0:00:00 > 0:00:00Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.
0:00:01 > 0:00:09Stephen Sackur is talking to the chef Marcus Wareing.
0:00:09 > 0:00:10Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:14I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:14 > 0:00:19Not so long ago, British food was the laughing stock of the world
0:00:19 > 0:00:22- it bland, stodgy and flavourless.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25But how things have changed.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28Today, the nation seems obsessed with cooking and baking on TV
0:00:28 > 0:00:32and fine dining.
0:00:32 > 0:00:37My guess today is one of the new breed of top celebrity television
0:00:37 > 0:00:46chefs, Marcus Wareing. Yes, we are now obsessed with good food, but is
0:00:46 > 0:00:52that altogether healthy?
0:01:09 > 0:01:15Marcus Wareing, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:15 > 0:01:24There are an awful lot of ships in the world, but only a very few
0:01:24 > 0:01:28elite, top chefs -- shifts. What distinguishes the very best from the
0:01:28 > 0:01:33rest?I think first of all the mindset, it's a work ethic and I
0:01:33 > 0:01:39think there is a type of sacrifice that a top chef has and wants to
0:01:39 > 0:01:46sort of drive themselves individually and as an individual to
0:01:46 > 0:01:52excel head and shoulders above everybody else. A lot of advice that
0:01:52 > 0:01:55I've ever had through the years going through the ranks was... And
0:01:55 > 0:01:59it came from my father originally, was to stand out from the crowd and
0:01:59 > 0:02:03to do that you need to do something different.Most of the great chefs
0:02:03 > 0:02:06around the world started as apprentices to other great chefs and
0:02:06 > 0:02:11if we look at your CV, you worked with Albert Rood, you obviously
0:02:11 > 0:02:15famously worked a lot with Gordon Ramsay, both in their different ways
0:02:15 > 0:02:20great chefs. Did you acquire skills and knowledge directly from them?
0:02:20 > 0:02:27Without a doubt your travels, you are working in kitchens and that is
0:02:27 > 0:02:31the foundation as a chef. The most important thing about trying to be a
0:02:31 > 0:02:35good chef or someone who is going to be a little bit different is working
0:02:35 > 0:02:39with some of the best chefs. When you work through all the different
0:02:39 > 0:02:42kitchens, you are inspired, energised, but also gathering
0:02:42 > 0:02:46knowledge, education and discipline. They are leaders of examples and
0:02:46 > 0:02:50leaders of their industry and they have something to offer. They may
0:02:50 > 0:02:54not talk to you every day, they may not tell you an idea or recipe, but
0:02:54 > 0:02:58you have to get into their kitchens and feed off their energy, like a
0:02:58 > 0:03:03big that tree that you are sucking everything out of -- battery. This
0:03:03 > 0:03:07story while the train, you go and train more, you go and train in a
0:03:07 > 0:03:11little kitchen, put that information on a shelf and when you become a
0:03:11 > 0:03:14head chef you bring it all down and use all of that experience.I've
0:03:14 > 0:03:19got, as it happens, your menus from last night here at Marcus, your
0:03:19 > 0:03:24flagship two Michelin star restaurant. Therefore, looking at
0:03:24 > 0:03:28this, it all looks delicious, I notice a very big emphasis on
0:03:28 > 0:03:34British produce.Yes.You know, from starters of wood pigeon, Portland
0:03:34 > 0:03:41crab and glazed ox tongue with Dorset snails, true to your mains.
0:03:41 > 0:03:48Third week lamb, Cumbrian veal, grouse, all of this very British.
0:03:48 > 0:03:53This who am I question, what are your menus saying about who you are?
