0:00:00 > 0:00:01Mr Mugabe's wife Grace looks much closer to becoming
0:00:01 > 0:00:02president.
0:00:02 > 0:00:07It's just past half past two.
0:00:08 > 0:00:11Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:12 > 0:00:19Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. Authority is a priceless
0:00:19 > 0:00:24commodity in politics. It is not usually measured, but when they pry
0:00:24 > 0:00:27Minister loses it, well, then governing becomes a perilous task.
0:00:27 > 0:00:33So it made be in Britain today: Theresa May has lost two Cabinet
0:00:33 > 0:00:37ministers in a week, and her own team is divided over Brexit and
0:00:37 > 0:00:43seems unsure about its core message. My guess today is the increasingly
0:00:43 > 0:00:47influential conservative MP and staunch Brexiteer, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:00:47 > 0:00:56Can the Tories get out of the hole they are and? -- they are in.
0:01:17 > 0:01:23Jacob Rees-Mogg, welcome to HARDtalk Thank you very much.You are an
0:01:23 > 0:01:27increasingly important backbench member of a party.The government
0:01:27 > 0:01:31representing a party seems to be staggering between misfortune and
0:01:31 > 0:01:38disaster.Why is this happening? Well, first of all, I think there
0:01:38 > 0:01:41have inevitably been difficulties, and most of these come from failing
0:01:41 > 0:01:45to win a majority in the election in June. But the events that have taken
0:01:45 > 0:01:52place over the last couple of weeks: The two ministerial resignations,
0:01:52 > 0:01:57these are things that happened to governments of all kinds.Well, they
0:01:57 > 0:02:02are not really the sorts of things that regularly happen. We have Priti
0:02:02 > 0:02:06Patel who resigned, fairly asked to resign after the most extraordinary
0:02:06 > 0:02:10dramatic gasp in which he appeared to go completely freelance,
0:02:10 > 0:02:17diplomatically speaking, in his visit to Israel.There are
0:02:17 > 0:02:23resignations this over decors. The best was Peter Mandelson, twice,
0:02:23 > 0:02:26essentially from the same government. This happens to
0:02:26 > 0:02:29governance with big majorities in small majority. It happens over
0:02:29 > 0:02:33bridges and ministerial code, and sex scandals. It happens in
0:02:33 > 0:02:38government, and it does not to the weakness or strength of the
0:02:38 > 0:02:41government. That is indicated by other factors. It does signal that
0:02:41 > 0:02:46this Prime Minister is seeing her authority draining away.Priti
0:02:46 > 0:02:51Patel, to continue with her case, it surely would not have felt able to
0:02:51 > 0:02:57undertake the diplomatic or freed -- diplomatic freelancing she did were
0:02:57 > 0:03:00it not for a lack of authority at the centre of government.I think
0:03:00 > 0:03:04you are seeing things that do not exist. If you go back to Lord
0:03:04 > 0:03:08Mandelson.I would prefer to stick with current events.It is quite
0:03:08 > 0:03:11important because you need to get a perspective as to whether this
0:03:11 > 0:03:14resignation is something exceptionally unusual or something
0:03:14 > 0:03:19which happens to all governments. There are mum when Lord Mandelson
0:03:19 > 0:03:24resigned it was because he had accepted a loan from someone in
0:03:24 > 0:03:27another ministry, and did not declare, in breach of ministerial
0:03:27 > 0:03:31codes. This was embarrassing to Tony Blair at the time. But it was
0:03:31 > 0:03:35unimportant in the grand scheme of the Tony Blair government.Ancient
0:03:35 > 0:03:39history, but I would rather continue discussing what is happening in your
0:03:39 > 0:03:48government today.It is not mine, it is Her Majesty's. The key to this is
0:03:48 > 0:03:52whether there is something unusual about the problems this gamut is
0:03:52 > 0:03:56facing, and whether they come, as you propose, from weakness, or if
0:03:56 > 0:04:02these are something that happens to governments not just of recent
0:04:02 > 0:04:06decades, but over centuries. If you want to go back to the Stonehouse
0:04:06 > 0:04:10affair...I would prefer to focus on whether this government can
0:04:10 > 0:04:16continue. We know that a significant batch bench MP these days called for
0:04:16 > 0:04:20Theresa May to leave and called for a campaign to topple her. He got a
0:04:20 > 0:04:26significant number of MPs to back in, but not enough.Hold on. I don't
0:04:26 > 0:04:32think we found out who any of these Cabinet ministers... No, I think
0:04:32 > 0:04:38that when names up bandied about, it is useful to know what those names -
