0:00:00 > 0:00:11Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:12 > 0:00:18Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi. I am in Charleston, the
0:00:18 > 0:00:22biggest city in the State of South Carolina in the south of America.
0:00:22 > 0:00:26Today it is sunny and picturesque, but Charleston's prosperity was
0:00:26 > 0:00:30built on the back of the slave trade. Nearly half of all of
0:00:30 > 0:00:36America's slaves arrived at this port. Behind me, the slave market,
0:00:36 > 0:00:42where they were sold and bought. The struggle for freedom has been long
0:00:42 > 0:00:48and bloody. One of the most iconic fighters was Martin Luther King. My
0:00:48 > 0:00:56guest is his daughter, Dr Bernice King. What does she make of race
0:00:56 > 0:01:08relations today? Dr Bernice King, welcome to HARDtalk.Thank you for
0:01:08 > 0:01:19having me.You are CEO of The King Centre in Atlanta, Georgia, like
0:01:19 > 0:01:25your late father, Martin Luther King. You preach coexistence. When
0:01:25 > 0:01:30you look around the world today, including the United States, do you
0:01:30 > 0:01:38existence?You certainly see it in various places. When I travel around
0:01:38 > 0:01:44the nation and the world, I see it. But we have a lot of work to do in
0:01:44 > 0:01:48terms of understanding different cultures and appreciating them and
0:01:48 > 0:01:51respecting them in finding a common way to move forward in society.
0:01:51 > 0:01:57Because, you know, we have a society of laws and opportunity. That is
0:01:57 > 0:02:05where much of the friction lies. Just looking at the United States,
0:02:05 > 0:02:10Algernon Austin, an African-American, says America is
0:02:10 > 0:02:16not post- racial. He says the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s
0:02:16 > 0:02:21failed more than it succeeded. He thinks that you did not make
0:02:21 > 0:02:25progress on segregation. He says today in my city, Washington, DC,
0:02:25 > 0:02:29more than a third white, there is not a white child in any of the
0:02:29 > 0:02:37schools in mind neighbourhood.-- my. I would not say it failed. I
0:02:37 > 0:02:42would say it is a progression. Obviously, there is still
0:02:42 > 0:02:48discrimination that process, and sometimes it is difficult to prove.
0:02:48 > 0:02:54-- exists. Thank God there are laws in place now that were not when my
0:02:54 > 0:03:00father was alive. I would say someone who can define it very
0:03:00 > 0:03:07clearly, we lost his voice. No one has... No one has emerged since that
0:03:07 > 0:03:12time to really articulate the movement the way he did.Some would
0:03:12 > 0:03:18argue the Black Lives Matter campaign is trying to claim a kind
0:03:18 > 0:03:26of voice in the community. And looking at their stand, it would
0:03:26 > 0:03:29seem to suggest that they think there is actually a great or more
0:03:29 > 0:03:39that has to be achieved, for example, if you look at the Take a
0:03:39 > 0:03:42Knee Protests, it suggests there is still very overt discrimination
0:03:42 > 0:03:49going on.There is. But look at it like a glass is half empty, half
0:03:49 > 0:03:56full way. There is racism that is overt. But there is also brotherhood
0:03:56 > 0:04:01and sisterhood in some communities and in some relationships. Either
0:04:01 > 0:04:07way, I look at it through my mother's quote, struggle is a
0:04:07 > 0:04:16never-ending process. We lost ground from my father's assassination up
0:04:16 > 0:04:25until this time period because we were not vigilant.Staying with the
0:04:25 > 0:04:28Take a Knee Protest, that has given visibility to the discrimination,
0:04:28 > 0:04:38and you support it? Do you support it?I support the right to protest
0:04:38 > 0:04:45and standby your conscience. What I would like to be able to do is to
0:04:45 > 0:04:51help further that kind of movement. My father had a philosophy of
0:04:51 > 0:04:58nonviolence and supple and steps. Most people do not understand that
