0:00:01 > 0:00:06Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk,
0:00:13 > 0:00:16from Lake Como in Italy.
0:00:16 > 0:00:20The venue for the annual Ambrosetti Forum on international affairs.
0:00:20 > 0:00:25And one topic dominates discussion here.
0:00:25 > 0:00:35The impact of the Trump presidency on the United States and the world.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38My guest is the US Republican Senator Lindsey Graham,
0:00:38 > 0:00:40himself once a candidate for the White House,
0:00:40 > 0:00:42and now a consistent thorn in the side
0:00:42 > 0:00:43of President Trump.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45So what does Donald Trump mean for traditional notions
0:00:45 > 0:00:48of American leadership?
0:01:04 > 0:01:10Senator Lindsey Graham, welcome.
0:01:10 > 0:01:11Thank you very much.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14You are at this significant gathering of international
0:01:14 > 0:01:17politicians.
0:01:18 > 0:01:20You have a chance to take the temperature,
0:01:20 > 0:01:22the mood, when it comes to international perceptions
0:01:22 > 0:01:23of President Trump today.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26How would you characterise them?
0:01:26 > 0:01:29I think there's a lot of anxiety in Europe about President Trump.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31I don't think that affects him much at home.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34There was a lot of anxiety about President Reagan,
0:01:34 > 0:01:36a lot of adulation for President Trump.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39So I'm not so sure that's going to affect domestic politics much.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43But people are uncertain, people are unsure.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47Who is this guy, what does he think, where is he taking the world?
0:01:47 > 0:01:49And I can understand that anxiety.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52But anxious for all sorts of reasons, not least the very
0:01:52 > 0:01:54significant figures in the United States,
0:01:54 > 0:02:00like the former director of national intelligence,
0:02:00 > 0:02:02James Clapper, who have said they have
0:02:02 > 0:02:05very grave doubts about Trump's fitness for office.
0:02:05 > 0:02:10He talked about John's words being scary and disturbing.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13Well, I'm not worried about - he's entitled to his opinion.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15But look at the people around President Trump.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17I have not seen a better national security team
0:02:17 > 0:02:18in my political lifetime.
0:02:18 > 0:02:20General Mattis is an excellent Secretary of Defence,
0:02:20 > 0:02:26General Kelly, the chief of staff, General McMaster, Dan Coats,
0:02:26 > 0:02:27the director of national intelligence.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30So he has surrounded himself with very quality people
0:02:30 > 0:02:33we have a traditional view of the world, from a Republican
0:02:33 > 0:02:38point of view, and I think we're going to be fine.
0:02:38 > 0:02:42Well, it surprises me you say that, in a way, because if one looks
0:02:42 > 0:02:44at your own thoughts about Donald Trump, you have,
0:02:44 > 0:02:47over time, expressed your own grave reservations about him.
0:02:47 > 0:02:47Every day!
0:02:47 > 0:02:55About his abilities as Commander-in-Chief?
0:02:55 > 0:02:58During the campaign, I thought some of the things
0:02:58 > 0:03:00he was saying I thought were incendiary and unhelpful
0:03:00 > 0:03:03but now he is Commander-in-Chief and I would say this.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05The Muslim ban was a shaky start.
0:03:05 > 0:03:07The courts rejected his efforts to restrict people coming
0:03:07 > 0:03:10into America, because it appeared to be a ban on a religion,
0:03:10 > 0:03:13and you can't do that in the United States.
0:03:13 > 0:03:15His decision in Afghanistan was a very good decision,
0:03:15 > 0:03:17well thought out, and basically, completely different
0:03:17 > 0:03:19than what he campaigned on.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22Well, we will get to that, because I do want to talk
0:03:22 > 0:03:25national security issues with you, and US foreign policy.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29But first I want to dig away at some of the most controversial elements
0:03:29 > 0:03:29of the Trump presidency.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33And there is no doubt that his response to the violence
0:03:33 > 0:03:35in Charlottesville, and that show of strength, to many people
0:03:35 > 0:03:38a extremely disturbing show of strength, by neo-Nazis and white
0:03:38 > 0:03:39supremacists in Virginia.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42Donald Trump's reaction to that, and the violence that we saw,
0:03:42 > 0:03:46was to talk about blame on many sides.
