:00:00. > :00:09.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:10. > :00:17.In the United States, the sheriff has always had a special
:00:18. > :00:20.status as the defender of their community,
:00:21. > :00:24.the embodiment of law, justice and the American way.
:00:25. > :00:28.But sheriffs can be politically controversial figures too.
:00:29. > :00:31.None more so than my guest today, Joe Arpaio, sheriff
:00:32. > :00:40.of Maricopa County Arizona for 24 years until 2016.
:00:41. > :00:42.A self-styled tough guy, convicted of criminal
:00:43. > :00:44.contempt and controversially pardoned by President Donald Trump
:00:45. > :01:17.Did Joe Arpaio betray the American values he pledged to uphold?
:01:18. > :01:35.Thanks for having me. It's great to have you on the show. Of course you
:01:36. > :01:40.are not longer wearing the Sheriff's badge after nearly a quarter of the
:01:41. > :01:44.century. Is it now time for you to acknowledge the mistakes he made
:01:45. > :01:53.while in office? Well, you know I'm a big Frank Sinatra, My Way the
:01:54. > :01:59.song, he always says regrets I've had a few. If you talk about
:02:00. > :02:03.mistakes, everyone makes mistakes. By the way, I want to thank your
:02:04. > :02:10.country. You mentioned the elected Sheriff, which originated years and
:02:11. > :02:16.years ago. It came to the US, the Western Sheriff. We now have 3000.
:02:17. > :02:21.Chief law enforcement officer for the county. So I am very proud to
:02:22. > :02:26.have spent 24 years serving the people. No one would doubt your
:02:27. > :02:31.success in terms of re-elections. I believe you were re-elected five
:02:32. > :02:36.times. But nobody in Maricopa County chose you, elected you, to violate
:02:37. > :02:39.the constitution, but that is clearly what you ended up doing and
:02:40. > :02:47.I'm just wondering whether you are prepared to say sorry for that now.
:02:48. > :02:53.I did not violate the constitution. It is an issue that a judge decided
:02:54. > :03:00.to repeat or report during a trial, so we are appealing that. This is a
:03:01. > :03:05.misdemeanour. At the same -- the same time you can get for barking
:03:06. > :03:14.dogs. It took eight years when Obama and the attorney general went after
:03:15. > :03:24.me. After 60 days taking over. Here we are at the end on a misdemeanour,
:03:25. > :03:28.a contempt of court, and this chapter is not over yet, believe me,
:03:29. > :03:33.because the truth will come out very soon. Right. But when you suggest to
:03:34. > :03:38.me that there's something political at the heart of this, I would simply
:03:39. > :03:43.reply to you that the key judgement in case was surely that from the
:03:44. > :03:49.district court in 2013, handed down by judge Murray Snow, unknown
:03:50. > :03:53.Conservative, appointed to his post by George W Bush, and he is the one
:03:54. > :04:05.who says the evidence clearly demonstrates that your office, the
:04:06. > :04:11.Sheriff's office in Maricopa County, said what happened was
:04:12. > :04:16.unconstitutional. Well in that... After that there was no violation.
:04:17. > :04:23.Prior to that we have the authority in the US government to act as
:04:24. > :04:30.immigration officers. So that was his decision and then he wanted to
:04:31. > :04:34.make sure that he would do everything to get me out of office,
:04:35. > :04:38.according to his wife. There's so much involved in this that I'm not
:04:39. > :04:44.going to talk about it now. But you'll be hearing about the real
:04:45. > :04:49.story about the judicial system and how they went after this Sheriff,
:04:50. > :04:55.took them eight years on a contempt of court for a small crime... Hang
:04:56. > :05:02.on a minute, Sheriff, if I can still call you Sheriff, I think I can.
