:00:00. > :00:11.Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:12. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. Neo-Nazis and race hate are
:00:20. > :00:22.alive and kicking in the United States. The violence in
:00:23. > :00:27.Charlottesville was shocking not just because a life was taken but
:00:28. > :00:31.also because of the polarising impact of President Trump's
:00:32. > :00:37.responds, fault lines that almost broke the US in the civil war have
:00:38. > :00:40.not been erased. My guest is Richard Cohen, president of the Southern
:00:41. > :00:46.Poverty Law Center, a group devoted to civil rights activism. How fans
:00:47. > :00:48.of all is the notion of a 21st-century American civil war? --
:00:49. > :01:19.fanciful. Richard Cohen in Montgomery,
:01:20. > :01:26.Alabama, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you, looking forward to speaking to
:01:27. > :01:30.you. Of course you join us after all of the destruction of what happened
:01:31. > :01:35.in Charlottesville just a few days ago. In your opinion, what we're
:01:36. > :01:41.seeing in the United States today, all of the heated debate, the anger,
:01:42. > :01:48.the passion, the hatred, is it a blip or is it part of a much deeper
:01:49. > :01:54.trend? It's both. It's both part of a longer term trend and it's also
:01:55. > :01:58.something that has been energised at this particular moment in our
:01:59. > :02:04.country. Let me explain both halves if I can. In our country we've seen
:02:05. > :02:09.a backlash to our changing demographics. You know, we've
:02:10. > :02:13.documented about 100% rise in the number of hate groups since the late
:02:14. > :02:19.90s and they're responding to the changing demographics. That response
:02:20. > :02:23.to our changing demographics is something that you're also seeing on
:02:24. > :02:32.your side of the Atlantic, when you see the response to the increase in
:02:33. > :02:38.immigration in England and in other countries in Western Europe. So this
:02:39. > :02:44.phenomenon is not peculiar to the knighted States. What is peculiar to
:02:45. > :02:50.the United States is Mr Trump. During the campaign he was really
:02:51. > :02:55.playing with fire, Varane a really very xenophobic and racist campaign
:02:56. > :02:59.in my view and that xenophobia and racism has really energised the
:03:00. > :03:02.radical right in an ugly way in our country and we saw that in full
:03:03. > :03:10.display in Charlottesville a week ago. To be clear about this, you are
:03:11. > :03:13.the boss of one of the highest profile civil rights organisations
:03:14. > :03:20.in the United States today, are you saying that President Donald Trump
:03:21. > :03:25.is an out and out racist? I don't know Mr Trump... I don't know what's
:03:26. > :03:30.in his heart. All I do know is his actions have been racist. They've
:03:31. > :03:36.been racist for quite some time. As some of your viewers may know, Mr
:03:37. > :03:42.Trump jumped on the birther bandwagon, claiming perhaps
:03:43. > :03:47.President Obama wasn't born in this country. That was a true racist
:03:48. > :03:52.Kennard. Not only did he jump on it but he lied about it repeatedly,
:03:53. > :03:56.saying things like he had sent investigators to Hawaii and we were
:03:57. > :04:01.going to be amazed by what they saw and what they found. None of it was
:04:02. > :04:05.true. The whole birther controversy was an effort to delegitimise the
:04:06. > :04:12.first black president of our country. It seems to me while your
:04:13. > :04:16.organisation, the Southern Poverty Law Center, spends an awful lot of
:04:17. > :04:20.time on research and claims to be an objective observer of what is
:04:21. > :04:23.happening on the ground in the United States, the things you are
:04:24. > :04:28.saying to me sound so deeply political and, if I may say so,
:04:29. > :04:32.partisan, and also not just your words to me right now, but things
:04:33. > :04:36.you've written. For example you wrote recently the combination of
:04:37. > :04:40.Trump's raises campaign and the attacks on political correctness
:04:41. > :04:43.told many people that the gloves were off and they could
:04:44. > :04:50.unfortunately vote and act with their worst instincts. You seem to
:04:51. > :04:54.be frankly saying that tens of millions of people who voted for
:04:55. > :05:00.Trump in the presidential election are racist. I didn't say that and
:05:01. > :05:06.you misquoted what I said. I didn't say anything about the word vote in
:05:07. > :05:11.what you just read. Let me say quite frankly, we are partisan, we are
:05:12. > :05:15.partisan against hate. We're not an organisation that intervenes in
:05:16. > :05:18.political campaigns, we don't endorse candidates, but we do feel
:05:19. > :05:23.we have an obligation to speak out against hateful rhetoric whenever
:05:24. > :05:30.and especially when it enters into the mainstream. And so I make no
:05:31. > :05:36.apologies for some of the... For condemning the nature of Mr Trump's
:05:37. > :05:41.campaign. It was shameful. And because he energised the right, the
:05:42. > :05:46.radical right, and because he engaged in quite frankly a shameful
:05:47. > :05:52.campaign, he really has lost his moral legitimacy in our country when
:05:53. > :05:56.it comes to condemning hate, and that's a terrific, terrific problem.
