0:00:05 > 0:00:10Now on BBC News it is time for HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:11Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:13 > 0:00:16When the Spanish Government threw out the regional administration
0:00:16 > 0:00:20in Catalonia, imposed direct rule from Madrid and called regional
0:00:20 > 0:00:26elections, it took a calculated risk.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Next month we'll see whether it was well advised.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32If Catalans give a clear majority to pro-independence parties,
0:00:32 > 0:00:38Spain - and the European Union - will be facing a protracted crisis.
0:00:38 > 0:00:43My guest is Spain's Minister for EU Affairs, Jorge Toledo.
0:00:43 > 0:00:49Can Madrid outmanoeuvre the secessionists?
0:00:52 > 0:01:10THEME MUSIC
0:01:17 > 0:01:18Jorge Toledo, in Madrid, welcome to HARdtalk.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21Thank you very much.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24You presumably want the forces of unity, the political parties
0:01:24 > 0:01:29backing the integrity of Spain as it currently exists,
0:01:29 > 0:01:32you want them to win, don't you?
0:01:32 > 0:01:33Well, I do.
0:01:33 > 0:01:37But that is by personal opinion but that is not up to me.
0:01:37 > 0:01:39There is a regional election, this is is democracy.
0:01:39 > 0:01:44The Catalan people will in a perfectly legal,
0:01:44 > 0:01:46perfectly organised, monitored election, chose
0:01:46 > 0:01:48as they wish.
0:01:48 > 0:01:53Indeed, but my point is this, if you want the forces supporting
0:01:53 > 0:01:56unity to win, why don't you make it a little bit easier for those
0:01:57 > 0:01:59parties by acknowledging the grave mistakes that Madrid made
0:01:59 > 0:02:02in the run-up to and on the day of the Catalan referendum
0:02:02 > 0:02:04on independence?
0:02:04 > 0:02:11Surely that would help, if you actually said,
0:02:11 > 0:02:13you know what?
0:02:13 > 0:02:18We did make some terrible errors?
0:02:18 > 0:02:20Well, I do not need anybody...
0:02:20 > 0:02:23I do not need to acknowledge any mistakes.
0:02:23 > 0:02:29We all make mistakes but the biggest mistake here was to revoke by simple
0:02:29 > 0:02:32majority of the regional government, on the 6th and 7th of September,
0:02:32 > 0:02:34jumping over every legality, even their own legality,
0:02:34 > 0:02:36they revoked the basis of the rights and freedom
0:02:37 > 0:02:43of all Catalans in Catalonia.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46That was the biggest mistake.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49So let me criticise the mistakes, the great mistakes and the great
0:02:50 > 0:02:52damage they have done to Catalonia, economically, social fracture.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55The other day we lost a very good candidate to Barcelona
0:02:55 > 0:02:56because of this.
0:02:56 > 0:02:57Listen, this is the big issue.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00The damage that the independentist government and the independentist
0:03:00 > 0:03:12forces have done to Catalonia and this is going to be...
0:03:12 > 0:03:15We are going to recover from this because the first you need
0:03:15 > 0:03:16is legal certainty.
0:03:16 > 0:03:182700 companies have left Catalonia because of this.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22We want them to go back and for that they need legal certainty.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24When you revoke every legality, when you do not even
0:03:24 > 0:03:27follow your own legality, nobody wants to go to your place
0:03:27 > 0:03:36so let's restore legality and then we can build together.
0:03:36 > 0:03:40If I may interrupt you for just a second, I asked you for any
0:03:40 > 0:03:41acknowledgement of your mistake.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44Don't you worry, we will talk to the Catalan regional government,
0:03:44 > 0:03:48as it was, about the things they did but I need to press
0:03:48 > 0:03:55the you for things you did.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58For example, was it wise for you to use such powerful
0:03:58 > 0:04:01and polarising rhetoric, when you they called the referendum
0:04:01 > 0:04:04that they held in Catalonia - and I'm quoting you directly -
0:04:04 > 0:04:12"an evil illegal act".
0:04:12 > 0:04:14Why on earth did you call it evil?
0:04:14 > 0:04:16These are just civilians conducting a vote.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18No, it wasn't civilians conducting a vote.
0:04:18 > 0:04:21It was a government jumping over every, even their own regional law,
0:04:21 > 0:04:23the basis of legitimacy, breaking their own law,
0:04:23 > 0:04:26to approve convening a referendum which they knew was illegal.