0:04:38 > 0:04:45who those names belong to. I also think there is something, and you
0:04:45 > 0:04:52said it flatteringly about me, as well, but something about being
0:04:52 > 0:04:55influential and a backbencher. If you are influential, you another
0:04:55 > 0:04:59backbencher.Let's get back to Boris Johnson. He misleadingly suggested
0:04:59 > 0:05:02that a British citizen who is currently being detained in prison
0:05:02 > 0:05:10in around, arrested last year, it is suggested that she was in Iran train
0:05:10 > 0:05:14journalists. That is untrue. She was there on holiday. Boris Johnson
0:05:14 > 0:05:21surely to go. Personally that is not just exacerbated a humanitarian
0:05:21 > 0:05:25crisis for that family, but also a terrible dramatic gasp.Boris
0:05:25 > 0:05:32Johnson is giving evidence of an extensive period to the foreign
0:05:32 > 0:05:43affairs Select Committee. He made a mistake. I think you can...Can you
0:05:43 > 0:05:48afford to miss the?Is clarified it to make the position clear. I don't
0:05:48 > 0:05:53think you can expect ministers to resign every time they mispeak. You
0:05:53 > 0:05:56need continuity in government and you need to recognise that ministers
0:05:56 > 0:06:00will make mistakes. The question is the level of seriousness. And I
0:06:00 > 0:06:04don't think this meets the test of that sort of seriousness.Your
0:06:04 > 0:06:10perspective is curly different to that of her family. They are
0:06:10 > 0:06:19appalled by what happened, not least because Iranian media reports that
0:06:19 > 0:06:23this is proof that she was sent by the British government.I have
0:06:23 > 0:06:26obvious is seen as reports. They've come out recently in relation to
0:06:26 > 0:06:30what the Iranian government is doing. It is difficult that the
0:06:30 > 0:06:31mackerel
0:06:34 > 0:06:40-- it is difficult that the Iranian government is handling this way. But
0:06:40 > 0:06:45they have unfairly and unjustly detained to me and prevented her
0:06:45 > 0:06:50from seeing her own children and family, and doing this on the bogus
0:06:50 > 0:06:54pretext of spying. We need to look at where the real fault is rather
0:06:54 > 0:07:09than in the mispeaking.Eight column in the Times here has suggested that
0:07:09 > 0:07:14Boris Johnson has proved himself unfit for high office. -- A column.
0:07:14 > 0:07:24It is a readable: -- is a readable column but is not infallible. This
0:07:24 > 0:07:29was written by a long critical of Boris Johnson. He used to be one of
0:07:29 > 0:07:32the leading admirers. Newspaper columns, which my father used to
0:07:32 > 0:07:35write for many years, have to ensure that they have something interesting
0:07:35 > 0:07:39to say, day after day, and to meet the deadline for the next day's
0:07:39 > 0:07:44news.They are not wholly read. Michael Fallon had to resign because
0:07:44 > 0:07:48of allegations of sexual impropriety. We have seen Priti
0:07:48 > 0:07:57Patel resign. On education, Theresa May has chosen a simple one for one
0:07:57 > 0:08:01approach of a slob. Is it not time for a bigger and more thorough
0:08:01 > 0:08:05reshuffle, to put some new energy and new blood into this government,
0:08:05 > 0:08:12which, friendly, too many people, is failing. -- approach of a swap.She
0:08:12 > 0:08:18has a wonderful and able Cabinet and has many people in the Conservative
0:08:18 > 0:08:23Party who came in in 2015...My question is if it is time to a
0:08:23 > 0:08:27bigger reshuffle?Not necessarily. I think we have a good quality
0:08:27 > 0:08:31Cabinet. We have stable and serious individuals in it that are doing
0:08:31 > 0:08:38important work. I don't think - as it happens, I don't think that a big
0:08:38 > 0:08:44reshuffle is the biggest sign of strength. Ie don't want to talk
0:08:44 > 0:08:48about history again, but I go back to the night of the Long knives. It
0:08:48 > 0:08:55was a sign that control was being lost. Greater love has no man than
0:08:55 > 0:08:59someone who lays down his political life for his friend was what I think
0:08:59 > 0:09:06Thorpe said. I think there is a lot of ability in the government.Do you
0:09:06 > 0:09:10have paused to think about how the government looks when viewed, for
0:09:10 > 0:09:15example, from Europe? Because this is - the issue of the aid is the
0:09:15 > 0:09:19Brexit negotiations. So it rather matters how perceptions are now of
0:09:19 > 0:09:23the British government in Europe and across the European capitals. What
0:09:23 > 0:09:28do you think they are like?Well, I think there is what they want to say