:05:57. > :06:02.So to get to the background of Charlottesville specifically, do
:06:03. > :06:06.people who take to the streets in defence, for example, of these
:06:07. > :06:13.symbols of the old Confederacy, they say they're simply expressing their
:06:14. > :06:17.sympathy for America's cultural and political heritage, when they take
:06:18. > :06:21.to the streets and say the statue of general Robert E Lee for example
:06:22. > :06:26.shouldn't come down in Charlottesville, Virginia, are they
:06:27. > :06:32.in your opinion behaving in a way that is inflammatory and that
:06:33. > :06:38.incites hatred? Look, public statues, statues in public places
:06:39. > :06:45.that are erected by the government are... Send a message of who it is
:06:46. > :06:48.that we should be be honouring. The statues of so-called Confederate
:06:49. > :06:53.heroes in our country were raised at a time when people were doing one of
:06:54. > :07:00.two things, celebrating white supremacy or acting in defiance of
:07:01. > :07:07.federal law. What I mean by that is the statues came up into periods in
:07:08. > :07:13.our history, from 1890 to 1920, when Jim Crow was... Had been
:07:14. > :07:17.re-established in the deep South, and after the Supreme Court's
:07:18. > :07:24.decision in 1954 calling for the desegregation of public schools. So
:07:25. > :07:29.those statues were put up to and frankly in the name of white
:07:30. > :07:35.supremacy. So those statues should come down, we shouldn't be honouring
:07:36. > :07:40.people who worked on behalf of slavery. So I think it's quite wrong
:07:41. > :07:46.for people to... No one's trying to take away their heritage, no one's
:07:47. > :07:51.attacking them, we're simply saying that we shouldn't be honouring those
:07:52. > :07:55.folk. I understand your point about when these statues were put up and
:07:56. > :07:59.the motivations of many of the people who are erected them and
:08:00. > :08:03.funded them, but nonetheless they have stood in the towns and cities
:08:04. > :08:08.particularly of the South but not just the South of the United States
:08:09. > :08:13.for an awful long time. We've had Democratic presidents from Carter to
:08:14. > :08:17.Clinton to Obama who's chosen not to use their bully pulpit to make a
:08:18. > :08:22.point of saying these statues must come down, so if we're talking about
:08:23. > :08:26.the atmosphere and the tension in America today, why is it so
:08:27. > :08:31.important to address this and perhaps than those flames today?
:08:32. > :08:38.Look, I don't know if one is fanning these flames. A lot of this goes
:08:39. > :08:43.back a couple of years. As your viewers may know, in June, 2013, a
:08:44. > :08:50.young man with Aidan's heart went into an historic black church in
:08:51. > :08:55.Charleston, South Carolina, and killed nine parishioners. After that
:08:56. > :09:01.the state of South Carolina decided to take down its Confederate flag
:09:02. > :09:06.because they felt, gosh it had no place in 21st-century America and
:09:07. > :09:10.was sending the wrong message, especially after the massacre at the
:09:11. > :09:15.black church. Now, after that there were a number of demonstrations
:09:16. > :09:20.around the country in favour of the Confederate flag and I think what
:09:21. > :09:26.we're seeing now is a continuation of that. So suddenly issues that
:09:27. > :09:32.have long been dormant but come salient and people then speak out. I
:09:33. > :09:39.think you're own SPLC website, say there are well over 1000, something
:09:40. > :09:43.like 1500 different Confederate monuments across the United States,
:09:44. > :09:48.is your group saying they must all come down now this has been brought
:09:49. > :09:53.out into the open and is such a big national debating point, are you
:09:54. > :09:58.saying they all have to come down? There are 1500 Confederate symbols,
:09:59. > :10:03.whether that be a statue, whether that be a holiday, whether that be
:10:04. > :10:07.the name of a street, and I think in all of those instances are
:10:08. > :10:11.communities that support them or to take a hard look and ask themselves,
:10:12. > :10:19.is that the message they want to send? In Montgomery, Alabama,
:10:20. > :10:27.there's a school called Jefferson Davis High School. It was dedicated
:10:28. > :10:32.in the late 1960s when the citizenry or the leadership in Montgomery was
:10:33. > :10:36.still resisting school desegregation. Do I think it's wrong
:10:37. > :10:40.for that school to have been named after Jefferson Davis, a person who
:10:41. > :10:44.fought and led a treasonous government to defend slavery?
