0:00:02 > 0:00:07Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:13 > 0:00:21Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. There are no tanks on the
0:00:21 > 0:00:25streets of Riyadh, but make no mistake, what has just happened in
0:00:25 > 0:00:29Saudi Arabia represents a revolution of sorts. King Salman and his son
0:00:29 > 0:00:34Crown Prince Mohammed have started a purge of princes and ministers and
0:00:34 > 0:00:42potential rivals, part of a grand plan to entrench their power and
0:00:42 > 0:00:44transformed the country. My guess is Saudi journalist and current
0:00:44 > 0:00:52political exile, Jamal Khashoggi. -- guest. Is the Saudi drama about raw
0:00:52 > 0:01:06power or real reform?
0:01:13 > 0:01:26Jamal Khashoggi, welcome to HARDtalk.Thank you for having me.
0:01:26 > 0:01:32It is a pleasure. You have been calling for a long time now for
0:01:32 > 0:01:37reform in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. We now see a man at the top
0:01:37 > 0:01:44who appears determined to deliver on reform. Are you delighted with what
0:01:44 > 0:01:53you are seeing in the Saudi capital? I might sound throughout the show to
0:01:53 > 0:02:05have conflicting messages. Yes, I am delighted. But we have seen issues
0:02:05 > 0:02:14with one man rule. It always ends with disaster. Saudi Arabia was not
0:02:14 > 0:02:22a democracy, but it used to be ruled by consensus, not between us and the
0:02:22 > 0:02:28royal family, but within the royal family itself. Perhaps that
0:02:28 > 0:02:31safeguarded Saudi Arabia in the past from adventurous policies. But today
0:02:31 > 0:02:40it is ruled only by one man. Not even just the family. He is the sole
0:02:40 > 0:02:47leader of Saudi Arabia. He owns the future of Saudi Arabia. It is up to
0:02:47 > 0:02:54him to drive us to prosperity and reform or wars, we don't know.Let
0:02:54 > 0:02:58me just be clear. When you talk about one man, are you talking about
0:02:58 > 0:03:04the Crown Prince, or the actual king of Saudi Arabia, King Salman? Let's
0:03:04 > 0:03:10face it, the monarch is King Salman, but I suspect you are not talking
0:03:10 > 0:03:17about him.I am talking about Crown Prince Mohammed. King Salman has
0:03:17 > 0:03:23delegated responsibility to his son. Not officially, but in reality.Your
0:03:23 > 0:03:27point about the end of consensual decision-making within the royal
0:03:27 > 0:03:35family raises an important question. And surely, Mohammed bin Salman and
0:03:35 > 0:03:39his father are delivering a simple message, there are many, many
0:03:39 > 0:03:50corrupt people in the royal family. They have put 11 princes under
0:03:50 > 0:03:55detainment. They have been responsible of milking the Kingdom
0:03:55 > 0:04:02of billions and billions of dollars. Very much correct. Corruption in
0:04:02 > 0:04:08Saudi Arabia is endemic. It has depleted Saudi resources. It has
0:04:08 > 0:04:11corrupted even the mindset of the business environment. And it had to
0:04:11 > 0:04:19end. And we have been saying that, us writers. So, he has to do that.
