0:00:00 > 0:00:00that the UK -- VDU P said it would not support a deal that gave
0:00:00 > 0:00:11concessions to the Irish Republic. Now, it's time for HARDtalk
0:00:14 > 0:00:21Welcome to HARDtalk A significant shift is afoot in the world of
0:00:21 > 0:00:23international development, more of the decision-making power is being
0:00:23 > 0:00:30located in the global South, closer to the front line on the wall in
0:00:30 > 0:00:34poverty. There is less talk of aid and more of empowerment, self-help
0:00:34 > 0:00:39and local solutions. And at the forefront of this is my guest today,
0:00:39 > 0:00:43Winnie Byanyima, the Ugandan boss of Oxfam International, who is
0:00:43 > 0:00:50overseeing the NGO's move from the UK to can you. Is International
0:00:50 > 0:01:00development currently and fit for purpose? -- Kenya. -- and fit.
0:01:00 > 0:01:01-- unfit.
0:01:18 > 0:01:27Winnie Byanyima, Wellcome.Thank you, Stephen.We have talked to
0:01:27 > 0:01:31quite a number of top officials on this programme, the bosses of
0:01:31 > 0:01:36international NGO's, you are different from most because of your
0:01:36 > 0:01:40back story. Do you feel somewhat different from your peers in this
0:01:40 > 0:01:49world?A little bit. Not completely. I feel different because there are
0:01:49 > 0:01:56few heads, maybe I am the first, heads of a global organisation from
0:01:56 > 0:02:01Africa, from the south and who is a woman. Sometimes I feel a bit
0:02:01 > 0:02:05different but generally feel the same with my peers. We are all
0:02:05 > 0:02:11passionate commerce share the same values and we fight the same causes.
0:02:11 > 0:02:17I am interested you pick that Word fight, your life compare to most of
0:02:17 > 0:02:21your peers has been defined by this notion of struggle and fight.
0:02:21 > 0:02:25Sometimes in the most liberal sense because you did spend a couple of
0:02:25 > 0:02:32years in the Ugandan bush fighting against the dictatorship in Uganda.
0:02:32 > 0:02:40So, for you, this idea of struggle does seem to be very, very real.It
0:02:40 > 0:02:46is. I grew up in a crisis country and are a brutal dictatorship, I
0:02:46 > 0:02:53sought repression, I fled, I became a refugee, I joined a struggle
0:02:53 > 0:02:57against dictatorship, so yes, my life is shaped by a struggle, by a
0:02:57 > 0:03:06passion that I develop for human rights, 40 quality, for women's
0:03:06 > 0:03:11rights and this is my natural home. Working in social justice movements.
0:03:11 > 0:03:16-- fall equality.Do you think you are a radical almost to the point of
0:03:16 > 0:03:23being a revolutionary?Revolution is something that had evolved during my
0:03:23 > 0:03:2820s but I see myself as a practical, pragmatic champion of human rights
0:03:28 > 0:03:33and social justice and that is what Oxfam International is, it is a
0:03:33 > 0:03:37perfect home for me.It is interesting that you say that, too
0:03:37 > 0:03:43many people here in the UK we associate Oxfam with the word
0:03:43 > 0:03:46charity, because they run charity shops where you can donate clothing
0:03:46 > 0:03:52and other things and they can be sold on to give you funds for your
0:03:52 > 0:04:05eight and humanitarian work. -- your aid. But it isn't often associated
0:04:05 > 0:04:10with struggle, is it an easy marriage?It is, because behind that
0:04:10 > 0:04:19word charity is a very radical idea that humanity is one and injustices
0:04:19 > 0:04:30must be challenged and fought. We trace our roots to radicals who
0:04:30 > 0:04:35challenged Winston Churchill on the war that was going on and wanted to
0:04:35 > 0:04:40take food aid to people who are starving and they challenged and we
0:04:40 > 0:04:44have been challenging since. Challenge power. Interesting,
0:04:44 > 0:04:49because in recent times you have appeared to rail against the notion
0:04:49 > 0:04:54of charity given by the rich to the poor, you said that we don't think
0:04:54 > 0:04:58charity is the way to solve these problems, you are not going to lift
0:04:58 > 0:05:01everybody out of poverty through the kindness of wealthy people. Is
0:05:01 > 0:05:08charity outmoded to a certain extent?No, it is that outmoded.
