0:00:39 > 0:00:39guess is David Miliband, head of the UK-based International Rescue
0:00:39 > 0:00:43Committee, and a former British Foreign Secretary. Can this
0:00:43 > 0:00:48politician turned Unitarian explain why governments worldwide are
0:00:48 > 0:00:54failing to meet the migration challenge? -- turns humanitarian.
0:01:16 > 0:01:22David Miliband, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. To be back.How
0:01:22 > 0:01:25demoralising is it travelling the world trying to persuade governments
0:01:25 > 0:01:30that they should read doing many things they are not doing to address
0:01:30 > 0:01:33this global migration crisis?Well, looking at the statistics, it is
0:01:33 > 0:01:37undoubtedly depressing. Record numbers of people being displaced by
0:01:37 > 0:01:42conflict and persecution, as you say. But actually, the human stories
0:01:42 > 0:01:46are of resilience and extraordinary courage and even renewal in the most
0:01:46 > 0:01:50difficult of circumstances. I think it was a filmmaker who went to the
0:01:50 > 0:01:54Congo and said if you look at the statistics you are depressed but if
0:01:54 > 0:01:58you look at the people you have hope. As the head of an NGO, that is
0:01:58 > 0:02:02certainly the kind of philosophy or insight I get from the work we do
0:02:02 > 0:02:05around the world.I don't mean to diminish the importance of a
0:02:05 > 0:02:08one-on-one experience you have when you go to this conflict zones, but
0:02:08 > 0:02:12in the end, the statistics matter more, because it is the collective
0:02:12 > 0:02:18experience that really matters. If I plucked out of the air one crisis
0:02:18 > 0:02:21unfolding right now, that of the Rohingya people, forced out of
0:02:21 > 0:02:26Myanmar, now collected in appalling conditions in camps in Bangladesh,
0:02:26 > 0:02:33600,000 people at least...In the space of six or seven weeks.What on
0:02:33 > 0:02:37earth are you and all of the people who work on these sorts of crises
0:02:37 > 0:02:41able to do?The truth is, we are there to staunch the dying and
0:02:41 > 0:02:45provide the basic modicum of dignity. But it takes politics to
0:02:45 > 0:02:48stop the killing. The humanitarian sector is inevitably dealing with
0:02:48 > 0:02:53the symptoms of political failure. My argument is that we can do a much
0:02:53 > 0:02:57better job at dealing with those symptoms, even in the midst of the
0:02:57 > 0:03:01kind of political failure that leads to this massive exodus of people. So
0:03:01 > 0:03:05there is a job to renew the peace building, peacemaking mission that
0:03:05 > 0:03:09should be at the heart of foreign relations, but there is also a job
0:03:09 > 0:03:13to do to reform and improve the humanitarian aid sector, which is
0:03:13 > 0:03:17heroic, but could be more effective. That is why I come back to the
0:03:17 > 0:03:21opening question about dissolution. On both fronts it seems that failure
0:03:21 > 0:03:28is so much more common than success. On the political front, the Myanmar
0:03:28 > 0:03:31government has not only not listen to the calls from around the world
0:03:31 > 0:03:35to stop earning those villages, it is actually still continuing in the
0:03:35 > 0:03:41face of condemnation. -- burning. And while you say we have to focus
0:03:41 > 0:03:44on looking at these people in the short term, but then giving them
0:03:44 > 0:03:48hope of a better life in the long-term, governments around the
0:03:48 > 0:03:51world are actually cutting their budgets for this sort of thing come
0:03:51 > 0:03:54in at expanding.Some certainly are, not only in the Western world, which
0:03:54 > 0:03:58not only wrote the laws on refugees after the Second World War, and is
0:03:58 > 0:04:03the major funder of aid.Slashing budgets. Donald Trump has slashed
0:04:03 > 0:04:07the aid budget by 40%.His administration wants to. Congress
0:04:07 > 0:04:11has defied the administration and rejected those budget cuts. Of
0:04:11 > 0:04:14course, we would say that since the needs are rising, the budget should
0:04:14 > 0:04:19be rising. It is not true to say that the budgets have been slashed.
