:00:00. > :00:12.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:13. > :00:18.In the age of Donald Trump, maybe the world is getting used
:00:19. > :00:23.to international politics delivering the unexpected.
:00:24. > :00:26.Nonetheless, the political career of my guest today is still
:00:27. > :00:31.breathtakingly bizarre. Mikheil Saakashvili served two terms
:00:32. > :00:35.as president of Georgia. He then abandoned his
:00:36. > :00:37.home country to take citizenship in Ukraine,
:00:38. > :00:39.serving as a regional governor until he fell out spectacularly
:00:40. > :00:42.with the Ukrainian President. Now he has been stripped
:00:43. > :00:44.of Ukrainian citizenship, So is this the end of Mikhail
:00:45. > :01:15.Saakashvili's political career? Mikheil Saakashvili,
:01:16. > :01:32.welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for inviting me, Stephen.
:01:33. > :01:36.I have to ask you, why on earth are you in the Polish capital? Is it
:01:37. > :01:45.because, as a stateless person, you have no home and you really don't
:01:46. > :01:49.know where to go? Well, I have home. I have home certainly in Ukraine,
:01:50. > :01:54.that is my permanent place of residence. And I still have home in
:01:55. > :02:01.Georgia. I am here because I was invited by my Polish friends, after
:02:02. > :02:05.this decision of Poroshenko, and I am here because it is close to
:02:06. > :02:08.Ukraine, and because from here I am planning my return to Ukraine, which
:02:09. > :02:13.I had announced that would take place on nine or ten of September.
:02:14. > :02:19.And we need to deal with a number of organisational aspects of that whole
:02:20. > :02:22.enterprise. Well, yes. A very polite way of putting organisational
:02:23. > :02:26.aspects. The truth is, if you go back to Ukraine on ten September, as
:02:27. > :02:30.you say you will, I can only imagine you will be detained as an illegal
:02:31. > :02:34.entrant into the country. It was you don't have any right to be in
:02:35. > :02:37.Ukraine. You have been stripped of your passport and your citizenship.
:02:38. > :02:41.Well, first of all, I have full legal rights, even if one considers
:02:42. > :02:46.that I am a stateless person, which obviously is a very debatable thing,
:02:47. > :02:50.at if I am a stateless person, I am a stateless person in Ukraine. And
:02:51. > :02:54.stateless persons in Ukraine, under Ukrainian constitution, enjoy all
:02:55. > :02:58.the rights of... All the human rights inside Ukraine. That is
:02:59. > :03:03.first. But second, the whole way how they did it, you know, quite
:03:04. > :03:06.unprecedented that I was on my private trip to the United States.
:03:07. > :03:14.President Poroshenko waited for me to leave. They changed the
:03:15. > :03:19.commission, added new members, even more loyal to him, and without any
:03:20. > :03:24.prior notification, without any public hearings or any kind of
:03:25. > :03:27.hearings, in a very secret manner, they stripped me of citizenship, in
:03:28. > :03:32.violation of the Ukrainian constitution, in violation of the
:03:33. > :03:37.1961 Convention on... Yes, the problem is, you broke the rules. So
:03:38. > :03:41.I am going back to Ukraine to fight, writes in the court. Well, yes, you
:03:42. > :03:45.might have your day in court, I suppose, but let's go through this
:03:46. > :03:48.by stages. Will you that that you broke the rules? You didn't, when
:03:49. > :03:51.you signed all the forms, fill the forms in four Ukrainian citizenship,
:03:52. > :03:55.you didn't declare that you were under criminal investigation in
:03:56. > :03:59.Georgia. And you should have done, according to Ukrainian law. Well,
:04:00. > :04:04.certainly it's not true. Most of all I declared everything, and they
:04:05. > :04:07.demanded that I get all the documents, which I filled, because
:04:08. > :04:11.they published documents with my fake signature, and the prosecutor
:04:12. > :04:15.general of the Ukraine, in conversation, realised it was a fake
:04:16. > :04:18.signature because he knows me well and he knows my signatures. Because
:04:19. > :04:23.I happened to award him with medals when I was president of Georgia,
:04:24. > :04:27.something like that. So this wasn't even my signature. But even had that
:04:28. > :04:31.been true, which it is not true, Ukraine prosper President has no
:04:32. > :04:38.right to deprive Ukrainian citizens of citizenship. It is specifically
:04:39. > :04:43.when you don't have any other citizenship. And there is the fact
:04:44. > :04:49.that many people in Ukrainian parliament, Ukrainian politics, and
:04:50. > :04:53.Ukrainian oligarchs, mainly, they have other countries' citizenships.
