0:00:02 > 0:00:05Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:11Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17We are slowly and inevitably losing the generation of men
0:00:17 > 0:00:24who fought in and survived the last world war.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27Monuments to their courage and loss are dotted all around the world
0:00:27 > 0:00:29with many dedicated to the 55,000 young men
0:00:29 > 0:00:32who lost their lives serving in Britain's Bomber Command.
0:00:32 > 0:00:44Like this one in central London dedicated to the 55,000 young men.
0:00:44 > 0:00:46My guest today is 96-year-old George 'Johnny' Johnson,
0:00:47 > 0:00:49the last remaining British survivor of one of the most extraordinary
0:00:50 > 0:00:53and most famous aerial missions of World War II,
0:00:53 > 0:00:57the Dambusters raid.
0:00:57 > 0:00:59It was costly and not entirely successful -
0:00:59 > 0:01:06so why has it become such a part of Britain's national folklore?
0:01:21 > 0:01:26THEME MUSIC PLAYS.
0:01:34 > 0:01:42George 'Johnny' Johnson, welcome to HARDtalk. I want to begin by asking
0:01:42 > 0:01:47you whether you feel more pride or sadness that you are the last
0:01:47 > 0:01:58British Dambuster?I think it is both. Pride, certainly. That I am
0:01:58 > 0:02:04still able to support that squadron that I joined that time. So many
0:02:04 > 0:02:10things happened in my favour, I have to remind people I am the lucky one.
0:02:10 > 0:02:17I am still alive. It is not me, it is the squadron I represent and that
0:02:17 > 0:02:22is what I want to do for the rest of my life, the rest of the work I do,
0:02:22 > 0:02:31represent that squadron.Go back to 1943, you are a young bomber. Did
0:02:31 > 0:02:36you know what you are getting into when you and your crew were told
0:02:36 > 0:02:40that you were going into special training for a very special mission?
0:02:40 > 0:02:45Did you have any idea? None whatsoever. It was made perfectly
0:02:45 > 0:02:51clear that we would not know until much later and that we were not to
0:02:51 > 0:02:55talk to anybody about the training that we were doing all make anything
0:02:55 > 0:03:02about it.It was top-secret and, in the end, the inventor of this
0:03:02 > 0:03:10extraordinary bouncing bomb, the device that there was supposed to
0:03:10 > 0:03:15breach these dams in Germany, he met you all, Barnes Wallis, before you
0:03:15 > 0:03:22went on the mission and I suppose it was then that you understood what
0:03:22 > 0:03:27was going on?It was then that we had some conjecture after that
0:03:27 > 0:03:33meeting and the immediate one was the attacks on the German
0:03:33 > 0:03:40battleships because, with that system, we were actually dropping
0:03:40 > 0:03:44the bomb some 400 yards short of the target and it bounces across the
0:03:44 > 0:03:54water, hits the target and they sing. And we thought, that will give
0:03:54 > 0:03:59us time to release the bomb and getaway before we got into heavy
0:03:59 > 0:04:05defence areas and it was not until the next day, the Sunday, when we
0:04:05 > 0:04:11went into briefing, when we found out how wrong we could be.It was
0:04:11 > 0:04:15not the warships but the dams. I would be honest with you, when I
0:04:15 > 0:04:21read about the extraordinary demands made of the pilots and the crews and
0:04:21 > 0:04:27the plane itself, because you were having to fly so low and having to
0:04:27 > 0:04:31avoid so many different obstacles, including the church spires,
0:04:31 > 0:04:36electricity lines, to get to the precise point to drop the bomb is,
0:04:36 > 0:04:41it seems to me you and the crew surely must have felt that this was
0:04:41 > 0:04:45a mission that could well and in your death?It never entered our
0:04:45 > 0:04:56mind. That would stand, I sure, the confident in Joe... The pilot?
0:04:56 > 0:05:02That's right. That was the way I am sure the crew worked all the time.
