0:00:01 > 0:00:11Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:11 > 0:00:12Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:12 > 0:00:14I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Is there a single Russian who doesn't expect Vladimir Putin
0:00:17 > 0:00:20to contest next spring's presidential election
0:00:20 > 0:00:22and win it easily?
0:00:22 > 0:00:25Mr Putin has yet to declare his intentions,
0:00:25 > 0:00:28but his desire to prolong his dominance of Russia
0:00:28 > 0:00:32is surely not in doubt.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34Less certain is whether the president will face
0:00:34 > 0:00:39a credible opponent.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42Ksenia Sobchak has one big advantage -
0:00:42 > 0:00:44almost universal name recognition thanks to her TV career
0:00:44 > 0:00:51but is her candidacy anything more than a fig leaf for the Kremlin?
0:01:20 > 0:01:30Ksenia Sobchak welcome to heart talk. Thank you. You have a very big
0:01:30 > 0:01:35ambition. What are the qualities, the acids needed to be president of
0:01:35 > 0:01:42Russia?First of all, in modern Russia, the quality which is needed
0:01:42 > 0:01:48to challenge Putin and to challenge him for a change is to be brave
0:01:48 > 0:01:56because elections in Russia now are not elections in Belgium. It is not
0:01:56 > 0:02:01like trying to become Prime Minister in not very big European country.
0:02:01 > 0:02:10Here, when you come into politics, you can face very big problems and
0:02:10 > 0:02:17there were already braids in my home, all my work was finished after
0:02:17 > 0:02:21I said about my political views is a goat and my life changed
0:02:21 > 0:02:29dramatically when I first went out on the street. -- years ago. Now,
0:02:29 > 0:02:34when I take the challenge, I read it lies the risks that come with it and
0:02:34 > 0:02:40that the situation can be harsh for me.Bravery seems important to you
0:02:40 > 0:02:45and I understand why and I would like to talk to you about what you
0:02:45 > 0:02:50have experienced since joining the activist opposition but I am
0:02:50 > 0:02:56surprised you do not use any words like experience, knowledge, an
0:02:56 > 0:03:01encounter in the past with managing something sick if it can. You are a
0:03:01 > 0:03:06woman in your 30s, you have no experience of that can possibly the
0:03:06 > 0:03:11relevant to becoming president of Russia.That is why I did not
0:03:11 > 0:03:16mention experience because now in Russian politics, to be brave, to be
0:03:16 > 0:03:23persistent, are the main qualities. I am not a politician, I am a
0:03:23 > 0:03:27person, a journalist who knows the situation in my country is unjust
0:03:27 > 0:03:34and I would love that may country would have fair elections were
0:03:34 > 0:03:36everyone, people with big experiences, with different
0:03:36 > 0:03:42political views, could take part and debate and I could come back home
0:03:42 > 0:03:49and do my job. No, it is not like this. There are not so many people
0:03:49 > 0:03:53willing to take this challenge so I think it is my responsibility to be
0:03:53 > 0:03:59raised, to be persistent and to try to change. Around me, there are are
0:03:59 > 0:04:04a lot of experts, a lot of people with the knowledge of economies,
0:04:04 > 0:04:10politics, of institutions of Russia stopped they are part of my team and
0:04:10 > 0:04:13they are helping me to form a big programme and to be together.
0:04:13 > 0:04:22Usually, with politicians all one of the politicians, I am testing the
0:04:22 > 0:04:26resolve and ability to do their job. He did not even seem to believe in
0:04:26 > 0:04:32yourself that you have what it takes to do your job because when you are
0:04:32 > 0:04:36launching your campaign, he said I have no political weight, I have not
0:04:36 > 0:04:44earned the right to stand as a candidate.No, Stephen. It is not
0:04:44 > 0:04:48like this. I would say again, I think the most important thing in
0:04:48 > 0:04:53Russia is not to change the system and this is the most important part
0:04:53 > 0:05:01of this programme. I forming a big programme with lots of experts on
0:05:01 > 0:05:05economy and different kinds of things but I want to stress one
0:05:05 > 0:05:09thing, this is not that important now because we can release all the
0:05:09 > 0:05:13programmes in the world but they never managed to come to life
0:05:13 > 0:05:21because the system itself is so that any programme you offer it is always
0:05:21 > 0:05:26rejected so what is the point of being hypocritical. Let's say the
0:05:26 > 0:05:31truth, that the main thing is to change the system.There needs to be
0:05:31 > 0:05:36a credible agent of change and I would say that to many people you
0:05:36 > 0:05:43are not a credible agent of change. If we look at the record- you were a
0:05:43 > 0:05:49reality TV star... It was 15 years ago. You also hosted the reality
0:05:49 > 0:05:58show, Dom-2...I was the first journalist of the world who took an
0:05:58 > 0:06:07interview...You have also sold a fragrance on how to marry a
0:06:07 > 0:06:15millionaire...It was 15 years ago. I would suggest your track record is
0:06:15 > 0:06:20not someone who is serious in becoming president of Russia.We
0:06:20 > 0:06:27haven't great film in Russia, in the end, the Hiro of the movie sets, the
0:06:27 > 0:06:32most awful things in this world were done with the most serious face so
0:06:32 > 0:06:36people first laugh at you but then they fight with it and then you win.