:10:45. > :10:50.Absolutely. Do I think the key minute he should change its name?
:10:51. > :10:55.Yes I do. Those in America who see these symbols and statues as
:10:56. > :10:59.fundamentally reprehensible, if this campaign goes on, do you not worry
:11:00. > :11:05.that it will play into the hands of the white supremacists, of the
:11:06. > :11:10.extreme right factions who want to portray America today as indulged in
:11:11. > :11:16.a culture war in which white people are the victims. Do you not feel
:11:17. > :11:21.that that narrative may thrive if you continue with this campaign?
:11:22. > :11:24.While, first, it's not just the Southern Poverty Law Center's
:11:25. > :11:28.campaign, it's something that's been considered and talked about and
:11:29. > :11:35.waged by people all over the country and in response to your question,
:11:36. > :11:39.yes I do, I do worry about the reaction to the taking down of
:11:40. > :11:44.Confederate statues. But I worry more about the message that those
:11:45. > :11:49.statues will send to future generations if they're not dealt
:11:50. > :11:53.with properly. But on this point, and you said, you know, frankly,
:11:54. > :11:58.earlier in this interview, I'm partisan in a sense, I have a side
:11:59. > :12:02.in this debate. Let me quote to you the words of somebody on the other
:12:03. > :12:06.side, a man that you have condemned in very clear terms for a long time
:12:07. > :12:10.now, you've called for his dismissal from the White House, of course he
:12:11. > :12:14.has now gone from the White House, I'm talking, you know, about Steve
:12:15. > :12:18.Bannon and after his departure from the White House he said this, he
:12:19. > :12:23.said," If the Democratic Party and people who support it fall back on
:12:24. > :12:28.the politics of race and identity, that's fine by me because we have
:12:29. > :12:34.economic nationalism and if that is the debate, we will win". Yeah, Mr
:12:35. > :12:40.Bannon did say that and I worry about the dynamics in our country
:12:41. > :12:44.and the flames that Mr Bannon, through Breitbart, through Mr Trump,
:12:45. > :12:50.has fuelled. So we're going through a period where the country's trying
:12:51. > :12:55.to come to terms with the racism of its past and trying to forge a new
:12:56. > :13:01.identity, and of identity that welcomes all Americans. Again, these
:13:02. > :13:05.are not struggles... These are not struggles that exist only in the
:13:06. > :13:09.United States. You know, when I think about the vote at Brexit, when
:13:10. > :13:20.I think about Thomas Maier, who killed Jo Cox, he too was a man with
:13:21. > :13:25.Heydon's heart, he too represented a white supremacy and the backlash
:13:26. > :13:31.against the changing demographics of the Western world. Let's get down to
:13:32. > :13:34.specifics now because we talk about two a lot about the politics of the
:13:35. > :13:39.United States today, we haven't talked about in detail the nature of
:13:40. > :13:46.hate groups, and that in the end is at the core of your organisation's
:13:47. > :13:57.activism and campaigning. What actually constitutes a hate group to
:13:58. > :14:03.you? We label them hate groups if they target groups of people for
:14:04. > :14:08.their race, ethnicity, sexual orientation or the like. It's not
:14:09. > :14:12.that you're saying you don't have a right to express hate in the United
:14:13. > :14:18.States in 2017, because surely under the First Amendment you do have that
:14:19. > :14:22.right? Absolutely. You have a right to express hate and we have a right
:14:23. > :14:29.to call it out in the exercise of our First Amendment rights. But then
:14:30. > :14:32.when you lump together the white supremacists, the neo-Nazis and
:14:33. > :14:42.other groups who appeared to the outside observer, for example the
:14:43. > :14:45.centre For Immigration Studies, a Conservative anti immigration think
:14:46. > :14:51.tank, some people are left confused, is there really a strand that unites
:14:52. > :14:53.the neo-Nazi groups in the US today with the scent of immigration
:14:54. > :15:02.studies? I think there is. If you look at the
:15:03. > :15:06.words of the Centre for Immigration Studies and its leaders, I think you
:15:07. > :15:12.hear racism. They are not simply opposing immigration because of some
:15:13. > :15:18.view of how it will affect the United States economically. It also
:15:19. > :15:22.appears to us that there is... That their views are tinged with racism.
