0:00:00 > 0:00:01row fears the number of dead could now rise. -- there are.
0:00:01 > 0:00:05Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:11Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13I'm Stephen Sucker.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15Comedy is subversive.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18It finds laughter in dark and difficult places,
0:00:18 > 0:00:24but when it goes wrong things can get ugly.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26Kathy Griffin is an American stand-up comedian probably best
0:00:27 > 0:00:29known for being pictured last May holding Donald Trump's severed head
0:00:29 > 0:00:35in her hand.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38The Trump head was fake, but the outrage was real,
0:00:38 > 0:00:40from the President, the TV network which fired her,
0:00:40 > 0:00:44the FBI which investigated her, and the public which heaped abuse
0:00:44 > 0:00:47on her head.
0:00:47 > 0:00:53What was, and is, Kathy Griffin thinking?
0:01:20 > 0:01:27Kathy Griffin, welcome to HARDtalk. You'll stand up so which you are
0:01:27 > 0:01:32taking around the world is funny and Frank but to many people shocking
0:01:32 > 0:01:39and to some offensive. Do you carefully calculate how to offend?I
0:01:39 > 0:01:47do. I am an expert in offending people. I offended you in the
0:01:47 > 0:01:51dressing room because I cannot believe someone actually married
0:01:51 > 0:01:59you. Anyway, good luck to her. What I like to talk about in my head is
0:01:59 > 0:02:04talking about people saying it was a severed head. As if I went to the
0:02:04 > 0:02:10shop and bought one. I have no single day of paid work in my
0:02:10 > 0:02:17country because of the reaction. Let's start with the action.I
0:02:17 > 0:02:23thought I was the guest.Let's start with the action of choosing to go
0:02:23 > 0:02:31into the photographer's with that mask and the catch-up. -- tomato
0:02:31 > 0:02:37sauce.I have no say in the copyright of that photograph.
0:02:37 > 0:02:45Because I trusted him I kind of got screwed because he can make as much
0:02:45 > 0:02:56money from that image has it wants. Your epitaph may be about that
0:02:56 > 0:03:03moment.People at airports wanted to do it oppose like that.You must
0:03:03 > 0:03:10have known you were crossing a line. Yes, of course, that is a comedian's
0:03:10 > 0:03:16job. I like to move it and then across. But we don't, what do we do?
0:03:16 > 0:03:22Make jokes about the difference between puppies and kittens. There
0:03:22 > 0:03:25is never been a president that deserved to be shamed so much and
0:03:25 > 0:03:34the reason he had such as reaction, and his growing children...Lets
0:03:34 > 0:03:39stick with your thinking. As we tease out your career, it is
0:03:39 > 0:03:44important to understand how you make decisions. There you are with Donald
0:03:44 > 0:03:50Trump's had an you adopt a pose reminiscent of those so-called
0:03:50 > 0:03:57Islamic State fighters...And also Medusa. A lot of iconic imagery in
0:03:57 > 0:04:05comedy has been done...A movie with David Spade, there's a scene where
0:04:05 > 0:04:11they roll Meryl Streep... Head down the bowling alley. None of this
0:04:11 > 0:04:17would have happened if Donald Trump did not get freaked out about a girl
0:04:17 > 0:04:25shaming him. A girl shamed him.The beheading of the commander and chief
0:04:25 > 0:04:31and America has ideas about the security of its president. I cannot
0:04:31 > 0:04:36even count the lines you have crossed. When you talk about not
0:04:36 > 0:04:40being confused and clear about what you are doing, after this reaction,
0:04:40 > 0:04:48it you issued an apology.I am not sorry. I take the apology back
0:04:48 > 0:04:52thousand %. I made the apology because I thought people would think
0:04:52 > 0:05:02it is just the doing a shocking thing. One time I said suck it,
0:05:02 > 0:05:08Jesus and conservatives were out in the paper and that it what they like
0:05:08 > 0:05:13to spend their time and money on. My good friend Rosie O'Donnell, the
