0:00:05 > 0:00:11Half past for in the morning here in London. Is time for hard to talk. --
0:00:11 > 0:00:14time for HARDtalk.
0:00:14 > 0:00:22Welcome to HARDtalk. Over the past 25 years, Zambia has been a positive
0:00:22 > 0:00:26example of stable, relatively free and democratic governance in Africa.
0:00:26 > 0:00:33But that cherished status has been jeopardised of late. The country has
0:00:33 > 0:00:38seen a disputed election, political violence, a state of emergency and
0:00:38 > 0:00:41the imprisonment of my guest today um the opposition leader at two. He
0:00:41 > 0:00:47was freed last August but still refuses to accept village in a sea
0:00:47 > 0:01:01of last year's election. If -- is he destabilising Zambia?
0:01:20 > 0:01:24Hakainde Hichilema, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for having me.
0:01:24 > 0:01:29It is a pleasure. Not least because you are now a free man. This summer
0:01:29 > 0:01:34you spend over three months in prison but you were released and you
0:01:34 > 0:01:42are out. Is it now time to build fences with your political enemies,
0:01:42 > 0:01:49in particular, the president, Edgar Lungu?First, I am glad to be out.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52Nobody should be in prison, especially when you are not
0:01:52 > 0:02:00imprisoned for committing a crime. So it is nice to be out of prison. I
0:02:00 > 0:02:06am grateful to all those who did something. Now all of branch? I
0:02:06 > 0:02:11think it is time to fix the broken pieces of democracy in my country.
0:02:11 > 0:02:18That is how I define it.Let's talk about the incident that got you into
0:02:18 > 0:02:22prison. Many people around the world will find it quite bizarre. You were
0:02:22 > 0:02:27in the west of your country on the road with your team. A convoy when
0:02:27 > 0:02:33the presidential convoy, motorcade, came through on the same road. You
0:02:33 > 0:02:40and your team refused to pull over and got out of the way. Which, of
0:02:40 > 0:02:44course, is expected when a president passes through. Why? Actually, that
0:02:44 > 0:02:54is not what it was. His motorcade was behind us. We were ahead of him.
0:02:54 > 0:03:02He overtook not just my vehicles but 100 other vehicles. It is a little
0:03:02 > 0:03:06bit of said she said she said Storey. There are two versions.
0:03:06 > 0:03:14Let's stick with what the police chief said. He said that it has been
0:03:14 > 0:03:19established that the opposition leader disobeyed police orders and
0:03:19 > 0:03:23thereby put the life of the head of state in danger.Absolutely not
0:03:23 > 0:03:36true. If that was the case, how is it that other road users were not
0:03:36 > 0:03:45arrested for treason? Exactly the same conditions when his motorcade
0:03:45 > 0:03:50passed several hundreds of other vehicles.A couple of days later
0:03:50 > 0:03:56there was a raid on your home and you are grabbed, your family, it
0:03:56 > 0:04:00seems, was quite upset by what they saw. You were hauled off to prison
0:04:00 > 0:04:05and a few days you are held in solitary confinement. This is not
0:04:05 > 0:04:10pleasant. No-one could say this was a pleasant experience. The bottom
0:04:10 > 0:04:15line is you were treated with respect, you ultimately freed after
0:04:15 > 0:04:22just over three months in captivity. Four months.And a charge of treason
0:04:22 > 0:04:27that was originally put against you was dropped. Why have you made such
0:04:27 > 0:04:33a fuss about what happened?First, Stephen, I should never have been
0:04:33 > 0:04:41arrested. I and five others should never have been arrested because we
0:04:41 > 0:04:46did not commit any treason.We have gone into that. Can we now discuss
0:04:46 > 0:04:50what this overall incident tells us about Zambia today? As I say, in
0:04:50 > 0:04:55some countries you may still be languishing in prison. The is after
0:04:55 > 0:05:00a degree of intervention from the outside including from the Secretary
0:05:00 > 0:05:07General of the Commonwealth and a degree of compromise, let's put it
0:05:07 > 0:05:11that way, you emerged from prison and now you are free man who has
0:05:11 > 0:05:14travelled to London to conduct political work. What is the message
0:05:14 > 0:05:22of all of this, do you think?The message is that we need to clean up
0:05:22 > 0:05:29our democratic credentials. The situation in Zambia should never
0:05:29 > 0:05:35allow the citizens to be brutally arrested and detained eight days in
0:05:35 > 0:05:40solitary confinement, 120 days in total, in prison under the grading
0:05:40 > 0:05:47and inhuman conditions.Be specific. What are you accusing the prison
0:05:47 > 0:05:53authorities doing?Firstly, the manner in which I was arrested was
0:05:53 > 0:06:01unacceptable to begin the place I have been arrested over ten times
0:06:01 > 0:06:05since 2011 and all of these ten times, all I received was a police
0:06:05 > 0:06:12callout and I presented myself to the police. They should have done
0:06:12 > 0:06:16the same here. That should not be allowed to happen to anyone,
0:06:16 > 0:06:20including to those who treated us in that manner.The serious allegation
0:06:20 > 0:06:23of yours of brutal treatment in prison. What is your evidence of
0:06:23 > 0:06:32that?First this house was swamped by over 300 heavily armed policeman.
