:00:00. > :00:08.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:09. > :00:13.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:14. > :00:17.For more than two decades, the ANC has been South Africa's
:00:18. > :00:22.impregnable political structure, but now cracks are appearing.
:00:23. > :00:26.At least 30 ANC MPs defied the party whip and supported a no confidence
:00:27. > :00:28.motion against party leader and national President,
:00:29. > :00:40.My guest today is Pravin Gordhan, the man
:00:41. > :00:43.President Zuma sacked as finance minister in controversial
:00:44. > :01:17.Does the ANC need to be broken up to enable South Africa to thrive?
:01:18. > :01:27.Pravin Gordhan in Johannesburg, welcome to HARDtalk thank you, thank
:01:28. > :01:34.you for having me. Long distance as it might be. Let's consider what is
:01:35. > :01:37.happening in your country today and particularly the fallout from the
:01:38. > :01:43.motion of no-confidence against President Jacob Zuma, which didn't
:01:44. > :01:50.succeed, but got 177 votes, which was significant. It clearly included
:01:51. > :01:59.a substantial number of ANC MPs. How toxic is the atmosphere inside the
:02:00. > :02:07.ANC as a result of that vote? There certainly is an active debate and
:02:08. > :02:12.discussion of ideas. To answer questions that you have raised in
:02:13. > :02:18.your introduction, the ANC is still absolutely crucial to South Africa's
:02:19. > :02:24.future, the values, programmes and policies of the ANC are extremely
:02:25. > :02:28.relevant now and possibly for the next decade or two, they are
:02:29. > :02:32.policies that can still banned this nation together and increase
:02:33. > :02:37.prospects for South Africa. However, to be frank, we have gone through a
:02:38. > :02:43.period of disclosures which has demonstrated to South Africans and
:02:44. > :02:47.the world that the state machinery and resources are being used in the
:02:48. > :02:52.wrong kind of way. It is important to distinguish between the ANC as an
:02:53. > :02:57.organisation and its values and programmes on the other hand, and
:02:58. > :03:01.individuals who currently, in the view of many, don't perform their
:03:02. > :03:05.responsibilities in accordance with those values. You talk about the
:03:06. > :03:14.need to be frank. In that spirit, the chief whip of the ANC said that
:03:15. > :03:21.there should be a disciplinary process for all those MPs who voted
:03:22. > :03:26.for the motion of no confidence in Jacob Zuma. Do you agree? He is
:03:27. > :03:30.reported as having said that there should have been a witch-hunt. This
:03:31. > :03:37.is a moment where we need to step back a bit as an organisation and
:03:38. > :03:43.reflect on what are the reasons for ending up where we are today. And in
:03:44. > :03:47.a self-critical way, as many documents of the ANC, formally
:03:48. > :03:52.presented at the meetings indicate, they are things to reflect on.
:03:53. > :03:57.Amongst others, why do we have so much corruption and what do we do
:03:58. > :04:05.about it? Ways this corruption about one family and a broader syndicate,
:04:06. > :04:15.and what does it have in terms of impacts on the state, and there are
:04:16. > :04:18.billions of dollars of public money, they are putting that money into
:04:19. > :04:24.different accounts in different parts of the world? And finally, how
:04:25. > :04:31.do we unite the organisation in line with Nelson Mandela and his values?
:04:32. > :04:33.I want to talk about those issues of governance in some detail, but
:04:34. > :04:38.sticking with what is happening inside the ANC for a bit longer. It
:04:39. > :04:45.was a secret ballot, nobody needed to tell anyone else how they voted
:04:46. > :04:53.in that vote. But how did you vote? As we said, it was a secret ballot.
:04:54. > :04:58.Like myself and a number of others who said our conscience would guide
:04:59. > :05:02.us, and in addition, we have a seminal judgement from the
:05:03. > :05:06.constitutional court and an equally seminal statement from the Speaker
:05:07. > :05:10.of our parliament, which indicates that the oath we have taken in the
:05:11. > :05:13.Parliament is an oath to the Republic and the Constitution.