0:05:13 > 0:05:19pre-eminent expert on being trolled by this accidental President, he has
0:05:19 > 0:05:26been trolling her 14 years, and she said, what if Daniel Pearl's mother
0:05:26 > 0:05:31saw this...Daniel Pearl, the American journalist be headed in
0:05:31 > 0:05:38Pakistan.When she said that, I said, oh, my gosh. I never apologise
0:05:38 > 0:05:44for a joke but I get it. Number one, the apology was not enough the Trump
0:05:44 > 0:05:51psycho still came out at me and he was happy to have the attention away
0:05:51 > 0:05:59from Russia and all the other improprieties.When you say I went
0:05:59 > 0:06:06too far, I apologise and beg for forgiveness...It was a sincere at
0:06:06 > 0:06:14the moment. I am not worried about my career. I have two Emmys. That is
0:06:14 > 0:06:23a website called TMZ... Why it report those in real time. TMZ
0:06:23 > 0:06:30reported the cancellations of my American tour in real time. I want
0:06:30 > 0:06:38to point out I have been to Iraq and Afghanistan, has Donald Trump? I
0:06:38 > 0:06:43performed in a war zone so I know exactly what am doing and I more of
0:06:43 > 0:06:49a patriot Benny is every day of the week.You seem to believe Donald
0:06:49 > 0:06:56Trump has organised to plot against you. You seem to be accusing him of
0:06:56 > 0:06:59being behind the Secret Service investigation...Department of
0:06:59 > 0:07:06Justice. I am still on the Interpol list. I have been detained in every
0:07:06 > 0:07:11single airport at this tour...And you seriously think President Trump,
0:07:11 > 0:07:15sitting there in the White House has time to say, let's get Kathy
0:07:15 > 0:07:22Griffin.Are you not aware of this guy?It is not govern. GU find
0:07:22 > 0:07:30Donald Trump funny?I proud of this tour because I have had this Donald
0:07:30 > 0:07:35Trump for 20 years. I have known this orange full, the accidental
0:07:35 > 0:07:43President for so long. This guy shows to the opening of an envelope
0:07:43 > 0:07:48so I have met him plenty of times. Once he turned to me and said, so,
0:07:48 > 0:07:56you are a female comedian, next thing you know we will want to vote.
0:07:56 > 0:08:01He is an idiot. Whether you like him or hate him he is an extraordinary
0:08:01 > 0:08:07president...Careful. Careful. What do you mean by extraordinary
0:08:07 > 0:08:13president?Whether going on stage and slapping him off is it actually
0:08:13 > 0:08:19comedy?I have personal experience within. My current show is not just
0:08:19 > 0:08:26jokes about Donald Trump. I have had interactions with him. Now that he
0:08:26 > 0:08:30is accidentally the president through cheating etc, is sort of
0:08:30 > 0:08:35comical. It is frightening as a citizen but as a comedian with a
0:08:35 > 0:08:43goal mind. Before CNN, on NBC, as a throwaway someone said do you want
0:08:43 > 0:09:01to interview the trumps and I said, only Melania. A two-month taxpayer
0:09:01 > 0:09:07funded investigation which has never happened in the history of the
0:09:07 > 0:09:10United States so, if nothing else, respect the history of the fact that
0:09:10 > 0:09:16you're looking at the only woman, an American citizen which the entire
0:09:16 > 0:09:23White House, the Department of Justice and Fox studio in the words
0:09:23 > 0:09:29of the little monster, we want to decimate Kathy Griffin it was unjust
0:09:29 > 0:09:36the threats to my mother, to my sister as she was dying of cancer,
0:09:36 > 0:09:41yes, it is a campaign and well documented.The fact that you lost
0:09:41 > 0:09:46your sister in the middle of all this.That is why I shake my head
0:09:46 > 0:09:54and I know I look like 11th from stranger things. Many of my friends
0:09:54 > 0:10:02were dear Balde dyke we died instantly sister.This sounds like
0:10:02 > 0:10:08an incredibly painful moment. I just wonder, why on earth you are now
0:10:08 > 0:10:11back on the road doing stand-up comedy, engaging with the very
0:10:11 > 0:10:19people he knew say tried to bring you down. You are still getting vile
0:10:19 > 0:10:23abuse on Twitter because, frankly, you still engaged... Hang on, it is
