0:00:00 > 0:00:00and abuse against members of parliament.
0:00:00 > 0:00:03Mr Fallon admitted that his behaviour in the past may have
0:00:03 > 0:00:05fallen short of the standards expected.
0:00:05 > 0:00:12Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.
0:00:12 > 0:00:18Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. Far from settling anything,
0:00:18 > 0:00:23the Catalan regional government's recent decoration of independence
0:00:23 > 0:00:30has deepened the uncertainty and confusion in Catalonia. Madrid has
0:00:30 > 0:00:34placed the region under direct rule. The leaders of the ousted
0:00:34 > 0:00:38administration in Barcelona face charges in trial. New elections are
0:00:38 > 0:00:45to be held in December. My guess is Alfred Bosch, a senior figure in the
0:00:45 > 0:00:52Republican left party which was part of the coalition. Have the
0:00:52 > 0:01:20secessionists scored a massive own goal? Alfred Bosch, welcome to
0:01:20 > 0:01:28HARDtalk.Hello. How are you?Very well, and wondering how you are
0:01:28 > 0:01:34feeling. Would you agree that things have not exactly gone to plan since
0:01:34 > 0:01:40that unilateral declaration of Catalan independence just a few days
0:01:40 > 0:01:51ago was a -- ago?The declaration happened and the plans have worked.
0:01:51 > 0:01:55Now we are trying to do something which deserves some respect which is
0:01:55 > 0:02:00trying to cope with a wave of oppression that the Spanish
0:02:00 > 0:02:06government is deploying in Catalonia against us.Well, respect,
0:02:06 > 0:02:11obviously, has to be earned. I am just wondering whether the people of
0:02:11 > 0:02:15Catalonia respect leaders of their regional government who don't appear
0:02:15 > 0:02:19to have had any coherent strategy for the day after the big
0:02:19 > 0:02:28declaration.I think everybody here in Catalonia understands, and I am
0:02:28 > 0:02:33sure the world will understand, once it is explained that we needed to
0:02:33 > 0:02:37have part of the government in Catalonia not abandoning their own
0:02:37 > 0:02:42people. And part of the government in Brussels to initiate this
0:02:42 > 0:02:47international strategy. And to tell the whole world that we are live,
0:02:47 > 0:02:54that we proclaim the Republic and we want freedom and to pursue it
0:02:54 > 0:02:58through democratic means to be now there is a huge wave of oppression
0:02:58 > 0:03:02falling on top of us. Otherwise, people will be saying why are you
0:03:02 > 0:03:07addressing the international audience, why are you staying at
0:03:07 > 0:03:13home? We spoke and we did the right thing, I think.I must say, you are
0:03:13 > 0:03:16putting a very positive spin on things and we will get to
0:03:16 > 0:03:19accusations of oppression from Madrid in a moment. Just to stick
0:03:19 > 0:03:23with what the Catalan leadership has been up to of late, this is what you
0:03:23 > 0:03:27said on Monday the 30th of October, just a couple of days ago, you said
0:03:27 > 0:03:32that Carles Puigdemont, who, of course, was the leader of the
0:03:32 > 0:03:36Catalan regional government, would not abandon this duties. You said
0:03:36 > 0:03:40that he has been chosen to lead this country and that is what he is going
0:03:40 > 0:03:45to do. It is his duty. He will not abandon his duty. Well, as you were
0:03:45 > 0:03:50saying that, we now know he was getting on a flight and going to
0:03:50 > 0:03:58Brussels and is now in effect is living in exile.Well, of course, he
0:03:58 > 0:04:01is still fulfilling his duties and his obligations because, I am sure
0:04:01 > 0:04:08you can realise that Carles Puigdemont would like to write now
0:04:08 > 0:04:13be with his family, his beloved wife, his two children, girls, eight
0:04:13 > 0:04:19and 10, and wants to be with them. But he is fulfilling his obligations
0:04:19 > 0:04:23because he is in Brussels explaining to the world what is going on in
0:04:23 > 0:04:32Catalonia, what are the hopes of us and what are the plans for the
0:04:32 > 0:04:36Spanish government.Be honest, when you said that, you did not know that
0:04:36 > 0:04:46he was fleeing to Brussels. Let's face it, your own leader of your own
0:04:46 > 0:04:51Republican Left Party, he made a different choice. He could have
0:04:51 > 0:04:55stayed in Barcelona.It was a collective decision. We decided the
0:04:55 > 0:04:59president of Catalonia is the best icon we have so we will not
0:04:59 > 0:05:12surrender it. Like the Dalai Lama, did he surrender? No, he didn't. We
0:05:12 > 0:05:17have to stick by him. He needs to be in the capital of Europe for the
0:05:17 > 0:05:21time being. That might change.Sorry to interrupt, but let's go through
0:05:21 > 0:05:27this bit by bit.I am serious.Isn't it true he has gone to Brussels as
0:05:27 > 0:05:31nobody of any significance in the institutions or leadership of member
0:05:31 > 0:05:36states, they don't want to talk to him, they will not touch him with a
0:05:36 > 0:05:42barge pole.First thing, I think it is not something to be laughed at.