0:04:58 > 0:05:03there is a reason and a rationale for protest in my father's
0:05:03 > 0:05:09philosophy. I am not saying that the way people protest is wrong these
0:05:09 > 0:05:14days. But we called it direct action, designed to bring about
0:05:14 > 0:05:18attention to get back to bargaining on the negotiation table where you
0:05:18 > 0:05:25set out to work things out. David, a columnist in the New York Times, I
0:05:25 > 0:05:29believe Donald Trump is not only wrong but deliberately picking a
0:05:29 > 0:05:34fight with African Americans to appeal to his base.Nevertheless, he
0:05:34 > 0:05:40says I disagree with the kneeling protest because it alienates people
0:05:40 > 0:05:51who could be persuaded to the cause. It is difficult. You have to explain
0:05:51 > 0:06:03Dr King's philosophy. It is not a matter of whether he is wrong and
0:06:03 > 0:06:07their right and his right or their wrong and his wrong, it is about
0:06:07 > 0:06:13understanding the context in the spirit of Dr King. I think both are
0:06:13 > 0:06:16right because the negotiation and direct action are part of the
0:06:16 > 0:06:22process, but you have to note when direct action comes into play. --
0:06:22 > 0:06:30know. And so I would say that I support people's right to stand by
0:06:30 > 0:06:34their conscience and what they believe is right. My father used to
0:06:34 > 0:06:41say we have a right to protest for right.Do you think is approach is
0:06:41 > 0:06:44relevant in the 21st Century? There has always been a debate.People can
0:06:44 > 0:06:50debate until the cows come home. Truth always prevails. At the end of
0:06:50 > 0:06:54the day, it is very relevant to bite this African-American lawyer said in
0:06:54 > 0:06:59October this year I think that in this era, the idea you get in the
0:06:59 > 0:07:04moral high ground by wearing a suit and tie and being nonviolence, by
0:07:04 > 0:07:09singing church songs, that strategy is not effective in the 21st
0:07:09 > 0:07:13century. I would say he is ignorant of my father's philosophy, with all
0:07:13 > 0:07:19respect. He does not understand it. He has not studied it up it is not
0:07:19 > 0:07:26about a suit and tie. It is not about singing songs. It is direct
0:07:26 > 0:07:30confrontation in a non-violent spirit and in a manner against
0:07:30 > 0:07:34injustice and wrongdoing.Could it be a generational thing? Barbara
0:07:34 > 0:07:42Reynolds said in 2015, she was an activist in the 1960s, she says
0:07:42 > 0:07:49Black Lives Matter seems intent on rejecting proven methods. The 1960s
0:07:49 > 0:07:57method had respectability and love and unity. Spirituality as well.
0:07:57 > 0:08:05That is not a high priority for lack lives matter.I agree. -- Black
0:08:05 > 0:08:11Lives Matter.Do you think younger generations do not understand the
0:08:11 > 0:08:17spirituality?I think they are searching for it, not that they are
0:08:17 > 0:08:23not understanding it. At some point they will land on it.In a nutshell,
0:08:23 > 0:08:27what would you say his underlying philosophy is that underpins what
0:08:27 > 0:08:31you think should be done in terms of the friction?First of all, you have
0:08:31 > 0:08:36to have a commitment to reconciliation. That determines
0:08:36 > 0:08:49everything, how do you approach things. You have to have a
0:08:49 > 0:08:52commitment to win-win, not one to winning over people, but winning
0:08:52 > 0:08:56people over.Clearly, things are not going in the right wait...I
0:08:56 > 0:09:03disagree.This is what you said quite recently, we are heading to
0:09:03 > 0:09:16race riots if we are not careful, we cannot keep the divisiveness going.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20"If" is a keyword, it does not translate to "It will." We have the
0:09:20 > 0:09:23opportunity to turn things around. If people do not pause and really
0:09:23 > 0:09:34study Dr King, we could end there. He was a prophet, he told everyone
0:09:34 > 0:09:38what to do and he predicted what is going on.Going on, for example...