0:09:28 > 0:09:32and what they think, obviously. If you think the Theresa May's got 10%
0:09:32 > 0:09:37more in the election we had them Angela Merkel got in hers, Theresa
0:09:37 > 0:09:44May does not... Look at the Spanish government. Would you rather be the
0:09:44 > 0:09:51Prime Minister of the UK all of Spain at the moment?Let me give you
0:09:51 > 0:09:56a different perspective...Compared to continental governments, Her
0:09:56 > 0:10:01Majesty's government is quite stable.The head of the Foreign
0:10:01 > 0:10:06Office said that if you are in a European capital that it looks
0:10:06 > 0:10:10chaotic, confused, and drifting, when there are big issues around
0:10:10 > 0:10:13Brexit. No clear line about the future relationship with the EU and
0:10:13 > 0:10:17a whole series of other crises as well. Britain is simply not a real
0:10:17 > 0:10:23player.I think this is absurdly overstated. There is a clear idea
0:10:23 > 0:10:30for Brexit, and that was enunciated by the Prime Minister in her speech
0:10:30 > 0:10:33to make speeches. There are parts of those that are not enthusiastic
0:10:33 > 0:10:39about...We have to talk about that. But it is a clear manifesto of a
0:10:39 > 0:10:43watch is looking for. She has been generous in her office to the
0:10:43 > 0:10:48European Union. The government she leads is stronger in many, but not
0:10:48 > 0:10:54all, but many European governments. Especially Germany. The German
0:10:54 > 0:10:59government is very weak at the moment. It has not formed or agreed
0:10:59 > 0:11:04its coalition.You talk of European weakness. The 1.8 think that is
0:11:04 > 0:11:10clear is that the EU 27 art united when it comes to Brexit
0:11:10 > 0:11:15negotiations. There will be no abolition of the talks to the next
0:11:15 > 0:11:19phase, and that is to talk about trade and the transitional
0:11:19 > 0:11:23arrangements, until, and this came out at a meeting of the twin seven
0:11:23 > 0:11:27ambassadors specifically talk about Brexit, no move to that until they
0:11:27 > 0:11:31are happy with the cash that is going to be promised by Britain to
0:11:31 > 0:11:36cover the costs of our departure.-- 27 ambassadors. The counter to that
0:11:36 > 0:11:39is that the financial framework is insolvent if we leave without a
0:11:39 > 0:11:46deal. That is what they are facing. You think hardball will work?Yes.
0:11:46 > 0:11:56They are desperate for it pretty £7 billion. -- desperate for £27
0:11:56 > 0:12:02billion.So you are saying great, no deal, walk away with out giving any
0:12:02 > 0:12:08money?I am saying is in their just to make a deal. Their current budget
0:12:08 > 0:12:12is insolvent without a contribution. This is a powerful card. Of course
0:12:12 > 0:12:16they say they want the money upfront. Because once we have paid
0:12:16 > 0:12:20the money, they don't have to give us very much.So this is important.
0:12:20 > 0:12:27You are saying it may not be right to call you influential, but is a
0:12:27 > 0:12:33must not go beyond the 27 billion euros that she has promised.-- 30
0:12:33 > 0:12:40billion euros. That is generous. -- 20 billion euros.
0:12:43 > 0:12:48Not only do some countries get less in the long-term, but they get less
0:12:48 > 0:12:51in April 2000 19. Suddenly expenditure needs to stop or more
0:12:51 > 0:12:59money needs to be raised.Somebody's bluff will be called. -- 2019. You
0:12:59 > 0:13:06said could be Europe, but it could be Theresa May's government, who
0:13:06 > 0:13:10could find there could be a no deal wrecks it because the Europeans
0:13:10 > 0:13:17won't give ground on wanting more than 20 billion.They WTA Brexit is
0:13:17 > 0:13:21a good want the United Kingdom. It frees us from the protectionist
0:13:21 > 0:13:24customs union that makes prices for British consumers higher and
0:13:24 > 0:13:30basically protects inefficient continental European industries.
0:13:30 > 0:13:36They WTO exit saves us a lot of money. It takes is a long way to
0:13:36 > 0:13:41meet in a commitment that was...The WTO Brexit you are talking about is
0:13:41 > 0:13:46a fantasy. Do you know how many countries the UK trades with at the
0:13:46 > 0:13:57moment on WTO rules?57% of our trade.24 countries.57% of our
0:13:57 > 0:14:04trade is not with EU countries.But most of our most important trading
0:14:04 > 0:14:09partners in the EU bloc.No, you mistake the deals. Most of those
0:14:09 > 0:14:12deals are joint competent steels that we have agreed to individually
0:14:12 > 0:14:16as well. Most of those deals, the counter parties have indicated that
0:14:16 > 0:14:18they are to continue this.
