0:00:00 > 0:00:02to do so.
0:00:02 > 0:00:06Now on BBC News, it's HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:15Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:15 > 0:00:21One of the world's biggest countries has a leader who polarises opinions,
0:00:21 > 0:00:27Stokes nationalist sentiment, has a controversial past, and they
0:00:27 > 0:00:30predilection for Twitter, I am thinking of course of India's Prime
0:00:30 > 0:00:36Minister Narendra Modi. But are there any parallels to be drawn with
0:00:36 > 0:00:43America's current president? My current guess is a matter of the
0:00:43 > 0:00:46Parliamentary chamber, Swapan Dasgupta, does this conservative
0:00:46 > 0:00:53ally of India's Prime Minister see any dangers in Narendra Modi's
0:00:53 > 0:01:00populism?
0:01:19 > 0:01:23Swapan Dasgupta, welcome to HARDtalk. More than three years ago,
0:01:23 > 0:01:29when he came to power, Mr Modi was described widely around the world,
0:01:29 > 0:01:34and in India, I think, as a conservative, Hindu nationalists,
0:01:34 > 0:01:39and their populist politician, do you think he has lived up to those
0:01:39 > 0:01:43labels? I Mr Modi think the most important thing about when he came
0:01:43 > 0:01:47to power is that it was interpreted very differently by very different
0:01:47 > 0:01:51sections of the electorate. There were certainly some who saw him as a
0:01:51 > 0:01:54conservative, there were some who saw him as a free marketeer.Others
0:01:54 > 0:02:02saw him as a nationalist. Some saw him as a poor boy made good. And
0:02:02 > 0:02:08some people saw him as a member of the backward castes. So it really
0:02:08 > 0:02:11depends, Swapan Dasgupta conveyed multiple images to people. Which one
0:02:11 > 0:02:19is the real Mr Modi? I think I is all of them in some ways.A very
0:02:19 > 0:02:25taken in your writing, and you are an ally of Mr Modi, and the BJP has
0:02:25 > 0:02:28between the upper house of the Indian parliament, but you're also a
0:02:28 > 0:02:32writer. I am struck by some things you have written. You said for "For
0:02:32 > 0:02:37too long in the conservatism has been at the end of condescension and
0:02:37 > 0:02:40caricature, and the Mr Modi government has essentially negated
0:02:40 > 0:02:47the importance of entitlement". As you see Modi as an anti- elitist.I
0:02:47 > 0:02:53think in the United States you call it outside the beltway. In India we
0:02:53 > 0:02:58call it the mob. That is really a set of people, perhaps privileged,
0:02:58 > 0:03:07perhaps Indian speaking like me... You are part of this establishment.
0:03:07 > 0:03:15I would say I am one of the orphans. People who exactly saw themselves as
0:03:15 > 0:03:19entitled. And people whose aspirations centred on the Congress
0:03:19 > 0:03:27and the Gundy family, to a very large extent, Modi was an unknown
0:03:27 > 0:03:32entity. Modi was not a Delhi politician, he came from the
0:03:32 > 0:03:38provinces. He was provincial Chief Minister. He was ostracised and
0:03:38 > 0:03:43hounded for a loss of his views. He was treated as a complete outsider,
0:03:43 > 0:03:48outlander, in fact.The more you talk to Moray Hebe echoes and
0:03:48 > 0:03:56residences of the trump phenomena in America.Mr Trump came after Mr
0:03:56 > 0:03:59Modi.That not argue about the chronologies, in terms of the spirit
0:03:59 > 0:04:04of a man, let us remember Donald Trump's phrase, he was going to go
0:04:04 > 0:04:08to Washington and dreamy swamp. You are suggesting that for you that is
0:04:08 > 0:04:15what the last three years have been about.That is only one part of it.