0:03:46 > 0:03:47Yeah.
0:03:47 > 0:03:51You condemned that.
0:03:51 > 0:03:53Yeah, I mean, it was an opportunity missed.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56He should have come down hard on neo-Nazis and white supremacists.
0:03:56 > 0:03:59You know, the left has a violent element to it,
0:03:59 > 0:04:02but it was a moment for him to basically reset some
0:04:02 > 0:04:04of the things he said in the campaign.
0:04:04 > 0:04:05But isn't that the point,
0:04:05 > 0:04:08that he, right now, looks like a President who is polarising
0:04:08 > 0:04:12the United States in a way that we have not seen before?
0:04:12 > 0:04:15I would say the country's been polarised for quite a while,
0:04:15 > 0:04:16just like your country.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18Brexit is the result of disenchantment with globalisation.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23There would be no Donald Trump if Obama had brought us together.
0:04:23 > 0:04:25So the bottom line is, there is a divide.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27But here's the good news.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29Every corner of the political spectrum pushed back
0:04:29 > 0:04:34against President Trump's statements.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37It is incumbent upon me and others to respect his victory,
0:04:37 > 0:04:39but also to push back when we have to.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42Well, I find that interesting, the way you couch that.
0:04:42 > 0:04:43But let's be honest.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45At one point you called him a jackass.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48More recently you've said, I like the guy, and he has
0:04:48 > 0:04:49a unique personality.
0:04:49 > 0:04:51So let's cut to the chase here.
0:04:51 > 0:04:54John McCain, your good friend, says it is time for Republicans
0:04:54 > 0:04:56on Capitol Hill to stand up to Donald Trump.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59We are not his subordinates, McCain says.
0:04:59 > 0:05:08So are you now prepared to stand up to Donald Trump?
0:05:08 > 0:05:11Absolutely, I mean, when I think he's wrong.
0:05:11 > 0:05:15John McCain and I came out very hard against the first travel ban,
0:05:15 > 0:05:18because I thought it was basically a ban on a person's religion.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21The Russian sanctions, I authored the Russian sanctions.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24I was the primary author of the sanctions against
0:05:24 > 0:05:27Putin's Russia, and Trump didn't like but we did,
0:05:28 > 0:05:31but we got 98-2.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34So I think he's bizarre when it comes to Russia, quite frankly.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36Bizarre?
0:05:36 > 0:05:38Yeah, bizarre feelings about Putin.
0:05:38 > 0:05:40I can't understand it, given what Putin has done.
0:05:40 > 0:05:44But at the end of the day, Congress has charted its own path
0:05:44 > 0:05:45on foreign policy.
0:05:45 > 0:05:47So the most important relationship that the United States has
0:05:47 > 0:05:50in the world, that is with the other key nuclear power, Russia,
0:05:51 > 0:05:53you are saying you believe the commander-in-chief's behaviour
0:05:53 > 0:05:54and policy is bizarre?
0:05:54 > 0:05:57It's not about his behaviour and policy, as much as,
0:05:57 > 0:05:59why doesn't he see Putin like we do?
0:05:59 > 0:06:01I mean, most of us, Republicans and Democrats,
0:06:01 > 0:06:03believe that Putin did interfere in our election.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06He's trying to destabilise democracy all over the world,
0:06:06 > 0:06:10and I hope that President Trump seems to be getting the message.
0:06:10 > 0:06:14He's kicked Russian diplomats out of consulates in California.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17He's beginning to understand that Putin's not his friend.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20But I don't blame President Trump for trying to have a good
0:06:20 > 0:06:24relationship with adversaries, but it's clear to me
0:06:25 > 0:06:27that he was trying to excuse behaviour -
0:06:27 > 0:06:38Putin's behaviour, in a way that I feel uncomfortable with.
