0:00:02 > 0:00:10Now on BBC News, Extra Time.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13Welcome to Extra Time.
0:00:13 > 0:00:17Rugby union has never been so popular.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20The World Cup is touted as the third-biggest sporting event
0:00:20 > 0:00:21in the world.
0:00:21 > 0:00:25Player salaries get ever larger, and the game expands
0:00:25 > 0:00:33into new territories, from Georgia to China.
0:00:33 > 0:00:35And yet my guest today says the sport could be
0:00:35 > 0:00:38brought to its knees if ongoing tensions between the game's major
0:00:38 > 0:00:44stakeholders turn sour.
0:00:44 > 0:00:46Rob Andrew is a former England international,
0:00:46 > 0:00:49and last year, he ended ten years as a top administrator
0:00:49 > 0:00:54at the Rugby Football Union.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57What is his game plan for securing rugby's future?
0:01:09 > 0:01:14Rob Andrew, welcome to Extra Time.
0:01:14 > 0:01:20Thank you.One of the most eye-catching phrases in your book is
0:01:20 > 0:01:27particularly doom laden. You write interests and conflict at the height
0:01:27 > 0:01:31of rugby on this planet to be easily bring the entire sport to its knees.
0:01:31 > 0:01:37Why do you say that?Well, it is an interesting point, and actually just
0:01:37 > 0:01:40this last few days, with the southern hemisphere teams coming up
0:01:40 > 0:01:45to the north, and Barbarians playing the All Blacks, the southern
0:01:45 > 0:01:48hemisphere unions themselves, and all three chief executives, have
0:01:48 > 0:01:51come out and said there are real threat to the southern hemisphere
0:01:51 > 0:01:55game. Lots of players leaving the southern hemisphere for the riches
0:01:55 > 0:01:59of the north, in England and in France, and there is a sort of
0:01:59 > 0:02:05danger that, over time, the rich clubs of France and England will
0:02:05 > 0:02:09hoover up all of the best players, put real pressure is on the southern
0:02:09 > 0:02:13hemisphere. Not only will they lose test players, but they will lose
0:02:13 > 0:02:17players from the level below, which means their own domestic games are
0:02:17 > 0:02:21damaged, and I think there is a real risk.Let me quote an example. 25
0:02:21 > 0:02:28euros charge Childs has a £1 billion deal to play. You can't blame the
0:02:28 > 0:02:31player for wanting to earn money, you can't blame the owners warning
0:02:31 > 0:02:36to attract the best talent. So how do you resolve this?And it goes to
0:02:36 > 0:02:40the very heart of what has happened in the last 20 years. And look, I
0:02:40 > 0:02:44was at the beginning of that in 1995, when I went to Newcastle with
0:02:44 > 0:02:47Sir John Hall, and we were criticised for paying exorbitant
0:02:47 > 0:02:53salaries then of £50,000 per year. Now, you have this issue in rugby
0:02:53 > 0:03:00where the game is split between union control and private ownership,
0:03:00 > 0:03:05which is a bit of a football model. And it just creates loads and loads
0:03:05 > 0:03:09of tensions.On the model in football is that the club owners get
0:03:09 > 0:03:13more and more powerful. Do you see the same happening in rugby union?
0:03:13 > 0:03:17Undoubtedly, there is no question of that. It is probably only in England
0:03:17 > 0:03:21and France that this happens, so we almost have a two tier system in
0:03:21 > 0:03:24rugby. We have private club ownership in England and France,
0:03:24 > 0:03:27with significant amounts of money, significant wealth in owners who are
0:03:27 > 0:03:31not just millionaires now but billionaires. There were
0:03:31 > 0:03:35millionaires when they came into the game, Sir John Hall and Nigel Ray,
0:03:35 > 0:03:40Nigel and those guys are still there. And it just creates pressure.