0:10:23 > 0:10:32two ways.What comedians do not? Name one. The point is, what do you
0:10:32 > 0:10:37want to play this game?They are playing with my life. He is trying
0:10:37 > 0:10:43to stop me from making a living. I want to be a case study. I am clear
0:10:43 > 0:10:44to stop me from making a living. I want to be a case study. I am clear,
0:10:44 > 0:10:52I want people colour, LGBT people to not go through this again. This
0:10:52 > 0:10:56should not happen to an American citizen. My point of doing this
0:10:56 > 0:11:02tour, believe it or not, it is not about me, I want younger people to
0:11:02 > 0:11:06look and say if they couldn't take that old bird down, they cannot take
0:11:06 > 0:11:11me down because this should not happen to an American citizen.I'd
0:11:11 > 0:11:18be death threats continuing today? Yes. How do you handle them? I am
0:11:18 > 0:11:24all over the map. I will have days where I will be crying, days where I
0:11:24 > 0:11:30am justified. There is one which I read on stage. A lot of the Trump
0:11:30 > 0:11:36fans are not into the grammar and it gets so crazy it is funny. One thing
0:11:36 > 0:11:41I have done my whole life, we like to take something dark and difficult
0:11:41 > 0:11:46and spin it and spin it in the week and make it funny and relatable.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50Sometimes I will just read a death threat on stage and hopefully make
0:11:50 > 0:11:54hilarious comments. May show currently is different than my
0:11:54 > 0:12:01regular act because now it has a lady at Tuitt that it never did and
0:12:01 > 0:12:05I got a standing ovation at the Sydney Opera House and trust me
0:12:05 > 0:12:11nobody in Hollywood cares one bid. It seems to be in a position where
0:12:11 > 0:12:15you are bringing in big crowds in big arenas around the world and you
0:12:15 > 0:12:20cannot get a gig in the US.And no one will lift a finger. We will see,
0:12:20 > 0:12:27never say never but the point that no one will lift a finger hurts. I
0:12:27 > 0:12:31have never been more on my home and yet I have never had more fun with
0:12:31 > 0:12:37the material.We will get back to the way it so best works in the US
0:12:37 > 0:12:43because it raises questions but sticking to the personal for the
0:12:43 > 0:12:47moment. You talk about how you take the dark stuff and spin it around
0:12:47 > 0:12:52until it is comedic as well as painful but you do that to an
0:12:52 > 0:12:56extreme. You pick apart your life and some of the darkest corners in
0:12:56 > 0:13:01your up ringing in a way that I cannot think of many other people
0:13:01 > 0:13:05would be able to do, including abusive behaviour inside your
0:13:05 > 0:13:14family.My brother is a paedophile. All the Harvey Weinstein things I am
0:13:14 > 0:13:20aware of certain triggers. I was sexually assaulted myself, twice,
0:13:20 > 0:13:27and frankly my narrative is a little bit more about ageism and misogyny
0:13:27 > 0:13:35and that is what I have experienced more than any other challenge.Is
0:13:35 > 0:13:42there not some stuff inside your family that fed them as much as you,
0:13:42 > 0:13:48it would be better not to put out their.No. I do not cover for
0:13:48 > 0:13:53paedophiles, even if he was my brother. The truth hurts. You have a
0:13:53 > 0:13:57paedophile in your family, you think it is not effective? He was never
0:13:57 > 0:14:03convicted. He did go to prison for other offences but he would talk to
0:14:03 > 0:14:07me about it in a way that was unbelievable so when you grow up
0:14:07 > 0:14:13like that, it turned me into the type of comedian, at the and Thai
0:14:13 > 0:14:23air land where my comedy is very down to less. -- anti-Ellen. My
0:14:23 > 0:14:29audience is forward thinking people, people who cannot be shocked and
0:14:29 > 0:14:37that is why I doing well here and overseas.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40Some authors find there are certain things they cannot write while their
0:14:40 > 0:14:44parents are still alive. Does your mother come and watch your show?