0:04:26 > 0:04:33That is evil.
0:04:33 > 0:04:34That is not democracy.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37You cannot jump over your own democratic laws...
0:04:37 > 0:04:41Evil?
0:04:41 > 0:04:44..you change it by a simple majority, that's evil.
0:04:44 > 0:04:45OK, evil, it's illegal.
0:04:45 > 0:04:50Illegal in a democratic world.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53"Evil" is a word that indicates something about the mindset
0:04:53 > 0:04:58that the government in Madrid seems to have.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00Another thing thing that indicates your mindset is sending
0:05:00 > 0:05:03in security forces to stop peaceable men and women from voting,
0:05:03 > 0:05:08dragging them by their hair, beating them up.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11Human rights groups reporting that there were dozens of people
0:05:11 > 0:05:22who had injuries as a result.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25Again, if you were to say sorry for that, it might change
0:05:25 > 0:05:28the political atmosphere in the run-up to the December 21st
0:05:28 > 0:05:28vote.
0:05:28 > 0:05:29Will you do that?
0:05:29 > 0:05:32Listen, I am sorry and we all regret that there were people injured.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35As far as we know, there were two people in hospital,
0:05:36 > 0:05:38one with a heart attack, and we have unchecked reports
0:05:38 > 0:05:41about being injured but two people in hospital and that's regrettable
0:05:41 > 0:05:44but the police forces were sent there by a judge,
0:05:44 > 0:05:51a Catalan judge by the way, to enforce a court order.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54They used force and there were - in about 2,200,000 people -
0:05:54 > 0:05:56there were two people in hospital.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58That is regretful.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01I am sorry for that, I'm sorry for the people
0:06:01 > 0:06:08who got injured but...
0:06:08 > 0:06:11It would help if you were truthful about the real extent
0:06:12 > 0:06:12of the injuries.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15For example, the Hague Centre for Strategic Studies did a survey
0:06:15 > 0:06:19of what happened and they found that hundreds of voters had been injured
0:06:19 > 0:06:22on polling days and they concluded with these words, "the use of force
0:06:22 > 0:06:24displayed by the Spanish police has no place
0:06:24 > 0:06:28in an established democracy".
0:06:28 > 0:06:32The use of force was done under court orders in the face
0:06:32 > 0:06:33of resistance and violent and violent attacks
0:06:34 > 0:06:35against the police.
0:06:35 > 0:06:44They were 45 policemen injured.
0:06:44 > 0:06:46So in 2,200,000 there were two people in hospital,
0:06:46 > 0:06:51one with a heart attack.
0:06:51 > 0:06:54It is regretful.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57But I do not agree with what The Hague conference
0:06:57 > 0:06:57or organisation says.
0:06:57 > 0:07:00We have to back up police forces when they act
0:07:00 > 0:07:03following a court order.
0:07:03 > 0:07:04I am sorry.
0:07:04 > 0:07:08We have to do that in Spain, in the UK, in any democratic
0:07:08 > 0:07:12country.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15Another question concerning the atmosphere in the run-up to this
0:07:15 > 0:07:19December vote, it concerned the fate of the several members of the former
0:07:19 > 0:07:21regional administration who are languishing in Spanish jails
0:07:21 > 0:07:25right now, including, of course, Oriol Junqueras,
0:07:25 > 0:07:32the former vice president of the regional government.
0:07:32 > 0:07:34He has described the situation inside his prison, he says,
0:07:35 > 0:07:37"communication with the outside world is very limited,
0:07:37 > 0:07:41we can only talk for 50 minutes each week on the phone.
0:07:41 > 0:07:48I have not yet seen my children".
0:07:49 > 0:07:51You're a democrat, you live in Spain, how do you feel
0:07:52 > 0:07:54about locking up, again, I say it, civilian politicians
0:07:54 > 0:07:57who are pursuing their political agenda with an elected mandate
0:07:57 > 0:08:00from their voters and you lock them up in these conditions?
0:08:00 > 0:08:07How do you as a Democrat feel about that?
0:08:07 > 0:08:09I tell you how I feel about that.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11I have my own opinion.
0:08:11 > 0:08:22You say "you locked them up".