0:06:38 > 0:06:40Well, we'll come back to Russia later.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43But just sticking with domestic policy for a little bit longer,
0:06:43 > 0:06:47if you say, yes, like my friend McCain, I am going to stand up
0:06:47 > 0:06:51to Trump, it seems to me that US politics is heading for a car crash
0:06:51 > 0:06:52very quickly.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54Because Donald Trump has said, for a start,
0:06:54 > 0:06:57I am going to build that wall with Mexico, and the Congress
0:06:57 > 0:07:00is going to pay for it, and unless they get quick
0:07:00 > 0:07:03about paying for it now, I'm going to basically
0:07:03 > 0:07:04shut down the government.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07Well, I think he said a couple of days ago he took that back.
0:07:08 > 0:07:10We're not going to build a 2,200-mile wall.
0:07:10 > 0:07:11A 2,200-mile wall not necessary.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15It would stop the flow of commerce, you would have to take people's
0:07:15 > 0:07:16property away from them.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19There are parts of the border that you don't need a wall,
0:07:19 > 0:07:20other parts you do.
0:07:20 > 0:07:23So we are going to secure the border but nobody believes
0:07:23 > 0:07:25we are going to have a 2,200-mile wall.
0:07:25 > 0:07:26We're not.
0:07:26 > 0:07:28And nobody believes Mexico is going to pay for it,
0:07:28 > 0:07:29because they won't.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32It is not just about the wall, though.
0:07:32 > 0:07:34Trump is at loggerheads with Congress about raising the debt
0:07:34 > 0:07:38ceiling, it looks like there might be a big argument about the budget.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41He is at war with the Republican head of the Senate, Mitch McConnell.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44He is pretty much at war with the Republican leader
0:07:44 > 0:07:45in the house, Paul Ryan.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48Wherever you look, Donald Trump is treating your party,
0:07:48 > 0:07:50which is in the majority on Capitol Hill, with contempt.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52I think that's probably why he won.
0:07:52 > 0:07:54He shows contempt for the system.
0:07:54 > 0:07:56Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan, Lindsey Graham, John McCain,
0:07:56 > 0:07:58in the eyes of many, are the system.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00And you suck it up?
0:08:00 > 0:08:08Not suck it up, I understand it.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11Again, I'm not going to vote for a 2,200-mile wall that
0:08:11 > 0:08:12makes no sense.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14Are we heading potentially for a shutdown of government?
0:08:14 > 0:08:17I think we're headed for what we have been having
0:08:17 > 0:08:19for years in Congress, the ability to govern
0:08:19 > 0:08:20is very much lost.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22Here's what I think will happen.
0:08:22 > 0:08:24He should be upset with the Republican Congress.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27Didn't we promise for seven years to repeal and replace Obamacare?
0:08:27 > 0:08:29Now we're in charge, the President says,
0:08:29 > 0:08:31where's the bill to repeal and replace Obamacare?
0:08:31 > 0:08:34I just went all over South Carolina and people are saying,
0:08:34 > 0:08:36we put you there for a reason.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39You got the Senate, you got the White House,
0:08:39 > 0:08:42are you telling me that after seven years of "we're going to repeal
0:08:42 > 0:08:44and replace Obamacare", you can't get it done?
0:08:44 > 0:08:45Guess what?
0:08:45 > 0:08:46People should be mad at us.
0:08:46 > 0:08:48If I may say so...
0:08:48 > 0:08:50What a terrible indictment of all of you, the President,
0:08:50 > 0:08:53you in the Senate, the Republicans in the House, as well.
0:08:54 > 0:08:56You control, as a party, all of the key institutions,
0:08:56 > 0:08:59and you are telling me that you can't see any change,
0:08:59 > 0:09:02that gridlock is still the order of the day.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04No, I think we will have some breakthroughs.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06The Republicans ran on a platform of repealing and replacing
0:09:06 > 0:09:08Obamacare, cutting taxes, rebuilding the military,
0:09:08 > 0:09:09very specific things.
0:09:09 > 0:09:11If we don't deliver, we're going to lose.
0:09:11 > 0:09:16So our fates are tied together.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20You're trying to say, well, will you stand up to Trump?
0:09:20 > 0:09:22What he may not understand is, as I go, he goes.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25If we jointly do not repeal and replace Obamacare,
0:09:25 > 0:09:28if we can't have a tax cut, then he's going to lose,
0:09:28 > 0:09:30and we're all going to lose.