0:05:08 > 0:05:14This era of solidarity, kindness and sharing is what drives what we do.
0:05:14 > 0:05:20But what I was saying is that Oxfam tackles the root causes of poverty
0:05:20 > 0:05:27and that lies in powerlessness. So we challenge political leaders,
0:05:27 > 0:05:31economical leaders, business leaders to do justice for the poor, but to
0:05:31 > 0:05:36give them handouts but to do justice.Your version of Justice
0:05:36 > 0:05:40sometimes trades into controversial political territorial. If I look at
0:05:40 > 0:05:46some of the campaigns that you and Oxfam have run, you have run
0:05:46 > 0:05:51campaigns for fair taxation, you have run campaigns on the minimum
0:05:51 > 0:05:55wage, you know, these in the British political context had certain
0:05:55 > 0:06:00political connotations which, it has to be said, has got Oxfam into
0:06:00 > 0:06:05trouble. For example, December 2014, the Charity commission decided that
0:06:05 > 0:06:13some of Oxfam's tweeting had carried a political bias.Yes, sometimes we
0:06:13 > 0:06:21are drug, told by authorities that we are crossing a line. But we are
0:06:21 > 0:06:30political, with a small p, we tackle where powerlessness starts and where
0:06:30 > 0:06:34power is abused. We tackle governments and we tackle companies.
0:06:34 > 0:06:40Among the examples that you gave, you should have mentioned that we
0:06:40 > 0:06:45faced off pharmaceutical companies to bring down the price of
0:06:45 > 0:06:48antiretrovirals to save the lives of millions of people dying. This needs
0:06:48 > 0:06:55a challenge and we challenge.I am tempted to ask you if that is the
0:06:55 > 0:06:59perception that you bring to your work, why not actually be a
0:06:59 > 0:07:04politician? Occurs in the end, sitting as you do at the end of
0:07:04 > 0:07:08Oxfam International, you can have a powerful lobbying voice but you
0:07:08 > 0:07:12cannot will the levers of power, whereas if you chose a political
0:07:12 > 0:07:17career and this knows, back home in Uganda, there are many who would
0:07:17 > 0:07:20think that you have a very strong chance of political success, if you
0:07:20 > 0:07:24did then you could pull the levers of power yourself.Let me tell you
0:07:24 > 0:07:34something. Political leaders can only be as good as the people of the
0:07:34 > 0:07:40citizens are active. It is so important that we raise the voice of
0:07:40 > 0:07:43citizens, that we support citizens to hold their leaders accountable
0:07:43 > 0:07:47and hold this is accountable for good practice. So what I am doing
0:07:47 > 0:07:54now, today is leading a global organisation that fuels, that power
0:07:54 > 0:07:57was movements on the grounds of citizens to push their governments
0:07:57 > 0:08:03to be just and to deliver to them. With focus on what you have said
0:08:03 > 0:08:08about your role, which is very much about political messages, about
0:08:08 > 0:08:11campaigning, about activism. But what you didn't say is that it is
0:08:11 > 0:08:16also about delivering very real and urgent humanitarian assistance on
0:08:16 > 0:08:19the ground. I wonder whether you sometimes worry that the money used
0:08:19 > 0:08:23and has Oxfam on the campaigning, the lobbying, the powerful political
0:08:23 > 0:08:30messages, that money is being taken, in essence, from the humanitarian
0:08:30 > 0:08:35funds that you have two help people in Yemen, Bangladesh, all sorts of
0:08:35 > 0:08:41different urgent pressing crises today, that is a hugely difficult
0:08:41 > 0:08:46moral decision to take, is it?Not really. It is not a difficult