:05:14. > :05:18.Finally, our duty lies with the people of South Africa. I think I am
:05:19. > :05:23.quite experienced at Reading between the lines and I think I understand
:05:24. > :05:28.what you are saying. I note that on July 18, you clearly said, it is
:05:29. > :05:33.time for Jacob Zuma to move aside. So we can assume you voted for the
:05:34. > :05:38.motion of no confidence, I think. How do you feel when the police
:05:39. > :05:46.Minister has talked about the need for a lie detector test to sort out
:05:47. > :05:51.who stayed loyal and who was disloyal to Jacob Zuma? How would
:05:52. > :05:56.you react to being faced with a lie detector test? In the first
:05:57. > :06:00.instance, I think the police Minister is misdirecting his energy.
:06:01. > :06:05.He should take the lie detector equipment to the area where the
:06:06. > :06:12.raptors reside and others visit and ask them to declare to the South
:06:13. > :06:16.African public in the world how much money they are taking from the
:06:17. > :06:23.public and if we can have it back -- Guptas. The second issue is that the
:06:24. > :06:27.alliance members have raised this issue today, and the South African
:06:28. > :06:35.Communist Party, the issue is, why is attention given to a certain
:06:36. > :06:39.number of ANC employees who may have crossed the line, so to speak, but
:06:40. > :06:46.there are a range of corrupt activities that are not being given
:06:47. > :06:50.the same attention. You keep tempting me to get directly onto the
:06:51. > :06:54.issue of corruption, you have already introduced the Guptas to
:06:55. > :07:06.this, the successful business family at the centre... There is Belle
:07:07. > :07:13.Pottinger as well. You expressed the thought that the ANC remains crucial
:07:14. > :07:15.to South Africa's future and you have expressed your loyalty.
:07:16. > :07:21.Discussing the atmosphere inside the party today. Reading social media
:07:22. > :07:25.and other reports, I know that you have faced threats since the vote of
:07:26. > :07:36.no-confidence. One person in particular said, quoting not mean I
:07:37. > :07:43.saw on social media, said that you should be necklaced, a term used
:07:44. > :07:51.during the apartheid. Are you frightened right now about the sort
:07:52. > :07:59.of anger and toxic atmosphere inside your party, some directed at you
:08:00. > :08:06.personally? No, there is reason to be concerned, there is no doubt
:08:07. > :08:14.about that. That kind of remarks, those remarks about necklacing, that
:08:15. > :08:20.is totally unwarranted. It does not represent our country at this point
:08:21. > :08:24.in time. But remember that we have a large number of people who survived
:08:25. > :08:28.the apartheid period, they have survived different types of torture
:08:29. > :08:34.and maltreatment at the hands of the apartheid regime. They, like myself,
:08:35. > :08:43.are not about to give up on the ANC and the values we hold the. Jacob
:08:44. > :08:48.Zuma says it is a matter of loyalty -- we hold dear. During the
:08:49. > :08:54.apartheid, many people wanted to destroy the ANC, apartheid
:08:55. > :08:58.representatives themselves included. Jacob Zuma is saying to the South
:08:59. > :09:03.African public, if you move against me, you're not just damaging me but
:09:04. > :09:09.the entire party, letting our enemies and opponents win. How do
:09:10. > :09:13.you respond? Very simply. There is a lot of reflecting that the president
:09:14. > :09:21.needs to do about what and whom is causing damage to the reputation of
:09:22. > :09:26.the ANC, resulting in the increasing lack of trust and the deficit of
:09:27. > :09:29.trust that there is between South African citizens and our
:09:30. > :09:34.organisation. Our aim is to increase the level of trust to sustain the
:09:35. > :09:38.support for the South African national congress, and ensure they