0:04:19 > 0:04:33But is he doing it the right way? I can add to the list 10 others,
0:04:33 > 0:04:36royals and non-royals, who are corrupt. Every single person
0:04:36 > 0:04:41arrested, there has to be 10 others who should be with them. And then
0:04:41 > 0:04:46the council is corrupted itself. What is corruption? It is still
0:04:46 > 0:04:52being practised until the date Saudi radio. So, there is a need to be
0:04:52 > 0:04:59transparency. -- until today in Saudi Arabia. There is need for a
0:04:59 > 0:05:04media and open dialogue about it, of which there is none.You have to
0:05:04 > 0:05:08start somewhere. Clearly, he started with a very dramatic move against,
0:05:08 > 0:05:12we believe, at least 500 people, and I hear there will be more arrested
0:05:12 > 0:05:16in the next few days. And the message from Mohamed bin Salman to
0:05:16 > 0:05:19these people seems to be quite simple, you have taken from the
0:05:19 > 0:05:41Kingdom and its oil riches all of these hundreds of billions of
0:05:41 > 0:05:44dollars and we want to take the money back to the people of Saudi
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Arabia can enjoy the fruits of these riches. Surely that message
0:05:47 > 0:05:51resonates with all the people in the Kingdom.I think we should give him
0:05:51 > 0:05:55the benefit of the doubt. But should not we discuss that in Saudi media,
0:05:55 > 0:05:59in a consultation body? Those things are essential. Yes, we need to crash
0:05:59 > 0:06:06radicalism and corruption, but it is being done by one direction by one
0:06:06 > 0:06:13man rule. -- crush.Are you saying there is no space at all to discuss
0:06:13 > 0:06:20the nature of Mahmoud bin Salman's initiatives, including the
0:06:20 > 0:06:28Anti-Corruption Drive? I know that Saudis are extremely wired to social
0:06:28 > 0:06:34media, one of the most connected in the world. All sorts of young Saudis
0:06:34 > 0:06:42have tweeted. Here are a few I will quote. This man says this represents
0:06:42 > 0:06:47the Saudi dreams we have been waiting for. Thank God we now have a
0:06:47 > 0:06:52vision and a print to carry forward our ambitions. Another the mouse is
0:06:52 > 0:07:00this. A leader speaking for the benefit of the future. This person
0:07:00 > 0:07:04says we have an extraordinary Crown Prince, the saviour of our
0:07:04 > 0:07:07generation, working for a great leap towards the future! That is the
0:07:07 > 0:07:15voice of young Saudis!Very much correct. If I was to speak like
0:07:15 > 0:07:19them, I would also be in Saudi Arabia. But rather are the voices,
0:07:19 > 0:07:24and they are not being heard. They are being told to be silent. They
0:07:24 > 0:07:35have signed things saying they will stay silent. The list of Saudis
0:07:35 > 0:07:39banned from travel is growing every day. Are you not just feeling a
0:07:39 > 0:07:44little personally sour because you have run into problems with the
0:07:44 > 0:07:48regime because some of the things you have said on Twitter in the past
0:07:48 > 0:07:55few months have irritated. And also your former boss, one of the richest
0:07:55 > 0:08:02men in Saudi Arabia, Prince Walid,, he is also in detention as well, and
0:08:02 > 0:08:11you are seeing bad things with that. It is insulting to be told to be
0:08:11 > 0:08:19silent. I am more worried than sour. I am worried for my country. I
0:08:19 > 0:08:27cannot retire in America happily in just the right unimportant issues
0:08:27 > 0:08:34and go on with my life. -- and just write. What is worrying me the most
0:08:34 > 0:08:41is one man rule. We need reform, but one man rule is bad, as I said
0:08:41 > 0:08:48earlier. It always goes wrong in any country, whether it is Saudi Arabia,
0:08:48 > 0:08:54Germany, Iraq...We will get to the nature of autocracy in just a
0:08:54 > 0:09:02moment, but just to focus on your former boss, someone we are familiar
0:09:02 > 0:09:06with, one of Saudi Arabia's richest and most prominent business people.
0:09:06 > 0:09:10He owns hotels around the world and has huge stakes in America's
0:09:10 > 0:09:18businesses. There he is in detention in Riyadh. Are you saying there are
0:09:18 > 0:09:23no grounds to be holding him and that is a purely political act by
0:09:23 > 0:09:29Mahmoud bin Salman?No, I am not saying that. There has to be an
0:09:29 > 0:09:32investigation. If there is corruption, perhaps the authorities
0:09:32 > 0:09:40know better than I. But as far as I know, he was not a threat to Prince
0:09:40 > 0:09:46Mohammed, and was in fact supportive of him. A few days before his
0:09:46 > 0:09:50arrest, he sent me a text message urging me to come back to Saudi
0:09:50 > 0:09:55Arabia. He said enlightened minds like you should be with us, joining
0:09:55 > 0:10:03my brother, Prince Mohammed, in building the fourth state. That was
0:10:03 > 0:10:07him talking to me and asking me to return. He was very much supportive
0:10:07 > 0:10:13and was not challenging the Crown Prince.That is interesting. You are
0:10:13 > 0:10:17suggesting to me that the prince, one of the key figures in all of
0:10:17 > 0:10:22this drama, had no idea, even 48 hours before being detained, no idea
0:10:22 > 0:10:28that this was coming.Yes, exactly. He sent me this message and I am
0:10:28 > 0:10:33sure he sent to many other people because that his habit. He wanted
0:10:33 > 0:10:37Prince Mohammed to know that he is supporting him.Have you spoken to
0:10:37 > 0:10:44him by text, any other form of communication, since that?No. I
0:10:44 > 0:10:49texted him but there was no reply. Let's talk about the stability of
0:10:49 > 0:10:53the leadership now. You say it is all about one man, all about Crown
0:10:53 > 0:10:58Prince Mohammed bin Salman. He has moved against some of the most
0:10:58 > 0:11:04powerful princes in the house of Saud, including the former head of
0:11:04 > 0:11:08the National Guard, and others. Do you believe his grip now is
0:11:08 > 0:11:17absolutely unchallengeable?Yes, I think so. I do not think the royals
0:11:17 > 0:11:23can even gather and create a front against him for a number of reasons.