0:06:36 > 0:06:44As you know, they're saying. I am not afraid of being ridiculed. I.e.
0:06:44 > 0:06:52No am not ridiculous. I know I have done a huge job. --I know I am not
0:06:52 > 0:06:57ridiculous. I am working on the all Independent TV channel, I make a lot
0:06:57 > 0:07:03of journalist report and done a lot of interviews I helped Alexei
0:07:03 > 0:07:09Navalny...We will get with Alexei Navalny in just a moment because his
0:07:09 > 0:07:14views on the York candid and see a report but you said to me, do not
0:07:14 > 0:07:22judge me...Let me finish...The point is this is a question and
0:07:22 > 0:07:31answer. You said Judge me on the people you have around you. One
0:07:31 > 0:07:37person who two weeks after you hide him left the campaign saying it was
0:07:37 > 0:07:43chaotic and are designed on the back of a cigarette packet.One to answer
0:07:43 > 0:07:48the question about my profession. That rings AU mentioned happened 50
0:07:48 > 0:07:52years ago, that is a huge time. People have a ready come away from
0:07:52 > 0:07:58prison and begin their life. I started my career as a journalist
0:07:58 > 0:08:03and I did a lot of sensational work, not only in terms of Russia but in
0:08:03 > 0:08:09terms of international journalistic work so I think this itself gives me
0:08:09 > 0:08:14the right to present myself in a different way...Interesting you say
0:08:14 > 0:08:20that. I have been a journalist for 30 years and I not sure that
0:08:20 > 0:08:26qualifies me to be Prime Minister of the UK...When I came to the
0:08:26 > 0:08:32campaign I had zero people who really believed in what I do. Now,
0:08:32 > 0:08:45it is already 10%, more than the last it elections. 10%...Another
0:08:45 > 0:08:51poll has yet at 1% and another poll has your disapproval... You can
0:08:51 > 0:08:57check the numbers are... 9% saying they might support you but it
0:08:57 > 0:09:03suggests that more than 60% disapprove of you and only 20%
0:09:03 > 0:09:10approved. Your negatives are very high.What is a 20% out of 95% of
0:09:10 > 0:09:17people knowing? It is a huge number. It could be the second place in
0:09:17 > 0:09:21those elections and even the first place if people really believe they
0:09:21 > 0:09:32can change the situation.20% is really a lot. You -- your campaign
0:09:32 > 0:09:38manager left after two weeks. Alexei Navalny, the leading anti- Putin
0:09:38 > 0:09:44said when he first learnt you were going to be a candidate. He said
0:09:44 > 0:09:52this is a loathsome Kremlin game... You at telling a non- truth. He said
0:09:52 > 0:09:57it before I went to the election... When your neighbour was put forward
0:09:57 > 0:10:04a... That was two weeks before I put my name.This again is called let's
0:10:04 > 0:10:10put a Liberal laughing stock up for elections... When your name was
0:10:10 > 0:10:17mooted. In order to distract attention. Alexei Navalny sees you
0:10:17 > 0:10:23as someone fundamentally unserious...Not now. After I put my
0:10:23 > 0:10:29name and said I will take part in the elections, I have not heard
0:10:29 > 0:10:35anything critical off Alexei Navalny's leaps. You can check these
0:10:35 > 0:10:44information. -- lips.Are you suggesting to me that Alexei Navalny
0:10:44 > 0:10:49is supporting your campaign?I hoping that he will register to
0:10:49 > 0:10:57support me. He will not be registered by unlawful laws made
0:10:57 > 0:11:02against him so if we are fighting for the same goal, and I think we
0:11:02 > 0:11:09are, I offer him this option to be, you know, the person who just opens
0:11:09 > 0:11:14the door. I am the one to be registered and I hope together with
0:11:14 > 0:11:19him that we can fight for that best future in Russia.He said that if
0:11:19 > 0:11:26Alexei Navalny is allowed to run for the elections, you have said...It
0:11:26 > 0:11:32is unlawful not to make him run it...Your position still stand that
0:11:32 > 0:11:35if the electoral committee changes its mind and Alexei Navalny is
0:11:35 > 0:11:40allowed to run at you would act down?Of course because of Alexei
0:11:40 > 0:11:46Navalny has much more political weight than I do. I really respect
0:11:46 > 0:11:51his work. He is a hero in many ways stop if this opportunity for him