0:03:53 > 0:03:57At my restaurants, and the way in which industries change and Farthing
0:03:57 > 0:04:02and the way we receive our produce, -- farming and the way we receive
0:04:02 > 0:04:07our produce, I look at the UK as my local community food. Because I can
0:04:07 > 0:04:13put and order in this morning from Scotland and get it tomorrow. Things
0:04:13 > 0:04:18move quickly. So local, UK, and then I spread further afield into Europe
0:04:18 > 0:04:22for different types of produce that are better or farmed better or taste
0:04:22 > 0:04:25better and we are always searching for something really nice. But I
0:04:25 > 0:04:30don't like to go too far across the world to gather food produce.So
0:04:30 > 0:04:34this idea of food miles matters to you?I think so. Now in the world
0:04:34 > 0:04:38winning the big F or that we aren't purchasing to mark from all over the
0:04:38 > 0:04:46world. -- I don't need to put in certain things into this menu
0:04:46 > 0:04:50because it's not really a reflection on me as a person. I've never
0:04:50 > 0:04:53trained in lots of different cuisines, but I will never
0:04:53 > 0:04:57experiment with them on my menu. So the reflection of the menu and the
0:04:57 > 0:05:00ingredients you've talked about are about a local life from the
0:05:00 > 0:05:03north-west of England, using the produce from this country.The
0:05:03 > 0:05:10phrase a local lad from Southport, wasn't it, with their dad who was a
0:05:10 > 0:05:15market trader. It's a great story. Does it sit uneasily with you in
0:05:15 > 0:05:20anyway? That here we are, in a posh, expensive part of London, and all
0:05:20 > 0:05:24this fabulous food you are serving comes at a price. You're tasting
0:05:24 > 0:05:32menu is £120, roughly $140, your a la carte dish I imagine a main would
0:05:32 > 0:05:38be about £60, £70.Just a bit less than that.These are big numbers and
0:05:38 > 0:05:42out of reach for most people. For a local lad from south port, does that
0:05:42 > 0:05:48bother you?It doesn't, because I think it is not about Allman being
0:05:48 > 0:05:52equal, it's about a matter of choice and I think what we do offer is
0:05:52 > 0:05:57choice and there are tasty menus, a la carte menus, but there are also
0:05:57 > 0:06:03very good reasonable lunch menus. The wine, you can come to this
0:06:03 > 0:06:08restaurant and spend the same amount of money on a glass of wine than you
0:06:08 > 0:06:12would on a good bar or pub. It's all about choice. So with the thousands
0:06:12 > 0:06:16of awful that we have on our menu when you come here, there's
0:06:16 > 0:06:22something for everybody. So I don't look at it as a rich man's room,
0:06:22 > 0:06:26anybody who comes to my restaurant, you can have tapwater, a glass of
0:06:26 > 0:06:30house wine and the lunch menu for two people and you could be out of
0:06:30 > 0:06:34the door for less than £100 if you wish, but it's your choice to come
0:06:34 > 0:06:38and spend the value that you want to spend. But isn't it nice, for a
0:06:38 > 0:06:44Northern line to maybe come with your girlfriend or wife and come to
0:06:44 > 0:06:52London and do something different? -- lad. We just happen to be in the
0:06:52 > 0:06:56heart of London. I sort of and am proud to have worked my way from
0:06:56 > 0:07:00there. It didn't arrive on a tray, it was a lot of hard work.What
0:07:00 > 0:07:05about food snobbery? You have two Michelin stars. Not many chefs
0:07:05 > 0:07:10around the world do. But there is something about this whole sort of
0:07:10 > 0:07:15fetishisation of the Michelin star which sticks in some people's
0:07:15 > 0:07:19throats. Do you sometimes feel that it is the wrong way to really judge
0:07:19 > 0:07:33the quality of food in restaurants? I don't. I think Nisha -- Michelin
0:07:33 > 0:07:37are very important and relevant. I think their history judges how
0:07:37 > 0:07:41important they are. They are judging chefs as a guide and they give you a
0:07:41 > 0:07:44point of recognition and give you an accolade. It's not something you ask
0:07:44 > 0:07:49for, it is given to you. It's almost a gift of your standards.But it
0:07:49 > 0:07:53puts you under enormous pressure. Some chefs have started saying to
0:07:53 > 0:07:58Michelin, even if they had in the past one or two stars, they are now
0:07:58 > 0:08:02saying, I don't want to be part of your network. I don't want to be
0:08:02 > 0:08:06judged by you any more. The pressure is too constant, too immense. The
0:08:06 > 0:08:11things you require of us in terms of the level of service, the
0:08:11 > 0:08:14presentation, are just actually making as a restaurant with a want
0:08:14 > 0:08:21to be.I disagree. I completely disagree, because I don't think it
0:08:21 > 0:08:25is then putting the pressure on the chef, it's the general public and
0:08:25 > 0:08:28the expectation of the general public. In the last ten years,
0:08:28 > 0:08:33social media has become a big part. Everybody in your restaurant now can
0:08:33 > 0:08:38post their of the dinner, of the experience they are eating. So I
0:08:38 > 0:08:42think it's more than just Michelin. Every person at your table is now a
0:08:42 > 0:08:49reviewer. Exactly. Does that scare you?No. It's a challenge, it sets
0:08:49 > 0:08:52standards, it even tells me what my restaurant is doing when I'm not
0:08:52 > 0:08:56here. You have to embrace technology, you have to embrace it.
