:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk, I am Stephen Sackur. Venezuela's political and
:00:20. > :00:22.economic crisis is precariously poised. The Maduro regime is
:00:23. > :00:27.determined to rewrite the Constitution to strengthen its grip
:00:28. > :00:31.on power. The opposition is intent on using mass protest to bring the
:00:32. > :00:38.government down. The current stand-off is not sustainable, but
:00:39. > :00:43.which side will prevail? My guest is Isaias Medina. Until last month the
:00:44. > :00:49.Venezuelan diplomat at the UN. Now an anti- Maduro dissident. Can
:00:50. > :01:11.Maduro al asked his enemies? -- at last.
:01:12. > :01:25.Isaias Medina, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you so much. I
:01:26. > :01:30.would like to express my gratitude not only to you personally but to
:01:31. > :01:34.HARDtalk and the BBC for representing a jet of Leith
:01:35. > :01:39.hardships the Venezuelan people are living in right now. -- objectively
:01:40. > :01:42.the hardships. We would do that in detail. Let's start with a simple
:01:43. > :01:46.explanation, if you like. Why did you change sides? For the last
:01:47. > :01:51.couple of years you have been a diplomat at the UN representing
:01:52. > :01:53.Venezuela and the Venezuelan government. And a month ago he
:01:54. > :02:01.decided to jump ship. Why was government. And a month ago he
:02:02. > :02:07.decided to jump ship. Why? To begin with, corruption, drug trafficking,
:02:08. > :02:14.terrorist ties, or the illegal attainment of political prisoners
:02:15. > :02:19.and even less murders of students in the street. And as we have said
:02:20. > :02:24.silence is the biggest partner of impunity and I am a fighter against
:02:25. > :02:31.impunity. And in the last four months it has become undeniable that
:02:32. > :02:39.Maduro's regime is violating human rights, and also has compromised the
:02:40. > :02:43.crimes... And committed crimes against humanity. And all of this
:02:44. > :02:48.has shown - not only the high commission of the United Nations in
:02:49. > :02:51.his last report, but also by the third report that shows torture and
:02:52. > :02:57.so on. Therefore I could not remain silent. We will go into those
:02:58. > :03:02.allegations in some detail. Before we do, I remain a little bit
:03:03. > :03:08.confused. You serve the Venezuelan government from 2015 to 2017. During
:03:09. > :03:12.that period, of course, Mr Maduro was president of your country. We
:03:13. > :03:18.know, and I know from personal experience, that the locking up of
:03:19. > :03:21.political opponents was happening long before you decided to make your
:03:22. > :03:25.stand, so were many of the other things you have made allegations
:03:26. > :03:30.about. So I still want to know what prompted you to jump ship now? Was
:03:31. > :03:34.it simply because eating Maduro's days are numbered and you want to
:03:35. > :03:39.make sure that you are on the right side, as it were? I hope you're
:03:40. > :03:44.right and his days are numbered but what I would like to make clear is
:03:45. > :03:51.that I work for my country. And working for my country in the
:03:52. > :03:54.committee of international law and of course environmental issues that
:03:55. > :03:59.are very important for our planet. I did not see it coming in such a way,
:04:00. > :04:07.such as I believe the international community did not, or was not aware
:04:08. > :04:10.of how far Maduro's regime could take this and in the last month it
:04:11. > :04:16.is evident, that is undeniable. And I would have to say social media has
:04:17. > :04:20.had a great impact on the images of the police aggression and repression
:04:21. > :04:27.against students of the resistance, which are the heroes of changing
:04:28. > :04:32.phone as -- change in Venezuela. And me, I had to not only speak out but