0:03:40 > 0:03:46And when the athlete in the middle is wanted by two owners,
0:03:46 > 0:03:50effectively, then you have tension. And rugby has always had this
0:03:50 > 0:03:54tension. And a big part of my role, the reason I went to the RFU, was to
0:03:54 > 0:04:00try and control that tension, if you like, and create a working
0:04:00 > 0:04:03environment. At its very difficult, and the more money that gets
0:04:03 > 0:04:08involved, the bigger those tensions become.How much to the club owners
0:04:08 > 0:04:12care about international rugby? Well, I think deep down they still
0:04:12 > 0:04:18do. And I think deep down...They don't act as if they do.It is a
0:04:18 > 0:04:21really difficult challenge, and one of the big debates that is happening
0:04:21 > 0:04:24at the moment is around season structure and length of season, and
0:04:24 > 0:04:28what the owners don't like... And to be honest I didn't like very much
0:04:28 > 0:04:32when I was at Newcastle with Sir John Hall, where your best player,
0:04:32 > 0:04:35we had Jonny Wilkinson, went missing the big parts of the season. And it
0:04:35 > 0:04:39is a bit like club football. Man United and Chelsea and Spurs
0:04:39 > 0:04:47allowing, say, Harry Kane to go missing for three months of the
0:04:47 > 0:04:51season. And that is a challenge that rugby has to deal with the next few
0:04:51 > 0:04:55years.But you take someone like S-bend, he says I could have stayed
0:04:55 > 0:04:59to be an All Black great that rugby is not forever. So he is choosing
0:04:59 > 0:05:02big money, quick money, for what could be quite a short career.
0:05:02 > 0:05:07Whether he stays in northern England or not.You can't blame players, I
0:05:07 > 0:05:12mean, who would have thought...For all the of the All Black jersey,
0:05:12 > 0:05:17which in our four goes.And this is the issue. I'm not saying anybody is
0:05:17 > 0:05:22right or wrong, but what I am saying the market will dictate, the market
0:05:22 > 0:05:26forces, whether it is football, cricket now, with T20, rugby, the
0:05:26 > 0:05:31market will determine where the asset ends up.And not the pride of
0:05:31 > 0:05:36the jersey.Well, not if you are talking about millions of pounds,
0:05:36 > 0:05:40which are life changing. And this would clearly... In the amateur era,
0:05:40 > 0:05:44none of this ever happened. But I suppose it is one of the
0:05:44 > 0:05:52consequences of going professional. And did we all have a crystal ball
0:05:52 > 0:05:561995, when it went professional?You couldn't see this coming?Well,
0:05:56 > 0:06:01maybe we should have done. But even then, in 1995, remember, the Premier
0:06:01 > 0:06:05League soccer had only been running since 1982. So the Premier League
0:06:05 > 0:06:09soccer is only 25 years old and could any of us have imagined the in
0:06:09 > 0:06:14English foot or? £1 million rugby player, or IPL cricket getting
0:06:14 > 0:06:19millions of pounds for six weeks' work.Part of this is about
0:06:19 > 0:06:23eligibility, isn't it? Let's talk about Nathan Hughes, a Fijian
0:06:23 > 0:06:26eligible for New Zealand, but switching to England and is in Eddie
0:06:26 > 0:06:29Jones's squad after three years here. So the question is whether
0:06:29 > 0:06:34three years is long enough for residency. Why not make it five, why
0:06:34 > 0:06:38not make it never?Yes, well, I think that is another debate.That
0:06:38 > 0:06:44is one for the lawyers?It is one for the administrators. World rugby
0:06:44 > 0:06:48are looking at that at the moment. Everyone accepts three years is too
0:06:48 > 0:06:52short.What do you think?Three years is definitely too short, could
0:06:52 > 0:06:58be five, could be seven.Seven, as many as seven years?I think Tom if
0:06:58 > 0:07:04you don't do something, it means that the islanders, in particular,
0:07:04 > 0:07:11who leave Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, to go to Fiji or Australia, it is not just
0:07:11 > 0:07:15England, they are going to do it if the rules allow a -- New Zealand or
0:07:15 > 0:07:19Australia. You can't blame the player, can you?So you might say
0:07:19 > 0:07:23seven years' residency is the minimum. Does that have a cat's
0:07:23 > 0:07:28chance of coming through?I think maybe five years, but even his five
0:07:28 > 0:07:32years enough? But again, the whole point here is that the game is
0:07:32 > 0:07:37turning on its axis, and actually, there are real financial and
0:07:37 > 0:07:44planning challenges that will have a longer term impact, as we move
0:07:44 > 0:07:49through. And who is to say that, in time, the impact on the England
0:07:49 > 0:07:53national team won't be affected as well. Because, a bit like soccer, if
0:07:53 > 0:07:57all of the best players come to play in England or France, because we