0:05:42 > 0:05:48Our people were butchered by the police for voting. Elderly ladies,
0:05:48 > 0:05:52grandmothers, grandfathers, they were beaten up, whole families were
0:05:52 > 0:05:58beaten up for voting, just for going to the voting stations. That is
0:05:58 > 0:06:01something that deserves attention from Europe, from everybody in the
0:06:01 > 0:06:06world. And what Carles Puigdemont, the Catalan president, is doing
0:06:06 > 0:06:09right now, is pursuing that international agenda. That does not
0:06:09 > 0:06:13mean we will have instant success because European leaders see what's
0:06:13 > 0:06:17happening in Catalonia as a threat. I think they are wrong. They should
0:06:17 > 0:06:22see it as an opportunity. Because Europe was founded on democracy. And
0:06:22 > 0:06:27in the aftermath of a Second World War, it was the ballot box, and not
0:06:27 > 0:06:30the bullet, which prevailed. And that is how we think things should
0:06:30 > 0:06:34prevail in Europe. And that is what we are doing. Who could be
0:06:34 > 0:06:42against... I mean, could Claude Monet the against the people who
0:06:42 > 0:06:45defended the ballot box with their bodies? Is that not an example for
0:06:45 > 0:06:52Europe?I promise you we will come back to the European response on
0:06:52 > 0:06:56what the Catalans and your regional government have done in a moment
0:06:56 > 0:06:59just as we will get to your allegations Madrid. But I want to
0:06:59 > 0:07:04stick to what the decisions have been sent unilateral declaration of
0:07:04 > 0:07:08independence from your own site, from leadership of the secessionists
0:07:08 > 0:07:17party. Let's face it, I mean, right now, it is clear that there is deep
0:07:17 > 0:07:25confusion inside the various parties that make up the Yes to Independence
0:07:25 > 0:07:29Coalition, will you at least accept that?Well, what kind of confusion?
0:07:29 > 0:07:35Could you expand on that?Indeed, I can. For example, I have had
0:07:35 > 0:07:41different messages from different politicians about whether your boss
0:07:41 > 0:07:45in the Republican Left Party and Carles Puigdemont, and others,
0:07:45 > 0:07:50indeed should go to Madrid to face the charges and the trial that is
0:07:50 > 0:07:53now demanded of them by the authorities in Spain. What do you
0:07:53 > 0:08:02say to that?Well, it is very clear, and I have stated very clearly. The
0:08:02 > 0:08:07vice president of the Catalan government, he was chosen in the
0:08:07 > 0:08:11polls, in voting sessions. He was chosen by the votes, so it is to get
0:08:11 > 0:08:18it. He will go to court to face the charges, charges against sedition,
0:08:18 > 0:08:24for example, rebellion, ancient offences like that which don't
0:08:24 > 0:08:35really stand probably in the modern Western world and Europe right now.