:04:54. > :04:56.They never deprived them of anything. They just went after me
:04:57. > :05:00.because there was clearly political motivation. And with regard to the
:05:01. > :05:03.so called Criminal Cases Review Joe, with regard to those Criminal Cases
:05:04. > :05:07.Review, you let me finish that. Ukraine's prosecutor general twice
:05:08. > :05:12.wrote back to Georgiaprosecutors saying that it is purely a political
:05:13. > :05:16.matter. There is no legal substance to the criminal matters in Georgia,
:05:17. > :05:20.and Ukraine refused officially to recognise that one, 2... Occasions.
:05:21. > :05:24.So that takes care of the issue. So I am going to stop you, because it
:05:25. > :05:28.is complex and I am trying to simplify it for our audience.
:05:29. > :05:31.Because going back to 2007, when you are president of Georgia, it is now
:05:32. > :05:35.alleged in the Georgian courts, and you face charges as a result of
:05:36. > :05:40.this, it is alleged that you abuse your power in the way that you
:05:41. > :05:45.handled and repressed some protest demonstrations, and also in the way
:05:46. > :05:50.you tried to intimidate, it is said, and opposition TV station. Now,
:05:51. > :05:54.those are charges that you face in Georgia. The Ukrainians have said
:05:55. > :05:58.that if you try to get back to Ukraine, they will then consider a
:05:59. > :06:02.Georgian extradition request to send you straight to stand trial. So why
:06:03. > :06:08.don't you just miss out the middleman, face the music, and go to
:06:09. > :06:15.the police the and make your case before a court -- GOTO Tbilisi?
:06:16. > :06:19.Because I am an active politician. I am a leader of a rapidly growing
:06:20. > :06:23.party in Ukraine. I have lots of supporters in Ukraine and I pledge
:06:24. > :06:27.to the Ukrainian people that I will carry on till the very end the flag
:06:28. > :06:30.of the reforms which I along with other people happen to symbolise.
:06:31. > :06:33.That is first. Second, when you talk about so-called charges, they have
:06:34. > :06:36.not been recognised by any other countries in the world. Interpol
:06:37. > :06:38.specifically refused to issue a search warrant on the arrest
:06:39. > :06:41.warrant, only, because from the outset it was clear that it was
:06:42. > :06:46.politically motivated. You are referring to the charges which were
:06:47. > :06:51.brought by Russian oligarchs, who happened to be in control of the
:06:52. > :06:55.Georgian government. He was installed by President Putin after I
:06:56. > :06:58.had finished... Basically after I had finished my two terms in
:06:59. > :07:05.Parliament, with parliamentary elections. He happened to be the
:07:06. > :07:08.biggest private shareholder of the Russian oil company, and this man
:07:09. > :07:13.got $2 billion for elections with the specific mandate which was
:07:14. > :07:20.openly articulated both by Putin and Medvedev. He said we want in Georgia
:07:21. > :07:23.a government that will try Saakashvili. You know what is funny
:07:24. > :07:28.about this, this is all extraordinary complicated. And no
:07:29. > :07:31.one takes them seriously. Well, it is all very competent, people might
:07:32. > :07:35.struggle to get a grip on the spot one thing people might understand is
:07:36. > :07:38.the phrase what goes around comes around. And this man that you
:07:39. > :07:42.describe as a Russian oligarch, but in fact of course has Georgian
:07:43. > :07:48.citizenship, he has been your enemy for a number of years, Bidzina
:07:49. > :07:52.Ivanishvili. When you were Premier of Georgia you tried to strip him of
:07:53. > :07:55.his citizenship and he stand as a man who's been stripped of your
:07:56. > :07:59.Ukrainian citizenship. You are a man who has played games in a very, very
:08:00. > :08:05.difficult region for a long time, and frankly, it has come back to
:08:06. > :08:11.bite you on the bomb. Let me make it very clear. Ivanishvili lost his
:08:12. > :08:15.citizenship automatically because he got another country's citizenship,
:08:16. > :08:20.and that is how citizenship in Georgia is. However, no one has
:08:21. > :08:24.expelled him for the country, unlike Poroshenko did for me, against me.