0:07:57 > 0:08:01have got the biggest league...Then they won't have the playing
0:08:01 > 0:08:06experience.So you are back into this Catch-22 situation, and the
0:08:06 > 0:08:09debate in English soccer, winning the World Cup or the under 16 or the
0:08:09 > 0:08:12under 20, will those talented players get the opportunity.You
0:08:12 > 0:08:16write in your book, without compromises, the World Cup model
0:08:16 > 0:08:20will be under threat. Can you outlined to me how this Komla most
0:08:20 > 0:08:24will be reached? Maybe it is the five-year residency limit? Other are
0:08:24 > 0:08:28the rules you would like to bring in?Well, I think it is about the
0:08:28 > 0:08:31residency, but it is about how do you ensure that there is enough
0:08:31 > 0:08:35money going around the key players in the southern hemisphere. And that
0:08:35 > 0:08:38is one of the biggest challenges for South Africa, Australia and New
0:08:38 > 0:08:42Zealand, is how do they keep enough talent at home to keep their game is
0:08:42 > 0:08:46vibrant.So is it a fairer distribution of wealth amongst the
0:08:46 > 0:08:50nation 's?Well, we have had those discussions, and those are down
0:08:50 > 0:08:55difficult discussions to have, to say Will the big give to the poorer?
0:08:55 > 0:08:59The RFU is reporting that the new international laws are failing to
0:08:59 > 0:09:03reduce the number of so-called involvements, or collisions. On the
0:09:03 > 0:09:06contrary, these episodes are on the increase. What is to be done about
0:09:06 > 0:09:11player safety in rugby union? Has become a desperately brutal game.
0:09:11 > 0:09:15Yes, but I think it has. I think there is a genuine belief amongst
0:09:15 > 0:09:19world rugby, and all the unions, to try and find a solution to something
0:09:19 > 0:09:24that, once you go professional and you create these phenomenal
0:09:24 > 0:09:29athletes, and you turn the dial up as far as we have, the difficulty is
0:09:29 > 0:09:34turning it back down again.Do you think it could even get hotter, as
0:09:34 > 0:09:38it were?Well, I am not sure how much hotter it could get, to be
0:09:38 > 0:09:42honest, but it is a challenge. And one of the biggest challenges is, as
0:09:42 > 0:09:46you say, the number of involvements. We talk about collisions in rugby. I
0:09:46 > 0:09:49mean, we never talked about collisions when I played. You talked
0:09:49 > 0:09:53about getting out of the way of collisions, not sort of having
0:09:53 > 0:09:57collisions. Now, we talk about lots of hits and collisions, and it has
0:09:57 > 0:10:02sort of change the way people think about the game.There is now talk of
0:10:02 > 0:10:06strike action by the players, in order to preserve, effectively,
0:10:06 > 0:10:10their careers, and maybe even the health and later life. Is that
0:10:10 > 0:10:14something you would support? Is that something that you might even engage
0:10:14 > 0:10:19in, if you were still playing?I think if I was a player I would be
0:10:19 > 0:10:22certainly engaging in it, in terms of protecting...Would you go on
0:10:22 > 0:10:27strike if you were?Well, you would certainly question what is being
0:10:27 > 0:10:33proposed at the moment, in terms of the welfare of the individual. It is
0:10:33 > 0:10:37a very tough, long season. And this goes to the heart of the conflict
0:10:37 > 0:10:41between the union and the club. Because the club owners want to
0:10:41 > 0:10:44stretch the season out, so that their players are playing for them
0:10:44 > 0:10:51more than they are for the union. And, if you are a player, you have
0:10:51 > 0:10:55only one course of action, which is actually to say, look, I am not
0:10:55 > 0:10:59prepared to go on the field. And that is one of the biggest
0:10:59 > 0:11:02challenges.Well, long-term consequences, of course, are in the
0:11:02 > 0:11:07Mexia. Brain damage. But there could one day at the elite level be a
0:11:07 > 0:11:11death on the pitch. I mean, I don't want to be scaremongering about this
0:11:11 > 0:11:14but we know that at levels below the professional game there have been
0:11:14 > 0:11:19incidents like that. A 19-year-old early the this year in New Zealand
0:11:19 > 0:11:23died as a result of injuries he sustained on the pitch. Is that what
0:11:23 > 0:11:26it will take for rugby to come to its senses?For goodness's sake, we
0:11:26 > 0:11:32will pray and hope that that does not a occur, and there has always
0:11:32 > 0:11:36been an element of risk in rugby, and sadly I was involved at school
0:11:36 > 0:11:40with one of my best mates who has been a paraplegic for nearly 40
0:11:40 > 0:11:46years, who dedicate the book too, a called Kris McKeon, and Rory and I
0:11:46 > 0:11:50were on the school field when he was injured in a tackle in the late 70s.