:09:39. > :09:45.are in a position to win the election in 2019. Others might have
:09:46. > :09:49.a short-term objective of participating in the looting of the
:09:50. > :09:52.state for their personal benefit. Let's not get ahead of ourselves
:09:53. > :09:58.talking about 2019 elections. Talking about the ANC choice as to
:09:59. > :10:05.who should lead the party after Jacob Zuma. His term runs out at the
:10:06. > :10:18.end of the year. It seems he wants his ex-wife to take over. The other
:10:19. > :10:29.leading candidate who has stood has made his intentions known. Who are
:10:30. > :10:39.you backing? The ANC will discuss it in September. The candidate is
:10:40. > :10:46.qualified to lead a better future for all South Africans. Looking at
:10:47. > :10:49.his record, he has been woven into the governing elite of business and
:10:50. > :10:55.politics since the liberation struggle. Records suggest that he
:10:56. > :11:00.has remained loyal to Jacob Zuma in a series of no-confidence votes and
:11:01. > :11:11.the dispute about how Jacob Zuma spend money on his estate. Far from
:11:12. > :11:27.being a reformer, this is a man who has been deeply embedded in the old
:11:28. > :11:32.ANC elite. That is one view. Ramaphosa is one contestant, there
:11:33. > :11:37.will be other people competing for that as well. There will be a
:11:38. > :11:46.crossroads at some point. He will be able to put his credentials before
:11:47. > :11:50.you. Like many others, he has strong credentials. The creator of the
:11:51. > :11:59.national union of Mineworkers. A key negotiator who gave us the basis for
:12:00. > :12:04.the first Democratic elections. The 1996 final constitution in South
:12:05. > :12:12.Africa as well. All of us have pluses and minuses. I think for a
:12:13. > :12:16.significant number of people, perhaps some of the minuses that you
:12:17. > :12:23.point out... It is not about what you have done or not done, the key
:12:24. > :12:27.is who has a singular adherence to the principles of the ANC and is
:12:28. > :12:32.willing to take South Africa out of the mess it finds itself in,
:12:33. > :12:38.particularly economically as I pointed out. We need growth well
:12:39. > :12:46.above the 0.5, 1% growth. We need to create jobs on a massive scale, we
:12:47. > :12:52.need investment on a massive scale. We require not just a visionary
:12:53. > :12:54.leadership, but an action orientated leadership that will put South
:12:55. > :13:01.Africa on a different trajectory. You know there is a powerful set of
:13:02. > :13:06.voices who may be coalescing around the economic freedom fighters who
:13:07. > :13:09.say that the problem with people like Ramaphosa, and possibly
:13:10. > :13:13.yourself as well, is that you don't have a radical vision. In the end,
:13:14. > :13:18.you are still in the pockets of the old elite. They have said that
:13:19. > :13:22.Ramaphosa should not call himself a black South African, they have said
:13:23. > :13:28.he should call himself nonwhite as he is still in the pocket of the old
:13:29. > :13:37.elite. The issue is freedom of speech and freedom of polemic in
:13:38. > :13:40.this case. The polemic... But political contestant for power, if
:13:41. > :13:45.we don't have the right leadership and don't implement the policies we
:13:46. > :13:49.have, then, like any other Democratic situation, we will lose
:13:50. > :13:53.the elections in 2019. One more political question, and then I will
:13:54. > :13:59.get onto allegations of corruption and governance. Will you continue
:14:00. > :14:06.your campaign to see Jacob Zuma removed from office after 2017? He
:14:07. > :14:11.will no longer be the leader of ANC but he will still be the president
:14:12. > :14:14.of the nation. He could and it seems will be determined to see his office
:14:15. > :14:21.through to the end of 2018. Will you be advocating his removal?