:05:03. > :05:05.Hang on a minute. As the chief lawman in Maricopa County I can't
:05:06. > :05:09.imagine what possessed you to consistently flout the order of the
:05:10. > :05:15.court and to end up in contempt. You were the lawman. How could you defy
:05:16. > :05:19.the authority of a court? First of all, there was no intention. That's
:05:20. > :05:26.a civil case you are talking about with Snow. The conviction had to do
:05:27. > :05:34.with a criminal misdemeanour charge. Think of that. One judge refused to
:05:35. > :05:39.give me a jury. A wrong charge. I can go on and on. On contempt of
:05:40. > :05:43.court. It had nothing to do with racial profile or anything regarding
:05:44. > :05:50.the profiling, if you want to call it that. I do... I do want to call
:05:51. > :05:54.it... I do want to call it profiling because a part of this case, for
:05:55. > :06:00.those who don't know, are the orders you gave your men to specifically
:06:01. > :06:04.target Latinos when it came to police stops on the basis that you
:06:05. > :06:09.were looking for it seems in legal immigrants, in a way that the courts
:06:10. > :06:16.decided was completely in contravention of the constitution.
:06:17. > :06:24.Many people in your own County saw your activities as fundamentally
:06:25. > :06:31.racist. That's not true. When you say... Either way, I keep getting
:06:32. > :06:36.re-elected so evidently the people think I'm doing a job and defending
:06:37. > :06:43.them and going after the criminals. I'm not going to get into everything
:06:44. > :06:48.on this case, let me say this: We had the authority under the federal
:06:49. > :06:52.government to act as immigration officers. We don't just pick up
:06:53. > :06:56.people on the street because of the colour of their skin. When you
:06:57. > :07:02.arrest people on any charge and they happen to be here illegally, of
:07:03. > :07:06.course we would turn them over to the government, where they would in
:07:07. > :07:10.most cases be deported. You were convicted... I'm not going to keep
:07:11. > :07:15.talking about this case because it is not over yet. I am appealing this
:07:16. > :07:24.misdemeanour conviction of contempt of court and then I will be speaking
:07:25. > :07:27.out so you and everybody else will know how a judicial system is
:07:28. > :07:33.somewhat corrupt. When you mention the judge was conservative,
:07:34. > :07:39.appointed by Bush, actually that was at the tail end, recommended by a
:07:40. > :07:46.certain US Senator, I don't care... If I may say so, the point surely is
:07:47. > :07:50.this. You have a criminal record now. You say you are peeling and of
:07:51. > :07:55.course you have been pardoned. But I want to get to the heart of the
:07:56. > :07:59.matter, which is the impact of that part of which was issued by Donald
:08:00. > :08:02.Trump a couple of months ago. Did you see that as payback for the
:08:03. > :08:08.staunch support that you gave to Donald Trump from the very beginning
:08:09. > :08:16.of his campaign? I did not ask for the pardon, he decided to do it when
:08:17. > :08:24.he heard the fax of this case. I welcome that pardon. I was with him
:08:25. > :08:28.from day one, July, 2015, and I'll be with him to the end. It had
:08:29. > :08:34.nothing to do with the pardon. That was a right end he did. I'm not
:08:35. > :08:39.guilty. -- thing he did. I will continue to fight. You say I have a
:08:40. > :08:46.criminal record. I do because of the latest decision of another judge on
:08:47. > :08:54.that contempt of court, so we'll appeal that. Sheriff, have you
:08:55. > :08:58.paused for a second is to consider the impact of the pardon on some of
:08:59. > :09:01.the people who were victimised by your officers during that period
:09:02. > :09:05.when you were the Sheriff of Maricopa County? How do you think
:09:06. > :09:14.they feel about your part? Ioanna how they feel. -- I don't know.
:09:15. > :09:20.There are those who believe that people can come into this country
:09:21. > :09:26.illegally and get by with it, so maybe we should also look at all
:09:27. > :09:31.those hundreds and thousands that have violated the constitution, have
:09:32. > :09:37.come into this country illegally with a high percentage committing
:09:38. > :09:42.other crimes and look at that. When you say... Wait a minute. When you
:09:43. > :09:47.say how the victims feel, where are all the victims? And see... I didn't
:09:48. > :09:52.see any victims go to court. I will tell you about one victim.
:09:53. > :09:58.One man who lives in Phoenix, he was a plaintiff in the ACLU class-action
:09:59. > :10:04.lawsuit against Maricopa County. After you are pardoned he said this.