0:11:50 > 0:11:55And it is always the one thing that I sort of hate most about the game,
0:11:55 > 0:11:59if you like, that...It has obviously had a profound affect on
0:11:59 > 0:12:05you.It has, and Chris is still alive, he is a remarkable human
0:12:05 > 0:12:10being, who has not got any malice towards the game. But, in, he was 15
0:12:10 > 0:12:21years when this happened. And... So injury in rugby is something that is
0:12:21 > 0:12:25very close to my heart. And I think it is a real issue for the game that
0:12:25 > 0:12:32cannot be taken too lightly. And there is a danger, if things
0:12:32 > 0:12:35aren't... If something doesn't happen to turn down this dial,
0:12:35 > 0:12:39people will get put off playing rugby. And I don't want that, I
0:12:39 > 0:12:44don't want that at all. What you already here on touchlines, with
0:12:44 > 0:12:47parents, mums in particular, and just sort of do they really want
0:12:47 > 0:12:51their children to be playing rugby? And those things snowballed. And
0:12:51 > 0:12:56what I have seen in sport, very quickly, over the last sort of
0:12:56 > 0:13:01decade, maybe slightly longer, is the pace of change in modern life,
0:13:01 > 0:13:05particularly when it is associated with sport, can happen like that.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09And if you are not careful, you could be two, three, four, five
0:13:09 > 0:13:12years down the line, and there are bigger issues at play there.A
0:13:12 > 0:13:19curious thing here, Rob, is that the players want to play, of course they
0:13:19 > 0:13:23want to play, because they love the game, but also that they are
0:13:23 > 0:13:26reckless about the damage to their bodies, and some even relish the
0:13:26 > 0:13:30pain. A quote from one prop, the pain bonds you as a team. From that
0:13:30 > 0:13:34you get a deeper learning of each other, a deeper trust each other.
0:13:34 > 0:13:39How do you react to that?Yes, and I understand that. I understand that
0:13:39 > 0:13:43from Dan. He was a front row forward, I understood it when I
0:13:43 > 0:13:46played. There was a bond around the physical nature of the sport. I
0:13:46 > 0:13:50think there comes a point when the administrators of the game have a
0:13:50 > 0:13:55much wider responsibility to protect the players from themselves, and to
0:13:55 > 0:14:00protect the long-term interests of the game, so that in 50 years' time,
0:14:00 > 0:14:07the game is still being played, and is still a sport of choice for young
0:14:07 > 0:14:12people. Because it has so many qualities. But, as I say, there is
0:14:12 > 0:14:17an alarm going off here, and I think people are hearing it, and it is
0:14:17 > 0:14:29finding the answer that is always the damned difficult thing to do.