:04:33. > :04:37.stand up for their rights and to make sure that I can bring awareness
:04:38. > :04:43.and raise consciousness to the international community. Right, but
:04:44. > :04:46.the allegations he made, that Maduro has ties with terrorist
:04:47. > :04:50.organisations, with drug traffickers, that his forces and,
:04:51. > :04:55.again, I am quoting you directly, have used rape as a tortured tool,
:04:56. > :05:01.that he has an arsenal of weapons that he believed could end up in the
:05:02. > :05:07.hands of terrorists and drugs warlords - all of these things make
:05:08. > :05:12.me wonder how you could possibly sit there for two years under Maduro's
:05:13. > :05:16.governance of your country, representing Venezuela. Wasn't there
:05:17. > :05:24.just a fundamental hypocrisy that you presumably were happy to live
:05:25. > :05:28.with for two years? Well, it is your opinion. I do respect it. But I do
:05:29. > :05:32.not agree with it. Due to the fact that I was working for my country
:05:33. > :05:38.with the international community. After I have seen all these images,
:05:39. > :05:43.and also I believe that the profound humanitarian crisis in my country
:05:44. > :05:51.led me to try to get help for humanitarian corridor with the order
:05:52. > :05:54.of matter and when I brought it to the awareness of my authorities they
:05:55. > :06:00.just did not care about it because they didn't want to accept the
:06:01. > :06:03.situation in Venezuela. That kickstarted my impression. And then
:06:04. > :06:08.I heard my permanent representative of Venezuela, Raffaele Riva
:06:09. > :06:15.Mirror's, said there was no humanitarian crisis. -- Ramirez.
:06:16. > :06:18.Therefore I had to step out of my work in the international community
:06:19. > :06:22.and start working and investigating what is happening in my country. And
:06:23. > :06:27.the investigations, Abbey has said, and not only me, the international
:06:28. > :06:35.community has been clear, the US sanctions clearly establish that
:06:36. > :06:42.this... That Maduro's regime has established a clear ties to a drug
:06:43. > :06:45.dealing, terrorist ties, state terrorism, corruption, money
:06:46. > :06:49.laundering. And I think this is very clear. We don't want to introduce to
:06:50. > :06:54.many different topics at once. We will get to those allegations and
:06:55. > :06:58.sanctions in a moment. Just sticking with Nicolas Maduro, who is at the
:06:59. > :07:03.centre of this, for just one more question. It is important to
:07:04. > :07:09.remember, is it not, that the man has a democratic mandate? He won an
:07:10. > :07:14.election in late 2013. He has a mandate which lasts until the end of
:07:15. > :07:21.2018. If you are a Democrat, that surely matters. It matters as long
:07:22. > :07:25.as, first of all, it is a real election, and second of all, if you
:07:26. > :07:31.do not delegitimise yourself by attacking your population, your
:07:32. > :07:37.civilians, like he is doing. And third of all, you do not commit
:07:38. > :07:42.unconstitutional acts. Even further, there was another mandate on the
:07:43. > :07:46.16th of July which, by my humble legal opinion, article 70 of the
:07:47. > :07:50.national constitution of Venezuela establishes as binding. And the
:07:51. > :07:56.National Assembly that was elected democratically again in 2015 also
:07:57. > :08:04.has convened seven points I million signatures to be able to revoke
:08:05. > :08:08.Maduro's mandate and repudiate the constituents assembly that he has
:08:09. > :08:13.brought on it and a legally convened -- 7.5 million. Well, of course, he
:08:14. > :08:16.and his government would say got 8 million votes for their constituent
:08:17. > :08:21.assembly which outstrips your 7 million votes, or 6 million votes,
:08:22. > :08:25.for an opposition initiative -- illegally. We can bandy around the
:08:26. > :08:30.figures. The bottom line is the constituent assembly is in place.