0:08:22 > 0:08:26No, it is a judge who has locked them up, as you say,
0:08:26 > 0:08:29they have put them in provisional prison for committing crimes,
0:08:29 > 0:08:31because they are accused of committing serious crimes.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34It is the judge in a democratic country like Spain or the UK
0:08:34 > 0:08:36who puts people in jail, especially provisionally.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39These people are accused of serious crimes and these people
0:08:39 > 0:08:42have the same rights, I suppose, as any person who is in jail.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46I do not think they can complain of having worse or better treatment
0:08:46 > 0:08:50than anybody else, in fact, I think they are in one of the most
0:08:50 > 0:08:52modern prisons in Spain, and they have many facilities
0:08:52 > 0:08:59so I do not agree with that...
0:08:59 > 0:09:02If you are a Democrat, Mr Toledo, doesn't it trouble you that
0:09:02 > 0:09:06with the vote on December 21 looming and Mr Junqueras and others wanting
0:09:06 > 0:09:08to put themselves forward to the public for election,
0:09:08 > 0:09:12it seems very troubling that they are still locked up.
0:09:12 > 0:09:16Why do they need to be locked up, why can't you at least give
0:09:16 > 0:09:18them their freedom because they are not convicted of anything?
0:09:18 > 0:09:21Give them the freedom so at least they can participate
0:09:21 > 0:09:27in the political process?
0:09:27 > 0:09:31You know, in Spain, in the UK, the one who puts people in prison
0:09:31 > 0:09:35is a judge and the one who decides to put them out of prison
0:09:35 > 0:09:36is a judge.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38I could have my opinion, it would be more comfortable
0:09:38 > 0:09:42politically if they were not in prison but this is not our call,
0:09:42 > 0:09:49this is not the government's call.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52In a democracy, in the UK it is the same thing,
0:09:52 > 0:09:55we cannot put these people in prison, it would be a judge.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58In fact, they have appealed the court order that put them
0:09:58 > 0:10:01in prison, it will be reviewed by the Supreme Court
0:10:01 > 0:10:04and the Supreme Court will decide probably in the next few days
0:10:04 > 0:10:06so we'll see but the government cannot do anything.
0:10:06 > 0:10:10These people were not put in prison because of what they think,
0:10:10 > 0:10:12because they are independentist, Mr Junqueras has been
0:10:12 > 0:10:14and independentist all his life, he has been accused
0:10:14 > 0:10:20of committing crimes.
0:10:20 > 0:10:24He can defend himself with all the guarantees and,
0:10:24 > 0:10:28if proven guilty, he will go or not to jail depending on what the judge
0:10:28 > 0:10:30says not depending on what the government says.
0:10:30 > 0:10:31That's very important.
0:10:31 > 0:10:35Let's get to the head of government, Mr Rajoy, I wonder what his message
0:10:35 > 0:10:38is to the people of Catalonia today, what is he offering Catalans
0:10:39 > 0:10:41in terms of a response to the political situation
0:10:41 > 0:10:44in the region which suggests Madrid is listening and Madrid is prepared
0:10:44 > 0:10:48to offer something to the people of the region to give them more
0:10:48 > 0:10:51power, a sense that Madrid is prepared to meet them at least
0:10:51 > 0:11:10halfway in their desire for more autonomy, more regional power?
0:11:10 > 0:11:13You must know that Catalonia is probably the region with other
0:11:13 > 0:11:15regions in Spain which has the most powers...
0:11:15 > 0:11:16No, no, that is not true...
0:11:16 > 0:11:20That is not true, Mr Toledo, I can't let you get away with that.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23Because we know that, for example, I can name you two regions,
0:11:23 > 0:11:26right now - the Basque region and Navarre -
0:11:26 > 0:11:29they both have much more significant tax raising and fiscal
0:11:29 > 0:11:37powers than Catalonia.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40You know that.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44No, no, Catalonia has all the powers which they do not have.
0:11:44 > 0:11:46Anyway, Catalonia has never had so much power
0:11:46 > 0:11:47and we can discuss that.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49We can discuss fiscal arrangements.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52In fact, President Rajoy has invited so many times the then-president
0:11:52 > 0:11:54Puigdemont to come and discuss in the commission, to discuss
0:11:54 > 0:11:57the fiscal territorial arrangement and they do not come.
