year of Pope Francis. He was visiting us, he gave a speech in
:16:28. > :16:33.Krakow and he mentioned that there are many ways to support, help and
:16:34. > :16:37.assist refugees and migrants. He did not mention that Poland was supposed
:16:38. > :16:45.to accept thousands of people from Syria and the Middle East. He had
:16:46. > :16:51.the chance to visit the Vatican many times and discuss with the hierarchy
:16:52. > :16:57.that situation. We all understand that we at first supposed to start
:16:58. > :17:02.assisting people in the region of Middle East, not Africa. First we
:17:03. > :17:07.engage with the European to help find them peace, a peaceful solution
:17:08. > :17:12.for the war. That has been going on already for seven years in Syria. We
:17:13. > :17:18.are supposed to control the borders of the EU. How are we supposed to
:17:19. > :17:24.help them relocate in Europe? Both countries who have the ability to
:17:25. > :17:28.accept these migrants may accept them, those who want to emigrate to
:17:29. > :17:33.the country are supposed to emigrate. We cannot accept in the
:17:34. > :17:37.21st century, resettlement by force. Once again, we are accepting
:17:38. > :17:47.millions of migrants coming from Ukraine and other areas. Poland is
:17:48. > :17:50.finding these people in Poland. You made that point, thank you. All
:17:51. > :17:57.these things we have been discussing have drawn a lot of criticism from
:17:58. > :18:05.the EU Poland. Poland is that biggest recipient of EU funding. In
:18:06. > :18:10.2015, you received 13.4 billion euros in funding. You cannot afford
:18:11. > :18:17.to fall out with the EU, can you? This funding, these structured funds
:18:18. > :18:26.and subsidies which are part of the agreement between member states,
:18:27. > :18:30.they are derived from the treaties. These funds have nothing to do with
:18:31. > :18:36.the behaviour of the country. It is compensation for the opening of the
:18:37. > :18:43.economic system, for the opening of the market, the investment, the
:18:44. > :18:47.deals with other economies, stronger economies of the Western EU. Is
:18:48. > :18:55.nothing to do with... It is not a reward for us for being liberal or
:18:56. > :18:59.ante liberal. I reject this accusation that we are supposed to
:19:00. > :19:04.give up receiving these funds because we are not behaving
:19:05. > :19:11.correctly, according to some... Who do you think is making... Who is
:19:12. > :19:16.making that accusation? I'll give you an example. The German vice
:19:17. > :19:20.chancellor says, those countries that do not share a German values
:19:21. > :19:25.should not count on German financial help. Germany is the biggest
:19:26. > :19:32.contributor, by far, to the EU's funding. Are you saying that Poland
:19:33. > :19:38.is not that risk of a withdrawal of EU funding? We cannot combine the
:19:39. > :19:46.situation of migrants or European values to the economic operation,
:19:47. > :19:51.because structural funds, this is a reward for the opening of the
:19:52. > :19:56.economy, for the weaker economy, for cooperation with a stronger economy
:19:57. > :20:03.of the Western European economy. It has to do with the population, with
:20:04. > :20:07.the economy, but not with migrants. Is not a reward for accepting
:20:08. > :20:12.migrants. Another thing that is creating some concern, in January of
:20:13. > :20:16.this year, the United States deployed troops on Polish soil for
:20:17. > :20:22.the first time since the fall of the Soviet Union. Germany in particular
:20:23. > :20:31.is concerned about Nato exercises in Poland and the Baltics. And
:20:32. > :20:42.increasing tensions with Russia. Are you not concerned about worsening
:20:43. > :20:51.ties with Moscow? We are concerned already, for at least three years,
:20:52. > :21:00.by the behaviour of Russia. Let me remind you that Russia initiated a
:21:01. > :21:04.rebellion and have acted in regards to Crimea. There are incidences on
:21:05. > :21:10.the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea. Some years ago, Russia initiated
:21:11. > :21:22.aggression against Georgia. So, reacting to this Russian policing,
:21:23. > :21:30.Nato decided to build a special unit to support the security of the
:21:31. > :21:42.Eastern area of Nato. Last year in Warsaw, Nato decided to deploy extra
:21:43. > :21:49.troops. A somewhat tenuously decided, the United States decided
:21:50. > :21:56.to send a whole brigade. Nato are correctly reacting to the acts of
:21:57. > :22:00.Russia. Nato is defending and deterring, but also trying to keep a
:22:01. > :22:11.dialogue with Russia. We support this dialogue. I have to put to
:22:12. > :22:20.you... We sent deputy ministers to Moscow for dialogue. We then sent
:22:21. > :22:27.another deputy to Moscow. We are reacting positively, but we do not
:22:28. > :22:31.have a positive ads from the other side. Finally, are you enjoying
:22:32. > :22:36.being Foreign Minister of Poland at this rather difficult time when you
:22:37. > :22:41.are getting all these criticisms we have been discussing on this
:22:42. > :22:47.HARDtalk? I can repeat what I started in the beginning, which I
:22:48. > :22:51.did not finish is successfully because you prevented me to tell
:22:52. > :22:57.you, for the very first time, we have clearly defined our foreign
:22:58. > :23:03.goals and targets and policy. We have clearly defined our interest.
:23:04. > :23:07.This interest is to implement, using the membership of the EU and of
:23:08. > :23:11.Nato. Some of these interests do not coincide with the others, the other
:23:12. > :23:19.members of this institution. We have a discussion, a live debate with
:23:20. > :23:25.this. This is a decision or an action of the commission, it is only
:23:26. > :23:32.a smokescreen. There are real problems of security, energy, with
:23:33. > :23:42.the Common Market in Europe after Brexit. Decisions about Smart
:23:43. > :23:47.protection, which is suggested by some other Western politicians. We
:23:48. > :23:54.prefer to discuss, and I engage in discussion with my colleagues these
:23:55. > :24:02.issues. But not directly with that conversation. This is an excuse to
:24:03. > :24:07.deprive Poland of our position and to weaken our position in the
:24:08. > :24:11.future, and in the budget of the European Union possibly. I have to
:24:12. > :24:17.phrase the fact that this is not an easy job, but so far, successful.
:24:18. > :24:25.Foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski in Warsaw, thank you
:24:26. > :24:26.very much for coming on HARDtalk. Thank