0:08:46 > 0:08:51decision. As I said, take the case of conflict. Conflict happens and we
0:08:51 > 0:08:56rush there and we save lives because we want to save lives. What we know
0:08:56 > 0:09:02that the solution to a conflict is to find a peaceful solution to the
0:09:02 > 0:09:07issues that are driving the conflict, so we must tackle the root
0:09:07 > 0:09:14cause is as well. If you take the example of Yemen, it is the worst
0:09:14 > 0:09:17humanitarian disaster in the world today, 7 million people on the verge
0:09:17 > 0:09:29of starvation. Berwick is a cholera outbreak. We are there with water
0:09:29 > 0:09:37sanitation and food and everything that we can. -- there is. But we
0:09:37 > 0:09:40also must speak up, we must campaign and push those governance to fight
0:09:40 > 0:09:45for a political solution of peace in the Yemen. We challenge the British
0:09:45 > 0:09:53government that is on the one hand giving aid, the second-biggest
0:09:53 > 0:10:00donor, but which is also selling arms to Saudi Arabia which arms are
0:10:00 > 0:10:06being used to kill them. So we speak forcefully and challenging the
0:10:06 > 0:10:11British government on that. Stopped selling arms.There are many others
0:10:11 > 0:10:17delivering that message on arms sales to Saudi Arabia, Westminster
0:10:17 > 0:10:20Parliament and many other political lobbying groups, my question is that
0:10:20 > 0:10:24why does Oxfam need to do that? Given that you have the facility and
0:10:24 > 0:10:28the manpower and the know-how to actually use every pound that is
0:10:28 > 0:10:32given to you to help people on the ground, is it right that you spend
0:10:32 > 0:10:36some of that money on political campaigning that others would do in
0:10:36 > 0:10:43your place?Absolutely, firstly because we come with the credibility
0:10:43 > 0:10:48to speak on those issues. We are on the ground. Before I came here I was
0:10:48 > 0:10:54having a meeting with some of the people who are on the ground in
0:10:54 > 0:10:58Bangladesh, inside the country and I know the picture, I know what is
0:10:58 > 0:11:02going on. In many spaces Oxfam is invited there to speak because we
0:11:02 > 0:11:10bring the voice, and authentic voice from where the problems are. So if I
0:11:10 > 0:11:14can share with you, this year I went to a roundtable at the United
0:11:14 > 0:11:18Nations with the Secretary General, with prime ministers, I was coming
0:11:18 > 0:11:24right out of Nigeria where there is famine in that rich countries. And I
0:11:24 > 0:11:30could talk about the creeping famines across South Sudan, Nigeria,
0:11:30 > 0:11:35Somalia and Yemen because I have been to those countries.That is
0:11:35 > 0:11:40because Oxfam is one of the very biggest and most respected of the
0:11:40 > 0:11:44International aid, humanitarian organisations. I wonder if there is
0:11:44 > 0:11:50time for a rethink...What we spend on our campaigning is 10% of our
0:11:50 > 0:11:54total budget, what we spend on humanitarian crisis is almost half
0:11:54 > 0:12:02of our budget.You, in the end, are one of the big fish, one of the big
0:12:02 > 0:12:06multinationals, maybe it is time for a rethink, maybe it is time for you
0:12:06 > 0:12:12to accept, that your day, if not done, is perhaps not the future?
0:12:12 > 0:12:17Because it your own reporting on this, for example a report from
0:12:17 > 0:12:202015, turning the humanitarian system on its head, emphasised the
0:12:20 > 0:12:25need to get much more local. That local as was the best way of
0:12:25 > 0:12:27delivering real support to communities on the ground.