0:04:15 > 0:04:21Not really a dispossession, but a relative marginalisation of some of
0:04:21 > 0:04:31those who had occupied preeminent positions. After 25 years, India got
0:04:31 > 0:04:34a government with a full majority. That meant a Prime Minister did not
0:04:34 > 0:04:39have to look over his shoulder when making decisions. And Mr Modi came
0:04:39 > 0:04:44with a track record of being a decisive, of being firm, of having a
0:04:44 > 0:04:49clear mind of what he wants to do. He is controversial. I was a year is
0:04:49 > 0:04:55polarising.We will get to be polarising when it comes to some of
0:04:55 > 0:04:59the sectarian and communal issues in India in just a moment will stop I
0:04:59 > 0:05:03want to begin by taking on board what you have just said about him
0:05:03 > 0:05:05coming to power attracting the outsiders in India. And suggesting
0:05:05 > 0:05:09to you that those who are most outside are the poorest in India.
0:05:09 > 0:05:14And when one looks at the delivery, in terms of poverty alleviation and
0:05:14 > 0:05:19eradication in India in the last three years, frankly, it seems to me
0:05:19 > 0:05:23that Mr Modi has been found wanting. He has achieved a lot in economic
0:05:23 > 0:05:28terms, but he hasn't fundamentally shifted that block of Indians, some
0:05:28 > 0:05:33250 million, who are living or nor below the poverty line.I think Mr
0:05:33 > 0:05:40Modi has done a tremendous amount to actually, most important, try to
0:05:40 > 0:05:45make India a modern economy. What is important is the impulses which were
0:05:45 > 0:05:49reflected during the election, that people wanted opportunities. They
0:05:49 > 0:05:56were exasperated with living a shoddy, plodding life and they
0:05:56 > 0:06:00wanted to get ahead. In the most important thing which Mr Modi has
0:06:00 > 0:06:05done any three years, and I was there be number one issue, is a
0:06:05 > 0:06:08frontal assault on corruption. One of those things which was really
0:06:08 > 0:06:15holding India back. The image of India, plus the sheer banality
0:06:15 > 0:06:25comedy --, inefficiencies in the system.I want to stick with the
0:06:25 > 0:06:31poor and was Modi is doing for them. I would say to the poor, the most
0:06:31 > 0:06:36important thing he has done for the poor is that previously government
0:06:36 > 0:06:45welfare payments were siphoned off at a very large way. Today, using
0:06:45 > 0:06:48technology, using a certain determination to get ahead, you have
0:06:48 > 0:06:52managed to have direct payments. You open to the banking system to the
0:06:52 > 0:06:57poor, you have opened quite a loss of...Look at the record, look at
0:06:57 > 0:07:03the record, when he was chief minister and today as Prime Minister
0:07:03 > 0:07:06of the nation, his record is of cutting benefits, cutting welfare,
0:07:06 > 0:07:13doing a loss for the rich in terms of favourable tax policy, doing a
0:07:13 > 0:07:17lot for corporate India, but actually doing very little for the
0:07:17 > 0:07:21poor, particularly in the rural areas. And I am so struck that a
0:07:21 > 0:07:27former BJP, his own party, a former BJP Finance Minister is currently on
0:07:27 > 0:07:32a protest with poor farmers in Maharashtra state, saying quote
0:07:32 > 0:07:38"Private investor dish Rinkin, agriculture is in deep distress, the
0:07:38 > 0:07:44construction industry is in the doldrums our economy is in crisis".