:08:25. > :08:28.And second, we specifically change the law because he was back then the
:08:29. > :08:31.leader of one of the biggest parties. We change the law
:08:32. > :08:34.specifically for him and allowed foreign nationals from the European
:08:35. > :08:39.Union, quite an exception, to run for elected office in Georgia. We
:08:40. > :08:43.specifically accommodated the law to safeguard the democracy. So these
:08:44. > :08:47.are two radically different cases. I wish Poroshenko had done it. If
:08:48. > :08:51.Poroshenko did the same thing to me as I did the Ivanishvili, I would
:08:52. > :08:55.have been more than happy if he allowed me into the country legally
:08:56. > :08:58.and allows me to run in the elections. Then he can not even...
:08:59. > :09:03.Even if it is without citizenship. So these are not the comparisons. We
:09:04. > :09:07.will get the Ukrainian politics in just a second. I wasn't afraid of
:09:08. > :09:11.him initially as a competition. I never was afraid, despite his money,
:09:12. > :09:18.and Poroshenko was afraid of me. And when you said is at the end of the
:09:19. > :09:22.political career of Saakashvili, what I think it is the end of the
:09:23. > :09:27.career of Poroshenko. He showed extreme negligence of the law, and
:09:28. > :09:30.he looks like a very bad but also very weak politician. But also the
:09:31. > :09:34.oligarchy system in Ukraine, which had been destroyed in Ukraine for
:09:35. > :09:38.the last only five years. This is very interesting, because you now
:09:39. > :09:41.condemn Poroshenko, described him as the friend of the oligarchs, a man
:09:42. > :09:46.who has completely failed Ukraine. Of course, he was a great friend.
:09:47. > :09:51.You were at college together. He was the man who invited you in 2015 to
:09:52. > :09:55.come to Ukraine, encouraging you to take citizenship, and then offered
:09:56. > :09:58.you the appointment as Governor of the Odessa region. Have you paused
:09:59. > :10:02.for a moment of sort of self reflection, to wonder why Poroshenko
:10:03. > :10:07.now regards you as extremely bad news? Like so many other people in
:10:08. > :10:11.your career, you seem to have made an awful lot of enemies, and the
:10:12. > :10:19.most recent one, of course, is Mr Poroshenko himself. Look, you
:10:20. > :10:22.said... You were exact when you said I studied in Ukraine. I spent
:10:23. > :10:26.altogether 13 years of my life in Ukraine, and I was not invited to
:10:27. > :10:29.Ukraine by Poroshenko. Basically we came almost at the same time to
:10:30. > :10:35.study in Ukraine from other countries. He came from Moldova, I
:10:36. > :10:42.came from Georgia. Now, I was, as a student, part of the first Ukrainian
:10:43. > :10:48.revolution, and then the first Maidan. I was there on the second
:10:49. > :10:52.Maidan, and I stayed after second Maidan, even if the leader decided
:10:53. > :10:57.to do the same thing as Poroshenko is doing to me now, to declare me
:10:58. > :11:02.persona non grata. So part of the Ukrainian landscape and history for
:11:03. > :11:06.the last 25 years. No offence, but you are not Ukrainian, you are
:11:07. > :11:13.Georgian. I am Georgian. I am proud to be Georgian. But there are at
:11:14. > :11:16.intertwined stories of Georgians and Ukrainians. There were Ukrainians
:11:17. > :11:20.fighting for Georgia in the 90s against Russian immigration, there
:11:21. > :11:25.were officers only front, on the eastern front. There are many people
:11:26. > :11:28.of Georgian origin in Ukraine. In the Ukrainian political spectrum.