:14:22. > :14:30.That will be the responsibility of the new leadership and lack the... I
:14:31. > :14:35.am just asking you... I might not even be part of that. I have not
:14:36. > :14:42.been campaigning. To a large extent, I have been a victim of very
:14:43. > :14:47.ill-advised decisions made in respect of governance in this
:14:48. > :14:54.country. Downgrades, lack of confidence, drop in investment. What
:14:55. > :14:59.we want to see, as I said repeatedly, is to turn that
:15:00. > :15:04.narrative and situation around so we have a different trajectory into the
:15:05. > :15:09.future. The leadership of the AMC will be elected and they will be
:15:10. > :15:13.decide what the answer is. Clearly, you will not give me a direct
:15:14. > :15:23.answer. Let's talk about you and these issues. You made a point of
:15:24. > :15:30.mentioning the Guptas and state capture, the degree to which they
:15:31. > :15:32.have exercised power at the heart of government. Allegations they
:15:33. > :15:38.consistently have denied but you believe them to be true. Do you
:15:39. > :15:42.believe you are fired by Jacob Zuma, in particularly the second firing
:15:43. > :15:50.from the Finance Ministry, because of influence exercised by business
:15:51. > :15:58.interests who wanted you out? In the first term, I left at the end of the
:15:59. > :16:04.five-year term. In the second instance I did get fired and there
:16:05. > :16:10.is a strong belief there is a link between the kind of interests and
:16:11. > :16:16.objectives this particular family have in South Africa, including
:16:17. > :16:22.making sure that they interfere with the banking system and the rights in
:16:23. > :16:28.respect of having clients or not having clients interfere with the
:16:29. > :16:32.decision possibly to be made which would have enabled them to buy a
:16:33. > :16:38.bank and carry on with whatever they want to carry on with. The kind of
:16:39. > :16:44.activities going on in the state and enterprises, institutions, all of
:16:45. > :16:53.which are coming to the surface... This is important. You heard in a
:16:54. > :17:00.recent interview, one of the Guptas Guptas rejecting the allegations of
:17:01. > :17:07.leaked e-mails. Saying they were not authentic and denying key dramatic
:17:08. > :17:13.allegations about her example $40 million allegedly offered to the
:17:14. > :17:18.deputy finance minister if he would take charge of the ministry on the
:17:19. > :17:28.understanding he would do the Guptas Guptas bidding. There is a
:17:29. > :17:33.fundamental? . Should they believe these allegations going to the top
:17:34. > :17:41.of government? Is there any reason why we should believe anything that
:17:42. > :17:45.the Guptas have to say. I cannot find the U in categorical terms that
:17:46. > :17:53.the Deputy Minister of South Africa was offered 600 million g is a bribe
:17:54. > :17:58.in order to take position as the Finance Minister which he rejected
:17:59. > :18:04.and, as a consequence, he was dismissed, as I was towards the end
:18:05. > :18:08.of March this year. Secondly, a number of others implicated and
:18:09. > :18:13.mentioned in the e-mails you refer to, have not contested the truth and
:18:14. > :18:18.in fact have provided explanations either to vindicate themselves at
:18:19. > :18:27.all to extricate themselves from the allegations of... Guptas are you
:18:28. > :18:35.ready to see the Guptas in court because they denied the allegations?
:18:36. > :18:39.It is not my job. It is the job of the law enforcement entities to
:18:40. > :18:44.intervene where the risk corruption in relation to the private and
:18:45. > :18:48.public sector in the rations and use of these e-mails and other
:18:49. > :18:53.information in the public domain to enforce the laws of this country to
:18:54. > :18:56.ensure that anybody who has a business here should be lower by
:18:57. > :19:04.adding and a question that should concern at the British government is
:19:05. > :19:10.Bell Pottinger, creating racial tensions in this country in the
:19:11. > :19:17.course of serving the financial interests of this particular family.
