0:00:00 > 0:00:01independence.
0:00:01 > 0:00:11Now on BBC News, Hardtalk.
0:00:12 > 0:00:19Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. The fierce argument about
0:00:19 > 0:00:23the roots of Islamist jihadist of islands can sometimes be a matter of
0:00:23 > 0:00:27life and death. -- jihadist violence. I guessed today knows that
0:00:27 > 0:00:34all too well. Zineb El Rhazoui is a French Moroccan journalist who was
0:00:34 > 0:00:37working for the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo when 12 people were
0:00:37 > 0:00:44murdered in the magazine's Paris office in 2015. Zineb happened to be
0:00:44 > 0:00:47on holiday. Now she lives under police protection. She has since
0:00:47 > 0:00:52written a book on what she calls Islamic fascism. To what extent does
0:00:52 > 0:01:21she feel she is fighting a war? Zineb El Rhazoui, welcome to
0:01:21 > 0:01:27HARDtalk.Thank you.There are words which seem to me to define your
0:01:27 > 0:01:34life. They are words like fight, struggle, resistance. How long do
0:01:34 > 0:01:40you feel that these words have been at the centre of your life?You
0:01:40 > 0:01:45know, as a Muslim born woman, I realised very early in my life that
0:01:45 > 0:01:51I had to struggle against injustice and inequality, because I grew up in
0:01:51 > 0:01:54Morocco, and in Morocco, when you start to understand things, you
0:01:54 > 0:02:00realise very fast that you don't have the same rights as men. Even
0:02:00 > 0:02:07men don't have many rights in a country ruled, at the time, by a
0:02:07 > 0:02:15totalitarian king, and also by religious law. So as a woman, I only
0:02:15 > 0:02:21had to choices. Either accepts and disappear as a human being, and feel
0:02:21 > 0:02:31destroyed. -- accept. Feel that I am no longer living. Or struggle and
0:02:31 > 0:02:37refuse to be half a citizen.But that is not necessarily a choice
0:02:37 > 0:02:44that a lot of girls, young women, females, feel to be their reality in
0:02:44 > 0:02:48a country like Morocco today. I mean, a lot of women probably
0:02:48 > 0:02:52wouldn't frame their lives as a choice between disappearing and
0:02:52 > 0:02:58struggle and resistance. So why were you different from so many of your
0:02:58 > 0:03:03peers? Back home in Morocco?Maybe these women did not have the tools,
0:03:03 > 0:03:08maybe they did not have the courage. I don't know why I was different.
0:03:08 > 0:03:13For me, it is a question of dignity. I have never considered myself as
0:03:13 > 0:03:19inferior to men. I just wanted to be able to say what I think, to have a
0:03:19 > 0:03:23normal life, to enjoy rights and freedoms. That is what it is. And
0:03:23 > 0:03:29for that simple thing, you need, unfortunately, to struggle and to
0:03:29 > 0:03:36make war.Make war? You really feel that?Yeah, of course.In a way, it
0:03:36 > 0:03:41is easy to define your life I'd is transformational moment that came on
0:03:41 > 0:03:47January seven, 2015, Wendy magazine you worked for was attacked by two
0:03:47 > 0:03:54jihadist Sue murdered a dozen people. -- when two. Maybe it is
0:03:54 > 0:03:57wrong to call that transformational. Maybe you felt you were at war
0:03:57 > 0:04:03before that happened.Of course. Actually, I call that... I had the
0:04:03 > 0:04:08first fatwa against me in 2009 in Morocco, because a group of
0:04:08 > 0:04:13activists, secular activists in Morocco, they decided to organise a
0:04:13 > 0:04:20public technique during Ramadan. Because in the civil code, the penal
0:04:20 > 0:04:26code, it is punishable by jail if you publicly eat during Ramadan. We
0:04:26 > 0:04:30consider these laws archaic, they violate human rights and freedoms.