0:08:56 > 0:09:01Even if I don't like it and do it as well as the next chef, I do have a
0:09:01 > 0:09:06team of people around me who show me how to move forward. But if I look
0:09:06 > 0:09:09down on that process, and I looked down and Seyi Michelin delivers
0:09:09 > 0:09:13pressure, then I would be a nervous wreck. You must always turn pressure
0:09:13 > 0:09:18into positive thinking and positive energy and enjoy your job. Go back
0:09:18 > 0:09:21to your roots. It is about those ingredients.Stop worrying about
0:09:21 > 0:09:29what everyone is saying. One of Britain's best known restaurant
0:09:29 > 0:09:33reviewers rebelled against the Michelin spirit, the sort of smart,
0:09:33 > 0:09:37formal dining that it seems to encourage. He said the guide seems
0:09:37 > 0:09:42to be wholly out of touch with the way people now actually it will stop
0:09:42 > 0:09:47it is still rewarding fat, Conservative, fussy rooms. Maybe he
0:09:47 > 0:09:53meant rooms like this, that use expensive ingredients with
0:09:53 > 0:10:03ingratiating pomp to serve glossy plutocrats. Is that Marcus?No,
0:10:03 > 0:10:08absolutely not and I don't think fine dining is that. I think there
0:10:08 > 0:10:13are lots of food writers and critics may be that don't see the fund or
0:10:13 > 0:10:18the luxury of the enjoyment in iron dining, because it's a homage to the
0:10:18 > 0:10:25chef and I think the world has changed and I think chefs are
0:10:25 > 0:10:28cooking in high-street restaurants that have 20 seats and slaving away
0:10:28 > 0:10:32in the back of a kitchen, an open kitchen. That is as enjoyable in the
0:10:32 > 0:10:35day's world as eating in a fine dining restaurant. It's all about
0:10:35 > 0:10:40what somebody wants for the occasion and if I'm going to set up a
0:10:40 > 0:10:44restaurant in this hotel, a 5-star hotel, it is known all over the
0:10:44 > 0:10:48world, there's a level of luxury have to provide and I want to
0:10:48 > 0:10:52provide.It strikes me that as used -- as you have become more
0:10:52 > 0:10:55successful, like many top chefs you've developed the brand and
0:10:55 > 0:10:59become a TV personality, the British MaterChef show has made you
0:10:59 > 0:11:02enormously popular in this country. You've also opened up arrest one
0:11:02 > 0:11:07central London, are now you've got a stable of three. It all means that
0:11:07 > 0:11:13you are not every single lunchtime and dinner actually in the kitchen,
0:11:13 > 0:11:17here at your number one restaurant, doing it yourself. It strikes me
0:11:17 > 0:11:22that when people come here, and as we've discussed they do pay a large
0:11:22 > 0:11:28amount of money for food from the restaurant, they expect Marcus
0:11:28 > 0:11:31Wareing to be slaving away in the kitchen.I think like has changed
0:11:31 > 0:11:35and up until four years ago when I revamped this restaurant I was in
0:11:35 > 0:11:40this kitchen every single day. I never looked for television, it came
0:11:40 > 0:11:46and found me. I never worked up and wanted to write and I never needed
0:11:46 > 0:11:50to open two of the restaurant on top of this. I was very satisfied with
0:11:50 > 0:11:55what I had. Then why did you do at? As I found I had some very talented
0:11:55 > 0:12:00people underneath me that I had to find opportunities for. And what I
0:12:00 > 0:12:04see is having those other restaurant, I've created
0:12:04 > 0:12:06opportunities for very talented people to become bosses within their
0:12:06 > 0:12:11own right.But what if you stretch yourself too thin? No. What if the