:10:05. > :10:08.I pardoning him, that is you, Trump is saying to the nation that it is
:10:09. > :10:13.OK to insult another brace or another culture. Instead of making
:10:14. > :10:19.America great, Trump is making America a lot more divided, just
:10:20. > :10:23.like Joe Arpaio did here in Phoenix. Well, when you talk about one person
:10:24. > :10:28.or to people who complained, I'm not going to get into that case on a
:10:29. > :10:32.probable cause, but when you have one or two, where is the uproar?
:10:33. > :10:37.Where are all the victims? Not even appearing in court. You want more.
:10:38. > :10:44.I'll give you more. The Mayor of Phoenix. You know what he said after
:10:45. > :10:49.the pardon? He says, this pardon of Arpaio was a slap in the face to the
:10:50. > :10:53.people of Maricopa County, especially the Latina community and
:10:54. > :10:57.all of those he victimised, systematically and illegally
:10:58. > :11:00.violating their civil rights. That a mayor just running for office. This
:11:01. > :11:06.is all politics, with him speaking out. He ought to worry about his
:11:07. > :11:11.police department and enforcing the law, which the Supreme Court said we
:11:12. > :11:17.can do, or law enforcement. So one of going to get into the Mayor. He
:11:18. > :11:21.is speaking out now because he wants to run for Congress. You are picking
:11:22. > :11:25.out a couple of people who made their statements for political
:11:26. > :11:29.reasons, without knowing all the facts. I'm not blaming you for that.
:11:30. > :11:34.Thanks for not blaming me. I mean, as you may recall, I came to visit
:11:35. > :11:37.you a few years ago in Maricopa County and he very kindly showed me
:11:38. > :11:44.around some of your installations, including the tent city. I put this
:11:45. > :11:47.point you. Now that you are no longer Sheriff, maybe you can
:11:48. > :11:51.reflect a little bit on some of the things you did. In 2008 you are
:11:52. > :11:57.caught on video referring to your tent city as a" concentration camp".
:11:58. > :12:04.You must regret that now? I don't regret it. I made one statement when
:12:05. > :12:08.I was leading the Italian- American club and there was a crowd of
:12:09. > :12:12.demonstrators. It was everywhere I went we had demonstrators. When you
:12:13. > :12:16.know there are many critics of yours in your own county who feel that
:12:17. > :12:20.your record is racist, to refer to your own initiative, the tent city
:12:21. > :12:31.where more than 1000 prisoners were kept and sometimes in 130 Fahrenheit
:12:32. > :12:35.heat, referring to it as a concentration camp says something
:12:36. > :12:39.about your judgement. Let me say I am very proud of the tent city that
:12:40. > :12:43.start at 34 years ago. It's been a great programme, a great deterrent,
:12:44. > :12:49.because many, many people do not violate the law here because they do
:12:50. > :12:56.not want to end up in tent city. Let me say this, including your country,
:12:57. > :13:00.in our country fighting... Fighting... Al-Sultan is fighting
:13:01. > :13:05.for our countries and they're living in tents. So when you are going to
:13:06. > :13:11.complain about convicted, they are all convicted, serving some time in
:13:12. > :13:15.tent city and we haven't had that many problems. One of the greatest
:13:16. > :13:20.programmes in this country. So a lot of people don't like it. We still
:13:21. > :13:24.get people who thanked me about it. If I may say so, you have had a lot
:13:25. > :13:31.of problems. You had a justice in part -- department investigation we
:13:32. > :13:44.-- with serious problems, including Latina people being denied basic hi
:13:45. > :13:51.-- basic services and you also had a high suicide rate in your jails. The
:13:52. > :13:57.amount of suicides as a proportion of overall debts in the jail system
:13:58. > :14:01.is extraordinary. 24%. Why do you think that was? That's all wrong.
:14:02. > :14:10.You are reading from other periodicals. You are way off base.
:14:11. > :14:15.We haven't had 24% suicides. We run a safe jail system and I'm going to
:14:16. > :14:19.tell you another thing. Probably the safest jail system in the country.