0:04:19 > 0:04:22That has been pushed back, in the US. It is important to recognise
0:04:22 > 0:04:25that there are some governments, unlike the governments, which
0:04:25 > 0:04:29actually show how to deal with this challenge effectively. The
0:04:29 > 0:04:32government of Uganda, to take one example, the reason for mentioning
0:04:32 > 0:04:36it, and million refugees from South Sudan have gone into you go and in
0:04:36 > 0:04:40the last year. What was the response of the Ugandan government? Not to
0:04:40 > 0:04:43build walls. The response was, these people should be given land, every
0:04:43 > 0:04:47family given land, these people should be allowed to work, every
0:04:47 > 0:04:52adult about to work. These people should be given services, every kid
0:04:52 > 0:04:56allowed into school. And that is in a country with an average income of
0:04:56 > 0:05:02$962 per person per year. So there are examples of fear mongering and
0:05:02 > 0:05:09loading being developed amongst population is about the refugee
0:05:09 > 0:05:14crisis. -- loathing. But there are also stories of heroism and
0:05:14 > 0:05:17determination to stand up. You are right to point the finger at
0:05:17 > 0:05:21governments that are not doing the right thing. You are also writes a
0:05:21 > 0:05:24point finger at relatively wealthy parts of the world.Well, that was
0:05:24 > 0:05:28about to be my point. Surely, if one is looking at those countries not
0:05:28 > 0:05:32prepared to countenance bearing part of the burden, the countries that
0:05:32 > 0:05:35are the most culpable are those who actually have the most resources,
0:05:35 > 0:05:38because they are in the best addition to offer long-term help.I
0:05:38 > 0:05:43agree.Not just in terms of keeping people alive, but the other things
0:05:43 > 0:05:46you talk about, providing people with jobs, providing their children
0:05:46 > 0:05:50with education, giving them a long-term chance to thrive.And my
0:05:50 > 0:05:54argument is that it is not just morally wrong to ignore those
0:05:54 > 0:05:57people, it is not just the trashing of Western history, if you like, to
0:05:57 > 0:06:01turn your back on the victims of war and persecution, the innocent
0:06:01 > 0:06:05victims of war and persecution. My argument is also that in a connected
0:06:05 > 0:06:13world it is actually a strategic mistake. I have just come back from
0:06:13 > 0:06:16Lebanon and Jordan. Those countries have put about 2 million refugees
0:06:16 > 0:06:22tween them, they have put them up. They have had insufficient help.
0:06:22 > 0:06:26They have been on a drip feed from the international community, geo-
0:06:26 > 0:06:30strategically shortsighted, as well as morally wrong.Interestingly, you
0:06:30 > 0:06:34have introduced this word moral into the conversation. It is a word that
0:06:34 > 0:06:38appears time and again in this book you have written, called Rescue. How
0:06:38 > 0:06:44come having been in politics for so long you have now become so, if I
0:06:44 > 0:06:48may say so, naive and unrealistic about the degree to which qualities
0:06:48 > 0:06:55like empathy and ultras can drive policy-making? -- altruism.Well,
0:06:55 > 0:07:00hope people will not just read the title, rescue, but also the
0:07:00 > 0:07:04subtitle, refugees and the political crisis of our time. The refusal to
0:07:04 > 0:07:07live up to international humanitarian law, never mind higher
0:07:07 > 0:07:11moral standards, is a real one. I don't mind to be fair to myself, I
0:07:11 > 0:07:15will take the hits that are coming, but when I was Foreign Minister I
0:07:15 > 0:07:19went to the Jaffna peninsula, I met Sri Lankan women who had pieces of
0:07:19 > 0:07:22paper from a government with the names of their husbands who had been
0:07:22 > 0:07:26taken away, and they were asking me, when will I see my husband again?