0:11:51 > 0:11:58would be open, of course, I think we should unite behind one leader and
0:11:58 > 0:12:08he is a good leader... If not... I did not finish. But Mr...Alexei
0:12:08 > 0:12:14Navalny disagrees. He says he will not help you gather this is the
0:12:14 > 0:12:20signatures you need but it would be better to boycott this Sharat.I
0:12:20 > 0:12:28have not heard Alexei Navalny saying this. Anyway, I do not think and do
0:12:28 > 0:12:33not think it is a good idea to have a boycott because sitting at home,
0:12:33 > 0:12:38no country has ever change.The chief spokesman for Mr Putin
0:12:38 > 0:12:48actually welcomed... As soon as you he will come due.This is what they
0:12:48 > 0:12:52are doing every day, trying to hug it to death, trying to say to people
0:12:52 > 0:13:00that she is Kremlin's candidate. This is their dirty game. If you
0:13:00 > 0:13:07know what they did yesterday, I will tell you, are part of the
0:13:07 > 0:13:11presidential administrator goes to the election as a candidate, saying
0:13:11 > 0:13:17he goes against Putin but it is laughable. He goes against me. This
0:13:17 > 0:13:23is a dirty game they play stop from one side they say we want her to be
0:13:23 > 0:13:28part of us but I do not want to be part of them. They are trying to hug
0:13:28 > 0:13:34me so tight in their rounds and they sent a spoiler to my campaign, a
0:13:34 > 0:13:38person who worked in the administration of the President...
0:13:38 > 0:13:44This is laughable. Let's test this proposition that you truly, truly
0:13:44 > 0:13:48are an opponent committed to bringing Putin down. Alexei Navalny
0:13:48 > 0:13:53said that the difference is that Vladimir Putin has not helped my
0:13:53 > 0:14:00family, because Vladimir Putin was the protege of your family.I am
0:14:00 > 0:14:06sorry to disappoint you and the disappoint Alexei Navalny but it is
0:14:06 > 0:14:10better to say that Vladimir Putin was a protege of my father. I father
0:14:10 > 0:14:17was an M O U...When a Vladimir Putin was a junior official...No
0:14:17 > 0:14:23one helped my father whatsoever. It is my father who helped Putin to
0:14:23 > 0:14:30work with him and Putin was one of the people he worked with. But I was
0:14:30 > 0:14:36attending his old at this time.
0:14:36 > 0:14:40Why have you always avoided saying Putin himself was deeply corrupt, as
0:14:40 > 0:14:44Navalny puts it, the father of Russian corruption? You have never
0:14:44 > 0:14:48attacked Putin personally, when Boris Nemtsov was assassinated, and
0:14:48 > 0:14:53many critics of Putin said Putin was behind it, you said absolutely not,
0:14:53 > 0:14:58that is not what Vladimir Putin would do. Why do you defend him in
0:14:58 > 0:15:02this way?I am not defending him, I am just telling the truth, even if
0:15:02 > 0:15:07it is politically not unsuitable. I really think Putin didn't sent
0:15:07 > 0:15:14anyone to kill Nemtsov. I know it is beyond what he would decide. Nemtsov
0:15:14 > 0:15:20was not an enemy.How do you know that?I am just totally sure of the
0:15:20 > 0:15:24principles on which I stand. He would never do it like this.At the
0:15:24 > 0:15:29beginning of this interview you told me you have had rates, that you have
0:15:29 > 0:15:32been intimidated, that you have to be brave to be a politician in
0:15:32 > 0:15:39Russia today.Not to kill someone near the Kremlin is something to do
0:15:39 > 0:15:43against not only their position, but also against Putin, because, you
0:15:43 > 0:15:46know, this situation would be a really harsh situation for Putin
0:15:46 > 0:15:50himself. Look on someone in the opposition is killed on the streets
0:15:50 > 0:15:55right near the Kremlin. And Nemtsov, I respect him very much and consider
0:15:55 > 0:15:59him to be my friend, but he was not a political figure with a lot of
0:15:59 > 0:16:03weight at that moment, and this is also true. So there was no sense of
0:16:03 > 0:16:07killing him, because he was not a threat to Putin at that moment.So
0:16:07 > 0:16:11on that level you are saying that you don't believe Putin has that in
0:16:11 > 0:16:15him. But, on another level, having told me that you deeply respect Mr
0:16:15 > 0:16:20Navalny, and you regard him as the Leader of the Opposition...Yes,.