:15:23. > :15:29.Let me give you an example. After the devastating earthquake in Haiti,
:15:30. > :15:35.the head of the Centre for Immigration Studies said that maybe
:15:36. > :15:41.the reason Haiti was having so many problems was because it wasn't
:15:42. > :15:47.colonised long enough. And he responds by saying that the idea
:15:48. > :15:50.that we, a think-tank on Quay Street, which is of course the
:15:51. > :15:54.street in Washington where all the lobbyist sets, that we as a
:15:55. > :15:58.think-tank are comparable to a skinhead group is simply laughable.
:15:59. > :16:03.And he points out that dozens and dozens of times, his think-tank, his
:16:04. > :16:06.centre, has been invited to testify before Congress. You know, if you
:16:07. > :16:11.use this very blunt instrument of lumping them in the same category...
:16:12. > :16:18.That's the problem. That sometimes the groups that spew racism or have
:16:19. > :16:21.racism tainting their message, the fact that they get into the
:16:22. > :16:26.mainstream makes them more dangerous, perhaps, than the
:16:27. > :16:31.skinhead group that everyone recognises as something margin
:16:32. > :16:36.marginal. You know, Mr Krikorian's organisation has published scores
:16:37. > :16:40.and scores of articles, reprinted scores and scores or republished
:16:41. > :16:45.scores and scores of articles, from racists. We have documented this. So
:16:46. > :16:51.again, the fact that they have testified in Congress, in our view,
:16:52. > :16:55.that is the problem. They shouldn't. They are an example of hate in the
:16:56. > :17:01.mainstream. It is always easy to tell the haters if they have
:17:02. > :17:06.swastikas or white sheets. It is harder to recognise the haters who
:17:07. > :17:10.are in business suits. That is why we think it is so important to point
:17:11. > :17:14.them out when we see them. It is harder, and sometimes you get them
:17:15. > :17:17.wrong. For example, Doctor Ben Carson, who currently sits in the
:17:18. > :17:21.Trump administration, but was this a candidate or president himself back
:17:22. > :17:25.during the campaign, you put him on a list of people peddling hate, and
:17:26. > :17:31.then you had to apologise. What happened there? Can you explain to
:17:32. > :17:35.me how you can make that kind of mistake to put it bluntly? Well,
:17:36. > :17:39.look. We acknowledged it was a mistake, and publicly apologised to
:17:40. > :17:44.Doctor Carson. We did not call him a hater. We had him on a list of
:17:45. > :17:50.extremists, and that was a mistake. I think anyone who googles Mr Carson
:17:51. > :17:55.can see that he made some... What I would say, you know, odd, peculiar,
:17:56. > :17:59.extreme statements. But we shouldn't have listed him on the way that we
:18:00. > :18:05.do. We make mistakes sometimes, and we own up to them. Do you think it
:18:06. > :18:11.is dangerous, this polarisation, which you are a part of? And I
:18:12. > :18:15.understand why you feel it is so important to stand up to hate, but
:18:16. > :18:20.in a sense, you are part of the polarisation. Well, look. I don't
:18:21. > :18:25.think... I don't think hate and calling out hate are morally
:18:26. > :18:34.equivalent. I think that is a false equivalency, and so I think they are
:18:35. > :18:39.quite different things. So I would reject the premise of your question
:18:40. > :18:44.entirely. Let's get, then, to the critique that comes your way from
:18:45. > :18:48.the other side, if you like. And that is from those young people in
:18:49. > :18:50.particular who look at what is happening on the streets of
:18:51. > :18:54.Charlottesville and elsewhere today, and they say that the only way to
:18:55. > :19:00.confront the neo-Nazis, white supremacists, the Ku Klux Klan, the
:19:01. > :19:06.only way is to confront them with direct action, and if they are
:19:07. > :19:12.violent, if the extremists from the right are violent, then these
:19:13. > :19:15.groups, they call themselves antifa, the antifascist action groupings,
:19:16. > :19:20.they say they will be violent themselves. You have ruled out that
:19:21. > :19:27.kind of response. Why? Well, we think that no group with the antifa,
:19:28. > :19:31.we think, are absolutely part of the problem. The idea that they decide
:19:32. > :19:37.themselves that they can stop another group from speaking is
:19:38. > :19:42.antithetical to the values in the first Amendment in our country, and
:19:43. > :19:46.horribly counter-productive. So you know, we have been consistent in
:19:47. > :19:51.saying that... In condemning the antifa. They are completely
:19:52. > :19:57.misguided, and I think their tactics are quite dangerous. Here is a quote
:19:58. > :20:00.from one. 20-year-old Emily Rose on the streets of Charlottesville, she
:20:01. > :20:03.said, people are starting to understand that neo-Nazis don't care
:20:04. > :20:09.if you are quiet and if you are peaceful. You need violence in order
:20:10. > :20:16.to protect non-violence. Yes, well, look. You saw what happened in
:20:17. > :20:19.Charlottesville. You know, just a terrible situation. And then you
:20:20. > :20:22.contrast it with what happened in Boston, where thousands and
:20:23. > :20:28.thousands of people came and marched in peace against hate. I think the
:20:29. > :20:33.message that the good people of Boston sent peacefully was certainly
:20:34. > :20:40.much more powerful than the message that the antifa sent in
:20:41. > :20:43.Charlottesville, with their clubs. So if the clansman or the white
:20:44. > :20:51.supremacist saw the neo-Nazis want to march, you say we have got to let
:20:52. > :20:55.the march? Absolutely. They have a right to... They have a right to
:20:56. > :20:58.their speech, and I think an effort to suppress them only plays into
:20:59. > :21:04.their hands, by allowing them to portray themselves as martyrs.