0:07:44 > 0:07:49If our economy was in that much of a crisis we would not have registered
0:07:49 > 0:07:53growth rates that we have had.I am not saying corporate India is in
0:07:53 > 0:07:56crisis. I'm not saying that the upper middle class are not doing
0:07:56 > 0:08:00very well.I am saying that if our economy was in that sort of dire
0:08:00 > 0:08:04condition, as you make it out to be sometimes, or he makes to be, you
0:08:04 > 0:08:10would not have had repeated electoral successes for the BJP, you
0:08:10 > 0:08:14would not have had an entire revolution which has resulted in
0:08:14 > 0:08:18women's empowerment to a significant extent, you would not have had
0:08:18 > 0:08:24electrification of villages, which has taken place in a tremendous sort
0:08:24 > 0:08:27of way, which is changed and altered the lives of the quality people's
0:08:27 > 0:08:34lives.Just like Mr Trump in the United States, those who are most
0:08:34 > 0:08:39keen on the economic reforms delivered by Mr Modi are the
0:08:39 > 0:08:44corporate and the rich. That is just a fact in India today. They are
0:08:44 > 0:08:48benefiting a day doing very well.I think some of the corporate are
0:08:48 > 0:08:51resentful of the fact that the cronyism that marked some of the
0:08:51 > 0:08:55earlier business practices have been done away with, that corporate
0:08:55 > 0:09:01lending has been streamlined, that people, that corporate to have not
0:09:01 > 0:09:06pay back money are being punished. I think it is also dead that the
0:09:06 > 0:09:08discretionary powers, which some corporate is believed was their
0:09:08 > 0:09:14route to success, has been done away. There is far greater
0:09:14 > 0:09:17rule-based system, which is good for some people. It is good for
0:09:17 > 0:09:20corporate is who don't have connections. It may not be
0:09:20 > 0:09:27necessarily good for the corporate is who have used political access.I
0:09:27 > 0:09:32am tempted to rely on the people who make a specialism out of studying
0:09:32 > 0:09:35corruption in developing economies, transparency International are one
0:09:35 > 0:09:40such group. Their most recent report, March this year, India still
0:09:40 > 0:09:45has the highest bribery rate amongst the 16 Asia-Pacific countries that
0:09:45 > 0:09:49they surveyed. And nearly seven in ten Indians who had access public
0:09:49 > 0:09:53services said that they had had to pay a bribe.That is this year. Yes.
0:09:53 > 0:09:58I think that is quite true. That there is bribery, it is still
0:09:58 > 0:10:02rampant. But what is important at two things. That at the top layers
0:10:02 > 0:10:07of government corruption has more or less completely ceased. The powers
0:10:07 > 0:10:10of discretion which are really at the heart of corruption, that has
0:10:10 > 0:10:16come down. Another two, tax compliance, which was really one of
0:10:16 > 0:10:20those dodgy areas of India, people just did not pay taxes, a very small
0:10:20 > 0:10:25number of people. Can you imagine that in two years we have had
0:10:25 > 0:10:32something like an additional 7.8 million people now paying taxes. It
0:10:32 > 0:10:35is not because there has been a sudden windfall and they have won
0:10:35 > 0:10:39the lottery AU summit like that. It is a greater sense of compliance. A
0:10:39 > 0:10:43lot of the resistance that has been coming in is because you are putting
0:10:43 > 0:10:47in more people to the tax...For a writer who has converted himself
0:10:47 > 0:10:50into a politician, you are doing a very good job of putting a positive
0:10:50 > 0:10:55spin on everything Modi Mr Bing. But there are other spins to be had and
0:10:55 > 0:11:02some come from inside his own party -- says. This is talking about the
0:11:02 > 0:11:04so-called de- monetisation policy, where overnight Mr Modi declared
0:11:04 > 0:11:08that the high day nomination banknotes would be taken out of
0:11:08 > 0:11:13circulation. -- high denomination. He said it was to get rid of all the
0:11:13 > 0:11:16black money that was fooling around under people's beds and elsewhere in
0:11:16 > 0:11:21India. But the effect has been to legitimise a loss of black money
0:11:21 > 0:11:24that has been moved into the banking system and is now regarded as
0:11:24 > 0:11:30perfectly legitimate. He describes it as "The well's largest
0:11:30 > 0:11:32money-laundering scheme"
0:11:32 > 0:11:35it as "The well's largest money-laundering scheme". Critics of
0:11:35 > 0:11:42Mr Modi have quoted... He has a real point. I interviewed him not so long
0:11:42 > 0:11:50ago. He says it is the biggest scam of 2016.What has happened is that
0:11:50 > 0:11:54you had 90% of the de- monetised money coming back into the banks,
0:11:54 > 0:11:59number one...Now regarded as legitimate.It is not legitimate any
0:11:59 > 0:12:05more. That money now has an address. Next step is for them to account for
0:12:05 > 0:12:09that money. It is the second step which has been very conveniently
0:12:09 > 0:12:13left out. Just because money is deposited into the banks doesn't
0:12:13 > 0:12:17make it legitimate. Had that been the case, we would not have had
0:12:17 > 0:12:21money-laundering operations. Done through normal banking operations. I
0:12:21 > 0:12:26think what is very important is that the critics of Mr Modi was struck by
0:12:26 > 0:12:31one thing, the sheer audacity of this will stop something which takes
0:12:31 > 0:12:36into account 86% of the cash which was in circulation in India was de-
0:12:36 > 0:12:44monetised. It affected every single Indian. Rich, poor, everyone was
0:12:44 > 0:12:49affected by this decision. Why was it endorsed? Everyone suffered
0:12:49 > 0:12:53personal inconvenience in some way or another, some more, some less.