0:16:20 > 0:16:25Would you echoed Mr Navalny's position that Putin is himself the
0:16:25 > 0:16:29father of Russian corruption, and that the people around Mr Putin are
0:16:29 > 0:16:35the most corrupt of all. Would you agree with that?I say there's a lot
0:16:35 > 0:16:39of times and I would also mention that I personally make a lot of
0:16:39 > 0:16:41effort into some of the investigations of Navalny, and you
0:16:41 > 0:16:46can speak with him, and he will confirm it to you. At least two of
0:16:46 > 0:16:49his investigations were done with my help. So of course I think the whole
0:16:49 > 0:16:53system is corrupt, and the whole... Of course the system was built by
0:16:53 > 0:16:57Putin.So you would like to see Putin investigated and charged?At
0:16:57 > 0:17:03what I am saying that I don't like, when people personally insulting,
0:17:03 > 0:17:06and Navalny is also doing this. He was coming in the square and saying,
0:17:06 > 0:17:11look, he has Botox in his face. This I detest. I don't like to speak
0:17:11 > 0:17:17personally bad about...But you are accusing Mr Putin of Kringle
0:17:17 > 0:17:21corruption, aren't you?I am not saying the way he looks, or I don't
0:17:21 > 0:17:26call him with some words.Forget about his looks, I am interested in
0:17:26 > 0:17:30his criminal corruption. Do you want to see Vladimir Putin put on trial?
0:17:30 > 0:17:34I want to see an independent trial of all the cases of corruption in
0:17:34 > 0:17:39Russia. Of course, yes.Including Mr Putin?. Also I have a very
0:17:39 > 0:17:42important goal which I have to reach, with Navalny or without
0:17:42 > 0:17:50Navalny. I want to build in Russia party after those elections. A
0:17:50 > 0:17:55strong party with strong leadership, which 46 next year can come to the
0:17:55 > 0:18:04next presidential elections with a really big result. -- for six. In
0:18:04 > 0:18:08order to have evolution, and not revolution of the system. It is not
0:18:08 > 0:18:14accusations harsh on a person. It is accusations with fact, which should
0:18:14 > 0:18:20be placed. This is what I think is very important.What did you really
0:18:20 > 0:18:24mean when you said this? A higher transfer of power, the likes of
0:18:24 > 0:18:28which Mr Navalny is advocating, is a dead end. You say that your ideal
0:18:28 > 0:18:32transformation would be led by democratic politicians, that Mr
0:18:32 > 0:18:41Putin can trust, like for example, former deputy PM. You seem to be
0:18:41 > 0:18:45saying that actually you prefer Putin in power with some technocrats
0:18:45 > 0:18:49around him and the more liberal advisers.This is not what I meant.
0:18:49 > 0:18:55Then you would Mr Navalny, who you respect so much.I just said and I
0:18:55 > 0:19:00can say once again that between evolution and revolution I would
0:19:00 > 0:19:04always choose revolution. And if this way would be done by Putin or
0:19:04 > 0:19:09by someone else, I think it is the best way for Russia. The
0:19:09 > 0:19:14evolutionary way of liberalisation. The new Paris Troika. This is my
0:19:14 > 0:19:18main goal. I don't want another revolution on the streets, because
0:19:18 > 0:19:22this will be blood, and we know how it ends up.What I am continuing to
0:19:22 > 0:19:26wrestle with this simple idea of where you actually set when it comes
0:19:26 > 0:19:29to Vladimir Putin and power -- Perestroika.I don't sit with
0:19:29 > 0:19:34Vladimir Putin.Well, could at some confusion for me.I sat with my
0:19:34 > 0:19:38father when I was ten years old, but you know, children sometimes really
0:19:38 > 0:19:42revolt against the system created by someone close to their parents. That
0:19:42 > 0:19:46is quite logical.All right, well, clear up one other element of
0:19:46 > 0:19:50confusion for me, and this concerns Russia's overseas policy, its
0:19:50 > 0:19:54foreign policy, and of course, in particular its policy in Ukraine and
0:19:54 > 0:20:00Crimea. Now, in 2014, after the annexation, you tweeted am I alone
0:20:00 > 0:20:05and proud, because you had picked up on some Twitter comment criticising
0:20:05 > 0:20:10the annexation. You said I am alone and proud in believing it was a
0:20:10 > 0:20:14brilliant political manoeuvre.Yes, but I didn't set about myself.A
