0:00:00 > 0:00:03Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Zeinab Badawi.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15Is the Sudanese government coming in from the cold and moving
0:00:15 > 0:00:17towards becoming a fully integrated member of
0:00:17 > 0:00:21the international community? The US lifted economic sanctions
0:00:21 > 0:00:24on Sudan in October, ending two decades of its
0:00:24 > 0:00:28financial isolation. Washington says Sudan has made
0:00:28 > 0:00:32progress on human rights, democratic reforms and ending ethnic
0:00:32 > 0:00:38tensions in the country. But critics argue it has not
0:00:38 > 0:00:40done enough, there's still no peace in Darfur and
0:00:40 > 0:00:43other conflict areas and human rights violations
0:00:43 > 0:00:49continue.
0:00:49 > 0:00:55My guest is Omar al-Bashir's, Sudan's Foreign Minister.
0:00:55 > 0:01:00Has the government really made a fresh start?
0:01:07 > 0:01:12THEME MUSIC
0:01:22 > 0:01:28Foreign Minister Ibrahim Ghandour, welcome to HARDtalk.Thank you very
0:01:28 > 0:01:34much.It is a pleasure to be here. How far do you see the lifting of US
0:01:34 > 0:01:39sanctions as a fresh start for Sudan?It is an inclusion into the
0:01:39 > 0:01:42international economy and finance systems will not put quite sometime
0:01:42 > 0:01:49Sudan has been bad from dealing with banks, transferring money, investors
0:01:49 > 0:01:57were leaving Sudan. And so now Sudan is back and we believe this is a
0:01:57 > 0:02:03good start with a country with a developing economy. At that time the
0:02:03 > 0:02:10economy shot up to a great growth. The US government still wants you to
0:02:10 > 0:02:16do more. Heather knew it, the State Department spokesperson said the
0:02:16 > 0:02:20move recognise Sudan's sustained positive action but more progress is
0:02:20 > 0:02:29needed.There is always more to be asked by anybody but they were
0:02:29 > 0:02:33referring to the human rights and religious freedoms and we have been
0:02:33 > 0:02:39discussing this at length and we are abiding without constitution and all
0:02:39 > 0:02:43international conventions and agreements and regional conventions
0:02:43 > 0:02:47and agreements we have signed on human rights and agreements and we
0:02:47 > 0:02:52are ready to listen to friends.You mentioned human rights and that is
0:02:52 > 0:02:57one very, very big issue. The British Ambassador in Sudan says he
0:02:57 > 0:03:05is very worried about human rights about, Darfur and the continuing
0:03:05 > 0:03:11violence in different areas. The UX that you have to do a lot more?We
0:03:11 > 0:03:16are just coming out of war in the south and we came out from a war in
0:03:16 > 0:03:26Darfur, Darfur is peaceful now. We how peace and negotiating with rebel
0:03:26 > 0:03:33groups. In an area still in turmoil, we are surrounded by the Central
0:03:33 > 0:03:40African Republic 's, and you will find it Boko Haram, Isis everywhere
0:03:40 > 0:03:46and, despite of that, people are trying to manage but you still must
0:03:46 > 0:03:50be worried if you are in that environment and this is what
0:03:50 > 0:03:54everybody feels that anything is possible at any time.But it is what
0:03:54 > 0:03:59is going on in your country that is concerning people. You mentioned
0:03:59 > 0:04:05Darfur, the inner project lobby group says there is continuing abuse
0:04:05 > 0:04:11of civilians in conflict areas. They say we have known this government
0:04:11 > 0:04:21and they will never change.In fact, United Nations African hybrid force,
0:04:21 > 0:04:2322,000 soldiers, observers from different countries in the world,
0:04:23 > 0:04:29the report said that Darfur is now peaceful and that is why it the
0:04:29 > 0:04:35Council took a decision...It has been reduced by a third.It is a
0:04:35 > 0:04:44full cause of departure but it is phased and until December, almost
0:04:44 > 0:04:4811,000 are supposed to leave and then the rest will leave in the
0:04:48 > 0:04:51coming year so it is a fully fledged departure and ex- head strategy in
0:04:51 > 0:04:56accordance with the agreement signed between the government and the