0:12:53 > 0:12:58But there was a certain determination on the part of people
0:12:58 > 0:13:05that the has gone too far, perhaps you need it a dose of very drastic
0:13:05 > 0:13:08surgery. I think de- monetisation, it hasn't ended corruption...For
0:13:08 > 0:13:14sure it hasn't.I would say that. But it is a very major step in that
0:13:14 > 0:13:18direction. I will take that, along with other legislation that has come
0:13:18 > 0:13:23along, and I think the first what India has done is that the wheels of
0:13:23 > 0:13:29corruption, which was rolling, and now you have managed to roll back
0:13:29 > 0:13:33the tide of the first time. Interesting.That to my mind is very
0:13:33 > 0:13:39important.Interesting that you couch it in terms of the audacity
0:13:39 > 0:13:43and decisiveness of Mr Modi. Why hasn't he been equally decisive and
0:13:43 > 0:13:47firm when it comes to smacking down hard on what we see, from the
0:13:47 > 0:13:55outside, as the dangerous rise of communal sectarian hate and violence
0:13:55 > 0:14:03in the India of Narendra Modi?I think Mr Modi has been quite clear
0:14:03 > 0:14:07in his mind, his personal interventions, that he sees these as
0:14:07 > 0:14:10a complete destruction -- distraction from the main task to
0:14:10 > 0:14:17bilby economy.People are being killed is because of their beliefs,
0:14:17 > 0:14:22because, for example, a Muslim man happens to own a cow and some people
0:14:22 > 0:14:26down the street believe that he has slaughtered a cow, he is murdered
0:14:26 > 0:14:30for that.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34There have been hate crimes in India, and I would say that, that
0:14:34 > 0:14:41constitutes a hate crime.That is not what Mr Modi would ever said.He
0:14:41 > 0:14:46called for a ten year moratorium... Mr Modi has seemed to follow people
0:14:46 > 0:14:50who peddle hate and who celebrate when a Muslim young man is murdered
0:14:50 > 0:14:55because he is falsely accused of slaughtering a cow.We all follow
0:14:55 > 0:15:01lots of people on Twitter, just to get a diversity of opinion.It is
0:15:01 > 0:15:07irresponsible.I mean, he follows me.I suspect you do not declare a
0:15:07 > 0:15:11celebration when was the man is killed.No, certainly not. Look, in
0:15:11 > 0:15:16India we have all shades of opinion. Some of them are ugly and I think I
0:15:16 > 0:15:20would be the first to admit that there are certain people who believe
0:15:20 > 0:15:24that Mr Modi's victory also symbolised their liberation from
0:15:24 > 0:15:31what they see as the scourge of secularism. And avenge history.Now,
0:15:31 > 0:15:36hang on a minute.There are these people...Events in history, but you
0:15:36 > 0:15:40surely know more than anybody else that Mr Modi is seen by Muslims in
0:15:40 > 0:15:45India and many outside as a man who still has a cloud hanging over him
0:15:45 > 0:15:52because of what happened in Gujarat in 2002. You know that there are
0:15:52 > 0:15:56still serious allegations about his role as Chief Minister in riots
0:15:56 > 0:16:01which killed many, many hundreds of Muslims. Given that passed, surely
0:16:01 > 0:16:06your advice to him, and you do speak to him, is to be as tough as he can
0:16:06 > 0:16:10possibly be on what you call hate crimes. But that is a phrase that he
0:16:10 > 0:16:15does not use.No, he does not use it.Do you think you should?I think
0:16:15 > 0:16:20what Mr Modi has to do is to make sure that the political agenda moves
0:16:20 > 0:16:25decisively away from these sectarian issues. That the political agenda is
0:16:25 > 0:16:29focused principally on the question of development, and that identity
0:16:29 > 0:16:37politics of such a narrative your Mac -- narrow variety... How do you
0:16:37 > 0:16:42do it is a question.Forgive me it is for interrupting, it is rude. But
0:16:42 > 0:16:46I just want to air the figures. There is a phrase which has
0:16:46 > 0:16:50developed in India in the last two years of cow vigilantism.It is seen
0:16:50 > 0:16:55as a problem.I have looked at the figures, I've looked at the past
0:16:55 > 0:17:00seven years, 97% of the incidence of this cow vigilantism, which has
0:17:00 > 0:17:03resulted in violence, sometimes the deaths of people seem to have