0:07:26 > 0:07:30And of course I didn't have a good answer to give them. I don't think
0:07:30 > 0:07:33it is made to call others humanitarian issues. One of the
0:07:33 > 0:07:37things I have learnt in this job is that while it is true political
0:07:37 > 0:07:41failure causes humanitarian crisis, my point is also that it is
0:07:41 > 0:07:44humanitarian crisis which then leads to political instability. The real
0:07:44 > 0:07:48money that he is to think you can ignore humanitarian needs, whether
0:07:48 > 0:07:52it is in north-eastern Algeria, Nigeria, Pakistan, the Middle East,
0:07:52 > 0:07:57and not expect to have political repercussions.It seems you are out
0:07:57 > 0:08:01of touch with the popular mood and 70 countries. Arguably native
0:08:01 > 0:08:05country, the UK, the country you live in, the United States, the
0:08:05 > 0:08:12continent that is your home, Europe. Let me make me if I am -- let me
0:08:12 > 0:08:17say, the ideal of treating strangers are brothers and sisters can and
0:08:17 > 0:08:21must be maintained. In part, you say that by welcoming refugees into our
0:08:21 > 0:08:25own countries and embracing them in our places of work and our centres
0:08:25 > 0:08:30of worship and around our own dinner tables, are you really in sync with
0:08:30 > 0:08:35the way people in the rich Western world are feeling?I think the truth
0:08:35 > 0:08:40is I am in sync with some. People often ask me what it is like to lead
0:08:40 > 0:08:43a humanitarian organisation when people help refugees and displaced
0:08:43 > 0:08:46April, at a time of backlash against refugees, which is basically what
0:08:46 > 0:08:51you are saying.It is.My answer is that every person who fears refugees
0:08:51 > 0:08:56or doesn't want to give humanitarian aid, because most of the will be to
0:08:56 > 0:08:59people who are far away rather than entering European countries, for
0:08:59 > 0:09:02every person like that who is fearful, there is somebody else
0:09:02 > 0:09:06saying, hang on, this is my family history. This is the history of my
0:09:06 > 0:09:09neighbour. This is something that I am proud my country does. You see
0:09:09 > 0:09:13that polarisation rather than a simple backlash. My argument is that
0:09:13 > 0:09:20actually, the refugee crisis is manageable not insoluble, that it is
0:09:20 > 0:09:24to succumb to the worst form of fatalism to believe it is insoluble,
0:09:24 > 0:09:28and whether you are in business or politics whether you are a private
0:09:28 > 0:09:32citizen, there is a role for you to play, and that is what the book
0:09:32 > 0:09:35explains.If you are still a -- still an MP for South Shields, an
0:09:35 > 0:09:38industrial seat in northern England, which voted overwhelmingly for
0:09:38 > 0:09:43Brexit, and all the social surveys that choose -- social attitudes
0:09:43 > 0:09:47surveys suggest that was driven by an anti-immigrant feeling, if you
0:09:47 > 0:09:51were still an MP, do you think you would have the same faith in the
0:09:51 > 0:09:56arguments around altruism?I have lots of faith in the common sense of
0:09:56 > 0:10:00people in South Shields. This is what I would say if I was there and
0:10:00 > 0:10:04P. I would say that at the moment, the UK takes six refugees her
0:10:04 > 0:10:07Parliamentary constituency. Then I would say to the people of South
0:10:07 > 0:10:11Shields, no way are you going to persuade me that six people are
0:10:11 > 0:10:16going to overwhelm or "Flood" a constituency of 50 5000. And
0:10:16 > 0:10:20actually, Britain can do more on the refugee resettlement fund without
0:10:20 > 0:10:23ever falling into the fallacy that written is going to take the 1.5
0:10:23 > 0:10:27million refugees Lebanon has taken. Have you pause to consider why