0:14:44 > 0:14:48Share me comes to senior Los Angeles, she won't get on a plane
0:14:48 > 0:14:52any more because she might get the runs. Look, that is how I was
0:14:52 > 0:14:56raised, she talks about getting the runs. Old people talk about their
0:14:56 > 0:15:01ailments a lot.Comedy, hasn't always been you, because you have a
0:15:01 > 0:15:05difficult up bringing and complicated life, hasn't always been
0:15:05 > 0:15:09a form of therapy?Let me be clear, my life now much more difficult in
0:15:09 > 0:15:13my bringing. My up and in was on this typical for a comedian. --
0:15:13 > 0:15:20upbringing. But my journey now in my 40s, 50s, it has never been harder
0:15:20 > 0:15:26than now. That is why I am speaking out now. The people who kept me
0:15:26 > 0:15:31down, the Jeff Zuckers of the world. I did find a half hours on CNN, the
0:15:31 > 0:15:35highest ratings in ten years, I am not a CNN employee. All those people
0:15:35 > 0:15:39who hate CNN or whatever, I worked there one night a year. And I got
0:15:39 > 0:15:42fired.Here is what I see is a paradox...You should see what
0:15:42 > 0:15:47happens when I tried to get a raise. I dare say many people watching this
0:15:47 > 0:15:51will have been there themselves.I just want women to know, when Cheryl
0:15:51 > 0:15:55Sandberg says Lingy and, in my case I fell on my face and broke the
0:15:55 > 0:16:03nose. To her. -- says lean in.Why do you continue, clearly, to have
0:16:03 > 0:16:07this drive and ambition to make it in showbiz? You have made it, you
0:16:07 > 0:16:15have 12 Emmys. But you got so fired up by the fact that CNN fired you...
0:16:15 > 0:16:19No, the CNN thing... Let me finish the question. You had showbiz in so
0:16:19 > 0:16:25many ways.How dare you, I love it! You have talked about a business
0:16:25 > 0:16:31that has, over time, it encouraged, if not forced you to get cosmetic
0:16:31 > 0:16:34surgery, to get so sick with different forms of losing weight
0:16:34 > 0:16:38because of a particular way they want women to look on screen...Two
0:16:38 > 0:16:44nose jobs, all that.You took speed to lose weight.That is just funny.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48I took speed back when it was called speckled eggs. I don't know if they
0:16:48 > 0:16:52even make those any more. But when I was 19, working in a shop, I took
0:16:52 > 0:16:57speed to try to be thin because I had so many agents say if I was then
0:16:57 > 0:17:01and I wasn't so ugly I might work. And I believe them at that age.Men,
0:17:01 > 0:17:05it has to be said, don't suffer in the same way. I've never been told,
0:17:05 > 0:17:10God knows I probably need it, to get a head job or a face job. And
0:17:10 > 0:17:15probably do not suffer the same way that women have these demands on
0:17:15 > 0:17:19them on screen, especially in the US. So why do you still want to do
0:17:19 > 0:17:25it?Firstly, I love it. I really love it.That's weird.How can you
0:17:25 > 0:17:28say that? Nothing better than making people laugh.How can you love being
0:17:28 > 0:17:32in a business which objectified as you, demeans you, judges you on the
0:17:32 > 0:17:36things you do not regard truly important? Yet you love it?Because
0:17:36 > 0:17:42I think I have finally figured out a way to run it like a boss. I have
0:17:42 > 0:17:46all male employees. Every piece of material is mine. I do not have
0:17:46 > 0:17:50writers lack many other thing comedians. Like I have I have done
0:17:50 > 0:17:5423 stand-up comedy specials, and I just wanted to be in the Guinness
0:17:54 > 0:17:57Book of World Records for younger women do not have defied that stigma
0:17:57 > 0:18:02of women not being funny. -- have to fight that stigma. I like to set
0:18:02 > 0:18:06these records are after I'm gone, young women can say maybe they have
0:18:06 > 0:18:10a shot. She did it, so I will try. It is not even just about the
0:18:10 > 0:18:14demands on looks and weight and everything else. It is also a basic