0:09:30 > 0:09:31Let's move onto other matters.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35You have made it quite plain that you have no doubt that Russia
0:09:35 > 0:09:36meddled, interfered in the Presidential campaign?
0:09:37 > 0:09:38Zero doubt. Zero doubt.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41So Donald Trump is still telling the American people that it is fake
0:09:41 > 0:09:44news, it is a hoax, it is something being manipulated
0:09:44 > 0:09:45by the mainstream media.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47So here's the thing.
0:09:47 > 0:09:49Why do you think Donald Trump still insists
0:09:49 > 0:09:51there is no story here?
0:09:51 > 0:09:53I just think he believes it undercuts his victory.
0:09:53 > 0:09:55That, if you say that Russia was involved,
0:09:55 > 0:09:57somehow it affects his legitimacy.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00The question is, did he and his team receive help from the Russians?
0:10:00 > 0:10:07Collusion? Yes, collusion.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10I don't know the answer to that, but we will find out.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12And you are determined to find out?
0:10:12 > 0:10:15Absolutely, because we are a rule of law nation.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19And you sit on the Senate Judiciary Committee?
0:10:19 > 0:10:22I sit on the Senate Judiciary Committee, I'm chairman
0:10:22 > 0:10:23of the subcommittee overseeing this.
0:10:23 > 0:10:25I will go wherever the facts take us.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29You appear to believe there is or has been a serious
0:10:29 > 0:10:31danger of the Trump administration seeking to fire Robert Mueller,
0:10:31 > 0:10:32the Special Counsel.
0:10:32 > 0:10:34I don't know what Trump was thinking.
0:10:34 > 0:10:36I know some press reports were unnerving.
0:10:36 > 0:10:37There's no reason to fire Mueller.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39If you can find one, let me know.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43But we introduced legislation to make sure that he can't be fired
0:10:43 > 0:10:44without judicial review.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46That, in a sense, is what I'm pointing to.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48You would not have introduced that legislation unless you,
0:10:49 > 0:10:52Lindsey Graham, feared there was a serious possibility
0:10:52 > 0:10:57that this White House was going to try to remove
0:10:57 > 0:11:00the special counsel, which appears to be ramping up
0:11:00 > 0:11:01the investigation into this allegation of collusion?
0:11:01 > 0:11:04You have no faith in your President on this?
0:11:04 > 0:11:08It's not that I don't have faith in him.
0:11:08 > 0:11:10It's about whether or not people have faith in the system.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14I don't like the fact that Russia interfered in our elections.
0:11:14 > 0:11:19I have no evidence of collusion yet between Trump and the Russians
0:11:19 > 0:11:23and if there's some to come about, it will come about.
0:11:23 > 0:11:26Well, you don't know any more than I do about what Robert Mueller
0:11:26 > 0:11:28is finding, because he hasn't told us.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30But I think it is fair to say...
0:11:30 > 0:11:34My job is to make sure he can look and not worry.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37Exactly, and is it not fair to say that, given they have empanelled
0:11:37 > 0:11:40the grand jury, we understand noe that he's working with prosecutors
0:11:40 > 0:11:42in New York, as well.
0:11:42 > 0:11:43He is ramping up this investigation.
0:11:43 > 0:11:47It seems to be that he is ramping it up and he is taking it serious
0:11:48 > 0:11:49and it will go where it goes.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53And I have no idea where this thing is going to go.
0:11:53 > 0:11:57I do know this - it is important that he be able to do his job
0:11:57 > 0:11:58without any political interference.
0:11:58 > 0:12:01And most Republicans are behind me in that regard.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03Do you see this as the most ethically challenged administration
0:12:03 > 0:12:07that you have seen, in your political lifetime?
0:12:07 > 0:12:10I can't tell you I haven't seen a higher crime or misdemeanour
0:12:10 > 0:12:12committed by the President.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16The people around him are some of the best people in the world.
0:12:16 > 0:12:21About business dealings, there's some things with the Trump
0:12:21 > 0:12:24family I think Mueller may look at.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28But all I'll say about the President,
0:12:28 > 0:12:31when you look at the people he's picked to run this government,
0:12:31 > 0:12:32pretty damn good.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35You have talked about your confidence in the national security
0:12:35 > 0:12:36team.
