:00:00. > :00:11.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:12. > :00:14.Relations between the United States and North Korea have
:00:15. > :00:20.The recent toe-to-toe confrontation between Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un
:00:21. > :00:37.raised fears of a conflagration on the Korean Peninsula.
:00:38. > :00:41.My guess today has a unique perspective on North Korea's often
:00:42. > :00:47.impenetrable mindset. Kenneth Bae, an American
:00:48. > :00:49.Christian missionary of Korean descent who was arrested
:00:50. > :00:51.inside North Korea and spent two years
:00:52. > :00:53.in a Pyongyang prison. What does his experience tell
:00:54. > :01:24.us about the world's Kenneth Bae, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:25. > :01:30.Let's begin with your decision to go and live in China in 2006. Quite
:01:31. > :01:37.soon afterwards, you began undertaking tours into North Korea,
:01:38. > :01:43.that special economic zone inside North Korea, close to the Chinese
:01:44. > :01:49.border. Why did you undertake those tours? I was sent as a missionary to
:01:50. > :01:54.China, and I was living in the Chinese community. While I was
:01:55. > :02:01.serving in the Chinese community, I was able to meet with North Korean
:02:02. > :02:07.defectors and others. I ended up visiting North Korea to see what it
:02:08. > :02:13.is like to live there, what it is like to see how people live there.
:02:14. > :02:20.By doing so, I ended up conducting a tour into the country 's. When you
:02:21. > :02:25.say you went there to see how people lived, you also went as a Christian
:02:26. > :02:30.missionary? That is correct. I am a Christian missionary and I was there
:02:31. > :02:36.to see how we could help the people that, how to pray for the people,
:02:37. > :02:40.and how to build a bridge to the people in North Korea. You and the
:02:41. > :02:47.people on your tours, you were all committed Christians. You had a
:02:48. > :02:52.Christian outreach purpose in going to North Korea. You went with
:02:53. > :02:56.Bibles? That is correct, we had something to worship with but we
:02:57. > :03:03.kept it to ourselves. I was told it was quite safe as long as we clapped
:03:04. > :03:13.our worship and prayer to ourselves it was not something to worry about
:03:14. > :03:20.-- kept. We went in to see the land and engaged in different
:03:21. > :03:25.conversations, without vandalising people they are. It seems you are
:03:26. > :03:28.treading a difficult, grey line, because as we all know,
:03:29. > :03:36.Christianity, for people inside North Korea, it is forbidden. If
:03:37. > :03:41.they possess a Bible they can face extreme criminal punishment. I going
:03:42. > :03:44.in with a missionary mission and to be intent to signal to those people
:03:45. > :03:52.in North Korea your Christian purpose, were you not running risks
:03:53. > :03:56.both for yourself and the people you are meeting? It was perfectly OK to
:03:57. > :04:02.bring a Bible as a tourist into North Korea. As long as we keep the
:04:03. > :04:08.Bible to ourselves, it should not be any problem. What about the chats
:04:09. > :04:14.you had, the hymns you saying with North Korean people in close
:04:15. > :04:20.attendance? The press? At one point, I believe you said that you pray
:04:21. > :04:26.that Jesus can make a channel to the north? -- payers. If North Koreans
:04:27. > :04:31.appear sympathetic to that, you would get them and yourself in
:04:32. > :04:35.trouble. We had to work with different channels, we worked with
:04:36. > :04:42.people in the two industry in North Korea. There was a specialised city
:04:43. > :04:53.that I brought people into. It was OK for Christians going on to pray.