0:18:14 > 0:18:19sort of thing about money, isn't it? Of course. I would kill to make 80
0:18:19 > 0:18:23cents on the dollar. When women say, making 80 cents on the dollar, in my
0:18:23 > 0:18:27business I make a nickel on the dollar. You think I make anywhere
0:18:27 > 0:18:33near my former grounding student Will Ferrell? I was his teacher. You
0:18:33 > 0:18:38think I make the same money as Adam Sandler?This is a quote from the
0:18:38 > 0:18:42recently. I'm not saying there is in progress, but there is not a woman
0:18:42 > 0:18:45in Hollywood who can really sign a cheque, for example, a woman Rupert
0:18:45 > 0:18:49Murdoch. What is going to change that? It and the people with the
0:18:49 > 0:18:52money and the power to get more women in those positions?First of
0:18:52 > 0:18:56all, women have to not be discouraged out of the business. One
0:18:56 > 0:18:59thing, obviously, people are talking about are the Weinstein. One of the
0:18:59 > 0:19:02things that breaks my heart is all the women who either became addicted
0:19:02 > 0:19:06to drugs after being raped, how could you not, or just left the
0:19:06 > 0:19:10business, how could you not. One thing I want to do is, stay in it. I
0:19:10 > 0:19:17am not going to let them wind. And luckily, like I said, when I do be
0:19:17 > 0:19:21Vicar in Dublin, when I do the Palladium, it is two hours,
0:19:21 > 0:19:24sometimes longer, and I can just breathe. And I love it. I'm not a
0:19:24 > 0:19:28snob about comedy. I don't care if it is a funny commercial, a funny
0:19:28 > 0:19:33sitcom, I've done it all. I've done a reality show, a talk show. Any
0:19:33 > 0:19:36opportunity to make people laugh, I cherish it.You say, I'm not going
0:19:36 > 0:19:39to let them wind. In this conversation we've already
0:19:39 > 0:19:42acknowledged that right now your career in America is effectively
0:19:42 > 0:19:46over. You are not getting the live gigs, you are not getting the TV
0:19:46 > 0:19:51work. Do you even want to be in America animal?Yeah. It is my home.
0:19:51 > 0:19:55We will see what happens. Anything can happen. I'm going to finish this
0:19:55 > 0:19:59tour, I'm going to go home, and I don't know what's going to happen.
0:19:59 > 0:20:03It is frightening to me, to not have, like they said, a day of paid
0:20:03 > 0:20:07work. And you should know, all the celebrities I make fun of, they
0:20:07 > 0:20:11always committed host their charity gigs for free, so they hate me until
0:20:11 > 0:20:15the free performer. Chelsea and Sarah said no. Anyway, I love doing
0:20:15 > 0:20:19it and I will keep doing it. Thank goodness stand-up is the one thing
0:20:19 > 0:20:22that even a horrible man, and I could list the names right now,
0:20:22 > 0:20:26can't stop me from doing. Because as long as there is an audience and a
0:20:26 > 0:20:30mouth and a microphone, then I can do that. That's what I'm doing now.
0:20:30 > 0:20:35Do you feel patriotic?I think, like I said, you don't just go to
0:20:35 > 0:20:38Afghanistan as your pager. You don't go do stand-up in this Pakistan and
0:20:38 > 0:20:49Kuwait and Iraq unless you a patriot. I am or pager at it than
0:20:49 > 0:20:53any of those Nazi Tom supporters. I think our president is a Nazi. I
0:20:53 > 0:20:58think people should be frightened. I think there is an actual Nazi, or at
0:20:58 > 0:21:03least somewhat Nazi-leaning, in the White House. Wake up.We began the
0:21:03 > 0:21:06interview would you saying that sort of thing and we are ending the
0:21:06 > 0:21:09interview with that sort of thing... Because everybody is afraid to say
0:21:09 > 0:21:12it, especially the American journalists.The way that you say
0:21:12 > 0:21:16it, and the fact you are so determined to say it, suggests to me
0:21:16 > 0:21:19that you burn your bridges in America and networks who have to
0:21:19 > 0:21:23ensure that they sort of appeal to a wide range of different people
0:21:23 > 0:21:27across the nation are not going to put you on television.Are you nuts?