:11:29. > :11:32.There is a Ukrainian minister in the Georgian government. So if you will
:11:33. > :11:35.just talk about ethnicity, these countries are interconnected. And
:11:36. > :11:42.you are exactly right. I've got lots of enemies, but I would be very
:11:43. > :11:45.unhappy if they don't consider me their friend. But what we have in
:11:46. > :11:50.these countries is that oligarchs took over. And things are not as
:11:51. > :11:54.they look, because Georgia is controlled by one oligarch, Moldova
:11:55. > :11:57.is controlled by another, Ukraine is controlled by several oligarchs that
:11:58. > :12:01.control the entire government and more than 70% of Ukraine's GDP. And
:12:02. > :12:06.then western politicians come, shake hands of, in case of mob over and
:12:07. > :12:10.Georgia, prime ministers and ministers, in case of Ukraine of
:12:11. > :12:14.ministers, and they are not in charge of the countries. So who is
:12:15. > :12:19.in charge of those countries are oligarchs. Stop pretending. Well,
:12:20. > :12:23.let agree... Hang on, hang on. I need to ask you some questions or we
:12:24. > :12:27.won't get anywhere. Let's agree that you have lots of enemies in Ukraine.
:12:28. > :12:32.You call them oligarchs and autocrats. At the problem for you is
:12:33. > :12:36.that you went to Ukraine, and the Odessa in particular, saying you are
:12:37. > :12:41.going to root out corruption, you are going to clean out that region.
:12:42. > :12:44.-- kleptocrats. You fail to do that, because corruption clearly was still
:12:45. > :12:48.prevalent when you were there. And the problem is, many Ukrainian
:12:49. > :12:52.stopper but you won't really focused on doing a job in Odessa, you were
:12:53. > :12:56.too busy playing politics in Kiev, because he wanted the top job of
:12:57. > :13:01.your self, of prime minister, and to grow the actual prime minister, are
:13:02. > :13:06.Sony Yatsenyuk, he said you are nothing but the travelling showman
:13:07. > :13:09.and blabbermouth. You were invited into this country to promote reform,
:13:10. > :13:18.not to engage in politicking. That was your mistake. Look. I have been
:13:19. > :13:21.offered three times, on three occasions, by President Poroshenko
:13:22. > :13:26.to become prime minister of Ukraine and I declined. And it is a
:13:27. > :13:29.well-known fact. I declined it because I thought that the present
:13:30. > :13:34.circumstances, they just wanted me for a facade, because that was the
:13:35. > :13:38.moment where I first became popular. In the Ukraine, they thought it
:13:39. > :13:42.would sell to their populations, real reforms. Well, a majority of
:13:43. > :13:46.this he did not want the reforms. From the very beginning, you rightly
:13:47. > :13:50.said that I stood by Poroshenko's side. I don't regret it, because
:13:51. > :13:57.basically, things were starting well. Things were starting well
:13:58. > :14:00.after Maidan. We adopted anti-corruption laws, we created a
:14:01. > :14:06.national anti-corruption bureau and I was at the helm of making it,
:14:07. > :14:08.together with others lots of young, idealistic Ukrainians came to
:14:09. > :14:13.different positions in government, and indeed I went to Odessa as part
:14:14. > :14:15.of a deal to clean up the most corrupt, but the most strategically
:14:16. > :14:22.important region of Ukraine, and also a region that was strongly
:14:23. > :14:25.destabilised by separatists. And moments of Moscow intrusion. And I
:14:26. > :14:29.went there specifically with clear promise from Poroshenko that he
:14:30. > :14:35.would help me to clean up there, by also changing some laws in Kiev, and
:14:36. > :14:39.by making customs more transparent, by making the tax system better, and
:14:40. > :14:45.instead we got exactly the opposite. The very moment when I confronted
:14:46. > :14:48.it, and I think we delivered on customs in Odessa, which is the most
:14:49. > :14:52.important customs in Ukraine, for all the time I was there it was
:14:53. > :14:55.absolutely clean, and that is a well-known fact. Then we created the
:14:56. > :14:59.best public services in the whole of Ukraine. I basically pushed the
:15:00. > :15:04.Central government for the first time in 40 years to build very
:15:05. > :15:07.important strategic roads, to restore at top because it was the
:15:08. > :15:13.worst in Europe. We had some achievements.