0:10:27 > 0:10:34sermon is successful nationalist opposition 's, such as in the Czech
0:10:34 > 0:10:38Republic the United States, have succeeded, in large part by
0:10:38 > 0:10:42delivering a message which is about building walls, closing borders and
0:10:42 > 0:10:47telling immigrants they are not welcome? -- so many successful
0:10:47 > 0:10:52nationalist politicians.Yes, and one of the reasons for writing this
0:10:52 > 0:10:55book was the complacency among people who think that well-managed
0:10:55 > 0:11:00refugee systems are agreed across partisan lines. We need to puncture
0:11:00 > 0:11:03that complacency. We need to make the argument about why it is not
0:11:03 > 0:11:07just a question about having a big part but also a sound head, to say
0:11:07 > 0:11:11that managing the refugee crisis is not just the right thing to do, it
0:11:11 > 0:11:15is the smart thing to do.I keep coming back to this point. It is
0:11:15 > 0:11:20much easier for you to say this now, as the head of an NGO, than it ever
0:11:20 > 0:11:23was for you as Foreign Secretary or an MP representing an industrial
0:11:23 > 0:11:26zone in Britain.The allegation against the government I was part of
0:11:26 > 0:11:31is not that it did too little to those people. It did too much. The
0:11:31 > 0:11:34allegation is that when the European Union expanded to include eight
0:11:34 > 0:11:37countries in 2004, the argument, and it is a correct argument, if that
0:11:37 > 0:11:40were should have had a transitional plan for the arrival of those
0:11:40 > 0:11:43immigrants, not simply allow the free movement of labour.Let me
0:11:43 > 0:11:46pause you there. That is interesting, what you have just
0:11:46 > 0:11:49said. It is indeed true that Tony Blair's government, which you are
0:11:49 > 0:11:53part of, said open borders to the accession countries, all the those
0:11:53 > 0:11:57workers who came from countries that make you are arguing I would not
0:11:57 > 0:11:59have done that in government. Actually, we did do that in
0:11:59 > 0:12:03government. We did have open access for the eight accession countries.
0:12:03 > 0:12:07The whole argument is about refugees. Desperate migrants. These
0:12:07 > 0:12:12are not desperate migrants. They were people who, according to the
0:12:12 > 0:12:16rules of the EU, could come. I am always interested when a former
0:12:16 > 0:12:20politician confesses to the stakes. You think it was a fun mistake?
0:12:20 > 0:12:24Absolutely. We didn't anticipate the number that would come in. You are
0:12:24 > 0:12:29right, though, to make the point that a refugee as distinct from an
0:12:29 > 0:12:33economic immigrant or an economic migrant. A refugee as someone with a
0:12:33 > 0:12:37well founded fear of this fusion. The six 5 million figure that you
0:12:37 > 0:12:42quoted at the beginning of the programme, 25 million refugees, 40
0:12:42 > 0:12:44million internally displaced, are people who fled their homes because
0:12:44 > 0:12:48they are not safe in their own homes. Those people have greater
0:12:48 > 0:12:53rights in international law, and their responsibilities greater, the
0:12:53 > 0:12:56states have a great responsibility towards them, and I would argue for
0:12:56 > 0:13:00good reason. It is not that refugees are good and immigrants are bad, it
0:13:00 > 0:13:04is that they are different. If you are not safe in your home it is
0:13:04 > 0:13:07right that you should have rights under international law. We need to
0:13:07 > 0:13:11defend them for reasons of morality, to use your word, but also for
0:13:11 > 0:13:16reasons of common sense.That's talk about security. You slipped in a
0:13:16 > 0:13:19reference to it in one of your answers and suggested it was wrong
0:13:19 > 0:13:22for politicians in the west to pose immigration as a security challenge.