0:17:03 > 0:17:10slaughtered these animals, 97% of the cases reported under Modi's
0:17:10 > 0:17:19government, and most of them in BJP areas. So the party has a problem,
0:17:19 > 0:17:23Mr Modi has a problem, and it doesn't seem to be being addressed.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26I think what is really important is that vigilantism is really
0:17:26 > 0:17:30unacceptable. It has been declared so, party functionaries have said
0:17:30 > 0:17:33so. Whether individuals take the laws into their own hands, there
0:17:33 > 0:17:38must be dealt with. However, I would also emphasise one thing. That beef
0:17:38 > 0:17:42is one of the most emotive issues in India, it has to be handled with kid
0:17:42 > 0:17:46gloves. There are a lot of sensitivities which are involved
0:17:46 > 0:17:52there, and I think you have to play that issue very delicately.Let's
0:17:52 > 0:17:55unpack that little bit. Are you saying that you defend the right of
0:17:55 > 0:17:58Indian State to categorically banned the slaughter of cattle, not just
0:17:58 > 0:18:02for him does, or not just to make it a voluntary, faith based
0:18:02 > 0:18:06requirement, but to say to every citizen of the state, you cannot
0:18:06 > 0:18:11kill and therefore it with?Such legislation exists.I know, are you
0:18:11 > 0:18:15saying...Most of that legislation was not passed by the BJP, it was
0:18:15 > 0:18:19passed by the previous government. That is part of the Constitution
0:18:19 > 0:18:23which also says it is part of the duty of the government to protect
0:18:23 > 0:18:27the cow. Now, you might find this antediluvian, you might find it
0:18:27 > 0:18:31contrary to certain customs, but in India, as I said...Well, nobody
0:18:31 > 0:18:35cares what I think, but in India... We visit very sensitive issue in
0:18:35 > 0:18:41India. And I think personal taste sometimes, just like Coalition,
0:18:41 > 0:18:51temperance, why are so many state against alcohol consumption we have
0:18:51 > 0:18:59actually enacted law against it. -- Coalition. But there are the sort of
0:18:59 > 0:19:01taboos, there are these social restrictions which are there in
0:19:01 > 0:19:06India, and they have to be handled with a great deal of sensitivity.
0:19:06 > 0:19:15With Mr Modi and his background, let me quote the words of Gandhi
0:19:15 > 0:19:18himself, from 1947. The Hindu religion, he said, prohibited the
0:19:18 > 0:19:23slaughter of cows for religion, not for the world. Any imposition from
0:19:23 > 0:19:27without meant compulsion, and such compulsion was repugnant to
0:19:27 > 0:19:34religion.Mr Gandhi certainly was one of the greatest advocates of
0:19:34 > 0:19:40anti- cow slaughter.At his point was, we must not...He wanted to
0:19:40 > 0:19:45make it voluntary. There are states which allow cow slaughter is to take
0:19:45 > 0:19:52place. I think also there has to be a greater degree of realisation and
0:19:52 > 0:19:56accommodation on the part of people to say, look, this is what I do,
0:19:56 > 0:20:02which is not necessarily what you do. And I am saying that this is a
0:20:02 > 0:20:07social issue. It goes far beyond politics. But, at the same time, I
0:20:07 > 0:20:12think it is very, very important to emphasise that these is a very
0:20:12 > 0:20:17sensitive issue.Well, you have made that point.Is a part of Indian
0:20:17 > 0:20:21culture.Let's leave beef to one side for the moment and end with
0:20:21 > 0:20:25this thought, about whether you are concerned that under Mr Modi there
0:20:25 > 0:20:30is something happening with Hindu extremism, I am now thinking of the
0:20:30 > 0:20:33recent murder of a journalist who spent a lot of time researching and
0:20:33 > 0:20:39talking about the dangers of Hindu extremism, she was brutally murdered
0:20:39 > 0:20:46in September 2017. Are you worried that there is something happening in
0:20:46 > 0:20:50India today which Mr Modi and his team are not capable or indeed
0:20:50 > 0:20:57willing to combat I knew Gauri very well, she was a colleague at various
0:20:57 > 0:21:01points.I don't think there is anything as yet to link her murder
0:21:01 > 0:21:04with that of Hindu extremists. I think it is one of those really
0:21:04 > 0:21:10criminal tragedies that happen, the attack on murder of Gauri Lankesh.