0:08:35 > 0:08:40Will Carles Puigdemont... Will Carles Puigdemont be one of those
0:08:40 > 0:08:45individuals charged who agrees to go to Madrid? I talk of confusion, for
0:08:45 > 0:08:51example, whether he is prepared to go.Let's not get overexcited about
0:08:51 > 0:08:56this. We can deal with this with a very calm attitude. Carles
0:08:56 > 0:09:01Puigdemont, like I said at the beginning, he made a decision which
0:09:01 > 0:09:05was actively taken collectively. And we decided that he was too valuable
0:09:05 > 0:09:09to go and hand him over to the Madrid authorities. Now, the rest
0:09:09 > 0:09:15will go there, and most of the councillors and the vice president
0:09:15 > 0:09:20will be in Madrid to face whatever charges they encounter in court.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23Carles Puigdemont has to be preserved as an international icon
0:09:23 > 0:09:29for the time being. That is our decision, and we will stick to it.
0:09:29 > 0:09:33We said that yesterday. We are quite firm in that.By your own account,
0:09:33 > 0:09:38then, he will be essentially a absconding from justice. The others
0:09:38 > 0:09:45are prepared to go and face justice. Carles Puigdemont is not.Let's look
0:09:45 > 0:09:51at this in a subtle way. Will use call it justice, would you call it
0:09:51 > 0:09:59fair, people who organised a vote on October the first, a vote which was
0:09:59 > 0:10:05actually defended by the people physically with their bodies. Is
0:10:05 > 0:10:11defending freedom is an offence in 21st century Europe, we are in a
0:10:11 > 0:10:18really bad situation, I must say. Still, they are brave people, they
0:10:18 > 0:10:21will face whatever charges they have, because they don't want to let
0:10:21 > 0:10:26the people down.Here is another... I used that word confusion and you
0:10:26 > 0:10:29questioned me about itis another area in which I see confusion of the
0:10:29 > 0:10:35ERA you in the Republican Left Party and in the party of Carles
0:10:35 > 0:10:38Puigdemont as well prepared to fight the elections in December 31 and put
0:10:38 > 0:10:45up as candidates all of those people who were in the last Parliament? --
0:10:45 > 0:10:51confusion? Are you now able to accept that de facto Madrid rule is
0:10:51 > 0:10:55the order of the day and you will play by the rules of Madrid going
0:10:55 > 0:11:00forward?To answer your first question, yes that be the answer to
0:11:00 > 0:11:05the second question, no.But the two are interlinked, because if you are
0:11:05 > 0:11:09prepared to fight that election, you are doing it on the terms of Madrid.
0:11:09 > 0:11:13Your Parliament, the one you say is legitimate, has been dissolved. The
0:11:13 > 0:11:19order of the election is coming from Madrid. You are recognising direct
0:11:19 > 0:11:25role by taking their request to fight the election.That is the
0:11:25 > 0:11:31Madrid line that is the argument of the Spanish government. I am sure
0:11:31 > 0:11:34the BBC, which takes a neutral stance on this and professionals
0:11:34 > 0:11:38like you will actually like to hear our opinion on that. We don't see it
0:11:38 > 0:11:53interlinked. In fact, we see that Madrid and Mr Rajoy specifically had
0:11:53 > 0:11:56to call the election not out of strength, but out of weakness. He
0:11:56 > 0:12:06did not want to do it. He announced there would be no elections in six
0:12:06 > 0:12:10months, maybe one year, then he does it in the legal minimum, a month and
0:12:10 > 0:12:14a half. Someone forced him, convince them, to call them that it was a
0:12:14 > 0:12:17concession. That is a sign of weakness. He is strong enough to
0:12:17 > 0:12:20call it, obviously, but not enough to delay them. Because his
0:12:20 > 0:12:26intention, and he said it quite clearly, it was a statement by Mr
0:12:26 > 0:12:34Rajoy on television. He said he would suspend Article 155, putting
0:12:34 > 0:12:38direct rule on Catalonia, putting the police under the orders of the
0:12:38 > 0:12:45ministry of the interior in Madrid. His inability to do that is what led
0:12:45 > 0:12:51to the election. We are entering the Madrid line...It is interesting,
0:12:51 > 0:12:55there's talk of where the weakness in the strength lies. I mean, again,
0:12:55 > 0:12:59looking at the facts, as I try to do, you and others in the
0:12:59 > 0:13:05independence movement said there would be mass civil disobedience if
0:13:05 > 0:13:09Madrid imposed direct rule under Article 155 of the Constitution.