0:04:30 > 0:04:36So we just decided to protest with sandwiches. And I deserved day fatwa
0:04:36 > 0:04:44for that. -- deserved a fatwa.There is something symbolic about going
0:04:44 > 0:04:48out with sandwiches to eat in a public space in Morocco. Surely you
0:04:48 > 0:04:54knew that would offend so many of your fellow citizens in, I assume it
0:04:54 > 0:05:00was in Casablanca? Why did you feel it was OK, and indeed necessary, to
0:05:00 > 0:05:05offend so many other people?If they are offended, actually it is their
0:05:05 > 0:05:10problem. Are they offended when they see somebody when they are fasting,
0:05:10 > 0:05:16on television, eating a sandwich? Why are they offended if I eat? They
0:05:16 > 0:05:21are fasting and they are going to paradise, I'm not, let me at my
0:05:21 > 0:05:26sandwich and drink my copy map. I want to be free to eat, I want to be
0:05:26 > 0:05:29free to exist as a Moroccan citizen who does not necessarily respect and
0:05:29 > 0:05:37follow this Islamic rule. So if they are offended, that is their problem.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41I believe that sometimes provocation is necessary to impose a debate, to
0:05:41 > 0:05:49make people, either they want to have a debate about things that are
0:05:49 > 0:05:52to bill in society.We will get DD debate and the ideology and the
0:05:52 > 0:05:58taboos later. -- get to the debate. I want to stick with the impact on
0:05:58 > 0:06:02your life and your emotional life in particular. You have a young woman
0:06:02 > 0:06:05who is used to being in trouble. You are familiar with the notion of
0:06:05 > 0:06:09fatwa. You have been arrested and detained by the Moroccan
0:06:09 > 0:06:13authorities. You decide to leave Morocco after the uprisings of 2011
0:06:13 > 0:06:18and the political turmoil. You end up in France, you get a job with
0:06:18 > 0:06:21Charlie Hebdo, the most famous satirical, provocative magazine in
0:06:21 > 0:06:27the country. Were you therefore, perhaps, not as shocked and
0:06:27 > 0:06:31surprised as so many of us were by the attack on the magazine's
0:06:31 > 0:06:37offices? Was it something you were half expecting?Yeah, we were half
0:06:37 > 0:06:41expecting that. That we never imagined it would be as violent as
0:06:41 > 0:06:50that. Actually, Charb had a fatwa, a contract on his head. We used to
0:06:50 > 0:06:56joke about that. Because the contract was something about
0:06:56 > 0:07:01$200,000, which is not enough to save the newspaper from bankruptcy,
0:07:01 > 0:07:08otherwise we were telling him we would sell him to them. Charb was,
0:07:08 > 0:07:13as they say in French, and Arabophile. He loved the Arabic
0:07:13 > 0:07:22culture, the Arabic language. He was always saying Allah Akbar, and we
0:07:22 > 0:07:27said, stopped joking about that, one day they will come and kill you, and
0:07:27 > 0:07:32we won't be able to tell if it is real or not.For those who do not
0:07:32 > 0:07:36know the story, you survived because you were on holiday on January
0:07:36 > 0:07:41seventh, 2015. You were on holiday in Morocco. Your colleagues and your
0:07:41 > 0:07:44friends, especially Charb, who was your mental and your collaborator,
0:07:44 > 0:07:50he was one of those who was gunned down and killed. -- mentor.I was
0:07:50 > 0:07:55actually supposed to be that day. I was working. I was in Morocco, but I
0:07:55 > 0:07:59would wake up that day and send my suggestions for the articles. It was
0:07:59 > 0:08:03about Islamic State, by the way. I sent an email to Charb saying, that
0:08:03 > 0:08:08is what I wanted to do that week. I was waiting for the answer. And I
0:08:08 > 0:08:13got a phone call telling me, where are you? Are you at Charlie Hebdo?
0:08:13 > 0:08:18It is there has been a shooting. -- because there has been. That is how
0:08:18 > 0:08:22I learned they were killed.I need to ask you about the feelings you
0:08:22 > 0:08:27have had since then, how you have processed it. It is a long time now,
0:08:27 > 0:08:31it is years, but you were one of the people, we know that the jihadist
0:08:31 > 0:08:37wanted to kill you. You were on the list, along with Charb and others.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40You enter Charb had collaborated on a book they particularly disliked.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44Yet some people who died were not writing about Islam at all. Some
0:08:44 > 0:08:49were not even at -- and not even editorial staff. Do you feel guilty
0:08:49 > 0:08:56that you are producing work that was because of these jihadist violent
0:08:56 > 0:09:01people to go to that office, and yet others died, who had nothing to do
0:09:01 > 0:09:07with the cause, and you survived?Of course. When such a violent event
0:09:07 > 0:09:14happens, you are post- trauma situation. -- you are in a post-
0:09:14 > 0:09:20trauma situation. And just as if you survive a plane crash, you feel
0:09:20 > 0:09:24guilty, because you survived and all those people died. I felt guilty
0:09:24 > 0:09:28during the months and months...Did you also have a sense of
0:09:28 > 0:09:33responsibility?No. Because I understood after that that the only
0:09:33 > 0:09:41guilty people for that crime worthy terrorists. -- were the. I think it
0:09:41 > 0:09:46was a big mistake. We usually do now look for the reasons of the crime in
0:09:46 > 0:09:53the victims. Many people now, every time you have a terrorist attacks,
0:09:53 > 0:09:57many people try to say, it is because of the foreign policy of the
0:09:57 > 0:10:01country, it is because of racism, it is Kieran Collins of non-
0:10:01 > 0:10:06integration, et cetera. But actually, the guilty people are not
0:10:06 > 0:10:14the victims. The only guilty I find is the ideology of the killers.So
0:10:14 > 0:10:18the book are referred to, the Life of Muhammad, which she worked on
0:10:18 > 0:10:22with Charb, looking on that now, you would change nothing? You would
0:10:22 > 0:10:26publish it again today, knowing what you know now like you did in 2013?