:14:20. > :14:27.When you really analyse the truth and starts. I'm quoting you stop
:14:28. > :14:33.that come from various officials apartments. Not ready for % of all
:14:34. > :14:38.prisoners, I'm saying 24% of those in your jails were said to be
:14:39. > :14:47.suicides. Are you denying that? Gyan. Of course I am. -- of course I
:14:48. > :14:55.am. They say 200 people have died or are suing me, that's not true. The
:14:56. > :15:05.Justice Department did look into it, we alleviated that problem. So if
:15:06. > :15:06.it's so bad in 24 years, how come I've never been charged with
:15:07. > :15:19.anything? Think of that. You have been, we said that already.
:15:20. > :15:23.That was contempt of court. It has nothing to do with any charges,
:15:24. > :15:30.criminal charges, that was contempt of court because the judge said I
:15:31. > :15:35.did not follow his order. That is the only charge in 24 years, a
:15:36. > :15:41.misdemeanour. Do you happen to know how much the various lawsuits and
:15:42. > :15:47.pay-outs were given during your regime as sheriff over 24 years, how
:15:48. > :15:51.much it amounted to? It came down to the taxpayer, Arizona taxpayers. Do
:15:52. > :16:01.you know what it was? I would say maybe $100 million. $140 million!
:16:02. > :16:08.OK. Duvet that over 24 years. We will put our record against any law
:16:09. > :16:13.enforcement agency in this country -- divide. This is very difficult to
:16:14. > :16:18.get the story, the true facts, out. You are hitting me with all of these
:16:19. > :16:24.questions. Unfortunately, you don't have the right information. But
:16:25. > :16:29.that's OK. I am glad to talk to you. And I am glad to talk to you as
:16:30. > :16:35.well. The thing is, Sheriff, you did literally adopt the profile of
:16:36. > :16:39.toughest sheriff in America. You also took a stand on other issues
:16:40. > :16:43.that had nothing to do with the county, and one of which is you're
:16:44. > :16:53.adamant assistance, the insistence that Barack Obama was not an
:16:54. > :16:58.American, you said he was from somewhere else. You are wrong. I
:16:59. > :17:03.never questioned where he was born. From the first day, I said we would
:17:04. > :17:09.investigate a false government document. I don't care where he came
:17:10. > :17:17.from. It is a false birth certificate, official document. Get
:17:18. > :17:22.the story straight. Not so long ago, you and your staff came out with
:17:23. > :17:26.your findings, as you put it, from a five-year investigation which you
:17:27. > :17:30.say proved Barack Obama's birth certificate was a fake, you talked
:17:31. > :17:36.about forgery on the document. My question really is, why was the
:17:37. > :17:40.sheriff of the county doing this? Because the people of this county
:17:41. > :17:45.came to me and wanted me to look into the investigation since the
:17:46. > :17:49.Federal government, no one, would develop and look at that
:17:50. > :17:54.investigation. It had to do with the election process which people do
:17:55. > :18:01.vote in this county as well for President of the United States. So I
:18:02. > :18:09.took this on struck it ago after someone with a false government
:18:10. > :18:14.document. -- simply to go after. I am not done with it yet. Would you
:18:15. > :18:21.call yourself a Republican? Are you MMA of the Republican Party? Yes, I
:18:22. > :18:24.am. It is interesting to meet. If we are going to talk about your
:18:25. > :18:28.political impact, and I think we have to, because you have chosen to
:18:29. > :18:33.be such a high-profile figure, why is it so many fellow Republicans of
:18:34. > :18:41.the highest profile, including John McCain, Paul Ryan, all of them have
:18:42. > :18:45.condemned you, and in particular, condemned Donald Trump for pardoning
:18:46. > :18:54.you? That is the political situation. You named three or four
:18:55. > :18:59.that don't like the president. OK? But what about everybody else who
:19:00. > :19:06.supports me on the party? The people of this country support me. You have
:19:07. > :19:09.a few politicians who hate the president and will say anything to
:19:10. > :19:13.embarrass the president. So let them do it. It just strikes me there
:19:14. > :19:19.might be something deeper than that going on. Is it possible that a lot
:19:20. > :19:22.of Republicans look at you and your profile, your message, and the
:19:23. > :19:31.impact, and they see someone who is toxic to their efforts to reach out
:19:32. > :19:39.to the minority and the fast-growing Latino population of the US? I don't
:19:40. > :19:45.know. You say these Republicans... I will tell you four candidates who
:19:46. > :19:52.visited the city. I have great support. People come to me every
:19:53. > :19:57.time and say run for president, including 2012. They come to me,
:19:58. > :20:01.including this time around, they want my endorsement. Inevitably, the
:20:02. > :20:06.Republican Party still wants my endorsement even after this
:20:07. > :20:16.misdemeanour conviction. They still want my endorsement. You say that...