0:12:36 > 0:12:40Does it sit easily with you that his daughter and his son-in-law are key
0:12:40 > 0:12:43players in the inner, inner, inner circle in the White House?
0:12:43 > 0:12:43Yeah, it does.
0:12:43 > 0:12:47Because I've met them both and I like them and they have a more
0:12:47 > 0:12:49traditional, centrist view of political issues.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52How about this, Jennifer Rubin, a writer in the Washington Post,
0:12:52 > 0:12:53she recently wrote this.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56Trump continues to receive money through his businesses from foreign
0:12:56 > 0:12:59governments, be they in the form of bookings into his hotel
0:12:59 > 0:13:01or benefits derived from expedited trademarks, and this,
0:13:01 > 0:13:05she writes, is the essence of financial corruption.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09Yeah, what I would say is that Mueller will look at whatever
0:13:09 > 0:13:10he needs to look at.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13I think the ethics folks are looking at the Trump hotel deal.
0:13:13 > 0:13:15Does that sit easily with you?
0:13:15 > 0:13:17Well, I don't know what she's talking about.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20I don't know what allegations she is making.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24Well, what we know is Donald Trump has not divested of his key assets,
0:13:24 > 0:13:30including hotels, including a hotel in Washington where world leaders
0:13:30 > 0:13:33tend to stay when they are coming to visit the administration.
0:13:33 > 0:13:36Right, I don't think he gets any personal financial benefit.
0:13:36 > 0:13:37I don't know.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40To me, that is something we have a system to look at.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43Right, well, one could say that was an overlap of domestic
0:13:43 > 0:13:45and foreign affairs, given the Russian involvement.
0:13:45 > 0:13:47Let's now get to straight out foreign affairs.
0:13:47 > 0:13:48Let's start with North Korea.
0:13:48 > 0:13:52How close are we to seeing a war on the Korean peninsula?
0:13:52 > 0:13:54That's a good question.
0:13:54 > 0:13:55Let's look at it this way.
0:13:55 > 0:13:58That's a really good question and I worry about this a lot.
0:13:58 > 0:13:59How close are we?
0:14:00 > 0:14:02Here's what I think you need to understand.
0:14:02 > 0:14:04The President's made a decision that's fundamentally different
0:14:04 > 0:14:05than in the past.
0:14:05 > 0:14:07Every President before him has tried sanctions, cajoling.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10We sent Dennis Rodman over, I can't believe that didn't work!
0:14:10 > 0:14:19You know, Madeleine Albright danced with the guy's dad.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21We're tough, we're nice, we're tough, we're nice,
0:14:21 > 0:14:23and they get more bombs and bigger missiles.
0:14:23 > 0:14:27I think Trump has made a decision that I'm not going to let this
0:14:27 > 0:14:31programme mature to the point that they can have a missile to hit
0:14:31 > 0:14:34America with, a missile with a nuclear weapon on top.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36So he says that he would use military force to prevent
0:14:36 > 0:14:38the marriage of those two concepts.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41You make it sound as though there is something clear,
0:14:41 > 0:14:42coherent, easily understandable about the administration's
0:14:42 > 0:14:43Korea policy.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47But what we saw in recent days was a Trump tweet saying outright
0:14:47 > 0:14:49that talking is not the answer to this problem.
0:14:49 > 0:14:51Followed, within hours, with the man that you say
0:14:51 > 0:14:53you respect so highly, the Defence Secretary,
0:14:53 > 0:14:56James Mattis, saying, we are never out of diplomatic solutions.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58So which is it?
0:14:58 > 0:14:58Sir
0:14:58 > 0:15:01I think it is what I just said.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03We haven't reached the end of the diplomatic road.
0:15:03 > 0:15:05I don't even think we're reasonably close.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09But the road of diplomacy has to be married up with the road
0:15:09 > 0:15:10of missile development.
0:15:10 > 0:15:12So here's what I'm trying to tell you.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14You asked me how close are we?
0:15:14 > 0:15:16I don't know how close they are to perfecting
0:15:16 > 0:15:18the technology that would put America
0:15:18 > 0:15:19in the crosshairs of Kim Jong-un.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21So, when does the diplomatic road end?