:04:54. > :04:57.As long as it was in our own spaces. We fast forward through a number of
:04:58. > :05:04.these trips you undertook, to the trip you undertook in late 2012 when
:05:05. > :05:08.you actually got attained. That's correct. I am feeling that cannot
:05:09. > :05:14.have been a complete surprise to you, given the North Korean regime
:05:15. > :05:20.and what you are trying to do? I made a mistake by carrying a
:05:21. > :05:25.portable hard drive into the country that contained some theories about
:05:26. > :05:32.Western media regarding North Korea, about North Korea. They were upset
:05:33. > :05:36.to find out that I had brought in something disturbing to them. This
:05:37. > :05:48.is why I was arrested, not because of what I was doing before. One
:05:49. > :05:51.writer has drafted fascinating books about teaching English to the North
:05:52. > :05:56.Korean elite. She has considered your case and said that basically,
:05:57. > :06:01.you did things that were not allowed by the regime, and you got punished
:06:02. > :06:06.accordingly. That you sort of brought this upon yourself. Would
:06:07. > :06:10.you accept that? I made a mistake by carrying a portable hard drive into
:06:11. > :06:15.the country, but when they realised I brought people to pray and worship
:06:16. > :06:23.inside North Korea, they took it as a hostile act to themselves. They
:06:24. > :06:27.did, they accuse you of all sorts of crimes, but it boiled down to
:06:28. > :06:33.plotting to overthrow the government. That is why you were
:06:34. > :06:36.sentenced to 15 years hard Labour. Overthrowing the government by
:06:37. > :06:44.prayer and worship, that was the charge. Take me back to that moment,
:06:45. > :06:49.I believe it was 2013 when you were sentenced. You had had a lot of
:06:50. > :06:56.interrogation by that point. Some of it had been quite psychologically
:06:57. > :07:01.intense. How did you feel as you stood there, waiting for your
:07:02. > :07:08.sentence? They told me that I probably would not get anything. I
:07:09. > :07:12.don't have to worry about the worst, that is what they told me. That
:07:13. > :07:20.meant the death penalty or life in prison. I knew they would go for a
:07:21. > :07:24.more lenient sentence because I was using my place as a political
:07:25. > :07:29.bargaining chip at the time. 15 years with hard Labour. You said you
:07:30. > :07:33.thought they would treat you leniently, how did you feel when you
:07:34. > :07:38.heard the sentence? I was glad that I got 15 years. I didn't think that
:07:39. > :07:45.I would actually serve 15 years of that sentence in North Korea. I was
:07:46. > :07:50.sort of told that it is not about how many years I would be getting,
:07:51. > :07:55.it is about the attitude and what the US government would do. From the
:07:56. > :07:59.very beginning, it got the feeling that you were a bargaining chip? Not
:08:00. > :08:05.in the beginning, but while the investigation was going, two or
:08:06. > :08:13.three months later, I realised that it was not anything just about
:08:14. > :08:18.myself. Examining not just myself but our entire US government system.
:08:19. > :08:25.Were you ever abused, during the interrogation phase or once they put
:08:26. > :08:31.you into prison as a convict? Was there abuse? No, I was not abused,
:08:32. > :08:41.but there was some psychological trickery. Making us uncomfortable,
:08:42. > :08:46.at the time. Once you said, one of the prosecutors told me I was the
:08:47. > :08:51.worst, most dangerous American women they had apprehended since the
:08:52. > :08:55.Korean War. They said that because they thought I was doing the
:08:56. > :08:59.missionary work by myself, but I trained and mobilised and brought
:09:00. > :09:06.many people in North Korea to pray and worship. There are others who
:09:07. > :09:11.worked in North Korea, they said, it not only you, you brought so many
:09:12. > :09:15.others. Therefore, you are the most dangerous criminal we have ever
:09:16. > :09:20.apprehended. There are so many contradictions to this, I wonder if
:09:21. > :09:23.you can explain. On one level, they hated what you were doing and
:09:24. > :09:27.clearly regarded you as dangerous. The Christian missionary work was
:09:28. > :09:35.something they found more than alarming. And yet, you say that
:09:36. > :09:41.they'd put you in a cell with a Bible, with access to hot water,
:09:42. > :09:45.twice a week you were allowed to visit a former. This is North Korea
:09:46. > :09:50.where the ordinary people of the country are suffering the most
:09:51. > :09:59.terrible deprivations, and you had access to a former? That was in my
:10:00. > :10:11.detention centre but for the trial -- sauna. Apparently they have
:10:12. > :10:23.private bathrooms with a sauna in it. It was not a nice bath time. It
:10:24. > :10:27.was not anything extraordinary. I am just trying to get to grips with
:10:28. > :10:35.what they were doing with you. Do you think, from the outset, they
:10:36. > :10:39.wanted you to be somebody that they, in a sense, preserved in a good
:10:40. > :10:45.condition, physically and mentally, because they hoped that your case,
:10:46. > :10:50.there was another American citizen, Matthew Miller, who was being kept
:10:51. > :10:55.in the same prison for much of the time you were there. They very much
:10:56. > :11:01.for you as part of a way of reaching out to the Obama administration?