0:21:27 > 0:21:30Wait until I do the first thing that gets ratings. They will come running
0:21:30 > 0:21:36back. That's all a care about. -- they care about. I do one thing that
0:21:36 > 0:21:40gets ratings, boom, they are back. I've done it for times in my career.
0:21:40 > 0:21:44It is a merry-go-round. Up and down, I learn so much from idea departed
0:21:44 > 0:21:51friend Joan Rivers about riding the wave. -- might dear departed friend.
0:21:51 > 0:21:55She was fearless, Peerless, and didn't give a you know what. I think
0:21:55 > 0:21:58that is essential for comedy.That is interesting, didn't give a unit
0:21:58 > 0:22:02what. Given the choices you have made all your career, you must have
0:22:02 > 0:22:06the thickest skin imaginable. You cannot afford to show pain and
0:22:06 > 0:22:10vulnerability. Yet in the fallout from the Trump head incident, you
0:22:10 > 0:22:14did show pain and vulnerability.And I think... I cried onstage, I cried
0:22:14 > 0:22:20on stage. Yes. Look, this is all new material. I'm standing on stage at
0:22:20 > 0:22:23the Sydney Opera House...You couldn't afford to be vulnerable,
0:22:23 > 0:22:27not the way you have chosen to run your career.I don't agree with
0:22:27 > 0:22:31that. Folks who come to my show know they will get something real. They
0:22:31 > 0:22:34know that my act is very improvisational, it changes all the
0:22:34 > 0:22:38time, and I love changing it. When I play Indian I will do material
0:22:38 > 0:22:42unique to that city. When I play in Antwerp, I can't find it on a map,
0:22:42 > 0:22:46but I will make it funny. I love changing it. That keeps it fresh and
0:22:46 > 0:22:51funny.I want to end with some words from Ricky Gervais, I don't know if
0:22:51 > 0:23:03you know him, him... He says, he has no problem offending people, but he
0:23:03 > 0:23:06says, yes, we comedians have the right to say horrible things, and
0:23:06 > 0:23:11everybody else has the right to hate you to doing it. You say horrible
0:23:11 > 0:23:14things, you have to take the consequences. Are you prepared to
0:23:14 > 0:23:18live the rest of your life on that basis? Saying horrible things and
0:23:18 > 0:23:22then taking the consequences?I think I have proven that. Never has
0:23:22 > 0:23:29a comedian been on the Interpol list and the Five Eyes list. Obviously I
0:23:29 > 0:23:33am willing to take it.But how long can you do it? You are in your 50s
0:23:33 > 0:23:38now.I50 seven. I was detained here, I will be detained at the next
0:23:38 > 0:23:42airport. You know what I think in the next Anton Enus? Can I put this
0:23:42 > 0:23:47in the act? I might mention that guy, he is kind of funny, I will put
0:23:47 > 0:23:52this in the act.It is a lonely life.No, I have a great team. My
0:23:52 > 0:23:55team manager is my boyfriend. We travel the world together. I love
0:23:55 > 0:23:59it. I love doing it. And you know what, kind of without the other
0:23:59 > 0:24:03stuff, the agents, and to the first time in my life, actually don't have
0:24:03 > 0:24:07somebody saying, you are an ugly old hat, stop. I don't have those people
0:24:07 > 0:24:11around any more. So I have at a little smaller and I just get to do
0:24:11 > 0:24:16my job and I love it. And at the end of the show, they stand.Kathy
0:24:16 > 0:24:20Griffin, it is the end of the show. I can't stand... Get up, Steve!But
0:24:20 > 0:24:24thank you very much.Thank you. I am a big fan.