0:11:23 > 0:11:32Number one, they are so fragmented. Number two, they lack a leader. They
0:11:32 > 0:11:39don't have that leader, a moral leader, who can stand for values and
0:11:39 > 0:11:45for Saudi Arabia, who is totally independent and respected by all of
0:11:45 > 0:11:54them. And lastly, because he is using the stick of corruption. And
0:11:54 > 0:11:59if not all, most of them, somehow, they are involved in some form of
0:11:59 > 0:12:06corruption or abuse of power. So, he has the upper hand on those issues.
0:12:06 > 0:12:24So, I think he has won for now, but his biggest threat is not the
0:12:24 > 0:12:27royals, clergy, but the economy. He has to succeed economically.I will
0:12:27 > 0:12:31talk to you about that soon. But he thought about what we might learn
0:12:31 > 0:12:34from not just Saudi Arabia but Arab nations experiencing uprisings since
0:12:34 > 0:12:38the first Arab Spring in 2011. Surely the message of all all of
0:12:38 > 0:12:45this is that street protests and toppling governments has been
0:12:45 > 0:12:49negative for the nations of the Arab world. What Mohamed bin Salman seems
0:12:49 > 0:12:55to be saying is I know we have to transform ourselves, we have to
0:12:55 > 0:12:59modernise, we have to change, and I will be that agent of change. You
0:12:59 > 0:13:05call him in autocrat, comparing him to Vladimir Putin, Saddam Hussein,
0:13:05 > 0:13:09and others, but surely the message of the last two years is that the
0:13:09 > 0:13:14best hope a nation, Arab nation, like Saudi Arabia has. Someone who
0:13:14 > 0:13:19wants to use his power for genuine reform and change.Not by choice,
0:13:19 > 0:13:28why fact, de facto. He is the best choice for Saudi Arabia. That is
0:13:28 > 0:13:33what they are saying, they wish him luck. He has to succeed. That is
0:13:33 > 0:13:37what will decide the future of Saudi Arabia and also his future. It is
0:13:37 > 0:13:42for him to succeed. The people of Saudi Arabia are very much believing
0:13:42 > 0:13:48in Mahmoud bin Salman today. He hardly has any opposition. He hardly
0:13:48 > 0:13:55has any serious opposition, we will say. So, he has all of the floor for
0:13:55 > 0:14:01himself for the next few years to deliver his plan.OK, and now to the
0:14:01 > 0:14:07detail of a plan. You refer to the vision of 2030. It has various
0:14:07 > 0:14:11elements to it. Starting with the economy, he says he wants to develop
0:14:11 > 0:14:19a purely poached whale Saudi Arabian economy, investing in technology and
0:14:19 > 0:14:23building a new city in the north-west, some calling it a robot
0:14:23 > 0:14:27city, such will be the reliance on new technology. He wants massive
0:14:27 > 0:14:32infrastructure spending. Are you suggesting to me this is all
0:14:32 > 0:14:40fantasy, he cannot deliver on this?
0:14:40 > 0:14:43fantasy, he cannot deliver on this? lead their no, he can probably build
0:14:43 > 0:14:52the cities but will the cities succeed?