0:15:21 > 0:15:24When that marriage is on the brink of happening.
0:15:25 > 0:15:27But Lindsey Graham's view is that, yes, in the end,
0:15:27 > 0:15:30there is on the table the possibility of an American first
0:15:30 > 0:15:37military strike against North Korea?
0:15:37 > 0:15:39Absolutely.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42As a matter of fact, I think if something doesn't change,
0:15:42 > 0:15:43it is inevitable.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46Because they seem to be hell-bent on developing technology in defiance
0:15:46 > 0:15:50of what President Trump said he would allow to happen.
0:15:50 > 0:15:56The thing is, you know that however it works,
0:15:56 > 0:15:58hundreds of thousands of civilians are going to,
0:15:58 > 0:16:01in all likelihood, die as a result of that American strike.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04So here is what I'm trying to say. Do you not...
0:16:04 > 0:16:06It seems like you don't care that much?
0:16:06 > 0:16:08Because they're not going to die in America?
0:16:09 > 0:16:10You know what I'm going to quote.
0:16:10 > 0:16:14You said not so long ago that if there is going to be a war
0:16:14 > 0:16:17to stop him, Kim Jong-un, it will be over there.
0:16:17 > 0:16:20If thousands die, they're going to die over there,
0:16:20 > 0:16:22they're not going to die here.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25The President has told that to my face.
0:16:25 > 0:16:27You and the President don't care that much?
0:16:27 > 0:16:29I think that is pretty unfair.
0:16:29 > 0:16:38If you left it up to me, I wouldn't be at war with anybody.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42I have got a real problem with a man who threatens my country
0:16:42 > 0:16:43with a nuclear weapon attack.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45I have got a real problem with that.
0:16:45 > 0:16:49I have got a problem with what he does to his own people.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52But I am not trying to change the regime.
0:16:52 > 0:16:53I'm not trying to unify the peninsula.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56Neither is the President.
0:16:56 > 0:16:59We're not out for regime change, we're not out
0:16:59 > 0:17:00to reunify the peninsula.
0:17:00 > 0:17:02We're out to stop a threat to the American homeland
0:17:02 > 0:17:03that is unacceptable.
0:17:03 > 0:17:07But you can imagine a first strike war, a US first strike war
0:17:07 > 0:17:10in which hundreds of thousands of Korean civilians on both sides
0:17:10 > 0:17:23of the border die and it would be in America's interests?
0:17:23 > 0:17:26It would be my last resort, but please understand
0:17:26 > 0:17:27what I am saying.
0:17:27 > 0:17:29I care a lot about anybody dying anywhere.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32But the duty of the American President is to protect America.
0:17:32 > 0:17:33And our allies.
0:17:33 > 0:17:35We have troops in Korea there to defend Korea
0:17:35 > 0:17:37and to defend our interest.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40I am 100% certain that if Kim Jong-un continues to develop
0:17:40 > 0:17:42missile technology that can hit America, if diplomacy fails
0:17:42 > 0:17:45to stop him, there will be an attack by the United States
0:17:45 > 0:17:46against his weapon systems.
0:17:46 > 0:17:50I am assuming the worst, I am assuming we drop one bomb
0:17:50 > 0:17:52and he fires at South Korea and maybe Japan.
0:17:52 > 0:17:54Let me tell you how the war ends.
0:17:54 > 0:17:56It ends with his utter destruction.
0:17:56 > 0:17:58Thousands of people could be killed or maimed.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01There is a lot at stake here.
0:18:01 > 0:18:03And let me ask you, why would the world,
0:18:03 > 0:18:05given his track record, the North Korean leader,
0:18:05 > 0:18:09allow him to get a hydrogen bomb with a missile to deliver it
0:18:09 > 0:18:10anywhere in the world?
0:18:10 > 0:18:12Why would we do that?
0:18:12 > 0:18:16Before we end, a quick tour of other key foreign policy issues.
0:18:16 > 0:18:17That's a pretty good one there!