0:11:57 > 0:11:59President Rajoy has offered to discuss 45 different complaints
0:11:59 > 0:12:02that effect real life for real people in Catalonia
0:12:02 > 0:12:06and they have refused.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09President Rajoy is offering first of all to restore the legality,
0:12:09 > 0:12:12to restore self-government, have election and, with a new Catalan
0:12:12 > 0:12:14government he will be open for discussing any thing
0:12:15 > 0:12:17and if they wanted change the Constitution, we have our legal
0:12:18 > 0:12:20framework, they have to propose that in Parliament,
0:12:20 > 0:12:30they have to conduct political dialogue because,
0:12:30 > 0:12:33Stephen Sackur, where do you conduct political dialogue in a democracy?
0:12:33 > 0:12:34It has to be in Parliament.
0:12:34 > 0:12:38President Rajoy has always been and always will be open to dialogue.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40We have opened a commission for discussing, if we need,
0:12:40 > 0:12:44and what we need, to reform our Constitution and that is the place
0:12:44 > 0:13:08to discuss it.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11Be clear about one thing, then, neither of us knows how this
0:13:11 > 0:13:14election is going to work out on December 21st,
0:13:14 > 0:13:17but if those parties clearly backing independence win a clear majority
0:13:17 > 0:13:20in the new regional government - and the latest opinion polls I have
0:13:20 > 0:13:24seen suggest the party in the lead, right now is Mr Junqueras's party,
0:13:24 > 0:13:30the gentleman I've just talked about with his ERC party,
0:13:30 > 0:13:32which is entirely committed to independence, it looks
0:13:32 > 0:13:36like the vote is going to be very close - but if the forces
0:13:36 > 0:13:39of independence win, will you accept that that represents
0:13:39 > 0:13:41a legitimate mandate for the Catalan regional government to push
0:13:41 > 0:13:44on with their quest for secession and independents -
0:13:44 > 0:13:56it will be a mandate?
0:13:56 > 0:14:00No, I don't accept that.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04In order to do that they will have to go present themselves in Madrid,
0:14:04 > 0:14:08at the Spanish parliament were all Spaniards are represented
0:14:08 > 0:14:11and the presentation of all Spaniards decide
0:14:11 > 0:14:14what their country is.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17The fundamental thing here, which is missing is,
0:14:17 > 0:14:22why, where is it written, not in the Spanish Constitution
0:14:23 > 0:14:27or in international public law, that a part of a country can decide
0:14:27 > 0:14:30what the whole country is?
0:14:30 > 0:14:34It is also personal for me.
0:14:34 > 0:14:38I want to decide what my country is.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41Why should anyone deprive me from voting in the end
0:14:41 > 0:14:43or from giving my opinion of my country?
0:14:43 > 0:14:44The definition of my country.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47You know, we have a Constitution that was approved by 91%
0:14:47 > 0:14:49of Catalans, which is very clear about this.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53It is very clear and it says that what the country is,
0:14:53 > 0:14:55what Spain is, has to be decided by all Spaniards.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58Interesting, and I am not sensing any movement or compromised
0:14:58 > 0:15:01in your answers, but it is interesting to note that in 2006
0:15:01 > 0:15:04the constitutional agreement that Spain signed up to did talk
0:15:04 > 0:15:09of a Catalan nation.
0:15:09 > 0:15:13You are now, it seems, not prepared to recognise any notion
0:15:13 > 0:15:20of self-determination for the people of Catalonia.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23I would just suggest to you that if this vote goes the way
0:15:23 > 0:15:27of the Independence parties, you are going to have a crisis
0:15:27 > 0:15:33in Spain and the European Union will probably begin to lose patience
0:15:33 > 0:15:35with the Madrid government that is not prepared to talk
0:15:35 > 0:15:38the language of compromise.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41Well, that is your opinion. It is not my opinion.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44These kinds of things can't happen in Europe,
0:15:44 > 0:15:47in the European Union any more.
0:15:47 > 0:15:49The European Union has a treaty.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51We have all signed to this treaty.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54It says that the European Union, meaning the European institutions
0:15:54 > 0:15:57and the European countries, member states, have to respect
0:15:57 > 0:16:03constitutional order of the member states.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06It would not be possible in France, it would not be possible in Germany.
0:16:06 > 0:16:10In Italy the Constitutional Court revoked a law in some of the Italian
0:16:10 > 0:16:17provinces calling for a referendum of self-determination.