0:06:32 > 0:06:37They broke the entrance to the yard, they broke the house down. Then in
0:06:37 > 0:06:44eight days in solitary confinement I could not see anybody. I was in a
0:06:44 > 0:06:50room with no electricity nor water Nora toilet. Literally how can you
0:06:50 > 0:07:01put someone in a dark room for eight days? For what? On the eighth day I
0:07:01 > 0:07:06was taken from that location and moved to an ordinary prison. There
0:07:06 > 0:07:10is a court ruling. That is what took. There is evidence.Given your
0:07:10 > 0:07:17treatment, would you say that you emerged from your detention fearful,
0:07:17 > 0:07:21or intimidated in a sense in a way that you were not before?I am not
0:07:21 > 0:07:28intimidated, Stephen. May be the intention was to break me down. That
0:07:28 > 0:07:33I am not broken because we understood and we expected that the
0:07:33 > 0:07:36government like the one we have could do things like this. The
0:07:36 > 0:07:43writing was on the wall. But we made stronger and I said before and I say
0:07:43 > 0:07:48it again.Interestingly you say you emerged stronger but you also
0:07:48 > 0:07:53emerged making noises about conciliation. As I said, you saw the
0:07:53 > 0:07:57Secretary General of the Commonwealth who was instrumental in
0:07:57 > 0:08:01your relief and after your release you said, and I quote you directly,
0:08:01 > 0:08:05it is our collective duty to bring unity to our country. We cannot run
0:08:05 > 0:08:13a country like this. We are currently so divided. So you saw the
0:08:13 > 0:08:16wisdom thereof collective action, presumably dialogue, to unify the
0:08:16 > 0:08:20country. You still feel that way today?Absolutely. And my message
0:08:20 > 0:08:27was in reference to specific things that need to be fixed, that need to
0:08:27 > 0:08:31be corrected, so that we do not continue with a negative situation.
0:08:31 > 0:08:36We can talk about that.We will. But I would like to go through this
0:08:36 > 0:08:42forensically. Is it not time for you to drop your insistence that the
0:08:42 > 0:08:45President is illegitimate and the election fraud if you wish to unite
0:08:45 > 0:08:55the country?You could see that. The constitutional rank of disputing
0:08:55 > 0:09:01elections, which is via an electoral petition must be respected. So the
0:09:01 > 0:09:10rule of law with regard to the remedies that are viable to
0:09:10 > 0:09:13anybody...As I understand it, the Constitutional Court looked at your
0:09:13 > 0:09:17argument and threw it out.Not at all. That is the irony. Petition has
0:09:17 > 0:09:22still not yet been turned -- heard. I know it has been before a court.
0:09:22 > 0:09:27So you have had your day in court and the court chose not to take up
0:09:27 > 0:09:33your petition.No, no. The basic constitutional provision under the
0:09:33 > 0:09:38Bill of Rights is that every citizen in a group of citizens who feel
0:09:38 > 0:09:41aggrieved about anything have a right to go to court and the court
0:09:41 > 0:09:45has an obligation to hear their matter, not to just admit the
0:09:45 > 0:09:51concerned to hear it.The court took the decision to throw out your
0:09:51 > 0:09:57petition. The bottom line is, surely, under most circumstances the
0:09:57 > 0:10:00international norm is that governments around the world take a
0:10:00 > 0:10:04view as to whether an election is deemed to be fair and reasonable and
0:10:04 > 0:10:09legitimate or not. The clear collective view in the case of
0:10:09 > 0:10:12Zambia is that the election of 2016 was regarded as acceptable. The
0:10:12 > 0:10:21United States of America congratulated Edgar Lungu on his
0:10:21 > 0:10:25re-election saying it was a clear manifesto of the will of the UK
0:10:25 > 0:10:29people. The UK High Commissioner sent a message this year on the
0:10:29 > 0:10:34Queen's Birthday, calling on respect for the head of state. A clear
0:10:34 > 0:10:38signal that the UK respects the position of Edgar Lungu. The
0:10:38 > 0:10:42president of South Africa accordingly invited him to South
0:10:42 > 0:10:47Africa in a sign of his belief in the credibility of that election.