0:14:29 > 0:14:34Let's talk about your thymic clicking them. You spoke about the
0:14:34 > 0:14:392012 World Cup as a pet. -- Twickenham. What you are talking
0:14:39 > 0:14:44about is that you failed to employ any meaningful programme to ensure
0:14:44 > 0:14:53consistency in progress.That is one way of interpreting it. Some people
0:14:53 > 0:14:58would agree with you, and some people would say that, but I would
0:14:58 > 0:15:03disagree with that, and say...On what basis?I would say that when
0:15:03 > 0:15:08you look at sporting systems, and there was not a great deal of system
0:15:08 > 0:15:15work back in English rugby in 2006, which is what I mean by that... In
0:15:15 > 0:15:262003 was that once every ten years England team. The 2011 and 2015
0:15:26 > 0:15:31World Cups were clearly very difficult. Systems take years to
0:15:31 > 0:15:36build. When you talk to UK sport or any sporting organisation, there is
0:15:36 > 0:15:40a timeline to these things. The proof will be in the pudding over
0:15:40 > 0:15:49the next ten years.So talking about the World Cup in 2019, if you win
0:15:49 > 0:15:54that, you are saying that it would be to your credit, because you put
0:15:54 > 0:15:59the systems...No, I am not saying that. But if you understand sport
0:15:59 > 0:16:03systems, you understand how long it takes to put these things into
0:16:03 > 0:16:09place. From 2008, you do need that time. That is not to say that in
0:16:09 > 0:16:122015 the team should not have done better, but over the next decade,
0:16:12 > 0:16:17given the quality of talent in the system that is in place in England,
0:16:17 > 0:16:20and the depth of talent, then England should do well, that is my
0:16:20 > 0:16:25view. And I said that before the 2015 World Cup and I stick with it.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28That doesn't mean to say that things will not go wrong with team
0:16:28 > 0:16:36selection and all the rest of us to make it. -- or the rest of it.
0:16:36 > 0:16:40Somebody wrote about your time at Twickenham and said it was
0:16:40 > 0:16:49disastrous. He pointed to previous appointments, and of course, you
0:16:49 > 0:16:57have a ready referred to 2015, which was a disaster. If there was a car
0:16:57 > 0:17:01crash, then it was Andrew that were sitting behind the wheel, that was
0:17:01 > 0:17:08what was written.He is gone.It is a well-respected writer. He is a
0:17:08 > 0:17:13well respected writer.By some, but not all. I think he has had an
0:17:13 > 0:17:27agenda for most of his career, as far as I can see.An anti-Andrew a
0:17:27 > 0:17:40gender?Yes, I think so. I think it is about understanding what people's
0:17:40 > 0:17:48roles are. -- agenda. My role at times at the RFU, and I said this
0:17:48 > 0:17:52many times, I made mistakes. And I think most respected rugby
0:17:52 > 0:17:56journalists understand what was going on. Stephen has his view and
0:17:56 > 0:18:02has headed for 30. When I respect that view or not is up to me.Some
0:18:02 > 0:18:06of the difficulties were obviously beyond your control, the moment in
0:18:06 > 0:18:202011 Dean, when a tragedy attention of the Auckland Blues. -- 2011,
0:18:20 > 0:18:25when.-- police. Things happened under Martin's rain. Players let him
0:18:25 > 0:18:31down. There is no question. Senior players let him down. They have got
0:18:31 > 0:18:36to look in the mirror and work out whether they did or they didn't. I
0:18:36 > 0:18:40nor the position was and I think mine does. And then obviously with
0:18:40 > 0:18:44the end of the World Cup, going out to France in the quarter-final, we
0:18:44 > 0:18:49sat around having dinner in Auckland, and the whole of the
0:18:49 > 0:18:52management team - and they are pretty big management teams now,
0:18:52 > 0:18:58with rugby, possibly as many as players - and that is the modern
0:18:58 > 0:19:08way, isn't it? And a phone rang, and I was sat virtually opposite John,
0:19:08 > 0:19:17and you could hear him go, yes, he is what? He's? And he's been
0:19:17 > 0:19:31arrested? Issey OK? And it was sort of - poor old Tom, and the farmers
0:19:31 > 0:19:38were done, and we said what on earth. And it was Toby Flood who