:08:31. > :08:35.You, if I may characterise you, as a voice in the opposition, you have to
:08:36. > :08:38.decide what to do now. Is it your belief that the opposition on the
:08:39. > :08:45.streets, the mass protest, the attempt to topple the government by
:08:46. > :08:49.the street, must that continue? Yes, and, first of all, Stephen, I don't
:08:50. > :08:54.think they got 8 million. And that is also clear with the scheme that
:08:55. > :08:59.they have planned. Not even Hugo Chavez in his best moments got 8
:09:00. > :09:04.million votes. And Maduro, for sure, is in his worst popular moment. I
:09:05. > :09:09.don't think he got 10% - 4%, that is 2 million votes. It is a shameful
:09:10. > :09:14.scheme and sham that they are trying to betray -- 12%. Yes, I do believe
:09:15. > :09:18.the resistance should stay in the streets, day by day, fighting for
:09:19. > :09:23.their rights. They have done a great job so far even though it is so sad
:09:24. > :09:27.to see the murder, they have murdered 130- 140 people in four
:09:28. > :09:33.months. Let me stop you there. You put that fact in. It is a very
:09:34. > :09:36.important fact. The circumstances of some of those deaths are still
:09:37. > :09:41.unclear. We know that more than 100 people have died. Many of them
:09:42. > :09:45.appear to have been killed by Maduro's security forces. I wonder,
:09:46. > :09:49.you know, you sit there right now in Miami, I dare say in a fairly
:09:50. > :09:52.comfortable spot, what do you say to the mothers and fathers of those
:09:53. > :09:56.young people who are losing their lives on the streets of Caracas and
:09:57. > :10:02.other Venezuelan towns and cities, when they say to you, is it worth
:10:03. > :10:05.it? Is it worth my son, my daughter, dying for an opposition campaign
:10:06. > :10:09.which, frankly, at the moment, doesn't seem to know quite where it
:10:10. > :10:13.is going? To begin with, I don't believe this is an opposition
:10:14. > :10:17.campaign. This is already the resistance of the people of
:10:18. > :10:21.Venezuela. Citizens, normal citizens, are out there trying to
:10:22. > :10:29.buy for their own future. The only thing I can say to the mothers and
:10:30. > :10:35.students of their lives is my humble solidarity, and of course they are
:10:36. > :10:38.heroes and liberators of the regime that is an international criminal
:10:39. > :10:42.organisation that has hijacked the country. And the only way out is
:10:43. > :10:45.through people like the resistance and these wonderful young students
:10:46. > :10:49.that are fighting in the street to come back to the rule of law stop
:10:50. > :10:54.what you are an international lawyer and you are a diplomat. You sit
:10:55. > :10:58.there in your civilian clothes. But the real question I suppose in
:10:59. > :11:04.Venezuela is whether the people in military uniform are going to join
:11:05. > :11:07.the resistance, as you put it, against the Maduro regime. Some
:11:08. > :11:11.opposition politicians have sent coded messages to the military
:11:12. > :11:16.saying it is time for you to stand up and be counted. Do you now
:11:17. > :11:21.believe the time has come for the Armed Forces, the people inside the
:11:22. > :11:29.armed forces, to rebel against their commanders and their commander in
:11:30. > :11:33.chief? It is their duty to do so. Article three, 33 and 350 of the
:11:34. > :11:40.Venezuelan constitution empowers not only the military but also ordinary
:11:41. > :11:46.citizens when there it is a regime that undermines human rights. We
:11:47. > :11:50.must step up and do whatever it takes. And I think it is time now
:11:51. > :11:56.for the military to stand up. We saw last Sunday how a fraction of also
:11:57. > :12:05.military is, former military is, have taken up arms -- and this will
:12:06. > :12:09.raise the bar of this disproportionate use of weapons by
:12:10. > :12:12.Maduro. You are advocating insurrection, New Guinea and
:12:13. > :12:19.treason. A month ago he represented the Venezuelan government. It is
:12:20. > :12:23.extraordinary. Once again, I represent my country, it is called