0:04:56 > 0:05:01African Union.The Americans say they want to move more movement on
0:05:01 > 0:05:07that, you yourself have said that. Even as late as June last year,
0:05:07 > 0:05:15100,000 civilians were displaced in Darfur. It is volatile and you need
0:05:15 > 0:05:21to do more and violence flares up very easily.I cannot say it is
0:05:21 > 0:05:24volatile but it is something that needs to be observed and the
0:05:24 > 0:05:27government is keen to see that happen. This is what happened last
0:05:27 > 0:05:33June, this is the last rebel group that is still trying to say we are
0:05:33 > 0:05:40here. The leader refused to sit down and talk and refused peace. He
0:05:40 > 0:05:45dreams of having his government led by himself.But thereat clashes
0:05:45 > 0:05:51between the rebels and pro-government militia. They need to
0:05:51 > 0:05:56be reined in. The government could do something on that. Integrate them
0:05:56 > 0:06:05into security forces.You can do a lot. With all due all respect, it is
0:06:05 > 0:06:08part of the army. It has brains and military numbers and
0:06:08 > 0:06:15identifications. -- ranks. They are part and parcel of the Sudanese
0:06:15 > 0:06:20Armed Forces and their leaders are part and parcel is of leaders in
0:06:20 > 0:06:26Sudan.Clashes happening between them and the rebels?No, it is a
0:06:26 > 0:06:31trial of the government to collect alms from different parts of Sudan.
0:06:31 > 0:06:35We have neighbouring countries with civil wars everywhere and smuggling
0:06:35 > 0:06:42arms is easy and it is part of the agreement to collect alms throughout
0:06:42 > 0:06:47the country and the government now did that fully in Darfur and this is
0:06:47 > 0:06:54why even crimes are almost cut off by 90%.When it comes to Darfur what
0:06:54 > 0:06:59is that the Americans are saying? The Americans must always leave the
0:06:59 > 0:07:07door open for a pact. You cannot say everything is perfect and you come
0:07:07 > 0:07:11again and make it reversed. This is why it policy and the policy is
0:07:11 > 0:07:21well-known. This is why the door is open for an amendment and if critics
0:07:21 > 0:07:25are faithful and trustworthy.You mentioned the Americans have said in
0:07:25 > 0:07:29this discussion about lifting the sanctions and what more Sudan has to
0:07:29 > 0:07:32do, the question of religious freedom and John O'Sullivan, the
0:07:32 > 0:07:37deputy direct to the Secretary of State, paid a visit to Sudan and
0:07:37 > 0:07:47expressed concern about religious persecution...In fact, there was a
0:07:47 > 0:07:53list of countries supporting terrorism. John Sullivan was
0:07:53 > 0:07:58referring to the annual report of the State Department of religious
0:07:58 > 0:08:04freedom are across the world. He found that every country in the
0:08:04 > 0:08:08world is being criticised long way or another, including the US, for
0:08:08 > 0:08:13religious freedoms and Sudan is dealing with that. We have a special
0:08:13 > 0:08:17committee on dealing with religious freedoms across the country. Sudan
0:08:17 > 0:08:21is one of the countries that has received an excellent religious
0:08:21 > 0:08:27coexistence between the different religions.John Sullivan pointed to
0:08:27 > 0:08:31what he described as the destruction of churches and the arrests of
0:08:31 > 0:08:38priests.We told him that they are illegal, it is a land that belongs
0:08:38 > 0:08:44to other people and why three churches were destroyed, fall Bosque
0:08:44 > 0:08:52's were destroyed at the same time. -- mosque. This land belonged to
0:08:52 > 0:08:57some people and the churches were built illegally stop really?Like
0:08:57 > 0:09:01would these Sudanese church of Christ sake Christians do not have a
0:09:01 > 0:09:05right here any more.You can say whatever you say but many priests
0:09:05 > 0:09:11are saying otherwise.What about a recent case of more than 20 south
0:09:11 > 0:09:17Sydney is a Christian women arrested at a gathering in Khartoum by the
0:09:17 > 0:09:20public order police because they were wearing trousers and skirt and
0:09:20 > 0:09:26were therefore an affront to public decency.I remember very well John