0:20:14 > 0:20:18brilliant political manoeuvre.Yes, but you are not translating at the
0:20:18 > 0:20:23right way. I was answering someone about Putin thinking something of
0:20:23 > 0:20:27Crimea, and the idea, I still say it, that for Putin, in his mind,
0:20:27 > 0:20:31that is a brilliant solution, and he thinks that this is the best
0:20:31 > 0:20:35historical thing he did for Russia. And you will see it on the
0:20:35 > 0:20:38elections. It will be the main thing of his campaign. I made Crimea that
0:20:38 > 0:20:45to Russia. So in his mind, this was a brilliant thing, not in mine.So
0:20:45 > 0:20:49when you are saying you are proud to believe it was a brilliant and
0:20:49 > 0:20:52political manoeuvre, you only looking at it from his point of
0:20:52 > 0:20:56view.Of course.I see. Well, frankly, you didn't choose to tweak
0:20:56 > 0:21:00your absolute condemnation of the annexation of Crimea at the time,
0:21:00 > 0:21:07but you have done since. You now say Crimea is Ukrainian.I was this in
0:21:07 > 0:21:12the dialogue about Putin, -- putting myself into the shoes of Putin, who
0:21:12 > 0:21:16would of course be proud of this. This is his main thing he is proud
0:21:16 > 0:21:22of.I see, I see.And this is how we stand.We haven't time to go through
0:21:22 > 0:21:25all of your policies, on the economy, foreign policy, everything
0:21:25 > 0:21:31else.Let's do it.Well, we don't have time, but Russia is in a really
0:21:31 > 0:21:34difficult place economically. There are still sanctions on the country,
0:21:34 > 0:21:38your growth rate is 1% this year. You are very vulnerable to shifts in
0:21:38 > 0:21:42commodity prices. Do you believe, going back to this question of
0:21:42 > 0:21:54experience, that you have the ability to turn Russia around?I
0:21:54 > 0:21:57have an ability to create another system. And the system itself will
0:21:57 > 0:22:00create another economy, a free economy of trade, a free economy of
0:22:00 > 0:22:04innovations. The things that are needed is the changing of power, so
0:22:04 > 0:22:06the Parliamentary Republic, very strong government, instead of very
0:22:06 > 0:22:09strong president. I think the most important thing for Russia at this
0:22:09 > 0:22:13moment is to change presidential republic to Parliamentary Republic,
0:22:13 > 0:22:21because this will make those powers dissolve between different centres
0:22:21 > 0:22:25in the government. This is very important, and this is what I fight
0:22:25 > 0:22:31for. After this would be done, I believe strongly that, to build an
0:22:31 > 0:22:36economy based on liberal principles, based on property, not owned by
0:22:36 > 0:22:41government, but I business and people who really work on it, will
0:22:41 > 0:22:48be a matter of not really big-time. If, come March of next year, you are
0:22:48 > 0:22:54the main, quote unquote opposition candidates, fighting Vladimir
0:22:54 > 0:22:57Putin...I am not quote unquote, I am an Opposition Leader.And what
0:22:57 > 0:23:01happens is this, and it is the most likely scenario, according to all
0:23:01 > 0:23:05the polls, that Vladimir Putin scores an overwhelming, huge
0:23:05 > 0:23:09victory, and the Kremlin says, look, it was entirely legitimate, we had a
0:23:09 > 0:23:16real election, there was a choice. The choice was Putin against
0:23:16 > 0:23:21Sobchak, and Sobchak one -- Putin won a very, very big mandate. How
0:23:21 > 0:23:28will you feel about that? Will you feel like a useful idiot?It will be
0:23:28 > 0:23:33legitimate, because your Prime Minister or the President of America
0:23:33 > 0:23:38would be the first ones to call and legitimated for Mr Putin, by their
0:23:38 > 0:23:42congratulations. Or maybe have some doubts that your Prime Minister
0:23:42 > 0:23:47won't do it?So in your own words, you will be very useful
0:23:47 > 0:23:50legitimating...It is not because of me taking part in those elections.
0:23:50 > 0:23:55It is I fight for my people. I want them to be heard. I want Mr Putin to
0:23:55 > 0:23:59see how many people are against him in our country, because there are
0:23:59 > 0:24:09many people who are against his policy.Senior Sobchak, we have two
0:24:09 > 0:24:13end there, but thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.Thank you,
0:24:13 > 0:24:15thank you.