0:05:02 > 0:05:09It got to the stage where, that low-flying you talked about, from my
0:05:09 > 0:05:14point of view, it was wonderful. I am in the most comfortable position
0:05:14 > 0:05:20in the aircraft, lying down all the time and the land, the ground is
0:05:20 > 0:05:26just whizzing past as you are going over, wonderful exhilarating
0:05:26 > 0:05:30experience.That is all very well when EU doing it in training but on
0:05:30 > 0:05:38the night itself, in May 1943 -- when you are doing it. It was to go
0:05:38 > 0:05:50after the Sorpe Dam and you insisted that your pilot, Joe, make ten runs
0:05:50 > 0:05:56before he got it absolutely right in terms of positioning so you could
0:05:56 > 0:06:02release the bomb?In my mind and I am sure in Joe's as well, we did not
0:06:02 > 0:06:08talk about it, we were gone on a mission, a special mission. Our job
0:06:08 > 0:06:14was to make sure that we did it right. When we got to the Sorpe Dam
0:06:14 > 0:06:18and discovered what that entails, we had already been disappointed at
0:06:18 > 0:06:23briefing by learning we would not be using the bombing techniques we had
0:06:23 > 0:06:30been practising for the six weeks, but it was going to be... An
0:06:30 > 0:06:37estimated drop, eventually. We were not spending the bomb at all, it was
0:06:37 > 0:06:45going to be an inert to drop. Going to flow down without port engine
0:06:45 > 0:06:52off, over the dam and estimated drop the bomb as nearly as possible to
0:06:52 > 0:07:01the centre as we could. If I was not satisfied, I called out, if Joe was
0:07:01 > 0:07:08not satisfied he pulled away and called dummy run. After the six or
0:07:08 > 0:07:13seven of these, a voice said Will somebody get this bomb out of here!
0:07:13 > 0:07:20And I had to realise how to become the most unpopular member of the
0:07:20 > 0:07:24crew in quick time but we were there to do a specific job and, to my
0:07:24 > 0:07:30mind, we had to do that job and I am sure the same was true as far as the
0:07:30 > 0:07:35Joe was concerned.But they were 19 Lancaster bombers involved in the
0:07:35 > 0:07:43Dambuster raid. Eight did not come back. 56 men did not come back
0:07:43 > 0:07:50either. Three were captured but 53 were killed. That's right. More than
0:07:50 > 0:07:53one third of the entire crew involved in the mission. That's
0:07:53 > 0:07:59right. How did you feel about the scale of the losses that your team
0:07:59 > 0:08:09took?Devastated at the time. Complete and utter shock and Barnes
0:08:09 > 0:08:14Wallis... The inventor of the bomb... Burst into tears and said, I
0:08:14 > 0:08:19have killed all of those young men and will never do anything like that
0:08:19 > 0:08:26again.Johnny, you dropped your bomb and it was a direct hit on the Sorpe
0:08:26 > 0:08:31Dam butt in the end that dam was not breached. The other two dams were
0:08:31 > 0:08:39destroyed and the Mohne dam, when it was breached, it led to huge amounts
0:08:39 > 0:08:45of water filling the valley, for miles and miles top when he flew
0:08:45 > 0:08:52back from your Sorpe Dam, you saw and what did it feel like when you
0:08:52 > 0:08:57saw this amazing mission with the amazing bouncing bomb had worked, it
0:08:57 > 0:09:06had destroyed the Mohne dam.What were your feelings? To me it was the
0:09:06 > 0:09:15highlight of the operation. To see the actual result of success, of
0:09:15 > 0:09:19part of it. We knew by radio broadcast that the Mohne had been
0:09:19 > 0:09:25breached and that the Eder had been breached by radio broadcast but
0:09:25 > 0:09:32approaching the Mohne or what was the Mohne was like an inland sea.
0:09:32 > 0:09:41There was water everywhere but it was not easy. It had cost lives.Did
0:09:41 > 0:09:47it surprise you, the reaction to the Dambuster raid? It was big news at
0:09:47 > 0:09:53the time. The British wartime press was so pleased to have this sort of
0:09:53 > 0:09:57Triumph to Crow about and then, of course, after the war, it was
0:09:57 > 0:10:04perhaps the most famous single aerial mission that had been flown
0:10:04 > 0:10:10and it was celebrated and, of course, in the end it was made into
0:10:10 > 0:10:14a film. But it surprise you to a degree to which it became part of
0:10:14 > 0:10:21the British myth of the wall?Would think it surprise me but I have some
0:10:21 > 0:10:26grave misgivings about that particular period after the war.