0:14:52 > 0:14:54two cities in Saudi Arabia which have not succeeded. King Abdullah's
0:14:54 > 0:14:57financial city and King
0:14:57 > 0:14:57have not succeeded. King Abdullah's financial city and King Abdullah
0:14:57 > 0:15:03industrial city.I have been to one of them. I have seen the grand
0:15:03 > 0:15:08ambition. The city was pretty empty when I was there. But it is all
0:15:08 > 0:15:13about the ability of Saudi Arabia two times for myths of from a dairy
0:15:13 > 0:15:18--a fairly sort of crude oil economy for something that is fit for
0:15:18 > 0:15:22purpose in the 21st century as a global leading economy and surely
0:15:22 > 0:15:29that ambition has to be Saudi Arabia's future?IC to faults in the
0:15:29 > 0:15:36vision and I wish I could express those in a local Saudi newspaper and
0:15:36 > 0:15:42we need to do that in Saudi Arabia. Number one, it is styled Darwin
0:15:42 > 0:15:47approach. That will not work for a country as big as Saudi Arabia. It
0:15:47 > 0:15:55would work for a small country, a city-state like Dubai, Doha or Abu
0:15:55 > 0:16:04Dhabi but not Saudi Arabia. Also, it is not based on jobs. Saudi Arabians
0:16:04 > 0:16:10are addicted to foreign Labour. We need to resolve the culture of jobs
0:16:10 > 0:16:15and Saudis will go back to work. There are all millions Saudis who
0:16:15 > 0:16:20are not in jobs today, not 2 million as the government suggests. The
0:16:20 > 0:16:27actual number is 4 million. Every year, 250,000 young Saudis go to the
0:16:27 > 0:16:31job market. That is his biggest task and he should spend more time on
0:16:31 > 0:16:35this problem rather than building a new city in Saudi Arabia.But you
0:16:35 > 0:16:39said the young people appear to be overwhelmingly with him and one
0:16:39 > 0:16:43reason is not just because he talks about this new economic proposition
0:16:43 > 0:16:49but he also talks the language of fundamental social change, not least
0:16:49 > 0:16:54for women in Saudi Arabia. He has decreed that all women will be able
0:16:54 > 0:17:00to drive illegally come the summer of 2018. He is giving them places on
0:17:00 > 0:17:07the consultative Council. They are going to be free to attend sports
0:17:07 > 0:17:12events. This is very important stuff, isn't it? He is signalling
0:17:12 > 0:17:17that Saudi Arabia's culture, its social life, it is fundamentally
0:17:17 > 0:17:23changing.Very much, and I campaigned for it and many other
0:17:23 > 0:17:29writers campaigned for it. It was an issue that we were pushing for
0:17:29 > 0:17:35almost every single day. But now we have put that behind us and we are
0:17:35 > 0:17:40moving forward and he is enjoying all the support from the young
0:17:40 > 0:17:47people. He needs to look at the unemployment issue. He has to
0:17:47 > 0:17:52provide jobs for millions of Saudis. I don't think that can be done from
0:17:52 > 0:17:58this top-down approach by building new cities but rather, starting from
0:17:58 > 0:18:02scratch and bringing back the culture of work to the Saudi
0:18:02 > 0:18:07society. The culture of work among Saudis is dead because of our
0:18:07 > 0:18:13addiction to foreign Labour over the last 40 years. Almost every single
0:18:13 > 0:18:19job is done by a foreigner and we need to be free from that.What
0:18:19 > 0:18:24about the religious element to all of this? In a keynote speech just
0:18:24 > 0:18:29last month, Mohammed bin Salman pledged, and I'm using his words, to
0:18:29 > 0:18:37return Saudi Arabia to moderate Islam. There is a very complicated
0:18:37 > 0:18:41relationship between the rulers of the Kingdom and the leading clerics
0:18:41 > 0:18:47and religious authorities in Saudi Arabia. Can he deliver on this shift
0:18:47 > 0:18:56of the religious Tanah and tone of the kingdom?Yes, he can. Because in
0:18:56 > 0:19:00the Court of history, young people are becoming more and more moderate.