0:12:27 > 0:12:33Absolutely. In fact, we are committed. Oxfam has committed that
0:12:33 > 0:12:38by 2020 we will be channelling 30% of the money that we get for
0:12:38 > 0:12:44humanitarian crisis through local actors because they are the first
0:12:44 > 0:12:48responders, they know that context, they can deliver better. So will we
0:12:48 > 0:12:52are out there, training our local partners to take more and more
0:12:52 > 0:12:57responsibility for preparedness and a full response when it is needed.A
0:12:57 > 0:13:05powerful sentence from that report, simply put, it said, we are not
0:13:05 > 0:13:10saving as many lives as we could. Is that still true today?Of course we
0:13:10 > 0:13:18would like to save all lies. We always struggle at Oxfam and are
0:13:18 > 0:13:21striving for higher and higher impact. When you say that, that
0:13:21 > 0:13:26talks to our DNA. We are impatient for a world where there is no
0:13:26 > 0:13:29poverty or suffering.The implication was that your systems
0:13:29 > 0:13:35all your approach wasn't quite right?Of course, we are looking for
0:13:35 > 0:13:41improvements and in the last five years I have headed Oxfam, after we
0:13:41 > 0:13:44formed our humanitarian system to make it more effective and efficient
0:13:44 > 0:13:50at the truth is, the humanitarian crisis around the world of the speed
0:13:50 > 0:13:54at which and the frequency and intensity of disasters, the
0:13:54 > 0:13:57protracted miss of conflicts, we cannot meet the need. We really must
0:13:57 > 0:14:04find solutions to prevent, we must do more preventative work.Is one
0:14:04 > 0:14:11way that you can be more quicker on the ground and more flexible, moving
0:14:11 > 0:14:14the international headquarters to Nairobi to place it in the global
0:14:14 > 0:14:16South?
0:14:16 > 0:14:20Yes, that is part of the change that is making us more rooted
0:14:20 > 0:14:24in the work that we do. It just cannot be right
0:14:24 > 0:14:28that we save lives and we solve problems of poverty from 4000
0:14:28 > 0:14:37miles away, Stephen... Is there something neocolonialists
0:14:37 > 0:14:40about the attitude that you see in some of the Western-based
0:14:40 > 0:14:43international aid organisations? Well, I can say that there
0:14:43 > 0:14:47is a danger of becoming less and less relevant if organisations
0:14:47 > 0:14:53that were born in the north and became global continue to make
0:14:53 > 0:15:00the decisions to do their work from the north.
0:15:00 > 0:15:10We are moving our headquarters to the south so that we are rooted
0:15:10 > 0:15:13there, so that we speak with the legitimacy from where
0:15:13 > 0:15:16the struggles are. Have you been stung by the degree
0:15:16 > 0:15:19to which certain African leaders, and I am thinking of Paul Kagame,
0:15:19 > 0:15:21the president of Rwanda, but also, actually interestingly,
0:15:21 > 0:15:25your host now, the president of Kenya, Uhuru Kenyatta,
0:15:25 > 0:15:31they have expressed openly said -- their doubts that international
0:15:31 > 0:15:35aid is doing an effective job helping the poorer African nations.
0:15:35 > 0:15:40Just quote Uhuru Kenyatta, he tweeted this, he said,
0:15:40 > 0:15:43"Dependence on giving which only appears to be charitable must end.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46Foreign aid, which heard so often carries terms and conditions that
0:15:46 > 0:15:48preclude progress, is not an acceptable basis
0:15:48 > 0:15:57for a prosperity and freedom. It is time to give it up."
0:15:57 > 0:16:00There are two things there - one, the big picture.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03Developing financing, aid is only a small part of it.
0:16:03 > 0:16:08Today, the developing countries, the domestic investments,
0:16:08 > 0:16:14together with government revenues, is a 7.5 times more than the total
0:16:14 > 0:16:18sum of flows which include aid, foreign direct investment,
0:16:18 > 0:16:25remittances, loans, all that so domestic revenues are very
0:16:25 > 0:16:28important and they are growing and it is important though
0:16:28 > 0:16:30to understand that aid, even though it is one part,
0:16:30 > 0:16:34has a very important part to play. Take the 47 fragile countries,
0:16:34 > 0:16:4347 of them, fragile, poor countries, for those,
0:16:43 > 0:16:48aid is the largest aid flow externally. They need that aid
0:16:48 > 0:16:51but increasingly... But what about those who say that
0:16:51 > 0:16:54giving aid to the very poorest countries, often props up
0:16:54 > 0:16:56governments whose record on governance and striving
0:16:56 > 0:17:02for economic efficiency and delivering real economic
0:17:02 > 0:17:11benefits to their people is horrible and that aid sustains them.