0:10:26 > 0:10:32You know, when we published that look at that time, we knew that we
0:10:32 > 0:10:37were threatened. And actually, that was published after the Molotov
0:10:37 > 0:10:43cocktail attack on Charlie Hebdo in November 2011. So we knew that there
0:10:43 > 0:10:47was a taboo. But our duty as journalists, as satirical journalist
0:10:47 > 0:10:53than those cartoonists, I am not a cartoonist, at Charb was, is to
0:10:53 > 0:10:59break taboos in society. This is exactly our job. For us, as a French
0:10:59 > 0:11:06satirical newspaper, the right to so-called blasphemy, the right to
0:11:06 > 0:11:10criticise religions and to not necessarily criticise them but
0:11:10 > 0:11:15discuss and debate about them, that is what drives a limit between
0:11:15 > 0:11:18civilisation and barbarism. Interesting use that word to duty,
0:11:18 > 0:11:23in your answer. It seems to me that reading what you have said and
0:11:23 > 0:11:26written about your feelings after the Charlie had a tax, you feel a
0:11:26 > 0:11:34strong sense of duty. -- Charlie Hebdo attacks. A sense of duty to
0:11:34 > 0:11:38not only keep up the struggle but to intensify the struggle. In your
0:11:38 > 0:11:42writings, and your words, taking on Islam. It seems that that obligation
0:11:42 > 0:11:47lives on in you now, more than before?Of course. As you said in
0:11:47 > 0:11:52your presentation, it is a question of life or death. It is not
0:11:52 > 0:11:59something... It is not something superficial, a superficial question
0:11:59 > 0:12:04in our society. Islamic State arisen has been killing people around the
0:12:04 > 0:12:08world, in the west, but also in Africa and in Muslim countries.
0:12:08 > 0:12:15Track Islamic terrorism. So we need to fight that ideology on an
0:12:15 > 0:12:20ideological level.But there are also obligations you have to live a
0:12:20 > 0:12:26life that is tolerable, not just for you, but for those you love. And
0:12:26 > 0:12:29when you say that Isis continues to issue threats against you, which
0:12:29 > 0:12:33essentially revolve around separating your head from your body,
0:12:33 > 0:12:39that impacts your child, you have a child, it impacts your husband, it
0:12:39 > 0:12:43impacts all of your family. And it would be entirely legitimate for you
0:12:43 > 0:12:50to take a step that can say, I have to live a life, not just be a
0:12:50 > 0:12:57warrior in a struggle. -- take a step back and say.My friends, and
0:12:57 > 0:13:01those who are struggling with me, were killed. I cannot just say that
0:13:01 > 0:13:06I am lucky to live, and keep silent. When we keep silent, actually, we
0:13:06 > 0:13:15put in danger those who talk. So if all of us talk, if all the media in
0:13:15 > 0:13:23the world published the cartoons in 2006 in solidarity with Charlie had,
0:13:23 > 0:13:27what would they have done? Could they kill all of us? Without stating
0:13:27 > 0:13:33the obvious, this isn't just about you.You have had a child since. You
0:13:33 > 0:13:38are a mother now. You are also a daughter. You have parents.Let me
0:13:38 > 0:13:47tell you something. On the 14th of July, when this terrorist attack
0:13:47 > 0:13:52happened in Nice, and there were a lot of Abies who were watching
0:13:52 > 0:13:57fireworks, who were killed, actually, those babies, those
0:13:57 > 0:14:00families, they were not threatened. -- a lot of babies. They were not
0:14:00 > 0:14:06targeted. I am. I have security, they do not. They were killed and I
0:14:06 > 0:14:12am still alive. IMAK. I am personally targeted. But it is our
0:14:12 > 0:14:15civilisation that is targeted, that is what I believe. It is our style
0:14:15 > 0:14:19of living that is targeted.Do your family all support the stand you
0:14:19 > 0:14:28continue to take? Some of them, of course, are still in Morocco.