0:19:00 > 0:19:04Number two, he only needs to unplug and government support for
0:19:04 > 0:19:11radicalism. Radicalism was tolerated by the government. Radicalism in
0:19:11 > 0:19:19Saudi Arabia that was put into the Saudi curriculum, the Saudi
0:19:19 > 0:19:22education system, the mosques, it was a loud and tolerated by the
0:19:22 > 0:19:30government. It the government pulled the plug, those clergy is dependent
0:19:30 > 0:19:36on the government, they will go back home and seek their own safety.The
0:19:36 > 0:19:40reason why so many people, not least in the White House behind you, care
0:19:40 > 0:19:44about what is happening is -- in Saudi Arabia is because of the
0:19:44 > 0:19:48strategically important kingdom -- the -- the strategically important
0:19:48 > 0:19:53role the kingdom plays in the region. Mohammed bin Salman has, if
0:19:53 > 0:19:57you like, being the director of Saudi Arabia's military assault on
0:19:57 > 0:20:05the rebels in Yemen and seems to be choreographing a very co-ordinated
0:20:05 > 0:20:11move, for example encouraging former prime minister Hariri to resign in
0:20:11 > 0:20:19Lebanon, getting tough with Iran, sending signals to Qatar, that's
0:20:19 > 0:20:23their radicalism will not be tolerated any more. Is all these
0:20:23 > 0:20:27different ways in which Saudi Arabia is mixing its muscle will be
0:20:27 > 0:20:40intensified in the coming months and years?It has to succeed. Before it
0:20:40 > 0:20:44could intensify, what about its chance of success? That worries us.
0:20:44 > 0:20:51As a citizen, I want to stop uranium expansionism, sectarian expansionism
0:20:51 > 0:20:55but I don't want war with the Iranians, it will damage both
0:20:55 > 0:21:03countries. I would like to see Saudi Arabians more inspired for change,
0:21:03 > 0:21:08such as the Arab Spring. It is not a conspiracy as many Saudi people
0:21:08 > 0:21:13suggest. Young people in a jeep in Syria, they want better regimes,
0:21:13 > 0:21:19they want a say in their government. Unfortunately, I see my country
0:21:19 > 0:21:26countering such aspirations. That could drive Iran and Isis and
0:21:26 > 0:21:30radicalism a way from the region by placing those factors of change
0:21:30 > 0:21:38which are still happening in Yemen, in Syria. In Yemen, Saudi Arabia can
0:21:38 > 0:21:42play a role in bringing all you many is together to find a power-sharing
0:21:42 > 0:21:50formula and that will end the war. -- the people of Yemen.But that is
0:21:50 > 0:21:54not happening. I wonder if you believe whether Mohammed bin Salman
0:21:54 > 0:22:00is seriously contemplating war with Iran?I hope not. We have to wonder
0:22:00 > 0:22:04what kind of exchange is having with the American Administration and the
0:22:04 > 0:22:09Americans giving promises they cannot fulfil. Are the Americans
0:22:09 > 0:22:15behind this drum of war that has been sounded by us, the Saudis? It's
0:22:15 > 0:22:20not clear yet. I don't think the Americans will on our behalf but who
0:22:20 > 0:22:27is going to do the fighting? I hope not Saudi Arabia. Even though I
0:22:27 > 0:22:31would like Iran out of our rage and -- region, war with Iran is very
0:22:31 > 0:22:37bad.Final question, you warned me that I might find some of your
0:22:37 > 0:22:43position is confusing or conflicted and I have. Throughout the course of
0:22:43 > 0:22:47this conversation, you have suggested that many of the things
0:22:47 > 0:22:51Mohammed bin Salman is trying to do is the right thing for Saudi Arabia
0:22:51 > 0:22:55but you have also in this interview compared him to autocrats including
0:22:55 > 0:23:01Putin, Saddam Hussein and others. You ultimately believe he represents
0:23:01 > 0:23:06Saudi Arabia's best chance and will you at some point go home to try to
0:23:06 > 0:23:17be part of the change and reform of your kingdom?I have no option but
0:23:17 > 0:23:21to wish he leads Saudi Arabia because I will not vote him out, we
0:23:21 > 0:23:26don't have elections in Saudi Arabia. He won the throne, really.
0:23:26 > 0:23:32Even within the family. There is no serious competition or threat to
0:23:32 > 0:23:39him, even within the family. I wish I could go home but the environment
0:23:39 > 0:23:46is not welcoming to me or any other Saudi writers, economists who are
0:23:46 > 0:23:52independent. All the people around him are yes-men and he wants that.
0:23:52 > 0:24:00He thinks he can do it alone. He thinks he is that she thinks he is
0:24:00 > 0:24:04the lead of the country has been waiting for so I will just settle
0:24:04 > 0:24:12for my role to be here in Washington and hopefully provide a loyal
0:24:12 > 0:24:18opposition.Jamal Khashoggi, we thank you for being on HARDtalk
0:24:18 > 0:24:29Thank you very much.