0:09:38 > 0:09:47If we do not actively pursue justice in any nation, tension is going to
0:09:47 > 0:09:51grow, and turmoil in the streets will persist. He said that.You are
0:09:51 > 0:09:56referring to Charlottesville, in August, for example, with a white
0:09:56 > 0:10:04nationalist rally.That is an incident of it. What is happening
0:10:04 > 0:10:13with law enforcement in the streets. All of it.Just a few miles away,
0:10:13 > 0:10:22the Reverend of the church where your father used to bridge, Take a
0:10:26 > 0:10:34-- preach, he says it is getting worse.It is in some ways. I work
0:10:34 > 0:10:39with some ministers, black and white, trying to overcome the divide
0:10:39 > 0:10:51with pastors trying to understand each other's world. They have a
0:10:51 > 0:10:56programme called Better Together. We have a talk at The King centre
0:10:56 > 0:11:16trying to get people together. My father said people hate each other
0:11:16 > 0:11:19because they fear each other, they fear because they don't know, they
0:11:19 > 0:11:22don't know because they don't communicate. We have to get to know
0:11:22 > 0:11:25each other. Part of what is happening in America is ignorance.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28Unfortunately, the media is furthering that divide. When we
0:11:28 > 0:11:35listen to staff, traditional media, social media, we react. -- stuff. We
0:11:35 > 0:11:41have to learn how to live together, as my father said.One big
0:11:41 > 0:11:46flashpoint at the moment between white nationalists and black people
0:11:46 > 0:11:52is over the symbols of the era when slavery existed. Where do you stand
0:11:52 > 0:12:06on that? Statues of Robert E Lee, the Confederate leader during the
0:12:06 > 0:12:10slave era, for example, do you think such statues should remain in place?
0:12:10 > 0:12:18I believe we are in a season where we have to bring voices together and
0:12:18 > 0:12:22find a win-win solution. I have personal beliefs. I believe those
0:12:22 > 0:12:31things long in one immense. -- belong in monuments. But we need to
0:12:31 > 0:12:36lessen the tension with those who believe in those memorials. We need
0:12:36 > 0:12:40to help them better understand why there is a reaction to those
0:12:40 > 0:12:49monuments. Their right to make different types of monuments, those
0:12:49 > 0:12:52built to honour those in the confederacy, and those built during
0:12:52 > 0:13:04the time of segregation. Bash, there are two different.Which should
0:13:04 > 0:13:12remain?You have to separate them. Some are part of the confederacy,
0:13:12 > 0:13:16some designed to send a message of oppression to African Americans at
0:13:16 > 0:13:32the time. They belong in a museum is to move forward. But in order to get
0:13:32 > 0:13:35them there, we have to talk it through and get people together
0:13:35 > 0:13:38non-violently. If you force people, it leads seeds of violence in its
0:13:38 > 0:13:42wake.You said racism needs to be dealt its final blow. Are we any
0:13:42 > 0:13:55closer to that?I think we are purging in America. Things hidden
0:13:55 > 0:13:59are coming to the surface. For too long we have let things be brushed
0:13:59 > 0:14:03under the rug. Now things are coming to a head. You have more all the
0:14:03 > 0:14:10cultural voices coming together like never before. -- multi-cultural.
0:14:10 > 0:14:14This is the first time in the history of our nation the issue of
0:14:14 > 0:14:29white supremacy and white privilege has ever been addressed or faced,
0:14:29 > 0:14:32like never before. You have white people, I know this personally, who
0:14:32 > 0:14:36are talking about white privilege like it is a problem. That has never
0:14:36 > 0:14:39happened before. People saying that white supremacy has to be done away
0:14:39 > 0:14:47with. Thank God for the consciousness they have raised.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51When did that began?I think it is the last three or four Mac years. I
0:14:51 > 0:14:54think it emerged from Black Lives Matter, it emerged from that young
0:14:54 > 0:14:59generation who rose up and brought to our consciousness... There is a
0:14:59 > 0:15:03group of individuals, America, that you still have refused to deal with,
0:15:03 > 0:15:07in terms of value.When Barack Obama gave his farewell address as
0:15:07 > 0:15:11president, he admitted America is still divided on race. He said race
0:15:11 > 0:15:15remains a potent and often divisive force in our society. Do you think
0:15:15 > 0:15:19he could have done more?I think everybody could have done more. I
0:15:19 > 0:15:23would never say that he is the only one who could have done more. All of
0:15:23 > 0:15:28us could have done more. We have not been persistent in dealing with the
0:15:28 > 0:15:32issue. We kind of touch it, and we move on to the next thing. We are
0:15:32 > 0:15:36going to... This is the issue of our day that we are going to have to
0:15:36 > 0:15:41address. And if not, you know, it is going to get worse.Riots, and more
0:15:41 > 0:15:46division?Possibly, yes. Yes.When you say President Obama could have
0:15:46 > 0:15:50done more, do you want to be more specific? What specifically more
0:15:50 > 0:15:54could he have done?Well, I mean, he could have challenged leaders in
0:15:54 > 0:15:56different sectors to create atmosphere and environments to
0:15:56 > 0:16:03begin, you know, formulating an approach to addressing it, in their
0:16:03 > 0:16:07different circles of influence. You know, I think everybody could have
0:16:07 > 0:16:12done that, you know. But I think, as the leader of the nation, he could
0:16:12 > 0:16:15have done more of that.And what about the current president?Well,
0:16:15 > 0:16:20he has had moments after moments to do it. And for whatever reason, we
0:16:20 > 0:16:24are afraid as a nation to deal with racism, as the world, to deal with
0:16:24 > 0:16:30racism. It is not just America.Is Donald Trump afraid to deal with
0:16:30 > 0:16:33racism, do you think?I think most leaders are afraid the deal,
0:16:33 > 0:16:37including President Trump, I think most are just afraid to deal with
0:16:37 > 0:16:42it. I mean, it is... First of all, it is not going to be something that
0:16:42 > 0:16:49we will conquer overnight. It is a lifelong pursuit.As a child, the
0:16:49 > 0:16:52youngest child of Martin Luther King, you were five when he was
0:16:52 > 0:16:57assassinated. You were born, though, at a high point in his life, it
0:16:57 > 0:17:03really, when he received the Nobel Prize, peace prize, when he made his
0:17:03 > 0:17:09famous I have a dream speech in 1963. You carry the King name.