:21:05. > :21:07.Before we end, I want to ask you about one different aspect of your
:21:08. > :21:11.activism and campaigning. That is your concern about the rising tide
:21:12. > :21:14.in Islamic phobia in the United States. And all the figures show
:21:15. > :21:19.that it is spiking and has done so for the last few years. You have
:21:20. > :21:24.chosen to end some of your fire at people who actually have made it
:21:25. > :21:28.their life's work to campaign against extremist Islamist. I am
:21:29. > :21:35.thinking for example of the head of the Quilliam organisation here in
:21:36. > :21:39.the United Kingdom. He is so angry with the fact you have put him on a
:21:40. > :21:45.list of extremists that he is threatening to sue you. Why did you
:21:46. > :21:52.do that? Well, Lock. What we have said about Mr Nawaz is a matter of
:21:53. > :21:56.public record, and given that he has said he is going to sue us, I don't
:21:57. > :22:00.think it is appropriate for me to comment any further at this time.
:22:01. > :22:03.All right, another inveterate campaign against jihadis, radicalism
:22:04. > :22:08.is, you have also had her in your line of fire as well. It just seems
:22:09. > :22:12.to me you are choosing to pick on people who have taken risks
:22:13. > :22:20.themselves to confront the dangers that are represented by extreme
:22:21. > :22:24.political and violent Islamist. Yes, no, I understand the point that you
:22:25. > :22:29.are making. Of course, the person who you are speaking of has
:22:30. > :22:34.described, you know, Islam as a death cult. I think that is painting
:22:35. > :22:42.with a very, very broad rush, and doesn't help the cause of interfaith
:22:43. > :22:46.understanding. So you have no regrets about that? You don't think
:22:47. > :22:49.that perhaps your message on Islamist phobia has been somewhat
:22:50. > :22:53.confused some of the targets you have picked Don? I understand the
:22:54. > :23:00.criticism, but I think the larger issue is that we know that there has
:23:01. > :23:04.been a rise in anti-Muslim fever in this country, just as there has been
:23:05. > :23:09.a rise in Britain and in other places in Western Europe. And it is
:23:10. > :23:14.a tremendous problem, and it is something that someone like Mr Trump
:23:15. > :23:19.has exacerbated through his rhetoric during his campaign and his actions
:23:20. > :23:23.as the President. Richard Cohen, I want to end, if I may, with this one
:23:24. > :23:27.broadbrush question. I was very taken by a New Yorker magazine
:23:28. > :23:30.article just a few days ago which talked about the possibility of the
:23:31. > :23:35.new American civil war. And they pulled a bunch of historians and
:23:36. > :23:39.leading analyst and asked them to stay in percentage terms what they
:23:40. > :23:43.thought the possibility was. And the consensus was a 35% possibility they
:23:44. > :23:49.could be a new American civil war. Where would you put it? I would put
:23:50. > :23:55.it at zero. I think those estimates are ridiculous. You know, America is
:23:56. > :24:00.a strong country, and we will get through this. Sure, we will continue
:24:01. > :24:04.to have controversy around race. That is going to happen in our
:24:05. > :24:08.country, that is going to happen in England. At our country is not going
:24:09. > :24:14.to break out into a civil war, I would bet my life on it. All right,
:24:15. > :24:21.well, we have to leave it there. But I thank you, Richard Cohen, for
:24:22. > :24:24.joining me from Montgomery, Alabama. Thank you.