0:10:47 > 0:10:55You could say so and maybe you could be heard and heard loudly. If what
0:10:55 > 0:11:01you say was not challenged by the Kenyan institutional court ruling
0:11:01 > 0:11:06over the last election. At the current issues going on but just
0:11:06 > 0:11:14before. It included and discredited comments from the international
0:11:14 > 0:11:20community. What matters is to follow the rule of law to ensure that the
0:11:20 > 0:11:28petitioners had, not just submitted. That is important. And, remember the
0:11:28 > 0:11:39former Secretary of State, John Kerry, needed an apology because
0:11:39 > 0:11:44similar issues where it our issue should be heard by the
0:11:44 > 0:11:48Constitutional Court. And then all issues would have been resolved
0:11:48 > 0:11:56squarely.You accuse Edgar Lungu and his ruling party of a series of
0:11:56 > 0:12:00fraudulent actions concerning the election. The truth is, your own
0:12:00 > 0:12:06party has a record that is highly questionable. For example,
0:12:06 > 0:12:14inflammatory rhetoric. This is before the election of last year
0:12:14 > 0:12:18when Geoffrey Wamba told a crowd of people that he would go for the
0:12:18 > 0:12:26throat of the President. What kind of language is that?If you followed
0:12:26 > 0:12:39the campaign and looked at people flowing from one side to the
0:12:39 > 0:12:45other,...You, for example, you said that Edgar Lungu wanted to kill you.
0:12:45 > 0:12:51Of course. The way the man -- the manner in which I was arrested and
0:12:51 > 0:12:54detained...With respect, if he wanted to kill you he could have.
0:12:54 > 0:12:59But he did not. There is absolutely no evidence that his intent was to
0:12:59 > 0:13:03kill you. My point is this. You came out of prison saying you wanted to
0:13:03 > 0:13:07work for national unity. National unity means getting away from this
0:13:07 > 0:13:14inflammatory rhetoric.National unity means restoring the rule of
0:13:14 > 0:13:25law. In all respects, whether the law in question, you know, favours a
0:13:25 > 0:13:33particular group, it does not matter. In a case like our petition,
0:13:33 > 0:13:38Article 104, our petition in the case once a petition is submitted,
0:13:38 > 0:13:47just submitted, it then needs to be transferred to the Speaker.As the
0:13:47 > 0:13:50leader of the United party for national development have a duty to
0:13:50 > 0:13:54follow the law just as the President does. Explain to me how the
0:13:54 > 0:14:01discovery of 21 of your young party workers training in a gym with the
0:14:01 > 0:14:04weapons including machetes and live ammunition, how does that represent
0:14:04 > 0:14:10you following the law?
0:14:10 > 0:14:15Steven, that matter is in court. I think the ruling will be absolute,
0:14:15 > 0:14:19and I can assure you, you may swallow back those words after the
0:14:19 > 0:14:27ruling in court. Accusations and trumped-up charges is how things are
0:14:27 > 0:14:32in Zambia. It kind of negativity is not what we need for this country.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35Did you tell your supporters to burn down the city marketing Lusaka?
0:14:35 > 0:14:41Absolutely not. That is why today there is nobody convicted on our
0:14:41 > 0:14:45side of earning the market.The president said it was a clear side
0:14:45 > 0:14:51-- clear act of sabotage designed to hurt him and his government.It was
0:14:51 > 0:14:57framing a strong opposition, like us, tuque justify the invocation of
0:14:57 > 0:15:01article 31 in our constitution, which is the threat of emergency.
0:15:01 > 0:15:06Stephen, you cannot have a fire at 5:30am, and by 6am, you go to the
0:15:06 > 0:15:14scene and say it was UPN members who burned the market. Where is the
0:15:14 > 0:15:17investigation? It was never done, which is why nobody was convicted
0:15:17 > 0:15:21for it.Do you feel yourself to be a true democrat?Absolutely,
0:15:21 > 0:15:26absolutely.Do you think Zambian democracy is in grave danger today?
0:15:26 > 0:15:31It is in grave danger.Would you say you are partly responsible for that?