:15:14. > :15:21.Changing the laws, allowing them to be reversible. He played the other
:15:22. > :15:28.side. That is the main reason I said, you quoted him, but two days
:15:29. > :15:37.ago, there was the anticorruption charge. Another wave of cracking
:15:38. > :15:41.down on pro-democracy and all that. Do you know what government people
:15:42. > :15:45.were saying? You are an anticorruption fighter, why do that
:15:46. > :15:52.if you are successful? They are blaming us for there are issues.
:15:53. > :15:56.Iker as they are willing to kill their country. We are doing our
:15:57. > :16:01.best. They turn around and say we will prosecute you for failing to
:16:02. > :16:10.tackle corruption. Your narrative has a lot of holes in it. One of the
:16:11. > :16:18.big ones is use a you are Mr Clean, you are going to clean it out and
:16:19. > :16:22.Poroshenko stock you. -- You say. The political movement you founded
:16:23. > :16:30.in Ukraine, use a Poroshenko is very frightened of it. Why would he be?
:16:31. > :16:36.You and your party in Ukraine stand at the grand total of 2%. Why would
:16:37. > :16:44.Mr Poroshenko be frightened of you now? They are two different things.
:16:45. > :16:51.I am one of the most popular politicians in Ukraine and no one
:16:52. > :16:56.argues that. There are periods when I am the most popular... I don't
:16:57. > :17:02.doubt it. But whether you have popularity is another question
:17:03. > :17:07.altogether. You can see the polls. It is obvious. I am one of the most
:17:08. > :17:13.popular in Ukraine. I created a political party without the help of
:17:14. > :17:19.the media. There was a situation that was obvious, for instance, they
:17:20. > :17:24.registered absolutely under the same name the Minister for Justice of the
:17:25. > :17:32.Ukraine registered another political party. They are afraid of somebody.
:17:33. > :17:39.It is not just one party. Overall in the Ukraine there is a wave of new
:17:40. > :17:45.generation Ukrainians stepping up. I am not asking for myself. I am an
:17:46. > :17:52.icebreaker. We need them to get through the hurdles the oligarchy
:17:53. > :17:59.created. Look at Ukraine, a world record GDP. In Poland, Ukraine, they
:18:00. > :18:05.start the same conditions, and now look at Poland. Their rights two
:18:06. > :18:13.centre differences, Poland has oligarchs and no corruption. --
:18:14. > :18:19.there are two central. Arguably, they had more resources in Poland.
:18:20. > :18:28.They were very lucky with their political class. They showed their
:18:29. > :18:32.final face, an ugly face, with all of what they have done. The bigger
:18:33. > :18:41.picture. Do you worry in the course of your career, I am thinking about
:18:42. > :18:45.George and the Ukraine, with such chaos, going to war with Vladimir
:18:46. > :18:50.Putin in 2008 in Georgia, and your decision now to essentially declare
:18:51. > :18:53.political war on President Poroshenko who you accuse of being a
:18:54. > :18:58.friend of crooks and bandits and oligarchs, are you not concerned by
:18:59. > :19:05.selling this chaos in two countries, Georgia and Ukraine, you are doing
:19:06. > :19:12.the work of Vladimir Putin inadvertently? -- sowing. What
:19:13. > :19:18.Poroshenko did was what Vladimir Putin wants. He has such pleasure
:19:19. > :19:24.from it. It is unfortunate. He was the first foreign policy she and to
:19:25. > :19:33.respond to it. -- politician. He did so with great joy. You don't need
:19:34. > :19:40.proof. You said I sowed chaos in George. Under my leadership at the
:19:41. > :19:47.GDP of George went up from 127th to number nine in the world, four
:19:48. > :19:58.times. We have been the number one reformer 45- in a row with our
:19:59. > :20:08.leadership. Double-digit growth. -- 45 years in a row. You can quote
:20:09. > :20:13.GDP, I accept that improvement, but you took a risk. You thought you
:20:14. > :20:18.could stand up to Vladimir Putin and you failed. You started a conflict
:20:19. > :20:22.you could not possibly win. The consequences of that are still being
:20:23. > :20:31.felt in Georgia and Ukraine today. That is your legacy. I have been on
:20:32. > :20:37.your show several times. Sometimes you actually say I am crazy. I think
:20:38. > :20:41.you know I am a little bit crazy. I would never be crazy to go and
:20:42. > :20:50.confront Russia. It is just like lame Ukraine that Russia attacks us.