0:12:11 > 0:12:15standards at this restaurant to be honest are not quite as good when
0:12:15 > 0:12:20you are not here.I come back. I sit by the television and books and I do
0:12:20 > 0:12:25the job that I'm paid to do, which is Cook. The rest is a luxury item
0:12:25 > 0:12:29that is added my life.Interestingly talk about the team. There's been a
0:12:29 > 0:12:38lot of discussion recently about workplace sort of temperature in top
0:12:38 > 0:12:41kitchens and there is a lot of discussion about, and there's no
0:12:41 > 0:12:45other word for it, bullying and abuse that happens in kitchens and
0:12:45 > 0:12:55is often driven by the character of the number one chef, which in this
0:12:55 > 0:12:59case would be you. Have you bullied your staff in the past?I think
0:12:59 > 0:13:03bullying is a word that stressed up in many ways. I was born in the 70s
0:13:03 > 0:13:07and bullying was something that was done in the playground. It was a
0:13:07 > 0:13:11fight, a push, verbal. I don't think that happens in kitchens. I've never
0:13:11 > 0:13:18experienced it myself. I've raised my voice, swear, shout and drive
0:13:18 > 0:13:24people very, very hard through a hard service. Yes. I've had it done
0:13:24 > 0:13:30to me and I've done it on my staff in the past.You have been serious
0:13:30 > 0:13:35in -- incidences in kitchens. One in France, where a station chef
0:13:35 > 0:13:40deliberately and repeatedly scalded his kitchen assistant, there were
0:13:40 > 0:13:43others that came into light after that with sous chefs and assistance
0:13:43 > 0:13:49recounting tales, it sounds absurd but it's not, including a slap in
0:13:49 > 0:13:53the face with a wet fish, being stabbed in the calves with a kitchen
0:13:53 > 0:13:58knife, all sorts of different incidents, the burning incident, one
0:13:58 > 0:14:03executed assistant told reporter in France, quote, these torturers must
0:14:03 > 0:14:08be told that they are destroying lives. What the heck is going on in
0:14:08 > 0:14:11some of these kitchens?I think these are very few incidences that
0:14:11 > 0:14:13are overshadowing a fabulous industry that is bigger than a
0:14:13 > 0:14:17handful of incidents or many, many more. There are millions of people
0:14:17 > 0:14:21working in our industry and thousands and thousands of kitchens
0:14:21 > 0:14:24just running through London alone. I think the kitchens are pressure
0:14:24 > 0:14:29cookers. What has changed, and this is something we much focus on, is
0:14:29 > 0:14:33kitchens have become very much open places and the chef is part of the
0:14:33 > 0:14:37front of service as well as the back. Chefs are now delivering food.
0:14:37 > 0:14:42You actually come out here in even on?Yes, we can come out and even my
0:14:42 > 0:14:45chefs can come out and speak to customers. What has changed is we
0:14:45 > 0:14:50have now neutralised the area of the kitchen. The pressure cook of the
0:14:50 > 0:14:54kitchen was driven by hard-core career on top of a hot stove and in
0:14:54 > 0:14:58the oven. It was all cooked last minute. Pseudoscience of food has
0:14:58 > 0:15:02allowed us to change the way we cook, we are taking some training
0:15:02 > 0:15:07out of our young chefs to make the job easier. -- so the science.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10Because there's so much choice and so few people want to necessarily
0:15:10 > 0:15:13work in our industry. Maybe that's because you don't pay enough as
0:15:13 > 0:15:21well. That's wrong. We pay our staff above minimum wage.