:12:24. > :12:29.Venezuela. And Savile rebellion is in Article 350. I am calling for
:12:30. > :12:34.that. And you know what the consequence will be - terrible blood
:12:35. > :12:41.shed across your country. We also know at substantial chunk of the
:12:42. > :12:44.country, including those who have access to weaponry, are passionately
:12:45. > :12:47.and deeply committed to defending the socialist revolution and the
:12:48. > :12:52.Maduro government. So your position seems to me one which is only going
:12:53. > :12:58.to lead to one thing, which is a bloody civil war. Well, there has
:12:59. > :13:04.been a bloody situation in Venezuela for 18 years. As you are aware,
:13:05. > :13:09.350,000 people have died in this period for criminal and violent
:13:10. > :13:13.crimes. 30,000 every year. So it has already begun. It is a matter of how
:13:14. > :13:17.to stop his criminal organisation that has hijacked the country. I
:13:18. > :13:22.don't think there is a way out through dialogue. They just stall
:13:23. > :13:27.and delay these dialogues because they have nowhere to run. It is not
:13:28. > :13:32.an ordinary situation, Stephen. And we must be clear about that. This is
:13:33. > :13:36.not an ordinary government or ideology. It is a criminal
:13:37. > :13:39.organisation that has terrorist ties and drug trafficking tyres. So this
:13:40. > :13:43.makes a huge difference on what their objectives and their agenda
:13:44. > :13:49.is. You say there is no more room for dialogue, assuming therefore
:13:50. > :13:53.that you think that direct physical confrontation is the only inevitable
:13:54. > :13:59.outcome. I just wonder whether you pause for a moment to think about
:14:00. > :14:06.the 85% of your countrymen and women who are currently living in poverty
:14:07. > :14:09.- children whose malnutrition rates are soaring across Venezuela.
:14:10. > :14:14.Maternal mortality rates going through the roof. Children, we see
:14:15. > :14:19.the terrible images of them scavenging through the food in the
:14:20. > :14:21.garbage cans. Do you really think that violent confrontation is going
:14:22. > :14:28.to help them deal with their day-to-day economic crisis? I'm
:14:29. > :14:32.sorry to say that you are not the right, but that Nicolas Maduro's
:14:33. > :14:35.regime has been killing the people, not only from hunger, lack of
:14:36. > :14:39.medicine and treatment, but also in the street. And I wish there was
:14:40. > :14:43.another way out. That is why I called the international community
:14:44. > :14:51.for an international humanitarian intervention. And I think...
:14:52. > :14:58.Honestly, I think about this every day, offer an alternative. But they
:14:59. > :15:01.don't seem to be able to want to offer real negotiation. That is why
:15:02. > :15:06.I believe Maduro should capitulate, and he should be accountable to the
:15:07. > :15:11.International Criminal Court. Yes, but we have to deal in the real
:15:12. > :15:14.world. I mean, there is no sign he is going to capitulate. The
:15:15. > :15:17.commander of his armed forces has also declared his absolute loyalty
:15:18. > :15:22.to the stability of the current government. So capitulation is not
:15:23. > :15:26.on the agenda. You have talked about your desire to see an immediate
:15:27. > :15:33.international humanitarian intervention. I wonder what you mean
:15:34. > :15:38.by that? Do you mean you want to see people come into Venezuela from
:15:39. > :15:45.outside with arms? Armed Forces? Well, so far what we have seen is
:15:46. > :15:49.students with sticks and stones fighting disproportionate use of
:15:50. > :15:54.force by the Maduro's regime. So they are shooting and killing
:15:55. > :16:01.demonstrators, and I don't think the effect has been great, by the
:16:02. > :16:05.international media. At but in reality, as you said, there is no
:16:06. > :16:09.way to defeat all its against stones. It is a textbook David
:16:10. > :16:16.against Goliath. I believe we are going to win, if at the end of the
:16:17. > :16:19.day, as you have seen. Now it is going to be another confrontation.