0:17:09 > 0:17:14Obviously you try to continue his work. Do you see that legacy as
0:17:14 > 0:17:19something very positive, or do you feel that it is a burden in some
0:17:19 > 0:17:24ways?No, I feel inspired by it. I feel a sense of responsibility. At
0:17:24 > 0:17:30one point, it was a burden. But now it is so much a part of me, I
0:17:30 > 0:17:34welcome part of me. You know, the only burden I feel is the burden
0:17:34 > 0:17:42that he felt, which is, will we ever wake up to who we really are as
0:17:42 > 0:17:48humanity? To understand our value to each other? That is the burden I
0:17:48 > 0:17:53carry on a daily basis.You said at one time you felt that it was a bit
0:17:53 > 0:17:57of a burden, but now you see it as something that is positive and
0:17:57 > 0:18:03enriching. Just explain a bit more. Was it something you have had to
0:18:03 > 0:18:07grapple with?Well, yes, yes. The first part of it, because I was
0:18:07 > 0:18:11called to the minister at a young age, I was called at 17, I didn't
0:18:11 > 0:18:16really answer until I was just about 45. And then, in the early stages of
0:18:16 > 0:18:24accepting my calling, and then beginning to preach, I wanted to
0:18:24 > 0:18:29find Bernice, I wanted to find my voice. I wanted to see where I was
0:18:29 > 0:18:32congruent, and not just be due Pygott of my father and mother. And
0:18:32 > 0:18:38so I spent many years not even doing a lot of reading, of his books, or
0:18:38 > 0:18:45listening to his sermons, until I knew for sure, OK, this is who I am,
0:18:45 > 0:18:50this is what I accept in life. And then I started to approach a little
0:18:50 > 0:18:54bit more. Before then it was like, I don't want to deal with this,
0:18:54 > 0:18:58because people are going to always be comparing me to them, and I had
0:18:58 > 0:19:01to get comfortable with being me, and understanding what my mother
0:19:01 > 0:19:05told me as a child, me and my siblings. You don't have to be me,
0:19:05 > 0:19:10this is what she said, you do not have to be met, you do not have to
0:19:10 > 0:19:13be your father, just be your best self.How have your siblings dealt
0:19:13 > 0:19:19with it? I your older sister, the oldest child died in 2007 at a young
0:19:19 > 0:19:23age. She was only 51. You had two brothers, Martin Luther King the
0:19:23 > 0:19:29third, and Dexter. You seem to be one who is continuing.No, I think
0:19:29 > 0:19:33my brother Martin is doing it as well, he is just not a preacher. But
0:19:33 > 0:19:38he is doing it as well. He is doing it a lot of travelling, carrying
0:19:38 > 0:19:42some of the messages that I carry all over the place. And so I
0:19:42 > 0:19:46wouldn't say that it is not carrying, but we are carrying it out
0:19:46 > 0:19:49in different ways. Dexter is a little bit more reserved than
0:19:49 > 0:19:52personal. He doesn't do public speaking, he doesn't feel
0:19:52 > 0:19:57comfortable in that space. And so I think each one of us are doing it in
0:19:57 > 0:20:00different ways. You know, what has helped all of us, because we have
0:20:00 > 0:20:06talked about it before, if our mother had put pressure on us, it
0:20:06 > 0:20:10would have been really hard. But she took that pressure off, and that has
0:20:10 > 0:20:14helped us to process through the external pressure that we have in
0:20:14 > 0:20:17different seasons of our life.You know, bereavement has been a really
0:20:17 > 0:20:23defining feature of your life, hasn't it? You lost your sister,
0:20:23 > 0:20:30Yolanda, obviously your father was shot dead, your uncle was found
0:20:30 > 0:20:34mysteriously dead in a swimming pool.Father assassinated, yes.Your
0:20:34 > 0:20:40mother died of cancer in 2006. I mean, how has that affected you?It