:19:18. > :19:22.... Hang on. You are throwing in lots of things at once. I will come
:19:23. > :19:29.back to Bell Pottinger in a second. One basic question about the AMC and
:19:30. > :19:34.you being a long-time member and your loyalty to it. -- ANC. But what
:19:35. > :19:42.is more important getting to the truth of these allegations or the
:19:43. > :19:46.health of the a and C because if the investigation ultimately means
:19:47. > :19:51.people at the top of the ANC get damage, there may be a choice. Which
:19:52. > :19:58.is your priority- getting to the truth that all protecting the AMC?
:19:59. > :20:05.Getting to the truth will protect the am at sea. The court in South
:20:06. > :20:14.Africa has said that a commission of enquiry it needs to be appointed...
:20:15. > :20:21.We haven't not got... ANC there is agreement in the ANC that a
:20:22. > :20:25.commission of that nature headed by a respected judge and needs to be
:20:26. > :20:32.put in place so these allegations can be tested and evidence provided
:20:33. > :20:37.the only question is when it will be done. If the allegations are proven
:20:38. > :20:45.to be correct and we can extricate these cancer, the ANC will be alive
:20:46. > :20:52.and well with the aspirations of South African citizens and ensure
:20:53. > :21:01.our in coming and society moves in the right direction. Bell Pottinger,
:21:02. > :21:09.a big PR firm based in London working with the Guptas Guptas. One
:21:10. > :21:16.thing it seems they decided would be helpful to the Guptas east to
:21:17. > :21:23.undertake these narrative that says that according to the Guptas problem
:21:24. > :21:28.is still the dominant of what is called white monopoly capital and to
:21:29. > :21:33.a certain extent they have a point because if one looks at the
:21:34. > :21:38.inequality in South Africa today, who really holds the wealth?
:21:39. > :21:45.Disproportionately it is still the white people. Who owns the land?
:21:46. > :21:53.Disproportionately the white people. People in government has signally
:21:54. > :21:57.failed to address this. Not quite true. Remember what we have in South
:21:58. > :22:01.Africa and something we constantly need to remind ourselves is a
:22:02. > :22:09.constitutional arrangement that came out the political settlement. Not
:22:10. > :22:14.one side conquered the other and was able to reshape both the politics
:22:15. > :22:20.and the economy. Secondly you might want to remember that, as part of
:22:21. > :22:26.ensuring stability, Mr Mandela and his colleagues in the 1990s leading
:22:27. > :22:31.to the 1994 election they did a couple of things- they agreed to a
:22:32. > :22:34.government of national unity, secondly they agreed that a Finance
:22:35. > :22:39.Minister of the previous apartheid leader would continue for a short
:22:40. > :22:43.while in order to reassure the markets that nothing untoward would
:22:44. > :22:48.happen so stabilising the situation in South Africa economically was
:22:49. > :22:53.quite important for the politics to take root as well. Thirdly, any
:22:54. > :23:03.amount of translation has taken place. There is a lot of hard work
:23:04. > :23:08.to do. A lot of reconstructing to do but what is happening currently in
:23:09. > :23:11.terms of the pilfering of state finances and the undermining of
:23:12. > :23:18.state institutions is delaying that project. We have to end like this,
:23:19. > :23:23.you talk about reconstructing and reforming South Africa. It may be
:23:24. > :23:28.the best way to do this is that people like you to leave the ANC and
:23:29. > :23:37.join a different political movement. Will you ever leave the ANC? After
:23:38. > :23:41.40 years of contribution to the struggle here in South Africa and to
:23:42. > :23:47.the African National Congress, not at this stage and remember that the
:23:48. > :23:53.ANC is an organisation and is part of our history is very close to the
:23:54. > :23:56.heart of the majority of South Africans. Some might be disappointed
:23:57. > :24:01.with what we have seen recently but we have to respect it has a massive
:24:02. > :24:07.support on the ground. If we get it right in December, the support will
:24:08. > :24:11.return to the ANC and we will continue to reform South Africa in
:24:12. > :24:13.the right kind of way. I must thank you very much by being on HARDtalk.
:24:14. > :24:18.Thank you for having me.