0:13:22 > 0:13:31But actually, if you look at the facts on the ground, a holy book
0:13:31 > 0:13:35politicians -- whole heap of politicians, starting with Donald
0:13:35 > 0:13:38Trump but one can look at France and the Netherlands and elsewhere, have
0:13:38 > 0:13:41realised that if they connect immigration to security of our
0:13:41 > 0:13:44mining and incredibly fertile area. Two points I would make on that.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48One, and your question, if I may say so, did this, when the issues of
0:13:48 > 0:13:52immigration become mixed up with the issues of refugees, that is a recipe
0:13:52 > 0:13:56for trouble. Because there are very large numbers of people who want to
0:13:56 > 0:13:59emigrate, and relatively speaking, smaller, a quarter or even one fifth
0:13:59 > 0:14:06the number, who are refugees. So the first thing is, the refugee regime
0:14:06 > 0:14:10is different from the immigration regime. The second point, that is
0:14:10 > 0:14:13really important, is that refugees in the US, and I think you have the
0:14:13 > 0:14:16quota there, Donald Trump called Syrian refugees the Trojan horse
0:14:16 > 0:14:21that was coming to America. Now, it is harder to get to America as a
0:14:21 > 0:14:26refugee than any other route. It takes 18 months of vetting, 12- 15
0:14:26 > 0:14:29government agencies, you are put through the mill to make sure you
0:14:29 > 0:14:34are not going to be a threat to the United States when you come as a
0:14:34 > 0:14:39resettled refugee.
0:14:39 > 0:14:43The truth is they have become a tragic Americans because they know
0:14:43 > 0:14:48the value of freedom. And don't they do it when they get the chance.Let
0:14:48 > 0:14:52us switch from the refugee crisis to, perhaps a computing, a personal
0:14:52 > 0:14:57journey you have been making in recent years, or way from Britain
0:14:57 > 0:15:03and politics dashmac clunky. Your decision to go to New York, to take
0:15:03 > 0:15:07the job at the head of International Rescue, was it part of dealing with
0:15:07 > 0:15:12a grievously painful process, you needed to get out, you needed a safe
0:15:12 > 0:15:18haven of your own.I was a backbench MP in Britain who had previously
0:15:18 > 0:15:24been Foreign Minister. I would not want to claim safe haven.You know
0:15:24 > 0:15:30what I am saying.Coming out of my mouth that might seem like I am
0:15:30 > 0:15:34trying to claim a degree of high ground that I don't deserve. I was
0:15:34 > 0:15:40clear that they faced, by 2012, 2013, I was in the situation where
0:15:40 > 0:15:44either I was silent about the position of my party, or I was
0:15:44 > 0:15:48accused of dividing my party.For those who do but, you ran for the
0:15:48 > 0:15:52leadership of the party, were favourite to win it, you ultimately
0:15:52 > 0:15:56beaten by your younger brother, Ed Miliband. It was in a sense,
0:15:56 > 0:16:00rejection, and Fady in the face of your own family member, but a
0:16:00 > 0:16:04rejection from your own wider family, the Labour Party, of which
0:16:04 > 0:16:07it had been a member all of your adult life. It must have been
0:16:07 > 0:16:11extraordinarily difficult to deal with.Yes, yes. But part of being an
0:16:11 > 0:16:16adult rather than a child is that you learn to deal with these things.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19Many adults find it very difficult to do with rejection.I always say
0:16:19 > 0:16:23whether you are running three double go for the leadership of a party, if
0:16:23 > 0:16:27you feel like you cannot consecrate -- at the consulate is a project you
0:16:27 > 0:16:31should do it. You need to think about what you would do if you win
0:16:31 > 0:16:35but also what you do if you don't. I was in the position where we lost
0:16:35 > 0:16:40the general election in 2010, I lost the leadership election. I wanted to
0:16:40 > 0:16:44make sure I could put into practice what I had learned. What I have had
0:16:44 > 0:16:48the privilege to do for the last four years is to lead a humanitarian
0:16:48 > 0:16:53organisation that has not has grown in size, helping 26 million people,