0:20:40 > 0:20:46has affected me a lot. A lot of lost and separation, and you know, I deal
0:20:46 > 0:20:51with issues of abandonment all the time. I have processed through anger
0:20:51 > 0:20:56from time to time. I still deal with anger. I have the discipline myself
0:20:56 > 0:21:02so the anger doesn't overtake you. Depressed moments, as well?Yes, I
0:21:02 > 0:21:08have depressed moments. I miss my mother, especially, and my sister,
0:21:08 > 0:21:12because you know, I knew my mother, I was close to my mother. My father
0:21:12 > 0:21:17is a different story. And so, you know, I have days when I am very
0:21:17 > 0:21:22sad. But what I take with me is the lesson is that each one of them
0:21:22 > 0:21:26taught me in different ways. My father more vicariously, but my
0:21:26 > 0:21:32mother directly. My sister, etc, and that what keeps me going with my
0:21:32 > 0:21:37faith, my strong faith.I know obviously you were only five when
0:21:37 > 0:21:42your father died, but if he were here and were to look around him at
0:21:42 > 0:21:46race relations today in the United States, what do you think his
0:21:46 > 0:21:50opinion would be?I don't think he would have an opinion per se I think
0:21:50 > 0:21:54he would repeat the things. One of the things I said to you earlier,
0:21:54 > 0:21:58that we have to deal with the issue of justice, or else we are going to
0:21:58 > 0:22:02continue to see the growing tension and the turmoil in the streets. And
0:22:02 > 0:22:06none of this stuff would surprise my father at all.Would he think the
0:22:06 > 0:22:11struggle had been in vain, for example, when he sees...I think he
0:22:11 > 0:22:15would be disappointed. Disappointed that more efforts had not been made
0:22:15 > 0:22:21to embrace some of the things we talked about, the radical revolution
0:22:21 > 0:22:26of values, that we begin to become more of a person centred society
0:22:26 > 0:22:29than being centred society. That we deal with the triple evils of what
0:22:29 > 0:22:35he called poverty, racism and militarism. And so I think he would
0:22:35 > 0:22:39be disappointed that in the 50 years that he has been gone, that people
0:22:39 > 0:22:46did not take up that mantle persistently as a whole. And when I
0:22:46 > 0:22:49say people, I don't mean individuals. I mean people of
0:22:49 > 0:22:54conscience did not work collectively together persistently. The movement
0:22:54 > 0:23:01was a collection of people of conscience, a coalition of
0:23:01 > 0:23:04conscience, that moved together under his leadership persistently.
0:23:04 > 0:23:09That is what has been absent today. You have people living in pockets,
0:23:09 > 0:23:12but they are not doing it in a collaborative, consistent way.
0:23:12 > 0:23:18Couldn't that leader be you?I don't know about that. I do know about
0:23:18 > 0:23:25that. I have no idea, only God knows that. And, you know...Well, you
0:23:25 > 0:23:29wanted to be when you were a teenager...You know, my father was
0:23:29 > 0:23:34a reluctant leader. I am a reluctant leader. And he didn't choose to lead
0:23:34 > 0:23:39the movement, you know. He was catapulted. He was elected by a
0:23:39 > 0:23:46group of people, and destiny had him, and he accepted. And that is
0:23:46 > 0:23:51how it occurred. So, you know, I don't pursue leadership. What I try
0:23:51 > 0:23:55to do is to lend my voice to different situations, and I will
0:23:55 > 0:24:01continue to do that.Bernice king, thank you very much indeed for
0:24:01 > 0:24:10coming on HARDtalk.Thank you, I appreciate it.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12coming on HARDtalk.Thank you, I appreciate it.