0:17:11 > 0:17:14There is a point in what you say because aid should be used
0:17:14 > 0:17:17for purposes of strengthening the institutions of government
0:17:17 > 0:17:19and strengthening the capacity of citizens to hold government
0:17:19 > 0:17:23accountable. So the purpose of aid is important
0:17:23 > 0:17:27that it is channelled to the poorest who are not reached by markets,
0:17:27 > 0:17:30who are not reached by private capital, that it is used
0:17:30 > 0:17:34to strengthen tax collections so that countries get on their feet
0:17:34 > 0:17:37and raise enough resources, that it is used to support
0:17:37 > 0:17:40the strengthening of civil society voices to hold
0:17:40 > 0:17:50government accountable. We have to use aids aid for those
0:17:50 > 0:17:53purposes, for it to deliver the autonomy, the financial autonomy
0:17:53 > 0:17:55that governments want. There is one specific thing that
0:17:55 > 0:18:00I want to put to you and it has come out in recent days as a result,
0:18:00 > 0:18:02bizarrely, the scandal in the United States
0:18:02 > 0:18:03concerning Harvey Weinstein and allegations of very
0:18:03 > 0:18:08serious sexual abuse. It has since transpired that a lot
0:18:08 > 0:18:15of female workers in the aid and development business have,
0:18:15 > 0:18:21it seems, experienced abuse themselves from other members,
0:18:21 > 0:18:23male members of staff, over the years and,
0:18:23 > 0:18:26including staff at Oxfam. It seems you have had,
0:18:26 > 0:18:33in the last year, a very significant rise in the number of allegations
0:18:33 > 0:18:36made against your own male staff. I'm tempted to ask,
0:18:36 > 0:18:40with a degree of surprise, what on earth is going on that seems
0:18:40 > 0:18:43to make this sort of abuse systemic even in the humanitarian
0:18:43 > 0:18:46aid business? You know, that is a matter that's
0:18:46 > 0:18:49very close to my heart, Stephen.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53Throughout my career, I have been working to defend women's rights.
0:18:53 > 0:19:06It's true, Oxfam should be doing more to protect them
0:19:06 > 0:19:09-- women who work for Oxfam. Your former director in Nigeria,
0:19:09 > 0:19:12going back to the thousand and ten, made allegations of abuse
0:19:12 > 0:19:14against another senior member of Oxfam staff.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16She said those allegations were never addressed and,
0:19:16 > 0:19:20not long afterwards, she was fired. It does seem there is a problem,
0:19:20 > 0:19:22even in your own organisation. Well, as I said, we
0:19:22 > 0:19:25should be doing better. We should be doing better
0:19:25 > 0:19:30but let me be clear that, one, a norm has changed
0:19:30 > 0:19:33in the world - American women have stood up and have raised
0:19:33 > 0:19:36the question about safety for women in the workplace.
0:19:36 > 0:19:41We've been working at it for a long time.
0:19:41 > 0:19:45We're not where we should be but we have something in place that
0:19:45 > 0:19:48has been working and some of this reporting, Stephen,
0:19:48 > 0:19:52is a result of the transparency that we put in place,
0:19:52 > 0:19:57starting five years ago, when we boosted our system
0:19:57 > 0:20:06and started a system of reporting transparently the cases.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09I want to end by bringing you back to Uganda,
0:20:09 > 0:20:12which is where we begin, where we talked about the roots
0:20:12 > 0:20:15of your commitment to the struggle. For 11 years, you were a Ugandan
0:20:15 > 0:20:17parliamentarian working quite closely with President Museveni.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20He is now seeking constitutional change which would allow him to run
0:20:20 > 0:20:29for another presidential term, even though, according
0:20:29 > 0:20:33to the current constitution, he would be too oldin 2021 to run
0:20:33 > 0:20:36again, and you have chosen to speak out against any change
0:20:36 > 0:20:39in the Constitution. Why?