0:15:21 > 0:15:27Minimum wages but the low bar. Minimum wage is a point of, if you
0:15:27 > 0:15:32work in 8- hour day you find it tough to survive in some of my chefs
0:15:32 > 0:15:40do much longer days and they can have about £30,000 which is just
0:15:40 > 0:15:47below a trainee chef.The average wage in the UK is £27,000 and you
0:15:47 > 0:15:50are saying, if they work ridiculously long hours, they might
0:15:50 > 0:15:55just get to that sort of threshold. You own one of the most luxurious
0:15:55 > 0:16:00restaurants and all of London.But we are delivering a standard, this
0:16:00 > 0:16:05is a school of education as well as a job. And we must identify the
0:16:05 > 0:16:10difference. You don't enter fine dining just a job. You have to want
0:16:10 > 0:16:14to be here. The key thing is choice. Everybody who wakes up in this part
0:16:14 > 0:16:18of the Western world can have a choice in life. You can get out of
0:16:18 > 0:16:23bed and look for a job, you can work as many hours as you like and you
0:16:23 > 0:16:27can pretty much never, ever be out of work that don't work in fine
0:16:27 > 0:16:31dining at the Top End if you want an easy life because it doesn't exist.
0:16:31 > 0:16:39British people spend £3 billion a year on ready meals. That's six
0:16:39 > 0:16:45times more than in Spain. Whatever we do when we switch on the TV and
0:16:45 > 0:16:49watch you cooking up fine food, we go to the shop and buy a ready meal.
0:16:49 > 0:16:56We buy ready meals per one reason. Loud they are sitting on the shelf,
0:16:56 > 0:17:00available, there are more of them and people are working hard with
0:17:00 > 0:17:04less time and maybe don't want to cook. Schools finish later, the
0:17:04 > 0:17:10school run is different. Everybody's lifestyle is changing. Social media.
0:17:10 > 0:17:15Go to supermarkets, there is your problem of obesity and convenience.
0:17:15 > 0:17:20It's interesting you talk about the obesity problem and you save you
0:17:20 > 0:17:23believe you are part of a culture which is beginning to respect and
0:17:23 > 0:17:28understand food much better but you actually opposed your fellow top
0:17:28 > 0:17:34chef Jamie Oliver when he campaigned so long and hard for a sugar tax to
0:17:34 > 0:17:39be put on the example the sugary drinks, the pop that so many kids
0:17:39 > 0:17:47still consume. You seem to think that was a very bad idea. Why?I
0:17:47 > 0:17:52don't think it was a bad idea. My concern was, what are we going to do
0:17:52 > 0:18:00with that money? My concern is, what happens with that tax. The thing
0:18:00 > 0:18:06that Jamie Oliver has done is open people up to how we have cooked at
0:18:06 > 0:18:11home. He's the one that put all the petitions together, to Downing
0:18:11 > 0:18:15Street...Campaign to the better squalid -- better quality school
0:18:15 > 0:18:21lunches.You can't just stop at Downing Street with tax.It isn't so
0:18:21 > 0:18:25much what we do with attacks, it is to send a price signal to people
0:18:25 > 0:18:32that they shouldn't be buying all of these very sweet and fizzy drinks.
0:18:32 > 0:18:39The price goes up a little bit... They will still buy them. Alcohol
0:18:39 > 0:18:45will go up in a pub...You seem to have a view that government and
0:18:45 > 0:18:50authorities have no role to play. You said, it is not the
0:18:50 > 0:18:53responsibility of government but parents. We are all human beings who
0:18:53 > 0:18:58can read and write. Let's not blame the government. There are only two
0:18:58 > 0:19:03people to blame for the obesity crisis, mum and dad.Doesn't it
0:19:03 > 0:19:06start at home? Why should the government be responsible for what
0:19:06 > 0:19:11people purchase in the shop? Why should we hold the government
0:19:11 > 0:19:16responsible? They are not our teachers or guardians. They are a
0:19:16 > 0:19:20completely different role and a hard role at that. I think they got more
0:19:20 > 0:19:24important things to worry about with the economy and with Brexit and what
0:19:24 > 0:19:28they are going to do with our taxes to worry about what we are consuming
0:19:28 > 0:19:40at home.It breaks it worrying you as a restauranteur? -- is Brexit?