0:16:17 > 0:16:20The only difference with the Catalan government and those regional
0:16:20 > 0:16:22government in Italy is that the regional government
0:16:22 > 0:16:24in Italy accepted the court ruling.
0:16:24 > 0:16:26The regional government in Catalonia didn't.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29It is a question, it is not a question of law and democracy.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31What is the law in a democratic world?
0:16:32 > 0:16:38Is the expression of democratic dialogue.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42You want to change the Constitution, come, propose it, if you have enough
0:16:42 > 0:16:46support we will change it.
0:16:46 > 0:16:48We will all be able to vote.
0:16:48 > 0:16:52Mr Toledo, let us move on to another issue which is very much
0:16:52 > 0:16:55in your portfolio, given that you are responsible for EU affairs.
0:16:55 > 0:16:57That is the state of the Brexit negotiations.
0:16:57 > 0:17:01The British Government is very keen to see the EU move on to the next
0:17:01 > 0:17:03phase of Brexit negotiations when the European Council
0:17:03 > 0:17:12meets in December.
0:17:12 > 0:17:16The British say they have done enough on the various first phase
0:17:16 > 0:17:18issues to move to the really big deal, which is talking
0:17:19 > 0:17:20about the future trade relationship.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22Do you, in Spain, see enough progress made
0:17:22 > 0:17:26for you and your government to back a move to the second phase
0:17:26 > 0:17:30of the Brexit negotiations?
0:17:30 > 0:17:35Well, negotiations are under way as we talk.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38And will be under way for the next week or ten days.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42I hear there is some progress.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46There was not enough progress last time we met at the European Council.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48There was some positive steps, I must say, taken
0:17:48 > 0:17:50by Prime Minister May that were acknowledged
0:17:50 > 0:17:52and we in Spain acknowledge them.
0:17:52 > 0:17:56We think that we need a deal and we think we are getting closer.
0:17:56 > 0:17:57But we need something more.
0:17:57 > 0:18:07And the British Government knows...
0:18:07 > 0:18:10Let me, let me try to make this quick.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13We don't have that much time. I will try to make it quick.
0:18:14 > 0:18:18Let us get to specifics. Start with the money.
0:18:18 > 0:18:23In brief, Theresa May and her cabinet appeared to have
0:18:23 > 0:18:26sanctioned now, offering the EU roughly 40 billion euros
0:18:26 > 0:18:29as a financial settlement as part of the recent deal,
0:18:29 > 0:18:31is that enough, yes or no? No.
0:18:31 > 0:18:35It is not that it is not enough. We are not looking for a figure.
0:18:36 > 0:18:38We are looking for a commitment to honour past commitments.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41We don't have to agree on a figure at this stage.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45We had to agree on principles to arrive at a figure when the final
0:18:45 > 0:18:48deal is made.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51All right. Next issue.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54It is very pressing - in recent days with a difficult
0:18:54 > 0:18:57relationship developing between the British Government
0:18:58 > 0:19:00and the Irish government.
0:19:00 > 0:19:04The Irish government says it will veto any move to the next phase
0:19:04 > 0:19:08of negotiations, unless the UK government is entirely clear
0:19:08 > 0:19:12about how it is going to avoid a hard border
0:19:12 > 0:19:15between Northern Ireland, which of course remains part
0:19:15 > 0:19:19of the United Kingdom, and the Republic of Ireland,
0:19:19 > 0:19:22which, of course, is a member state of the European Union.
0:19:22 > 0:19:26Do you feel that enough progress has been made on that issue?
0:19:26 > 0:19:30In that we back our Irish, our Republic of Ireland friends.
0:19:30 > 0:19:36I know that Prime Minister May and the UK want the same solution,
0:19:36 > 0:19:39that we have no border between the Republic of Ireland
0:19:39 > 0:19:41and Northern Ireland.
0:19:41 > 0:19:46We all want the Good Friday Agreement to survive Brexit
0:19:46 > 0:19:48and we want the common travel area.
0:19:48 > 0:19:49We have to find solutions.
0:19:49 > 0:19:55And our Irish friends tell us we need some more commitment.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58So we will trust them there. If I'm allowed.