0:14:23 > 0:14:28You aren't reading what I am reading. Many details on trade and
0:14:28 > 0:14:35legal issues say the idea we can revert to WTO rules is pure fantasy.
0:14:35 > 0:14:41It is straightforward. I was speaking to the Singaporean High
0:14:41 > 0:14:49Commissioner for example. They are ready to do so because it is a
0:14:49 > 0:15:02multi-party agreement. Those trends -- transferrals are simple.It
0:15:02 > 0:15:08depends who you talk to. It depends who you talk to. Recently you talked
0:15:08 > 0:15:16to the head of the CBI. She says her members are deeply alarmed. 60% of
0:15:16 > 0:15:22companies expect they must have contingency plans for a crashing out
0:15:22 > 0:15:27no deal Brexit by the end of next March unless there is a breakthrough
0:15:27 > 0:15:36before that.CBI gets money from the EU. It is the EU funded CBI.What
0:15:36 > 0:15:40about individual chief executives? Well...This person says a few
0:15:40 > 0:15:48months ago the UK government said we would be certain to have a deal. He
0:15:48 > 0:15:52says if we have to decide some future investment, of course, the
0:15:52 > 0:15:57key point is going to be the competitiveness of this country in
0:15:57 > 0:16:03the future.You talked about the CBI. They wanted us to join Estonia.
0:16:03 > 0:16:10They were wrong. They wanted us to join the euro to be they were wrong.
0:16:10 > 0:16:17The CBI is hopeless.If I may say so...The CBI is the most
0:16:17 > 0:16:25consistently wrong body in the country.They are listening to what
0:16:25 > 0:16:28their members are saying, the distances of written. This quote is
0:16:28 > 0:16:36from the editor. -- the businesses of Britain. -- Toyota. They no
0:16:36 > 0:16:41longer have the confidence to stay in Britain and say investment
0:16:41 > 0:16:52decisions will be made accordingly. What are Toyota worried?They will
0:16:52 > 0:16:59no this is how it works.Why do you think they are worried?Why is it
0:16:59 > 0:17:03that if people are so worried about investing that in 2016 the UK
0:17:03 > 0:17:09received its largest ever FDI and a high share of all EU FDI coming into
0:17:09 > 0:17:17the European Union? We should watch what businesses are doing and how
0:17:17 > 0:17:22much they are investing, not what it PR machines are saying.You don't
0:17:22 > 0:17:27agree with the key points of Theresa May's position on how she once the
0:17:27 > 0:17:32negotiations to go. She wants a two-year transition, and during it,
0:17:32 > 0:17:37we will accept all of the rules of the EU, including the European Court
0:17:37 > 0:17:42of Justice, like the printable freedom of movement, while we
0:17:42 > 0:17:54negotiate the long-term deal. -- principle of.They should have no
0:17:54 > 0:18:01involvement after we have left. We have not left the EU if they are
0:18:01 > 0:18:08involved.Can you imagine voting against that?Let me finish. If
0:18:08 > 0:18:13those two things apply it is not a transition, it is remaining in the
0:18:13 > 0:18:17EU for an extra two years. I think that would not meet the conditions
0:18:17 > 0:18:23of the vote in June last year.That is an interesting characterisation.
0:18:23 > 0:18:28I am asking you, would that be a dealbreaker and would you as a Tory
0:18:28 > 0:18:35MP vote against that deal?The ECG is a dealbreaker. We must not remain
0:18:35 > 0:18:41under their jurisdiction.If you and like-minded colleagues voted against
0:18:41 > 0:18:46it...If that is what she wants she will win a vote in the House of
0:18:46 > 0:18:52Commons no matter what I think.You don't know what Labour will do.They
0:18:52 > 0:18:57will not vote down a vote including the ECG.Talking about the Tory
0:18:57 > 0:19:04party. We have had Nick Balls, a close confidant of David Cameron and
0:19:04 > 0:19:11minister in the Cameron Parliament, he says all talk of austerity has to
0:19:11 > 0:19:17end. It is over as far as he is concerned. You are an MP who has
0:19:17 > 0:19:20consistently supported for example all the cuts to the welfare budget,
0:19:20 > 0:19:27the benefit system, do you feel the Tories need to develop a message
0:19:27 > 0:19:32that austerity is over?I think that Nick Balls is one of the most
0:19:32 > 0:19:36important thinkers in the Tory party and always worth listening to. His
0:19:36 > 0:19:42point is that the debt as a percentage of GDP was over 20% in
0:19:42 > 0:19:472010 and now it is under 3% and does not require emergency measures. But
0:19:47 > 0:19:51we still need to live within our means. It is a question of whether
0:19:51 > 0:19:57money should be spent, how it should be spent, and what the parity is.