0:20:39 > 0:20:42Well, first of all, I must correct you that wasn't working closely
0:20:42 > 0:20:45with him as a parliamentarian. I was a critical parliamentarian...
0:20:45 > 0:20:48You were at the beginning. Because if I may say so,
0:20:48 > 0:20:50you've had a long personal relationship with him...
0:20:50 > 0:20:53Sure. ..you were close to him and indeed
0:20:53 > 0:20:56so was your husband many years. That is true.
0:20:56 > 0:20:58We were in the revolution against dictatorship together but,
0:20:58 > 0:21:05increasingly, as I became a Member of Parliament,
0:21:05 > 0:21:07I disagreed and eventually broke away.
0:21:07 > 0:21:12Why I am racing my voice now on this issue is that this issue of changing
0:21:12 > 0:21:15the Constitution in order to extend the possibility of a president
0:21:15 > 0:21:18who has been in power 35 years, to stay longer...
0:21:18 > 0:21:22And we should remind people he would be 77 at the next election.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25It is not a partisan issue. This is a citizen issue.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27This is where Oxon's voice I think is important,
0:21:27 > 0:21:33to energise the citizens to speak up in defence of the Constitution.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36We made this Constitution - I was one of the Constitution
0:21:36 > 0:21:38makers - it was the most consultative, participatory way
0:21:38 > 0:21:43and we put in these checks in the Constitution so that
0:21:43 > 0:21:48presidents do not use incumbency to entrench themselves in power.
0:21:48 > 0:21:53Now, he did remove one constitutional check and now
0:21:53 > 0:21:57he wants to remove the one in age limits so it is important that
0:21:57 > 0:22:00I speak so that Ugandans also rise and speak
0:22:00 > 0:22:03and defend their Constitution. But you speak as the head
0:22:03 > 0:22:07of Oxfam International but the truth is, you have a major vested interest
0:22:07 > 0:22:10in it because your husband happens to be the leading political
0:22:10 > 0:22:14opponent, who has long fought President Museveni and has fought
0:22:14 > 0:22:22to beat him in various presidential elections so, for you,
0:22:22 > 0:22:25this is deeply personal. Are you so you should be mixing
0:22:25 > 0:22:28the professional and personal in the way that you have chosen?
0:22:28 > 0:22:31Look, I am a citizen of my country. I cannot be credible
0:22:31 > 0:22:35in my own country when I do not speak on an issue that is
0:22:35 > 0:22:38so important for the future of our young people,
0:22:38 > 0:22:50for our economy. I have to make my statement and then
0:22:50 > 0:22:52leave it for Ugandans to go ahead and fight it.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55I do not express myself on the side of the opposition
0:22:55 > 0:22:58or the side of the government as I said.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01This is a strictly citizen issue and people across both
0:23:01 > 0:23:06sides are speaking... There are members would like you
0:23:06 > 0:23:10to go back and be the main opposition candidate in the 2021
0:23:10 > 0:23:15election. Are you considering doing that?
0:23:15 > 0:23:22Look, it would be an honour to be asked to lead my country but,
0:23:22 > 0:23:25right now, I am enjoying an even bigger honour to support the voices
0:23:25 > 0:23:28of citizens around the world, to stand up for economic justice.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32So 2021 is a little way away. Are you telling me that
0:23:32 > 0:23:35you are categorically ruling it out or is it a possibility?
0:23:35 > 0:23:37There are many people in your country that
0:23:37 > 0:23:42would like clear answer to this. As I said, it would be an honour
0:23:42 > 0:23:47to be asked to lead the country but right now, I'm happy to tell
0:23:47 > 0:23:53you that I have just signed my second contract at Oxfam,
0:23:53 > 0:23:57to serve my organisation for the next five years so my plan,
0:23:57 > 0:24:00I'm not looking at the Ugandan context, I'm looking
0:24:00 > 0:24:03at serving Oxfam right now. We will have to end there.
0:24:03 > 0:24:06Winnie Byanyima thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:06 > 0:24:16Thank you so much. Enjoyed it.