:11:02. > :11:06.Exactly. This is what they told me. When I was sent to a Labour camp,
:11:07. > :11:11.the conditions were not that great. The food was not great, I had to
:11:12. > :11:17.work eight hours a day, six days per week. I was not sitting in a nice
:11:18. > :11:26.room for two years. While I was there working, the prosecutor came
:11:27. > :11:30.to see me and told me that, at this rate, your government doesn't care
:11:31. > :11:35.about you enough, you may have to stay here for another seven or eight
:11:36. > :11:40.years. You probably won't get home until you retire. This is the guy
:11:41. > :11:47.who gave me the 15 years of hard Labour sentence. You are officially
:11:48. > :11:55.known as risen at 103, but some gods, when you were alone, they
:11:56. > :12:00.would refer to you as pastor, which suggests to me you developed a
:12:01. > :12:04.relationship with some of them? By about one year into it, I did
:12:05. > :12:07.develop a relationship with some of the gods. I realised they are
:12:08. > :12:13.regular people just like us. They just happened to live there. They
:12:14. > :12:19.were working there. As a human being, we started striking up
:12:20. > :12:27.conversations. When there was nobody around, sometimes instead of calling
:12:28. > :12:32.me a prisoner, they would say, pastor, can I talk to you? It was
:12:33. > :12:37.like everybody else living in the country as well. Having small
:12:38. > :12:43.conversations like that. A great deal of common humanity, you say. I
:12:44. > :12:48.am told that when commentators look at North Korea today, so many assume
:12:49. > :12:53.that it is a society that is absolutely brainwashed. You have
:12:54. > :12:58.been inside that society, in a very particular way, being a prisoner for
:12:59. > :13:05.two years. You have emerged from the experience, you look back at it,
:13:06. > :13:12.does it strike you as a brainwashed society? I think that is pretty much
:13:13. > :13:16.true. As soon as they were born, they were taught that way. The
:13:17. > :13:21.media, everything, they were surrounded by it. Even for me,
:13:22. > :13:27.living there for a few months and watching television and reading the
:13:28. > :13:35.newspapers and books that they get to read, only being there for a few
:13:36. > :13:39.months, I realise that this is actually taking effect on me,
:13:40. > :13:45.because I only see the good sides of the story about the leaders of the
:13:46. > :13:49.country. If people are born there, living in the society, they wonder
:13:50. > :13:58.they think that way. I realised that many of them, they are so
:13:59. > :14:05.brainwashed that, even with different opinions and things, they
:14:06. > :14:12.want to reject everything, because they don't think it can possibly be
:14:13. > :14:17.true. Did a warmup to you? I believe so. We were having conversations,
:14:18. > :14:24.they had some second thoughts. They did wander. Information is key if we
:14:25. > :14:30.want to see any changes happening in North Korea. Information from
:14:31. > :14:31.outside, communication is very important as a tool for winning the
:14:32. > :14:41.hearts of people in North Korea. You are released at the end of 2014
:14:42. > :14:47.and that seemed to be because of a secret visit by James Clapper to
:14:48. > :14:55.North Korea. I'm mindful that your case is so varied if -- different to
:14:56. > :15:00.that of the young man Otto Warmbier who also ended up in prison in North
:15:01. > :15:03.Korea. It is collocated. He was accused of stealing a fine and then
:15:04. > :15:11.each used of espionage and imprisoned. -- stealing a sign. Soon
:15:12. > :15:16.after, it seems, he suffered terrible brain injury and ultimately