0:13:09 > 0:13:15Look at the last couple of days. There has not been mass civil
0:13:15 > 0:13:18disobedience. Public sector workers, teachers, police, firefighters, they
0:13:18 > 0:13:23have worked as normal. Senior police officer is dismissed from posts
0:13:23 > 0:13:29advised junior officer is to continue. People in Barcelona and
0:13:29 > 0:13:33other towns and cities look pretty normal to be in fact, the biggest
0:13:33 > 0:13:40rally we have seen since this crisis reached the point of UDI was
0:13:40 > 0:13:44actually a pro-union rally where up to a million people went onto the
0:13:44 > 0:13:48streets expressing support for the continued union of Catalonia inside
0:13:48 > 0:13:55Spain!Yeah. There were some scenes of violence in the aftermath of all
0:13:55 > 0:14:03those demonstrations by pro- fascist groups, but we can also say...With
0:14:03 > 0:14:07respect, Alfred Bosch, where was the mass civil disobedience that you
0:14:07 > 0:14:11predicted?Carles Puigdemont referred to that in his press
0:14:11 > 0:14:17conference in Brussels. The issue is whether we would like to see
0:14:17 > 0:14:20violence, whether we would like to see bloodshed, because the threat
0:14:20 > 0:14:26was there. We saw with the Madrid government, the Spanish government,
0:14:26 > 0:14:29we saw what they were capable of doing, sending police against
0:14:29 > 0:14:32ordinary unarmed defenceless civilians, and we saw that on
0:14:32 > 0:14:38October one, and you broadcast that all over the world. So we know what
0:14:38 > 0:14:44they are kept ball of doing. There were very serious threats on Catalan
0:14:44 > 0:14:47society, and Catalan petitions, like Carles Puigdemont, received those
0:14:47 > 0:14:54threats, and they have decided to stop people mobilising. --
0:14:54 > 0:14:58politicians. That would have led to a massive confrontation. Does anyone
0:14:58 > 0:15:03want that? Note. We are a peaceful and civilised people. We will carry
0:15:03 > 0:15:09on in a civic and very peaceful manner like we have always done. Is
0:15:09 > 0:15:13that is why we are standing for the selections. We want to turn them
0:15:13 > 0:15:20into a plebiscite. We have that opportunity. Let's turn it around
0:15:20 > 0:15:35and try to win the elections. Let's do it again. What will he do?
0:15:35 > 0:15:38That is a very interesting point and an interesting challenge to Rajoy
0:15:38 > 0:15:42did you have just made. You clearly have expressed your confidence that
0:15:42 > 0:15:46the pro- independence parties will emerge victorious on December 20
0:15:46 > 0:15:50one. But that if around to Europe. The indication of what you are
0:15:50 > 0:15:54saying is that there is a recognition that if you do not win a
0:15:54 > 0:15:58clear majority - that is the pro- independence parties do not emerge
0:15:58 > 0:16:03victorious on December 21. Your declaration of independence will be
0:16:03 > 0:16:07null and void and your dream of independence is shattered. Would you
0:16:07 > 0:16:14accept that?I would accept that we had to pursue our goals through
0:16:14 > 0:16:19democracy and through the vote. And through free, peaceful methods. We
0:16:19 > 0:16:22have been doing that for seven years, at least, actively. We have
0:16:22 > 0:16:31one popular consultation. We have one unofficial binding referendum...