0:15:31 > 0:15:35I think many players are partially responsible. That is why would be
0:15:35 > 0:15:39looked -- we would like to be part of the resolution of this
0:15:39 > 0:15:44negativity. We are very much committed to that. As a keep saying,
0:15:44 > 0:15:48human rights must be respected. We have lost that at the moment. The
0:15:48 > 0:15:51rule of law must be respected. We have lost that at the moment. We
0:15:51 > 0:15:55need to stop the political violence, which is becoming the order of the
0:15:55 > 0:16:01day in our country.OK, but I feel that in a sense, we are skirting
0:16:01 > 0:16:05around the same issue again and again. If you are serious in what
0:16:05 > 0:16:09you say, wanting to save Zambian democracy, if you want to sit down
0:16:09 > 0:16:13with your opponents and find a way through this crisis, then surely the
0:16:13 > 0:16:17first thing you have to do is accept the legitimacy of the President.
0:16:17 > 0:16:20Vicars before you do that, how can he possibly sit down with you? --
0:16:20 > 0:16:29because the fore. -- before.Any dialogue must be aimed it with
0:16:29 > 0:16:36preconditions.Surely that is the most basic precondition of all?I
0:16:36 > 0:16:40have already answered the question...You have just said it,
0:16:40 > 0:16:46but it doesn't make much sense.Why not?Here is a president who is
0:16:46 > 0:16:48accepted by the international community as the legitimate leader
0:16:48 > 0:16:53of your country. If you, as the Leader of the Opposition, want to
0:16:53 > 0:16:56sit down and have a dialogue with him to work through some of the
0:16:56 > 0:16:59political problems that are so manifesting your country today,
0:16:59 > 0:17:04surely you have to accept his legitimacy?Stephen, I have already
0:17:04 > 0:17:11said before, there is no legal obligation in our statutes,
0:17:11 > 0:17:15anywhere, for what you are asking me to do. Secondly, we have a petition
0:17:15 > 0:17:22still in the course of law, alive and active before the courts, so how
0:17:22 > 0:17:27could anybody make a comment like that?Remind me. Is it a four-year
0:17:27 > 0:17:33or a five-year term?Five years.So you are telling me that these -- vat
0:17:33 > 0:17:36for the foreseeable future, possibly for a five-year term, you are going
0:17:36 > 0:17:40to refuse to accept your country has a legitimate president?That is not
0:17:40 > 0:17:46what I'm saying. I am saying that if our presidential petition, which is
0:17:46 > 0:17:49before the courts of law, and you can verify that yourself, is dealt
0:17:49 > 0:17:56with, there in lies the issue of recognition. It is a no-brainer.Why
0:17:56 > 0:18:02do you think you have lost five elections?One, you can say that,
0:18:02 > 0:18:08but...Answer the question. Why do you think so? Zambia is held up by
0:18:08 > 0:18:13Africans as an example of a state that has embraced democracy.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16Relative freedom, it isn't perfect, we know that you have problems with
0:18:16 > 0:18:21the media and other elements of repression. But mentally it has been
0:18:21 > 0:18:24fairly free and fairly democratic for a generation. -- Bhatt
0:18:24 > 0:18:31ultimately. -- but. You have had a chance to run for the top office of
0:18:31 > 0:18:35your country and you have repeatedly lost. Why?That is what we are
0:18:35 > 0:18:40challenging in the courts.Every time you have run for office, you
0:18:40 > 0:18:44are in fairly beaten? Every vote was rigged, was it?This is the first
0:18:44 > 0:18:49time I have gone to the courts. Why? Because of the manner in which the
0:18:49 > 0:18:53election was managed, the electoral process, which lacks transparency.