:15:17. > :15:22.was returned to the US and died very soon afterwards. Given what you have
:15:23. > :15:28.described about your treatment, can you in anyway explain or speculate
:15:29. > :15:32.about what happened to Otto Warmbier? I can only guess, just
:15:33. > :15:38.like everybody else. I do believe that either there was physical abuse
:15:39. > :15:44.or some kind of accident that could have happened. Why would they abuse
:15:45. > :15:50.him and not you? Your guess is as good as mine. I think it depends on
:15:51. > :15:59.what Otto Warmbier actually did to trigger those kinds of things as
:16:00. > :16:04.well. If it was the poster being taken down, I believe that the
:16:05. > :16:13.poster has Kim Jong-un name on it. If so, it is harsh treatment that
:16:14. > :16:18.could be given. Maybe he had no idea what he was taking down but it has
:16:19. > :16:24.Kim Jong-un's name on the posters and it's actually a pretty serious
:16:25. > :16:33.crime against them. The treatment could be different. And then maybe
:16:34. > :16:39.because in his interview, he used the words, "Save my life." People
:16:40. > :16:50.don't usually say these things. "Spare My life," maybe but not saved
:16:51. > :16:54.my life. He was going under physical or a psychological threat and may be
:16:55. > :16:59.going through a nervous breakdown or something like that. A lot has
:17:00. > :17:03.changed since you were released. Not only has Kim Jong-un's authority in
:17:04. > :17:07.North Korea being exercised in all sorts of ways including more and
:17:08. > :17:12.more missile tests and allegations he has now conquered the
:17:13. > :17:17.militarisation of a nuclear device but we have also seen a change of
:17:18. > :17:21.administration in the United States. Donald Trump is now the President
:17:22. > :17:25.and we have seen that highly dramatic, intense stand-off between
:17:26. > :17:32.Kim Jong-un and Donald Trump in recent weeks. With your perspective
:17:33. > :17:39.and insight, based on what you know of North Korea, when Donald Trump
:17:40. > :17:42.talks of fire and fury, talks of locking and loading, talks of
:17:43. > :17:47.displaying power to North Korea, the likes of which people have never
:17:48. > :17:52.seen before, how do you think North Koreans and obviously their leader
:17:53. > :18:01.Kim Jong-un, would respond to that? They don't like losing their face.
:18:02. > :18:05.In terms of a tough stand, they will continue to stand and stand with
:18:06. > :18:11.that kind of position. I think the missile could nuclear testing may
:18:12. > :18:17.continue until they get to the level they want to be out. You are saying
:18:18. > :18:22.intimidation doesn't work? It may work in little bit but I think
:18:23. > :18:26.eventually they know there is a limitation to what the US government
:18:27. > :18:28.can do because we are talking about a publication whether South Korean
:18:29. > :18:39.government and Japan and everybody else nearby, it may take some time
:18:40. > :18:43.but they may get to where they need to be so they can finally make a
:18:44. > :18:53.meaningful negotiation with the United government. You now live in
:18:54. > :19:01.Seoul and in South Korea they are looking with some consternation. You
:19:02. > :19:08.have gone to live in Seoul and it seems dedicated your life to
:19:09. > :19:13.working, in a large part, with escapees from North Korea. Tell me
:19:14. > :19:19.about the people you are working with today. How many in an average
:19:20. > :19:26.year now out of North Korea and what are they telling you about the way
:19:27. > :19:31.they are experiencing these conditions in North Korea right now?