0:19:38 > 0:19:43basically said we are on a ferry on the way back to Auckland Harbour. --
0:19:43 > 0:19:49is he OK. One minute he was there, the next minute he was in the
0:19:49 > 0:19:54harbour.Eventually, he was fished out, was in the? But the fact is
0:19:54 > 0:19:58that he has been in trouble here in the UK, once with the police, and
0:19:58 > 0:20:02once with Eddie Jones, the head coach. Is he a liability? Is he
0:20:02 > 0:20:08worth it?How many chances to coaches give players? I think that
0:20:08 > 0:20:15is one of the issues.We have mentioned three incidents, three and
0:20:15 > 0:20:20you are out, is that?I think is one of those examples of the modern
0:20:20 > 0:20:24game, modern characters, the amount of money, the level of
0:20:24 > 0:20:30responsibility that you would expect place to take not just in rugby but
0:20:30 > 0:20:34other sports as well. We are in the modern world and the modern media,
0:20:34 > 0:20:43and players to need to take more responsibility, or coaches are
0:20:43 > 0:20:47effectively forced to lock people in their rooms.And wouldn't that be a
0:20:47 > 0:20:52crazy position? Let's talk about Eddie Jones. You are nearly at the
0:20:52 > 0:20:57end of your time at Twickenham when he was a appointed coach. Could you
0:20:57 > 0:21:01take credit for what appears to have been a successful decision?That is
0:21:01 > 0:21:04the other thing I mentioned. Have your point President Almazbek
0:21:04 > 0:21:13Atambayev you have a recruitment process with really experienced
0:21:13 > 0:21:20people?And one of those on the current panel was an Englishman, was
0:21:20 > 0:21:25in the?At the time, it was felt that it was the right thing at the
0:21:25 > 0:21:30right time for English rugby. And again Stephen Jones, get your facts
0:21:30 > 0:21:39right, I didn't our point Lancaster, not that it means much to him, but
0:21:39 > 0:21:45it is one of those things where, you look at the Eddie Jones appointment,
0:21:45 > 0:21:49and the decision was taken that we have two have a coach with
0:21:49 > 0:21:52international experience. -- didn't appoint. They will not be English.
0:21:52 > 0:21:59Because you have just sacked one with international experience. The
0:21:59 > 0:22:05decision there which can talk with the backing of the board, and he and
0:22:05 > 0:22:11I spoke about it, was who was available at the moment. -- Ian. Who
0:22:11 > 0:22:19can come in and take a good group of players, and yes, it has talent
0:22:19 > 0:22:26there, but some do with international experience.I will
0:22:26 > 0:22:31move you on, because running out of time. But any information on the
0:22:31 > 0:22:402023 World Cup? In so could be South Africa. I learned the Irish are
0:22:40 > 0:22:48disappointed.These processes are very robust in terms of what you
0:22:48 > 0:22:53have to go through. Ireland, France, and South Africa have, I suspect,
0:22:53 > 0:23:00put in strong bids. Had they come to the final decision is down to the
0:23:00 > 0:23:03board. Of course Ireland will be hugely disappointed if they don't
0:23:03 > 0:23:11get it. But equally, South Africa was a wonderful World Cup in 1985.
0:23:11 > 0:23:17France was wonderful in 2007. They would all do great jobs.A final
0:23:17 > 0:23:22question and a brief and said he will. England for 2019 of the World
0:23:22 > 0:23:28Cup, had you read their chances 1- ten, with sending winners?It is up
0:23:28 > 0:23:33there. The top end of that scale. There is no cushion about that. This
0:23:33 > 0:23:39is already a strong English group of players. Two years ago. They will
0:23:39 > 0:23:44get better. And then it will be down to in those eight weeks, have they
0:23:44 > 0:23:49got their preparation right, and they got selection right, can they
0:23:49 > 0:23:53handled it pressure, which is what marks out the World Cup winning
0:23:53 > 0:23:58teams. 2003 do that. But in only one we didn't in the World Cup final.
0:23:58 > 0:24:05This team is probably the nearest he would have had in two years time
0:24:05 > 0:24:09that will have a real chance when they go to Japan.Thank you very a
0:24:09 > 0:24:28much indeed. -- Thank you very much indeed.