:20:17. > :20:21.Let me quote you Mike, a Republican consultant in California, after you
:20:22. > :20:26.went to a fundraiser event in Fresno a month or so ago, I believe, this
:20:27. > :20:32.is what he said. It is an unmitigated disaster to have him as
:20:33. > :20:38.a neighbour. It is beyond belief a man convicted of racial profiling is
:20:39. > :20:42.held up as a man of note in the party of Abraham Lincoln and Ronald
:20:43. > :20:49.Reagan. 300 Republicans showed up to hear me speak. You can quote one or
:20:50. > :20:54.two of the people all you want, the majority of Republicans support me.
:20:55. > :20:59.Because you are a committed Republican. How do you think the
:21:00. > :21:02.Republican Party will reach out to this demographic, the Latino
:21:03. > :21:08.community, which even in your State of Arizona is growing exponentially.
:21:09. > :21:13.They believe that by 2023, minorities will be the majority in
:21:14. > :21:16.your own home State of Arizona. You Republicans need to address that,
:21:17. > :21:24.but it seems like you are not addressing that at all. I am a law
:21:25. > :21:29.enforcer. I spend 55 years, including working in England and
:21:30. > :21:37.Turkey as the head of Federal US enforcement. Mexico City, I was a
:21:38. > :21:45.director to be South America, Texas, Arizona. -- director. No one talks
:21:46. > :21:52.about that. I am an equal opportunity law enforcement person.
:21:53. > :21:57.I lock everyone up. Republicans, Democrats, anyone. Naturally, you
:21:58. > :22:04.have to be a politician to get elected. You have to do that. You
:22:05. > :22:08.have to wear that hat. In my 55 years, I don't care who they are,
:22:09. > :22:13.what status they have, what nationality, I enforce the laws.
:22:14. > :22:19.That is the way I have been doing it. Before we end, we are almost out
:22:20. > :22:24.of time, I need a thought from you. Your friend, Donald Trump, his
:22:25. > :22:33.approval rating is at 35%, pretty much as low as it has ever been.
:22:34. > :22:37.Approval rating, 35%. Disapproval rating, 60%. George W. Bush the
:22:38. > :22:39.other other day said this of the times were living in in Donald
:22:40. > :22:45.Trump's America. Bigotry seems emboldened and our politics more
:22:46. > :22:52.vulnerable to conspiracy theory and outright publication. Bigotry in any
:22:53. > :22:55.form, says George Bush, is blasphemy against the American creed. He is
:22:56. > :22:59.worried about Donald Trump's America. What about you? I was a
:23:00. > :23:06.campaign guide for George Bush and Mitt Romney and Rick Perry. You say
:23:07. > :23:20.his so-called polls have him at 32%. He is still higher than you
:23:21. > :23:23.profession, the media, and Congress. I think he is doing pretty good.
:23:24. > :23:27.With my point, especially with George W Bush and what he said about
:23:28. > :23:30.bigotry right now in America seeming emboldened, are you worried about
:23:31. > :23:34.what you have seen from the White House and what the tone of Donald
:23:35. > :23:41.Trump's America is? I am not worried about it. My mother and father came
:23:42. > :23:45.here from Italy, legally, of course. Immigrants made this country great
:23:46. > :23:49.and that will continue. But they must come across into our country
:23:50. > :23:56.legally a man not illegally. And that is the whole question of the
:23:57. > :24:02.fight that is going on. It is great. Let them keep coming into our
:24:03. > :24:07.country, but legally. Sheriff Joe Arpaio, thank you very much for
:24:08. > :24:18.coming onto HARDtalk we have to leave it there. Thank you.