:19:32. > :19:39.Every year at least 1000- 1500 people are escaping. Many numbers of
:19:40. > :19:46.people are escaping but have been caught on their way to China. But
:19:47. > :19:50.the numbers have gone down. Is that because Kim Jong-un and his regime
:19:51. > :19:54.are guiding and monitoring the river border with China much more closely
:19:55. > :19:58.at its more difficult to escape today than it used to be? Yes,
:19:59. > :20:03.that's true. Right now, it is a lot harder for people to cross the
:20:04. > :20:09.water. After they escape from North Korea, they are living in the border
:20:10. > :20:16.area and from then to get away to the cities and southern regions,
:20:17. > :20:22.it's very difficult. And from the recent escapees, is it your
:20:23. > :20:26.impression that living conditions, we know from UN agencies that
:20:27. > :20:34.roughly 70% of the population are reliant on food aid, in your
:20:35. > :20:39.opinion, is it getting worse or better? Exactly getting better than
:20:40. > :20:55.before. Now they have free market system, almost, and they are using
:20:56. > :20:59.it to gain economic wealth. It's not because of what the government did
:21:00. > :21:06.but the people themselves have to rely on themselves and now they are
:21:07. > :21:14.making trade everyday. It seems like it's got them during those found in
:21:15. > :21:18.years but in terms of people's suffering, it still same. Let's go
:21:19. > :21:22.back to where I began which is asking you about the degree to which
:21:23. > :21:27.you have to take personal responsibility for your arrest in
:21:28. > :21:34.North Korea. You arguably made some pretty terrible decisions. It just
:21:35. > :21:38.strikes me that this issue of committed Christians wanting to get
:21:39. > :21:42.into North Korea for missionary work, it hasn't gone away. After you
:21:43. > :21:47.were arrested, I have found this extraordinary comment from the youth
:21:48. > :21:50.with a mission movement who like to send missionaries to difficult
:21:51. > :21:56.places including North Korea. Even after you had been detained, talked
:21:57. > :21:59.about preparing men and women for preventing the Gospel to North
:22:00. > :22:05.Koreans. Those people whose minds and hearts have atrophied in
:22:06. > :22:09.darkness under Communist rule. The missionary group said, "As long as
:22:10. > :22:16.participants keep a level head and use common sense, there should be no
:22:17. > :22:20.trouble." That is an outrageous thing to say, isn't it? Now you know
:22:21. > :22:25.the US government had issued restrictions and travel bans to
:22:26. > :22:35.North Korea. That's right. I was telling them that for now, time is
:22:36. > :22:41.very different. At the time I was arrested four years ago, time is
:22:42. > :22:45.different. Especially after Otto Warmbier's case, I do not recommend
:22:46. > :22:52.people go there as a tourist at that time. Still, a missionary
:22:53. > :22:55.brandishing a Bible. Well, you know, every group has their own way of
:22:56. > :23:07.doing things. I cannot say for sure that everybody but do believe that
:23:08. > :23:11.they can go with responsibilities. Surely, your message, given your
:23:12. > :23:14.personal experience, to anybody going into North Korea doing
:23:15. > :23:22.Christian outreach, surely your message to them, as a responsible
:23:23. > :23:29.person, should be, "Do not do it." Well, they had to count the costs. I
:23:30. > :23:37.had to pay the cost was that I was imprisoned for two years. --I had to
:23:38. > :23:42.pay the cost. I was imprisoned for two years. I developed a hard for
:23:43. > :23:47.people in North Korea. I am working with refugees outside of North
:23:48. > :23:50.Korea. My heart is still the same for the people inside North Korea.
:23:51. > :23:54.We're talking about 34 million people with no human rights freedoms
:23:55. > :23:58.to choose when they want to leave and there is no information going
:23:59. > :24:02.into them. We need to embrace and care for them but we need to do it
:24:03. > :24:09.wisely. So, in a word, was your experience worth it? Jetta I do
:24:10. > :24:16.believe so. Kenneth Bae, we need to leave it there. --I do believe so.
:24:17. > :24:35.Thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you.
:24:36. > :24:41.A full UK forecast is on the way and I can tell you, it will be
:24:42. > :24:45.nothing like as disruptive or dangerous as the weather we're