0:09:26 > 0:09:31Sullivan was talking about wearing trousers and when we left our office
0:09:31 > 0:09:35we left a journalist wearing trousers and she was talking to me
0:09:35 > 0:09:41and I told you this is an example. These women were arrested. They
0:09:41 > 0:09:49write cases, accorded nature of the note to oppression of women in
0:09:49 > 0:09:52initiative said women have been sentenced to flogging because of the
0:09:52 > 0:10:02affront to public decency.I read that press release and I dealt with
0:10:02 > 0:10:06the number but I cannot deny there may be sometimes problems in the
0:10:06 > 0:10:12indie since the cold by the police at this is one of the issues being
0:10:12 > 0:10:18addressed in Parliament right now. So Christian women can wear their
0:10:18 > 0:10:23trousers?It has nothing to do with religion. Many Muslim women wearing
0:10:23 > 0:10:30trousers and it is not illegal behaviour.Another civic freedom is
0:10:30 > 0:10:34freedom of the press, of course, and the National intelligence and
0:10:34 > 0:10:38security services and apparently seized writ runs off for Sudanese
0:10:38 > 0:10:45newspapers, it has been described as a press massacre.We are having a
0:10:45 > 0:10:53wider discussion over the press. The dissipation of journalists across
0:10:53 > 0:10:57the country and we are trying to have a new version of our journalist
0:10:57 > 0:11:03and newspapers. That will not have punishment of whatever kind and
0:11:03 > 0:11:11leave everything and The Journal is like in other cities.Why were these
0:11:11 > 0:11:17newspapers that sees?This is in accordance with the law. It is part
0:11:17 > 0:11:24of the powers of the National intelligence. This is why, following
0:11:24 > 0:11:30many were asking and this is one of the decisions and a recommendation
0:11:30 > 0:11:35endorsed by the government that we need to revisit 120 laws and among
0:11:35 > 0:11:44them is the press law.The law as it stands is inadequate? Right now it
0:11:44 > 0:11:48is under discussion.So press freedoms are guaranteed? I am sure,
0:11:48 > 0:11:56in accordance with the Constitution. This is one of the elephants in the
0:11:56 > 0:12:04room, corruption. You know that when it comes to doing business in Sudan
0:12:04 > 0:12:08all the economic indicators showed that businesses just run scared
0:12:08 > 0:12:12because it was a lack of transparency, Paul regulatory
0:12:12 > 0:12:19framework, huge reputational risks by doing business in Sudan. By
0:12:19 > 0:12:23saying we are open for business, you have to do a lot more.There is no
0:12:23 > 0:12:28country in the world that can deny there is no corruption of some kind
0:12:28 > 0:12:33but I will use the example of Saddam getting investors from abroad. Until
0:12:33 > 0:12:392009, Sudan was number two in getting foreign investments and
0:12:39 > 0:12:42number three in the whole of Africa in getting foreign investments and
0:12:42 > 0:12:51many companies are there. Various corruption but it is not of the
0:12:51 > 0:12:56magnitude that people are broadcasting everywhere. It is
0:12:56 > 0:13:00part... Will tell you that right now the government is digressing
0:13:00 > 0:13:05corruption and a portfolio poll corruption is being instituted and
0:13:05 > 0:13:12it is part of the recommendations. An economic consultant and former
0:13:12 > 0:13:15Minister of State in the Ministry of Finance said the government of Sudan
0:13:15 > 0:13:22is to blame when it comes to the economic ills that have happen.
0:13:22 > 0:13:28Foreign investors will not come to Sudan and local investors will not
0:13:28 > 0:13:33prosper if there is not a local playing field and clear policies to
0:13:33 > 0:13:41reduce high levels of poverty.These are requisite for success
0:13:41 > 0:13:50everywhere. But investment is helpful in alleviating poverty
0:13:50 > 0:13:56everywhere.Last year there were demonstrations by students at bash
0:13:56 > 0:14:04you are a former head of university- protesting against the removal of
0:14:04 > 0:14:08fuel subsidies and so on and actually they were talking about
0:14:08 > 0:14:12civil freedoms and there were mass arrests as a result of those
0:14:12 > 0:14:14protests?