0:16:31 > 0:16:37No, no, no,... Unofficial binding referendum is not straitly true,
0:16:37 > 0:16:40what you said. It was not an official binding referendum. The
0:16:40 > 0:16:45constitutional court dismissed it, the Spanish courts do not recognise
0:16:45 > 0:16:50it, nor any other members of the European Union, and you in your
0:16:50 > 0:16:54party is regarded that as binding, but it was not persuasive to those
0:16:54 > 0:17:00authorities that matter.No, sorry. Sorry. I must argue on that. You are
0:17:00 > 0:17:04obviously following the line of the Spanish governed.No, no, I am not
0:17:04 > 0:17:10following any lines. I am looking at the facts.The Catalan referendum
0:17:10 > 0:17:14was approved in Parliament. And it was enacted by law. And it was
0:17:14 > 0:17:18binding because the law said it was biting.And the Spanish
0:17:18 > 0:17:22Constitutional Court decreed that that particular law and the calling
0:17:22 > 0:17:25of that referendum by the Catalonian regional government and Parliament
0:17:25 > 0:17:36was not constitutional.I might grant something: If you only, if you
0:17:36 > 0:17:41only argue according to Spanish law, obviously, we should concede that.
0:17:41 > 0:17:48If you argue with fundamental rights and democratic rights, obviously
0:17:48 > 0:17:52people have the right to vote. They had it in Scotland. They had it in
0:17:52 > 0:17:58Quebec. They have added all over the world.With the agreement that the
0:17:58 > 0:18:02national sovereign governments relevant to those particular cases -
0:18:02 > 0:18:06you never had the agreement of Madrid, and that is the point. But
0:18:06 > 0:18:09if you don't mind, let's address whether right now you truly believe
0:18:09 > 0:18:16you have a majority of Catalans on your for the consistent push toward
0:18:16 > 0:18:20full, practical independence. Let me quote you the words of a highly
0:18:20 > 0:18:25respected figure in Catalonia, that is the Mayor of Barcelona, who you
0:18:25 > 0:18:34know very well. She says this: " What I see is a headlong dash at
0:18:34 > 0:18:37kamikaze pace which has been concentrated with this declaration
0:18:37 > 0:18:40of independence in the name of Catalonia, but does not have the
0:18:40 > 0:18:48support of a majority of Catalan people. "well, I belong to a
0:18:48 > 0:18:54different party, so please understand that I might think
0:18:54 > 0:18:59differently. They think differently because they think she enters a
0:18:59 > 0:19:04contradiction, the Mayor of Barcelona. I am in the opposition,
0:19:04 > 0:19:11too, by the way.I appreciate that, but she is the Mayor. But a lot of
0:19:11 > 0:19:17Catalan is, given that Mr Puigdemont isn't Russell -- is in Russell,
0:19:17 > 0:19:25regard her as one of the most important figures today.-- 21. I
0:19:25 > 0:19:30respect her, but that does not mean we agree with her. -- Brussels. Why
0:19:30 > 0:19:37did you vote in the referendum? If she had to say or less? Why did she
0:19:37 > 0:19:42bigger was a kamikaze race, and then voted for this? A referendum on
0:19:42 > 0:19:46independence? That introduces a certain paradox, don't anything?