0:14:28 > 0:14:36Actually, yes, they support me. Most of them support me and, you know,
0:14:36 > 0:14:42there is an intelligent way to deal with these things. I have a lot of
0:14:42 > 0:14:48friends who are believers, who worship God who would not
0:14:48 > 0:14:53necessarily agree with there but we respect each other on a human level
0:14:53 > 0:14:56and we are still friends and see each other and find pleasure in
0:14:56 > 0:15:01being with each other.Some people who come to this argument about
0:15:01 > 0:15:06Islam and violence from a somewhat similar place to you, do believe you
0:15:06 > 0:15:15have gone too far. A former Charlie Hebdo journalist says you went too
0:15:15 > 0:15:23far in developing this is homophobic new races that gradually took over
0:15:23 > 0:15:27and ended up endorsing attacks on members of a minority religion with
0:15:27 > 0:15:32no influence in the corridors of power. His message, basically, you
0:15:32 > 0:15:41went too far.When he published this, it was before the terrorist
0:15:41 > 0:15:46attacks, and he was giving examples of what he considered as proof that
0:15:46 > 0:15:53Charlie Hebdo is so called is homophobic. And I do not agree with
0:15:53 > 0:16:00this term and will talk about it later. -- Islam phobic. Maybe it
0:16:00 > 0:16:07would be strange if you accuse in an article of being racist and if you
0:16:07 > 0:16:11said the author is was Labour... Surely you are not arguing that
0:16:11 > 0:16:15because you are Muslim you are necessarily immune from the
0:16:15 > 0:16:30accusation that some of what you write is Islamaphobic did not accept
0:16:30 > 0:16:38the word Islamaphobic.For me, if you are Muslim born, Kristian Bond,
0:16:38 > 0:16:41Jewish born, you have the right to criticise ideas and religions are
0:16:41 > 0:16:49ideas. Why am I not allowed to criticise that? There is a big
0:16:49 > 0:16:55difference between criticising ideas and criticising people. As a
0:16:55 > 0:17:00feminist, that instance, I am against the veil, the me it is a
0:17:00 > 0:17:06sexist costume but it does not mean I hate individually every veiled
0:17:06 > 0:17:12woman and deny her that the rights as a human being. There is a huge
0:17:12 > 0:17:16difference between criticising ideas and people.You make it sound so
0:17:16 > 0:17:21simple but it is complicated to an peak the two parts of that. Let me
0:17:21 > 0:17:28quote you words that seem relevant, Timothy Winter, who changed his name
0:17:28 > 0:17:36because he converted to its name. He works at Cambridge University, a
0:17:36 > 0:17:41director of religious studies and he says scorning the profit in the way
0:17:41 > 0:17:47he sees it yours and some other writings, goes beyond free speech
0:17:47 > 0:17:52and it is an act of violence and he compares it to the days of Nazi
0:17:52 > 0:18:00terror when cartoons supplied a narrative with Jewish cartoons. Are
0:18:00 > 0:18:03you not guilty with that kind of incitement particularly with the
0:18:03 > 0:18:11bookie Europe published which essentially its title is clear is to
0:18:11 > 0:18:19destroy Islamic fascism?For me cartooning the profit is no
0:18:19 > 0:18:26different to cartooning the Pope, chief estates,...It is not just
0:18:26 > 0:18:34cartoons. Islam is not a religion of peace and love but an ideology that
0:18:34 > 0:18:38teachers hate all the other and blesses the inferiority of women and
0:18:38 > 0:18:44non- Muslims Dasha you are condemning as fascists an entire
0:18:44 > 0:18:54religion.Do you know any religion that is just peace and love?