0:19:57 > 0:20:03But most of the work of austerity has been done. As for welfare
0:20:03 > 0:20:07changes, most of my support was because I think they will deliver
0:20:07 > 0:20:12welfare better. Universal Credit is not a money-saving scheme, it is to
0:20:12 > 0:20:15help it will get back into work and to look at them as individuals
0:20:15 > 0:20:23rather than to categorise them as welfare depend on people and to let
0:20:23 > 0:20:28them live the life they can lead. It is the transformation of welfare
0:20:28 > 0:20:32that is important.Your voice matters. You are very conservative
0:20:32 > 0:20:39on a number of issues. You are an observant Catholic. On abortion, you
0:20:39 > 0:20:43have been honest and clear the regard abortion as immoral. It is
0:20:43 > 0:20:49against your belief. And you will always campaign to curtail it
0:20:49 > 0:20:54wherever you can. Against the wishes, it is clear, of a big
0:20:54 > 0:20:59majority of the British people. There are a variety of polls. There
0:20:59 > 0:21:03always are. I think the key point here is where do you think life
0:21:03 > 0:21:07begins. If you think it is conception, then, you have to
0:21:07 > 0:21:12protect it, you have a duty to protect it.And even when a woman
0:21:12 > 0:21:16wants an abortion after rape, you say that is wrong?I think a light
0:21:16 > 0:21:20has been created and is taking that life does not put right the grave
0:21:20 > 0:21:28wrong that has already taken place. -- life. We can argue about polls,
0:21:28 > 0:21:32but roughly 70% of British people do not agree with you that abortion is
0:21:32 > 0:21:36wrong, and they believe people who want abortion should be able to have
0:21:36 > 0:21:42them. That is 24 weeks in the pregnancy according to current laws
0:21:42 > 0:21:46stopping my question is this, if you are ambitious to play a role,
0:21:46 > 0:21:51perhaps not leader, but influential, is it possible to hold the thoughts
0:21:51 > 0:21:56you do on gay marriage and abortion, out of touch with the country, is it
0:21:56 > 0:22:02possible to play a leadership role with your views?Umm, well, I think
0:22:02 > 0:22:10this doesn't actually matter, that my job is to represent the people of
0:22:10 > 0:22:19North East Somerset. I set out what I believe and they decide whether to
0:22:19 > 0:22:24vote to have me. They agree with Brexit and it will have a more
0:22:24 > 0:22:28immediate effect than my views on abortion and other moral issues.
0:22:28 > 0:22:35Including euthanasia, the most important of my views. But political
0:22:35 > 0:22:39life is about standing up for what you believe in and not trying to
0:22:39 > 0:22:49climb the greasy pole. That is a secondary task.We want leaders who
0:22:49 > 0:22:58are honest about their beliefs, but what about representation? I am
0:22:58 > 0:23:02thinking of Tim Farron who quit the job saying because he is a devout
0:23:02 > 0:23:07Christian and does not believe in gay marriage, for example, he said
0:23:07 > 0:23:10he found himself completely torn between living as a faithful
0:23:10 > 0:23:15Christian and serving as a political leader. He found it impossible.I am
0:23:15 > 0:23:20not putting myself forward as a political leader, as you know. We
0:23:20 > 0:23:25live in a country with people being entitled to religious beliefs and we
0:23:25 > 0:23:29have freedom of religion in this country. Inevitably, people will not
0:23:29 > 0:23:37always agree with me, or even new. Many people don't agree with Theresa
0:23:37 > 0:23:46May. Get a leader has to emerge. -- yet. Many people have confidence in
0:23:46 > 0:23:52the leader. It would be absurd if religious belief occluded people
0:23:52 > 0:23:58from...Do you feel you are in tune with your own country?It depends on
0:23:58 > 0:24:03what subject. There are some things I find I am in close agreement with
0:24:03 > 0:24:06what the majority of my fellow countrymen think, and others were we
0:24:06 > 0:24:19are not in touch. -- where. If you take the Sun and Mail as British
0:24:19 > 0:24:23opinion, I am quite in touch.We have to leave it there. Thank you so
0:24:23 > 0:24:46much.Thank you.