0:14:19 > 0:14:22We are still not at the level of having peaceful demonstrations
0:14:22 > 0:14:28across the country. Some demonstrate against the government and are
0:14:28 > 0:14:33arrested.They have a right to arrest.It is right by law and
0:14:33 > 0:14:38constitution. But sometimes people go and disturb public stability,
0:14:38 > 0:14:47they burn facilities, public or private, and they are arrested. We
0:14:47 > 0:14:51are for peaceful demonstrations, we are for, in fact, whatever people
0:14:51 > 0:14:56can express themselves in the way they like.So only those who brought
0:14:56 > 0:15:01about how they can carried out violence were arrested, that is not
0:15:01 > 0:15:19the report we got.Many a man in the street.They have a right. What many
0:15:19 > 0:15:23are saying, especially now that sanctions have been lifted, is that,
0:15:23 > 0:15:27look, we want to make sure that the lifting of economic sanctions is
0:15:27 > 0:15:31going to benefit all of the people of Sudan, that we are not going to
0:15:31 > 0:15:38see vast profits creamed off by the government and its supporters.That
0:15:38 > 0:15:41won't happen.Can you guarantee full transparency?Definitely.
0:15:41 > 0:15:52Definitely. We are one of the few countries in the world that has an
0:15:52 > 0:16:01Auditor-General that does not have a relation to the government. That is
0:16:01 > 0:16:06in every newspaper. He does not take his report to the president or to
0:16:06 > 0:16:11the government were to the minister, it is from him to the Parliament to
0:16:11 > 0:16:17the television, the radio, the press.You know, sedan has got a lot
0:16:17 > 0:16:25of mineral wealth. -- Sudan. Sudan is the biggest producer of gold, 19
0:16:25 > 0:16:35tons last year produced, despite losing 90% of its oil production in
0:16:35 > 0:16:39the south, got independence in 2011, it still produces 88 barrels per
0:16:39 > 0:16:46day. You have agricultural land. A lot of riches in the country. And I
0:16:46 > 0:16:51have to say to you, people really want to know that the riches, the
0:16:51 > 0:16:55natural resources of the country, will go to the benefit of the
0:16:55 > 0:17:02population as a whole where there is widespread poverty.Definitely. You
0:17:02 > 0:17:09can see them when you visit. You can compare the road, the facilities,
0:17:09 > 0:17:15the transformation in education, the number of universities, the number
0:17:15 > 0:17:18of schools, the number of hospitals and health to bed, that, you can see
0:17:18 > 0:17:30it. -- hospital beds. At the time when we were there, people were used
0:17:30 > 0:17:35to a new way of living, then oil went away and people had a shock. If
0:17:35 > 0:17:47not, the perversity of the Sudanese economy, that shock what have killed
0:17:47 > 0:17:50the country. But in spite of that, Sudan overcame the shock and the
0:17:50 > 0:17:53economy went on the right path.A third of children suffer
0:17:53 > 0:18:02malnutrition in Sudan. Your country has 37 million. If it has riches,
0:18:02 > 0:18:05why have you not done something about these poverty rates? You have
0:18:05 > 0:18:12had 29 years in power as the ruling national Congress party. You are a
0:18:12 > 0:18:16senior member and have been a member since the mid- 90s and so on.McAdoo
0:18:16 > 0:18:27has been through a civil war for a long time. -- Sudan. Then be entered
0:18:27 > 0:18:32into the Darfour conflict. Keeping peace in a country with civil wars
0:18:32 > 0:18:38and conflicts, you need a lot of spending. Sudan has been under
0:18:38 > 0:18:43sanctions for 20 years. That is another problem. In spite of that,
0:18:43 > 0:18:52the economy is moving, and development is going on. Trucks are
0:18:52 > 0:18:59available, wheat is being imported, and...But it is all very expensive.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03That problem needs to be addressed to put you have given a guarantee
0:19:03 > 0:19:07that the issue of corruption at high levels is not something the