0:21:10 > 0:21:15You see no link?I said there could be. However, I think the important
0:21:15 > 0:21:19thing is to realise, to isolate these Hindu extremist as much as
0:21:19 > 0:21:23possible. Most of them, incidentally, operate outside the
0:21:23 > 0:21:30boundaries of the BJP. They find the BJP to moderate and organisation.
0:21:30 > 0:21:36They believe in a very extreme, radical, exclusivist view of
0:21:36 > 0:21:40society, which goes against the beliefs and the sensitivities of
0:21:40 > 0:21:45most other people.At why it is your party, the party you are loyal to,
0:21:45 > 0:21:48so keen to offer sops to these people? For example, in the
0:21:48 > 0:21:52education system, one can look at states like Maharashtra, where
0:21:52 > 0:21:56efforts are being made to completely change the text books at your school
0:21:56 > 0:22:03children are seeing and reading, to write out a whole swathes of Mughal,
0:22:03 > 0:22:07Muslim history. Why is that happening?History in India is a
0:22:07 > 0:22:10very contested issue. I think it is important to also realise that
0:22:10 > 0:22:13history has been written in one particular way. It was written
0:22:13 > 0:22:16earlier by the colonial masters. Subsequent Lee, at various times,
0:22:16 > 0:22:21there has been an influence of the left on history. And I think areas
0:22:21 > 0:22:29need...One Indian critic of what is happening says we may soon have the
0:22:29 > 0:22:32situation, absurd situation where students in Maharashtra will not be
0:22:32 > 0:22:37allowed to know who built the Taj Mahal.That is silly. I think that
0:22:37 > 0:22:41is silly, that is a caricature, that is not what is happening. They have
0:22:41 > 0:22:44been certain extreme cases of certain people saying the Taj Mahal
0:22:44 > 0:22:47shouldn't be... But I think there will be laughed out of court. What
0:22:47 > 0:22:52is important is to recognise that India had a certain contested
0:22:52 > 0:22:57history. Now, how we find a method of actually accommodating these
0:22:57 > 0:23:01various conflicts is really the challenge. It is an intellectual
0:23:01 > 0:23:04challenge, it is a challenge for historians. But to say that we
0:23:04 > 0:23:09should go by the earlier version of what constituted history I think is
0:23:09 > 0:23:14wrong.There is no question that Mr Modi is very popular. I mean, he has
0:23:14 > 0:23:17won regional state elections in the last few months by resounding
0:23:17 > 0:23:21margins. His opinion poll ratings are very high. Do you also, as a man
0:23:21 > 0:23:27who is a writer and an explorer of India's social affairs, do you also
0:23:27 > 0:23:36have worries about what Modiism is doing to India?If you think that
0:23:36 > 0:23:40Modi's success, his popularity, is due to a certain vision of India
0:23:40 > 0:23:44which is ably, which is monstrous, which is exclusivist, I think you
0:23:44 > 0:23:49are wrong. There have been certain very, very fundamental changes in
0:23:49 > 0:23:52India. There have been a lot of actual government which is seen to
0:23:52 > 0:23:59work at the grassroots. That is what really caps it. The rhetoric, his
0:23:59 > 0:24:03personal charm, his eloquence, et cetera, those are just the
0:24:03 > 0:24:07garnishing. The real substance comes from the fact that, after a long
0:24:07 > 0:24:11time, we have got a government which is perceived to be honest, which is
0:24:11 > 0:24:21committed, which delivers.We have to end their, but Swapan Dasgupta,
0:24:21 > 0:24:25thank you for being on HARDtalk. Thank you very much.