:16:20. > :16:23.Is there another way out? I would like to hear what you think about
:16:24. > :16:26.it, because I don't see it. Well, I am more interested about what you
:16:27. > :16:29.think, particularly about this notion of intervention. We have seen
:16:30. > :16:33.in recent days Donald Trump's administration slapped new sanctions
:16:34. > :16:39.on Maduro personally, and some of his key associates. They say they
:16:40. > :16:42.are going to do more. But what they haven't done yet is put direct
:16:43. > :16:46.sanctions on Venezuela's oil exports. The EU as well have come up
:16:47. > :16:49.with some harsh words but it hasn't actually imposed serious sanctions
:16:50. > :16:53.on Maduro's regime yet. So are you satisfied with what you are seeing?
:16:54. > :16:57.And we can talk about Latin America too. Are you satisfied with what you
:16:58. > :17:01.are seeing from the international community, when it comes to a
:17:02. > :17:07.response to what is happening inside your country? I am grateful for the
:17:08. > :17:15.response and sanctions from the US and the EU. I believe also
:17:16. > :17:18.yesterday's Lima declaration was incredibly effective, and also other
:17:19. > :17:26.countries in other regions should manifest and express the same
:17:27. > :17:30.support to the illegal National Assembly that was elect did in 2015.
:17:31. > :17:40.But I will not be satisfied until this regime stops pressing and
:17:41. > :17:45.killing and leaves Venezuelans to choose their own government. But
:17:46. > :17:48.when you appealed to the international community, you allow
:17:49. > :17:57.Maduro to use this word which was used before him, and now used by
:17:58. > :18:01.Maduro, imperialism. That is what the Chavismo regime is saying today.
:18:02. > :18:04.They say that yet again the United States is undertaking plotting and
:18:05. > :18:09.conspiracy to bring down the socialist revolution. And your
:18:10. > :18:18.message plays into their hands. This is like gaslight psychological
:18:19. > :18:24.policy on Maduro. He is trying to divert the reality. He is the only
:18:25. > :18:29.dictator, totalitarian emperor, that is ruling by oppressing his own
:18:30. > :18:33.people. There is no imperialism in the international community trying
:18:34. > :18:38.to help 30 million Venezuelans hijacked I International criminal
:18:39. > :18:41.organisation. What do you make of those leftist politicians, in
:18:42. > :18:45.Europe, for example, and we have one in the UK, the Leader of the
:18:46. > :18:49.Opposition Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, who have long been friends,
:18:50. > :18:53.sympathises with, the socialist revolution in Venezuela, and who are
:18:54. > :18:59.these days very careful in their words about the Venezuela crisis?
:19:00. > :19:03.For example, the other day Mr Corbyn wouldn't name Mr Maduro directly. He
:19:04. > :19:07.said I condemn all the violence from all sides. He says we have to
:19:08. > :19:11.recognise that there have been effective and serious attempt at
:19:12. > :19:15.reducing poverty and Venezuela. You know, is that satisfactory, as far
:19:16. > :19:20.as you are concerned, from a leading western politician in response to
:19:21. > :19:24.the crisis? Not at all, and it is impossible to defend the
:19:25. > :19:29.indefensible. When you can see clearly the violation of human
:19:30. > :19:33.rights and the crimes against humanity that have been committed in
:19:34. > :19:38.the last four months, it is impossible to defend, quote unquote
:19:39. > :19:48.socialist utopia. It is actually a dystopia. It is unsustainable. You
:19:49. > :19:54.can see the inflation. Maduro has actually done something incredible.