0:18:53 > 0:19:00It lacks, if you like, integrity. That is why we are asking for a
0:19:00 > 0:19:06replacement of the Electoral Commission, to be replaced with a
0:19:06 > 0:19:09truly independent Electoral Commission, as is the case in
0:19:09 > 0:19:13neighbouring countries, like South Africa. The issue here, Stephen, is
0:19:13 > 0:19:18really, to turn your question around, why didn't we petition
0:19:18 > 0:19:22before? Why did we petition this time? It is because there were
0:19:22 > 0:19:26issues on the ground. And we tested our argument by petitioning
0:19:26 > 0:19:30parliamentary seats in an area which we thought was flawed, Lusaka. Two
0:19:30 > 0:19:34of them, the elections have been nullified. Two Parliamentary seats
0:19:34 > 0:19:42in Lusaka. That is a fact.Let me put this to you. You are somewhat
0:19:42 > 0:19:45more preoccupied with self-interest than the national interest. If you
0:19:45 > 0:19:49were serious about working with the government to try to solve some of
0:19:49 > 0:19:53Zambia's problems, you might be more focused on some of the stunning and
0:19:53 > 0:19:58alarming statistics in your country. Life expectancy for men, 49 years,
0:19:58 > 0:20:02for women, 50 years. Endemic poverty. Poverty rates which are
0:20:02 > 0:20:06truly stunning, and which are going to get worse because the population
0:20:06 > 0:20:11of 13 million or 14 million could be 50 million x 2050, and as we have
0:20:11 > 0:20:17heard most recently, on the former Nigerian President, population
0:20:17 > 0:20:21explosion in Africa is perhaps the biggest problem Africa faces of all
0:20:21 > 0:20:26of them. And yet you are obsessed with your own fight with President
0:20:26 > 0:20:30Lungu over the last election. Can't you focus on what really matters?I
0:20:30 > 0:20:37really think it is not a question of this or that. It is a question of
0:20:37 > 0:20:43all of the things you are seeing are important. -- saving. Because in
0:20:43 > 0:20:48order to basically support the country's population, take it out of
0:20:48 > 0:20:52poverty, provide education, health and clean water, all of those issues
0:20:52 > 0:20:56are connected to the quality of leadership. Quality of leadership in
0:20:56 > 0:21:00a democracy comes through in actions. And that is where the
0:21:00 > 0:21:04competition for office, in order to do the things you are saying, which
0:21:04 > 0:21:10I totally agree with, that is where it lies. It is not this or that.A
0:21:10 > 0:21:15recent Economist article looked at your economic policies and the
0:21:15 > 0:21:18government's and concluded both of them are not addressing Zambia's
0:21:18 > 0:21:21real issues, which is the overreliance on mining, the copper
0:21:21 > 0:21:25industry in particular, the massive amounts of money spent every year on
0:21:25 > 0:21:28subsidies for fuel and basic staples. Your economy is broken. You
0:21:28 > 0:21:35have, let me check, you have the third hungriest population in the
0:21:35 > 0:21:43world, according to the Global Under Index. -- Hunger. These are problems
0:21:43 > 0:21:45which neither your party nor the President's are capable of
0:21:45 > 0:21:50addressing.Now you are getting to the real issues, which affect the
0:21:50 > 0:21:53people daily. This is one of the issues at the top of our agenda.
0:21:53 > 0:22:02Governance. Governance that will ensure we reduce the endemic
0:22:02 > 0:22:06corruption that we see today in the country, which basically sits in
0:22:06 > 0:22:12many areas, procurement of loans, today you have a country, Zambia,
0:22:12 > 0:22:21which is procuring expensive loans at 9.5% Eurobonds, instead of
0:22:21 > 0:22:27procuring loans from multilateral organisations. 0% interest. That is
0:22:27 > 0:22:32the question. Why would a leadership which is riddled with poverty
0:22:32 > 0:22:37amongst its population go and procure loans which are more
0:22:37 > 0:22:40expensive than cheaper loans? It is because of corruption.And you think
0:22:40 > 0:22:45you can fix the problems of Zambia? A zero tolerance of corruption.Will
0:22:45 > 0:22:51you run again in the next scheduled residential election in 2021? --
0:22:51 > 0:22:56presidential election?The question is, are we going to have free and
0:22:56 > 0:23:02fair and credible elections in 2021? Is it your intention to run?We can
0:23:02 > 0:23:06do that if we reform the electoral process. Everybody is free to run,
0:23:06 > 0:23:10including myself.Finally, much of this interview has been about your
0:23:10 > 0:23:14relationship with President Lungu. According to one technical
0:23:14 > 0:23:17interpretation of the constitution, he cannot run again in 2021, because
0:23:17 > 0:23:22he has all ready run twice. He says that he can run again, it is he says
0:23:22 > 0:23:26his first election was a result of the death of the sitting president
0:23:26 > 0:23:30and he was in the power for one year before the next election came along.
0:23:30 > 0:23:34So he thinks he can run. Do you agree?It is not a question of
0:23:34 > 0:23:38whether I agree not. It is another example of the importance of
0:23:38 > 0:23:45respecting the rule of law. The constitution shows clearly what
0:23:45 > 0:23:50constitutes two terms. It is very clear.So can he run again, or not?
0:23:50 > 0:23:53If we follow the Constitutional provisions, and that is the way it
0:23:53 > 0:23:59should be...So what is the answer? In your view...It is not my view.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02It is a legal provision, and the matter is in the Constitutional
0:24:02 > 0:24:06Court at the moment, as we speak. I think that decision will be made if
0:24:06 > 0:24:09the judges follow the Constitutional provisions, which is what we want
0:24:09 > 0:24:13them to do. They will make a determination as to whether he can
0:24:13 > 0:24:18run or not and that determination must be respected. That's it.
0:24:18 > 0:24:23Hakainde Hichilema, we must end its there. Thank you for being on
0:24:23 > 0:24:26HARDtalk.Thank you.