0:18:17 > 0:18:20That's important and that's why we have spent some time on it,
0:18:20 > 0:18:26but on other issues, whether it be Trump's policy
0:18:26 > 0:18:28on Nato, where he talked about obsolescence
0:18:28 > 0:18:30but he doesn't do that any more.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33Whether it be on Russia, where Trump clearly wanted to warm
0:18:33 > 0:18:36up relations with Putin but Congress imposed new sanctions and Trump very
0:18:36 > 0:18:38reluctantly had to sign the bill.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41One can look across the piece and see that Donald Trump's
0:18:41 > 0:18:44instincts in many foreign policy areas are running up against,
0:18:44 > 0:18:54one could put it, the pragmatic establishment in Washington, DC.
0:18:54 > 0:18:56Is Trump losing?
0:18:56 > 0:18:58I think reality is taking over.
0:18:58 > 0:19:03When you are a candidate you can say anything,
0:19:03 > 0:19:07like I'm going to build a wall and Mexico will pay for it.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09When you're the President in a democratic society,
0:19:09 > 0:19:11it's not so easy to do.
0:19:11 > 0:19:13When you're a candidate, it's the longest war in history,
0:19:13 > 0:19:15I'm going to pull out of Afghanistan.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18And then the generals tell you what will happen
0:19:18 > 0:19:19if you do pull out.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22So the reason you should be somewhat optimistic about President Trump
0:19:22 > 0:19:25is he has shown the ability to adjust policy.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28He took the campaign rhetoric against Afghanistan and he ran hard
0:19:28 > 0:19:30against getting out and I hit him hard.
0:19:30 > 0:19:33And now he has adjusted his policies in a reasonable way.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36I think he has taken the right position on North Korea.
0:19:36 > 0:19:38When Steve Bannon, the noted "American nationalist",
0:19:38 > 0:19:41who was behind many of the policy positions during the campaign that
0:19:41 > 0:19:45you have just outlined, when he left the White House a short
0:19:45 > 0:19:47time ago, did you dance a little jig of delight?
0:19:47 > 0:19:51I didn't dance a jig of delight but I think his view of the world
0:19:51 > 0:19:54is very dangerous and let me tell you about his views,
0:19:54 > 0:19:56it's a false sense of security.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58Leave them alone, they'll leave you alone.
0:19:58 > 0:19:59America first.
0:19:59 > 0:20:01Remember that statement from the '20s and '30s?
0:20:01 > 0:20:02Europe - that's your war.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05We are not going to be drawn into European wars.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08As Hitler marches through Europe and this little island called
0:20:08 > 0:20:13Britain is the last line of defence, the day before Pearl Harbor
0:20:13 > 0:20:18the polling in America was 70% stay out.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20So this whole isolationist, America first, leave the world
0:20:20 > 0:20:25alone, I reject that completely.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27Yes, but Senator Graham, going back to the beginning
0:20:27 > 0:20:30of our conversation, the problem you've got is that many
0:20:30 > 0:20:32Europeans believe that is what they see in America today.
0:20:32 > 0:20:36You saw Angela Merkel a few months ago after a G7 meeting say
0:20:36 > 0:20:40to her people and to Europe, we cannot any more rely
0:20:40 > 0:20:43on traditional partners.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46It was clear she meant the United States and perhaps
0:20:46 > 0:20:47Britain as well.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50And she said, we have to accept our fate in Europe
0:20:50 > 0:20:51is in our hands.
0:20:51 > 0:20:55A clear indication there is a bigger rift than we have seen for a very
0:20:55 > 0:20:58long time between Merkel, the rest of continental Europe
0:20:58 > 0:21:00and the United States.
0:21:00 > 0:21:02And if it grows it could be dangerous.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05Trump's inaugural speech came out of the '30s.
0:21:05 > 0:21:07It was very dark.
0:21:07 > 0:21:09It scared me, quite frankly.
0:21:09 > 0:21:12His speech in Poland about how we're all in it together,
0:21:12 > 0:21:15we have to defend our values against those who would destroy
0:21:15 > 0:21:18them, the benefits of Nato.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20Of all the organisations in the history of man,
0:21:20 > 0:21:23Nato has stood the test of time, I am an internationalist,
0:21:23 > 0:21:31I hope the American union survives, I hope we can
0:21:31 > 0:21:34I hope the European union survives, I hope we can
0:21:34 > 0:21:34get more contributions...