0:18:54 > 0:19:00Christianity,...This is not an argument against religion but you
0:19:00 > 0:19:09are saying it is an argument against Islam...Of course. It is applied as
0:19:09 > 0:19:14a fascist ideology by the terrorists. This ideology is
0:19:14 > 0:19:20committing crimes. It is killing and, no matter who they killed, the
0:19:20 > 0:19:26most important is killing the maximum number of people. Yet can
0:19:26 > 0:19:32compare it to fascism because there are a lot of characteristics close
0:19:32 > 0:19:39to what you find in all other fascism is.You are aiding and
0:19:39 > 0:19:44abetting those who, right now, on the streets of European cities are
0:19:44 > 0:19:49taking Muslims simply because they are Muslims Dasha you are giving
0:19:49 > 0:19:54them intellectual justification and we know from the figures we know the
0:19:54 > 0:20:02number of attacks on Muslims is rising exponentially.Are we talking
0:20:02 > 0:20:11about Islamic civilisation? About Islam with a capital I wish you find
0:20:11 > 0:20:19the Territories and includes music, costumes etc, or are we talking
0:20:19 > 0:20:23about what is written in the Islamic texts. The fact of praying five
0:20:23 > 0:20:31times a day et cetera. This religion is a way of worshipping, written in
0:20:31 > 0:20:38a bed when country, are we really keen out to apply it as something
0:20:38 > 0:20:45ruling the society in 2017? Of course is love is not accept
0:20:45 > 0:20:53equality between men and women. I am asking for a society where we apply
0:20:53 > 0:20:58human rights rules. If any religion is a spirituality and it stays at
0:20:58 > 0:21:03home, if religion helps someone to become someone better, religion is
0:21:03 > 0:21:09welcomed in that case but no religion, neither Islam,
0:21:09 > 0:21:16Christianity, to rule the society, a democracy.Who are you trying to
0:21:16 > 0:21:20persuade of your message with the way you present your ideas?It seems
0:21:20 > 0:21:27to me it is very unlikely you will persuade moderate Muslims of your
0:21:27 > 0:21:35case when you begin by saying that you associate Islam with fascism.
0:21:35 > 0:21:42People who live in Muslims country know that our... In Europe, the
0:21:42 > 0:21:47far-right wing is Islamist. In Europe the far-right do not share
0:21:47 > 0:21:51the same projects as Islamists but they have the same dialect ticket
0:21:51 > 0:21:59tools.But you are just talking about Islamic terror in the same way
0:21:59 > 0:22:02that Donald Trump does. Is that a particular problem with some
0:22:02 > 0:22:09fundamentalist Islamist factions, at one far end of the Muslim religion,
0:22:09 > 0:22:15or isn't a problem with the religion itself?Fahmy Islamists are those
0:22:15 > 0:22:26who see Islam as a political project. -- for me. If the Muslim 's
0:22:26 > 0:22:33are community, I belong to that community. Fahmy, Muslims are not a
0:22:33 > 0:22:37community but individuals, citizens, they have the right to define
0:22:37 > 0:22:41themselves by other things than by religion. Why do people consider
0:22:41 > 0:22:50that Muslims are condemned to be ruled by their religion.From being
0:22:50 > 0:22:54a young woman in Morocco, you have always felt this absolute need to
0:22:54 > 0:23:00resist and struggle and the fight a war. That fighting has ended up with
0:23:00 > 0:23:05you living in a metaphorical cage with security guards, secret
0:23:05 > 0:23:09locations, having to move time and again to make sure nobody knows your
0:23:09 > 0:23:17routine. Is it worth it?I think the Muslim people, those born in an
0:23:17 > 0:23:22Muslim countries who do not have the right to drink beer, to have a love
0:23:22 > 0:23:28story, to produce a movie, with kissing scenes, who do not have the
0:23:28 > 0:23:35simple rights that people enjoy here in the West, those people actually
0:23:35 > 0:23:40live in jail and they do not have a choice but struggling against this
0:23:40 > 0:23:46ideology and I do not understand this leftist Europe, born with all
0:23:46 > 0:23:50these rights, he thinks we have this kind of complacency towards what
0:23:50 > 0:23:57they think art muslins and who think we are people condemned to be ruled
0:23:57 > 0:24:04by our traditions. In the Muslim world you have people who deserve
0:24:04 > 0:24:11the same universal rights as you and this is my struggle. If I live in a
0:24:11 > 0:24:15moving jail, I consider that inside my head a much more free than those
0:24:15 > 0:24:20who threaten me.Zineb El Rhazoui, thank you for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:20 > 0:24:27You're welcome. Thank you very much indeed.