0:19:58 > 0:20:02The British Government is also blaming the Irish and saying
0:20:02 > 0:20:08that the Irish are playing politics with the border issue.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11You seem to be suggesting to me that there is absolute unity among
0:20:11 > 0:20:15all of the member states of the European Union,
0:20:15 > 0:20:18excluding Britain, of course, unity and that this is not a case
0:20:18 > 0:20:21of Ireland playing politics, you all, right now, do not believe
0:20:21 > 0:20:23that the UK has offered enough on the border.
0:20:23 > 0:20:28Is that what you are saying?
0:20:28 > 0:20:30I was in Dublin last week.
0:20:30 > 0:20:32My Irish colleagues told me that they need some
0:20:32 > 0:20:33more concrete commitment.
0:20:33 > 0:20:42So I am willing to trust them there.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45They know what it's all about, I know what it's all about,
0:20:45 > 0:20:48but I prefer to trust them and Negotiator Barnier.
0:20:48 > 0:20:50We have given a mandate to Negotiator Barnier,
0:20:50 > 0:20:52which is quite clear.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55We trust our Irish, and Barnier, colleagues on that.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58We know that the UK is also interested in preserving
0:20:58 > 0:20:59the Good Friday agreement.
0:21:00 > 0:21:02I think we can get an agreement soon.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05A final point about Brexit, which is taking us back
0:21:05 > 0:21:08to Catalonia, in a way.
0:21:08 > 0:21:12The Scottish nationalist movement, and of course they are in government
0:21:12 > 0:21:18in Scotland in their government, they are keen to hold after Brexit
0:21:18 > 0:21:22a second Scottish independence referendum.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26If they win, it does look as though there is a strong possibility
0:21:26 > 0:21:29Scotland might, before too long, be an independent nation.
0:21:29 > 0:21:33If that were to be the case, and they applied for membership
0:21:33 > 0:21:43to the European Union after the UK had exited from the European Union,
0:21:43 > 0:21:50would Spain welcome Scotland into the European Union?
0:21:50 > 0:21:53Mr Sackur, there are too many ifs in your question.
0:21:54 > 0:21:56Allow me not to respond clearly to the question.
0:21:56 > 0:22:00If, if, if.
0:22:00 > 0:22:05This thing about referendums and self-determination referendums.
0:22:06 > 0:22:07My personal view, it is a never-endum.
0:22:07 > 0:22:13We will respect the UK legality.
0:22:13 > 0:22:14If there's a legal referendum,
0:22:15 > 0:22:17we will have nothing to say about it.
0:22:17 > 0:22:19And I hope the Scottish government has the same respect
0:22:19 > 0:22:22for our constitution that we have for their constitution.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25All right, well, I think I am reading between the lines there.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28I will end with one big thought about the European Union.
0:22:28 > 0:22:29It is your portfolio.
0:22:29 > 0:22:33I think it is fair to say that there are lots of big visions around.
0:22:33 > 0:22:38We had Jean-Claude Juncker outlining a very ambitious vision for a more
0:22:38 > 0:22:42integrated, united Europe, we had Emmanuel Macron talking
0:22:42 > 0:22:47about the necessity for Europe to develop much closer financial
0:22:47 > 0:22:52integration with a financial minister, a Finance Minister.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55Some beginnings of pan-European taxation, a Defence Force.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58But at the same time, there is a massive leadership problem.
0:22:58 > 0:23:03Angela Merkel is in trouble.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05Your Spanish government is weak, it has corruption scandals
0:23:05 > 0:23:07as well as the Catalonia problem.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09Mr Macron is not very popular.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12Where is the leadership that will make these dreams
0:23:12 > 0:23:16of a powerful, integrated EU into reality?
0:23:17 > 0:23:20I tell you something, Spain has always been a very pro-
0:23:21 > 0:23:26European country, except some, like Mr Puigdemont,
0:23:26 > 0:23:31who was insulting European Union yesterday.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34We will be among the most ambitious.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38We had gone through a very, very difficult crisis,
0:23:38 > 0:23:41economic crisis in Spain, we are now growing.
0:23:41 > 0:23:46We will get over this Catalan constitutional crisis.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49Legality has been restored.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52We will be the leading, the deepening of the European Union.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54I can assure you of that.
0:23:54 > 0:23:57We have to end there.
0:23:58 > 0:24:01But Jorge Toledo, in Madrid, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03Thank you very much to you.
0:24:03 > 0:24:07I hope next time, if there is a next time, it will be face-to-face.
0:24:07 > 0:24:11Thank you.