0:21:34 > 0:21:38I think what Trump is trying to do is say, you know,
0:21:38 > 0:21:40to our European allies, you're not carrying your fair share
0:21:40 > 0:21:43when it comes to defence spending, and they're not.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45That's different than saying the alliance has not been official.
0:21:45 > 0:21:49A final thought for you, it goes back to a couple of things
0:21:49 > 0:21:50we have talked about.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52This unfolding investigation into the Russian meddling
0:21:52 > 0:21:54in the election and potential alleged collusion involving
0:21:54 > 0:21:55the Trump campaign.
0:21:55 > 0:21:57That could be enormously damaging and serious
0:21:57 > 0:22:01for the President himself.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04The other reality is that his relationship with some of the key
0:22:04 > 0:22:07players in your own party on Capitol Hill is pretty poisonous.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10Those two things combined have led people to debate whether this
0:22:10 > 0:22:12President is going to see through his four-year term.
0:22:12 > 0:22:17Do you think he will?
0:22:18 > 0:22:20Yeah.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22I don't know what the investigation holds.
0:22:22 > 0:22:26I have seen nothing to the higher crime or misdemeanour yet.
0:22:26 > 0:22:28We'll see what happens.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30Here's what I would tell my European friends.
0:22:30 > 0:22:35A judge, with the stroke of a pen, shut down the travel ban.
0:22:35 > 0:22:37And that held.
0:22:37 > 0:22:38Congress, over the President's objections, said we're
0:22:38 > 0:22:41going to punish Russia for interfering in our elections.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44And we did.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47There will be times when we work with him, there will be times
0:22:47 > 0:22:50when we say, Mr President, what you said about Charlottesville
0:22:50 > 0:22:51was fundamentally wrong.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55That's just the way the game is going to be and it has been that
0:22:55 > 0:22:58way for quite a long time in America.
0:22:58 > 0:23:00I want to leave you with a sense of optimism.
0:23:00 > 0:23:03The President has adjusted policies when it made sense,
0:23:03 > 0:23:05the people around him are the best I have seen
0:23:05 > 0:23:07on the national security front.
0:23:07 > 0:23:10They have a view of the world that I think is healthy
0:23:10 > 0:23:12for the President to hear.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14Mr Bannon's view is shared by many Americans.
0:23:14 > 0:23:18I just think, in the end, America is destined to lead the world.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21When we're not around, things usually go bad.
0:23:21 > 0:23:23Now, here's the goal.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26For me to understand what got him elected and for him
0:23:26 > 0:23:30to understand my concerns about his agenda.
0:23:30 > 0:23:32One example.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35He cut the State Department's budget by 29% and increased
0:23:35 > 0:23:38the military dramatically.
0:23:38 > 0:23:40I told him, Mr President, there is no more hawkish guy
0:23:41 > 0:23:42on Capitol Hill than Lindsey Graham.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47I'm glad you increase the military budget but if you take diplomacy
0:23:47 > 0:23:50and developmental aid and foreign assistance off
0:23:50 > 0:23:52the table, soft power.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55We can't defend America through military might alone.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59We have to build up the lives of others to beat the terrorists,
0:23:59 > 0:24:01not just kill terrorists.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03And that's the conflict I have with him.
0:24:03 > 0:24:05Does he understand the limits of military power?
0:24:05 > 0:24:08Does he understand the value of soft power?
0:24:08 > 0:24:11The power of building up people's economies.
0:24:11 > 0:24:15A schoolhouse for a poor young girl would do more damage to the Taliban
0:24:15 > 0:24:17than any bomb you can drop on their head.
0:24:17 > 0:24:18We have to end there.
0:24:19 > 0:24:21Senator Lindsay Graham, thank you for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:21 > 0:24:23Thank you very much.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50After a weekend of two halves, this week's weather takes us
0:24:50 > 0:24:54on a little bit of a journey that things are a little bit quieter
0:24:54 > 0:24:55for this time of the week.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58I will start with a few images from Sunday's weather.