0:19:07 > 0:19:14government will tolerate.I can hold you to that?Yes.The message you
0:19:14 > 0:19:21are giving, Foreign Minister, is Sudan is turning a corner, using the
0:19:21 > 0:19:27lifting of US sanctions to be readmitted fully into the
0:19:27 > 0:19:35international community. I have to ask, why didn't President Bashid, on
0:19:35 > 0:19:39a visit in November to Moscow, you are with him, he held talks with
0:19:39 > 0:19:45President Vladimir Putin, and what he said was he described US
0:19:45 > 0:19:51aggressive acts and asks for Russia's protection against these
0:19:51 > 0:19:55acts, saying we believe the problems we have faced have been caused by US
0:19:55 > 0:20:00interference.He was referring to areas like Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan,
0:20:00 > 0:20:07and others. No one can deny the role of the US in those countries. By
0:20:07 > 0:20:10protection from the US, the president was referring to
0:20:10 > 0:20:20particulate incidence. -- but. -- particular incidents. They tried to
0:20:20 > 0:20:26pass through the UN Security Council a resolution preventing Sudan from
0:20:26 > 0:20:33exporting gold. At that time they called it "bloody gold." Russia and
0:20:33 > 0:20:38China and Egypt stood against it and said it was not possible to go
0:20:38 > 0:20:45through and get the resolution. He was thanking President Putin for the
0:20:45 > 0:20:52support.Just that specific act? There was more to the conversation,
0:20:52 > 0:21:02saying there may be a military base, Russia could build one on the Red
0:21:02 > 0:21:08Sea coast in Sudan. Many said it was a snub to Washington and cosying up
0:21:08 > 0:21:13to Russia at a good time.We are looking forward for excellent
0:21:13 > 0:21:26relations with Russia. Why do we want to have bad relations with the
0:21:26 > 0:21:36US? We have had good relations with the US to get the sanctions lifted.
0:21:36 > 0:21:40This is a new chapter.You have still not the fact that Sudan is on
0:21:40 > 0:21:50the list, the US list, of states that sponsor terrorism. Many have
0:21:50 > 0:21:51said America would not remove Saddam
0:21:55 > 0:22:09-- Sudan unless they stopped this. The Director of the CIA last year
0:22:09 > 0:22:12declared publicly in international media that CIA last year declared is
0:22:12 > 0:22:17one of the most countries supporting the US in counterterrorism and we do
0:22:17 > 0:22:23not support terrorism.When will you be removed from the list?We have a
0:22:23 > 0:22:28plan that will continue all year because it requires the decision of
0:22:28 > 0:22:31the president, the decision of Congress, and then back to the
0:22:31 > 0:22:37president. It is a process. That is why we are discussing our relation
0:22:37 > 0:22:42with the US. At that time it was authorised. State secretary John
0:22:42 > 0:22:47Kerry...The previous administration.Yes. They said the
0:22:47 > 0:22:59time is not enough.So it will happen in a year or so?Yes.And the
0:22:59 > 0:23:03president, Bashid, he has arrest warrants from the International
0:23:03 > 0:23:06Criminal Court related to allegations of human rights abuses
0:23:06 > 0:23:13to do with Darfour. He has been in power since 1989. Is it time to call
0:23:13 > 0:23:19it a day?This is a decision of the people. The people of the West have
0:23:19 > 0:23:23asked us to follow them in democracy and everything. The people want him.
0:23:23 > 0:23:30Sudan, as you know, had two popular revolutions in 64 and 65. Then there
0:23:30 > 0:23:37was the Arab Spring...You will stand again in 2020?It depends on
0:23:37 > 0:23:43the president and the people.He said he will not stand.I am not
0:23:43 > 0:23:49sure what will happen. We are 2.5 years away. Some people want him to
0:23:49 > 0:23:54stand...What would you like?It is difficult to say a big but he has
0:23:54 > 0:24:00been leading Sudan excellently. He saved Sudan from many different
0:24:00 > 0:24:07countries that have targeted it is a proxy of the US.Foreign Minister,
0:24:07 > 0:24:12thank you very much indeed.No problem. Thank you.Thank you.