:20:51. > :20:54.We have victim behaviour. Despite the Russia attacks, Georgia
:20:55. > :21:00.withstood it and has the fastest development, strangely, after 2008,
:21:01. > :21:07.after the world financial crisis and the Russian attack. George's cities
:21:08. > :21:10.mushroomed and jobs went up and they beat every international benchmark
:21:11. > :21:17.and waiting. That has happened under my watch. Ukrainians are aware of
:21:18. > :21:23.that and would want to repeat it in Ukraine. They deserve it. They are
:21:24. > :21:28.heroic. They get attacked every day. You cannot blame them for it. They
:21:29. > :21:33.were standing their ground in protecting their country. Before we
:21:34. > :21:40.end, a quick question about Donald Trump and the way the region, your
:21:41. > :21:45.region, sees Donald Trump. You made a great point when Donald Trump got
:21:46. > :21:49.victory in 2016, talking about your association with Donald Trump. You
:21:50. > :21:59.posted on the Internet posters of view and Donald Trump back in 2012
:22:00. > :22:04.shaking hands and doing a deal for a hotel that never got built. -- of
:22:05. > :22:08.you and Donald Trump. Yet you criticised Poroshenko for siding
:22:09. > :22:12.with Hillary Clinton. As you look at the region today, do you really
:22:13. > :22:17.think in with Donald Trump is in the interests of Ukraine or indeed
:22:18. > :22:22.George given his relationship, his ambition, to build a warmer and
:22:23. > :22:29.better relationship with Russia? Well, first of all, I am very proud
:22:30. > :22:33.of the project we had in Georgia. It did not get built because I left the
:22:34. > :22:40.government. For the last five years since I left, as I said, the GDP of
:22:41. > :22:47.George quadrupled onto my watch. Basically, it is not... In dollar
:22:48. > :22:52.figures, it is less than under my presidency. A disaster. A sickly old
:22:53. > :23:03.big projects stopped and so did Trump Tower. -- basically all. Isn't
:23:04. > :23:08.it true that Donald Trump is a bit of a disaster for Ukraine? Isn't
:23:09. > :23:13.that the truth? Lock, the United States have been very supportive of
:23:14. > :23:18.Ukraine's central integrity. And I think that has not changed. There
:23:19. > :23:23.was a situation with Rex Tillerson and he was very supportive.
:23:24. > :23:35.Ukrainians deserved all the support of the world for what they achieved.
:23:36. > :23:42.I would not exaggerate what Donald Trump stands for being good for
:23:43. > :23:48.Russia. He is not good for Russia's economy and military. I was lobbying
:23:49. > :23:55.in Congress for Ukraine to defend itself. Not good for Russia. Things
:23:56. > :23:59.are moving in the right direction. If we speak to you again one year
:24:00. > :24:05.from now, will you be in politics or prison? If I am in prison, I won't
:24:06. > :24:09.be in a position to speak with you. Hopefully, we will speak again.
:24:10. > :24:19.Hopefully we will win and everything I will come true. We have to end it
:24:20. > :24:22.there. , thank you very much. I hope we can speak again in one year.
:24:23. > :24:27.Indeed. Thank you very much.