0:16:53 > 0:16:57not just in budget, we are a now $750 billion organisation, but is
0:16:57 > 0:17:01also charting a new course for the way in which humanitarian aid can be
0:17:01 > 0:17:05adapted to the demands of the modern world.We have talked about your
0:17:05 > 0:17:08ideas on that already. I now want to stick with what you left behind,
0:17:08 > 0:17:12that is the Labour Party, your career, and the personal issues. Why
0:17:12 > 0:17:21do you think you lost?I think that people wanted more of a change. They
0:17:21 > 0:17:25decided that they wanted more of a shift from the governing philosophy,
0:17:25 > 0:17:32I say in the book, that I made the transition from governing to
0:17:32 > 0:17:36campaigning to slowly.You mean you were not a good enough retail
0:17:36 > 0:17:44politician?Maybe. You can say that. I think it was a time shortly after
0:17:44 > 0:17:48the financial crisis, the beginnings of the tumult in politics, and
0:17:48 > 0:17:52although I have tried not to spend all my time reflecting on the past,
0:17:52 > 0:17:56it is a perfectly legitimate question to ask, but I think there's
0:17:56 > 0:17:59two factors eyesight are probably the right ones.Is not just
0:17:59 > 0:18:05personal, it is also political. -- it is not disposal. Your brother did
0:18:05 > 0:18:12not win either. The Labour Party now chosen leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who
0:18:12 > 0:18:16was avowedly socialist and avowedly of the real left, not the
0:18:16 > 0:18:21centre-left, the Blairite left.We are the centre-left.You would never
0:18:21 > 0:18:28call yourself a socialist stop-go hapless fan of socialist values.
0:18:28 > 0:18:35There is a social democratic tradition.I always vote Labour and
0:18:35 > 0:18:42encourage people to vote Labour. The truth is, politics is open. He did
0:18:42 > 0:18:46better in the last election and many of us thought, but there are No
0:18:46 > 0:18:51civil -- silver medals and politics. The question now is where does
0:18:51 > 0:18:54Britain go. I think that is not just a question about Labour versus
0:18:54 > 0:18:58conservative, the truth is Britain faces an even bigger question before
0:18:58 > 0:19:04it faces a Labour versus Tory election. What is its future as an
0:19:04 > 0:19:08economic, social, and political power in the world? That is wrapped
0:19:08 > 0:19:13up in this Brexit issue, which goes beyond the party politics.Your old
0:19:13 > 0:19:17boss, Tony Blair, has very much and the fray on the Brexit issue. He
0:19:17 > 0:19:21speaks about it a lot. He says there is No question in his mind that this
0:19:21 > 0:19:25is not settled, that the British public has a right to change its
0:19:25 > 0:19:29mind and he still believes there is a serious possibility that Britain
0:19:29 > 0:19:34ultimately won't leave the European Union. Do you feel the same and are
0:19:34 > 0:19:40you prepared to fight the fight in the way that Tony Blair is?We don't
0:19:40 > 0:19:45know how this is going to play out, this Brexit phenomenon. This Brexit
0:19:45 > 0:19:51decision. We also know that democracy cannot be allowed to die
0:19:51 > 0:19:55the day of a referendum. The referendum on June 23, 2016 cannot
0:19:55 > 0:20:00be the end of debate, scrutiny, questioning about whether this
0:20:00 > 0:20:06Brexit decision is in the interests of the people.It is a decision. We
0:20:06 > 0:20:10know we are leaving. Article 50 was triggered a long time ago.It is a
0:20:10 > 0:20:13very British thing to think that because you have ordered a milk you
0:20:13 > 0:20:18have to eat it, even if it comes to your table in a very different form
0:20:18 > 0:20:22from what look like on the menu. What do you think the chances are
0:20:22 > 0:20:29then... ?I will not give you a percentage. Written is on a course
0:20:29 > 0:20:33to leave. But that does not mean it is certain that is going to happen
0:20:33 > 0:20:38-- Britain. Every week there are new facts that come before the British
0:20:38 > 0:20:42people. That's about the fact that we will have two create our own
0:20:42 > 0:20:47repertory structures. Facts about the political implications. I have
0:20:47 > 0:20:51described this is an act of unilateral political disarmament.