0:19:46 > 0:19:50Maybe it is because she is a practical person and she is looking
0:19:50 > 0:19:53at reality. And very briefly, because we do not have much time,
0:19:53 > 0:19:56you referred earlier to what you believed had been a mistake in
0:19:56 > 0:20:01response the European Union. I would put it to you that if you listen to
0:20:01 > 0:20:07the words, for example, European Council had Donald who said Spain is
0:20:07 > 0:20:22our only interlocutor. -- head Donald Tusk who said. If you listen
0:20:22 > 0:20:29to the tone and the words that are used by leaders, the ambition of
0:20:29 > 0:20:33Catalonia to be an independent state within the European Union does not
0:20:33 > 0:20:40have a chance of success.Look, little when it declared its
0:20:40 > 0:20:45independence and got its first recognition from Iceland almost one
0:20:45 > 0:20:50year after that. So these things are slow. You have the parliaments of
0:20:50 > 0:20:56Slovenia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, who will vote on
0:20:56 > 0:21:03independence. You are over anxious to get international recognition for
0:21:03 > 0:21:07the Catalan republic. We have patience. We will work to that. Mr
0:21:07 > 0:21:11Puigdemont is in Brussels and I'm sure he will work on that. So don't
0:21:11 > 0:21:19worry about this. -- we will work on that.I promise I won't worry. But I
0:21:19 > 0:21:26am talking about practical reality is opposed to fantasy. In terms of
0:21:26 > 0:21:35this UDI...I am sorry, sir, that is an interpretation.Let's talk about
0:21:35 > 0:21:38reality. If you believe you live in an independent nationstate, explain
0:21:38 > 0:21:46to me how you do not control your borders, in terms of the most basic
0:21:46 > 0:21:50infrastructure from airports to railroads to telephone systems. You
0:21:50 > 0:21:55are entirely dependent on Madrid, and, frankly, even for finance, you
0:21:55 > 0:22:00are entirely dependent on Madrid. So I come to the point: Is your talk of
0:22:00 > 0:22:06an independent Catalonia, right now, fantasy or reality?There was a
0:22:06 > 0:22:09declaration of independence. That is a reality. It was voted by the
0:22:09 > 0:22:13people. And then it was ratified by the Catalan parliament. There is a
0:22:13 > 0:22:17wave of oppression against that. Because the people voted and because
0:22:17 > 0:22:20the politicians and leaders of Catalonia organise that vote. Now
0:22:20 > 0:22:28that is real. It is also real that Catalonia is not an independent
0:22:28 > 0:22:32nation, right now, to all regards and purposes. But it is also true
0:22:32 > 0:22:36that always in history when they has been opposition for the Metropolis,
0:22:36 > 0:22:41that has taken some time. And that have with American independence, it
0:22:41 > 0:22:44happened with the independence of Lithuania, of Slovenia, of any
0:22:44 > 0:22:49country. Any country which has had opposition by the Metropolis.Our
0:22:49 > 0:22:59final thought, now, Mr Bosch. Over a thousand businesses have moved out
0:22:59 > 0:23:05of Catalonia because of economic fears. All of the research I have
0:23:05 > 0:23:08looked at suggest that there is no way that Catalonia can be an
0:23:08 > 0:23:13economically successful independent nationstate. Are you irresponsibly
0:23:13 > 0:23:20playing with the future of the Catalan people?No. Why don't you go
0:23:20 > 0:23:23until two hours on? They just established their main distribution
0:23:23 > 0:23:28point in Barcelona, Catalonia. Why do you talk for the people who are
0:23:28 > 0:23:35to open up hotels? Why do you talk to all of the visitors we are having
0:23:35 > 0:23:40increasingly in our town? This is especially Barcelona as a successful
0:23:40 > 0:23:44city. And nothing of that is happening. There are political moves
0:23:44 > 0:23:48of companies who are being pressured by the Spanish government to move
0:23:48 > 0:23:53out, and that is the way the Spanish government tries to seduce the
0:23:53 > 0:23:57Catalan people. Instead of accusing our leaders of sedition, which is a
0:23:57 > 0:24:02very old-fashioned crime, which they imposed, for instance, on Mahatma
0:24:02 > 0:24:09Gandhi, in 1922, over 100 years ago. It is said that they tried to seduce
0:24:09 > 0:24:12the Catalan people, probably the Spanish government would be a better
0:24:12 > 0:24:16situation keep Catalonia within the kingdom of Spain, I am sure.All
0:24:16 > 0:24:26right, Alfred Bosch, think it will be on HARDtalk.Most welcome. --
0:24:26 > 0:24:29thank you for being on.