0:19:40 > 0:19:47I've voted to remain. I've learned more about rakes it. I am excited
0:19:47 > 0:19:51about the choice of leaving. I was shocked the morning I woke up and
0:19:51 > 0:19:56heard the result. After 24 hours of thinking about it, we just got to
0:19:56 > 0:20:00get on with this. The country has made a decision. What is the
0:20:00 > 0:20:06positive we can drive from leaving Europe? That is that we have to
0:20:06 > 0:20:11potentially build our own future? Why I voted to remain was purely
0:20:11 > 0:20:15from the employment point of view. There are restaurateurs saying they
0:20:15 > 0:20:20are losing staff, there are people saying the double whammy of losing
0:20:20 > 0:20:25key staff who are heading for home or not applying for jobs that have
0:20:25 > 0:20:30become vacant from Europe, the pool of talented European staff who are
0:20:30 > 0:20:35available to British restaurants is diminishing. But also, the pound is
0:20:35 > 0:20:41much weaker and it's affecting you as you import some of your foodstuff
0:20:41 > 0:20:44is with a double whammy in some restaurateurs are saying they will
0:20:44 > 0:20:48have to close.From the point of view of we purchase, the customers
0:20:48 > 0:20:53will get a hit on that. You have to pay your bills and wages but it's
0:20:53 > 0:20:57interesting in not having more of the European community coming into
0:20:57 > 0:21:02work and that is that we, the Brits, have got to get out of bed and maybe
0:21:02 > 0:21:06work a bit harder and it will make us better employers. We need to
0:21:06 > 0:21:09change our approach a little bit more because what quality we have,
0:21:09 > 0:21:14we are going to have to take really good care of it. Secondly, we will
0:21:14 > 0:21:18have put better apprenticeship schemes in and start talking to the
0:21:18 > 0:21:22youth about exciting industries. When I was at school in college,
0:21:22 > 0:21:27three things stood out. Woodworker, metalwork, cookery. Also selling and
0:21:27 > 0:21:33all sorts of different things. You don't see a lot of this. We need to
0:21:33 > 0:21:40really get back to really good industries and saying it's not all
0:21:40 > 0:21:45about going to university.That's fine if it comes to pass but in the
0:21:45 > 0:21:50short run, for example, how many of your kitchen staff, the key -- the
0:21:50 > 0:21:54team here at Marcus restaurant up other parts of the European Union?
0:21:54 > 0:22:01About one third. More at the lower end. What I find is that they are
0:22:01 > 0:22:06here for better opportunity. You probably get a better wage over here
0:22:06 > 0:22:14even though they might say that they don't. It is also the opportunity.
0:22:14 > 0:22:19Many of these folks may well over the next year or two may have to
0:22:19 > 0:22:23reconsider their position.We, the employers, must make some big
0:22:23 > 0:22:28changes. I think on a negative note, a European family coming to work
0:22:28 > 0:22:34with us, we need to work closely with our schools. And create a
0:22:34 > 0:22:39workforce from our own pool of talent. We need to be growing our
0:22:39 > 0:22:44own talent now and put more emphasis on us and not relying on our
0:22:44 > 0:22:51European neighbours to work for us. And briefly, in terms of the produce
0:22:51 > 0:22:56as well. Because of the weaker pound and the more expensive produce
0:22:56 > 0:23:01brought in from abroad, you need to source more and more of everything
0:23:01 > 0:23:05you provide to customers from the UK.And that's going to make us
0:23:05 > 0:23:09better farmers, we need to look at agriculture and change lots of
0:23:09 > 0:23:13different things going forward. It's going to take a long time. This will
0:23:13 > 0:23:18be going on way beyond my time. I do think there is a great chance for us
0:23:18 > 0:23:24to put the great back into Great Britain again because this is our
0:23:24 > 0:23:28time to live again and not a line that fabulous European flour which
0:23:28 > 0:23:32has been taking care of our industry to so many years because you can't
0:23:32 > 0:23:36deny that our European neighbours, they do bring a sense of class to
0:23:36 > 0:23:41our catering industry that maybe we, the Brits, don't have. We've got to
0:23:41 > 0:23:46find it. We have to, we have no choice. We now start to create and
0:23:46 > 0:23:53make our own noise in the world. Who would ever say that we would grow
0:23:53 > 0:23:57and make wine in this country? We are making more English wine ever.
0:23:57 > 0:24:02That will continue and that is a celebration.Marcus Wareing, that is
0:24:02 > 0:24:10a great place to end. Thank you very much had been on HARDtalk -- thank
0:24:10 > 0:24:11you very much for