0:20:51 > 0:20:56Our withdrawal from the European Union.Let me quote the words of
0:20:56 > 0:21:00William Hay, a former Foreign Secretary. He said this reflecting
0:21:00 > 0:21:04on the notion that there might be some change of heart in Britain, a
0:21:04 > 0:21:08new referendum will study said, "There is no alternative to making
0:21:08 > 0:21:14Brexit work will. Millions of people would be enraged by an elite tried
0:21:14 > 0:21:19to overturn their opinion." Mindful of how the people of your old
0:21:19 > 0:21:23constituency voted, can you not see that he is right and it would be
0:21:23 > 0:21:26damaging and corrosive to the UK to reopen this?The question is whether
0:21:26 > 0:21:30it would be more damaging than proceeding to drive off the cliff.
0:21:30 > 0:21:34That is what we are being asked. Wiliam Hague, having voted to
0:21:34 > 0:21:37remain, he says he would vote to leave in the interest of
0:21:37 > 0:21:40consistency.I think in the interests of the health of the
0:21:40 > 0:21:45country.The truth is, it would be wrong, I think I says an elite to
0:21:45 > 0:21:49cut under decision of millions of voters. My point is, millions of
0:21:49 > 0:21:53voters, first of all, Parliament should be able to compare life
0:21:53 > 0:21:58within the European Union and light outside. And they never had what
0:21:58 > 0:22:03life outside will be presented to them. It is essential that it is.
0:22:03 > 0:22:07The fact that Brexit are becoming clear. Europe is changing under the
0:22:07 > 0:22:10leadership of Mr Macron and Mrs Merkel. There is a new dynamic.
0:22:10 > 0:22:20Final thought. Wearout of time. Phil Collins, it someone you know well,
0:22:20 > 0:22:24he said "Imagine a third force in British politics now, David Miliband
0:22:24 > 0:22:29comes back from New York to lead it, it would be attracting new people
0:22:29 > 0:22:34into politics. Could that not too well? I believe it could. I doubt it
0:22:34 > 0:22:40is just me. It would be exciting to find out." So how about it?The real
0:22:40 > 0:22:45lesson of Emmanuel Macron is different...Never mind the lesson
0:22:45 > 0:22:48of Macron. I want to know if you will listen to Phil Collins, come
0:22:48 > 0:22:53back, and because Labour doesn't put you any more, think about a third
0:22:53 > 0:22:57party?I am not spending my time thinking about a third party, for a
0:22:57 > 0:23:00couple of reasons. The British Parliament system is very different
0:23:00 > 0:23:05from the French presidential system. The two mean British political
0:23:05 > 0:23:09parties got more votes between them that any election since Bettoni
0:23:09 > 0:23:15five. The third issue is the Brexit issue which goes beyond the question
0:23:15 > 0:23:18of new parties. It is about existing parties and existing MPs coming to
0:23:18 > 0:23:24grips with their responsibilities. Is that a categorical no Casilla I
0:23:24 > 0:23:27did not city part in which, there is already a central particle the
0:23:27 > 0:23:33Liberal.The real issue is for progressive centre-left thinking to
0:23:33 > 0:23:41renew and are a vital as itself -- centre-left party. It is the
0:23:41 > 0:23:46pressures that face industrialised Western countries.We have to enter.
0:23:46 > 0:23:53David Miliband. They being on talk. -- thanks for being on HARDtalk.