:19:55. > :19:59.He has converted Venezuela to be the first country in corruption,
:20:00. > :20:06.inflation, violence, and this is completely unsustainable, and it is
:20:07. > :20:10.unacceptable. So I think that the your problem is the more you list
:20:11. > :20:14.the failings in the tragedy of Venezuela today, the more I am left
:20:15. > :20:18.scratching my head as to why it is that... And remember, I was in
:20:19. > :20:25.Venezuela relatively recently, why it is that there is still a hard
:20:26. > :20:28.core of passionate support for Chavismo, for the socialist
:20:29. > :20:32.revolution. I am not saying this is direct port, personal support for Mr
:20:33. > :20:37.Maduro, but there is clearly, amongst a substantial chunk of the
:20:38. > :20:41.Venezuelan population, our desire to see that the socialist revolution is
:20:42. > :20:48.not dismantled. Are you prepared to accept that? No, what I do
:20:49. > :20:52.understand is there is that chunk that you are talking about, ten,
:20:53. > :20:58.12%, that have been controlled by the regime, giving them certain
:20:59. > :21:01.privileges that are very difficult and within the hardships it is
:21:02. > :21:08.understandable. But the population are looking for a way out. I believe
:21:09. > :21:12.also they want to feel represented. So this is a colossal... I don't
:21:13. > :21:16.think it is just that. It is also a deep distrust of some of the
:21:17. > :21:19.opposition leaders and political parties, are feeling that first of
:21:20. > :21:22.all they are deeply divided and don't have a coherent vision for
:21:23. > :21:25.Venezuela's future, but also they are driven by their own economic
:21:26. > :21:32.interests, that they are to a certain extent, if I can use the
:21:33. > :21:38.word, the Venezuelan oligarchs. And that is a real fear that a lot of
:21:39. > :21:47.poorer Venezuelans have. That is why this change will be so important for
:21:48. > :21:50.Venezuela's Reconstruction and reconciliation, to allow pluralism
:21:51. > :21:54.into the political equation. And this is a call for the opposition to
:21:55. > :21:58.open up and make it more accessible. For all the population to be
:21:59. > :22:03.involved in the decision-making in politics. Like, for example, the
:22:04. > :22:08.mandate of 16 July was very clear. So right now what we need to see
:22:09. > :22:12.from the National Assembly, where the opposition political leaders are
:22:13. > :22:16.still sitting back, is to make the right choices. Right now, they must
:22:17. > :22:20.appoint their government. And this is why the international community
:22:21. > :22:27.must recognise them as a legal entity. We have to end soon, but you
:22:28. > :22:31.are an interesting figure because you have always made a point of
:22:32. > :22:35.saying you don't belong to a party. We have spoken to the leader of one
:22:36. > :22:41.of the main opposition parties. I met the family of Leopoldo Lopez,
:22:42. > :22:43.who is back in prison, another significant Leader of the Opposition
:22:44. > :22:50.movement. These are established party people, but who do you think
:22:51. > :22:53.can be the Venezuelan who can somehow build bridges between the
:22:54. > :22:56.polarised elements within your society, and stop your country
:22:57. > :23:01.falling into conflict and possibly civil war? Who is it? Well, I think
:23:02. > :23:06.it is every Venezuelan. It is not only one person. We should not try
:23:07. > :23:11.to personalise this, but try to listen to the voices in the streets.
:23:12. > :23:15.They are asking Maduro to leave his post, first thing, and second, they
:23:16. > :23:20.are asking the opposition not to negotiate. Not to go to elections,
:23:21. > :23:22.because they are fraudulent, and it would be recognising this
:23:23. > :23:29.unconstitutional constituent assembly, and they must listen to
:23:30. > :23:33.the people in the street. This is the real Venezuela. Yes, but the
:23:34. > :23:37.people need leadership. Where the leadership? Well, leadership you can
:23:38. > :23:42.find in very different places, but for certain, the real leadership is
:23:43. > :23:46.in the streets and that is... Evidence has shown on why this is
:23:47. > :23:51.the change right now. And are you going to leave Miami and go back to
:23:52. > :23:55.fight for your country's future inside Venezuela? I am ready to do
:23:56. > :23:59.whatever it takes. That is why I have not applied for political
:24:00. > :24:03.asylum, so that I can be free to travel to Venezuela, or wherever my
:24:04. > :24:10.country needs me. So I am ready to fight. Isaias Medina, I thank you
:24:11. > :24:35.very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you, Stephen.
:24:36. > :24:40.Much of the country was fine and dry, with some good,
:24:41. > :24:44.But it was atrocious across the south-east,
:24:45. > :24:48.cold and wet, like this Weather Watcher behind me depicts