0:10:26 > 0:10:35About the group of people that I call retrospective historians and
0:10:35 > 0:10:40there were a group of them who claimed that the Dambuster raid
0:10:40 > 0:10:47should never have taken place, that it achieved nothing, it cost an
0:10:47 > 0:10:52awful lot of money in training, the special aircraft, training of the
0:10:52 > 0:10:57crews, danger to the crews itself, an awful lot of lives and aircraft
0:10:57 > 0:11:02loss as well. I would say if I have met one of those characters I hope
0:11:02 > 0:11:06my hands are tied behind my back was would not be quite sure what I would
0:11:06 > 0:11:11do to them.But don't they have a point about the Dambuster raid
0:11:11 > 0:11:17because in the end you did breach two of the three dams and he did
0:11:17 > 0:11:21destroy some FAQ trees and some coalmines and, it should be said,
0:11:21 > 0:11:27you also killed more than a thousand German people...Yes, indeed...But
0:11:27 > 0:11:33according to senior Nazis, the German war effort was not really put
0:11:33 > 0:11:37back very much and, in fact, they rebuilt the fact is an all of the
0:11:37 > 0:11:43infrastructure within five months. There were at least four reasons why
0:11:43 > 0:11:50it was a good rate and the first is that it showed Hitler and the German
0:11:50 > 0:11:55hierarchy that what they thought was impregnable, the Royal Air Force
0:11:55 > 0:12:02could get through and destroyed. Secondly, it meant that the skilled
0:12:02 > 0:12:04workmen who were being employed building anti- invasion walked up
0:12:04 > 0:12:12the coast had to be pulled in to help repair the dams and thirdly, it
0:12:12 > 0:12:20did some damage to the factories themselves, it did decrease as the
0:12:20 > 0:12:24output- not as much as we would like - that it did decrease the output
0:12:24 > 0:12:32somewhat. And I think, finally, the best was the effect of the morale on
0:12:32 > 0:12:39the people of this country because, as you mentioned the papers, they
0:12:39 > 0:12:48were full of it. And it happened so close to the success of Alamein and
0:12:48 > 0:12:51it raised the question, isn't this the turning point of the wall?There
0:12:51 > 0:12:56is another way of looking at this, Johnny, and it is not just about the
0:12:56 > 0:13:02Dambuster raid at bomber command in general and you, as a young soldier,
0:13:02 > 0:13:09were involved in many raids and sorties in the period right across
0:13:09 > 0:13:13Germany and Italy as well. And it has to be said, Hugh and your cruise
0:13:13 > 0:13:22were responsible for the deaths of many thousands of civilians. -- you
0:13:22 > 0:13:27and your cruise. As well as military personnel and you have many years to
0:13:27 > 0:13:36reflect on this. Do you have in you any sense of remorse or regret or
0:13:36 > 0:13:43guilt for those deaths?We did not start the war. If you are threatened
0:13:43 > 0:13:50by war, you have to defend yourself. You have to defend your own country
0:13:50 > 0:13:56and you have to do it by whatever means it you can. And the example
0:13:56 > 0:14:07had been set by Hitler himself, the way he bombed our cities, London,
0:14:07 > 0:14:11Coventry, Liverpool and the rest of them, regardless of human life or
0:14:11 > 0:14:17anything else. That was the sort of thing which had to be fought against
0:14:17 > 0:14:24and one of the ways to fight against it was reprisal of that sort of
0:14:24 > 0:14:37attack and that is where eventually Bomber Command became, I think, Rob
0:14:37 > 0:14:51Lee criticised for the way they attack. -- Rob Lee. That is why I
0:14:51 > 0:14:56joined, it was my way to be able to help to get back at Hitler and what
0:14:56 > 0:15:01he had started with his attack on our country. He was my enemy and
0:15:01 > 0:15:07that is the way it stayed the whole time.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11So, when you saw the broken dams and when you saw the villages being
0:15:11 > 0:15:15swept away by the waters, you just close your mind to the fact that
0:15:15 > 0:15:19civilians would be down there drowning?Crossed my at all. I begin
0:15:19 > 0:15:31to wonder, frankly, as a young child, I had a pretty horrible
0:15:31 > 0:15:40childhood. And I found that I was left with a father who in the first
0:15:40 > 0:15:44place thought I was a mistake anyway. I was the sixth, the
0:15:44 > 0:15:52youngest of six children. And he beat me often, regularly, and I
0:15:52 > 0:16:01sometimes wonder, was emotion beaten out of me at that stage? Could I
0:16:01 > 0:16:08feel so little at that stage?Well, here is a question about your
0:16:08 > 0:16:13emotions run after the war, or at the end of the war, because as I
0:16:13 > 0:16:17talk about Bomber Command and its role in the war, that there was an
0:16:17 > 0:16:20ambivalence about it. And even Churchill, when he made his victory
0:16:20 > 0:16:24speech, he saluted the efforts of so many different branches of the
0:16:24 > 0:16:30military, but he did not go out of his way to salute the work of Bomber
0:16:30 > 0:16:36Command.No.And in some ways it seems there was a sense that Bomber
0:16:36 > 0:16:41Command, with particularly its targeting of civilians in Dresden
0:16:41 > 0:16:45and hamburg and some other German cities, had gone too far. Had Roque
0:16:45 > 0:16:51in a moral code. Were you angry with Churchill, that he didn't thank
0:16:51 > 0:16:57Bomber Command specifically? -- Hamburg.I was angry at Churchill,
0:16:57 > 0:17:07always have been. But I think, since after the war, the first time we
0:17:07 > 0:17:14went back on a television programme, the cameraman and I were walking
0:17:14 > 0:17:20across the dam and said, stop here, Johnny. I reckon this is where you
0:17:20 > 0:17:24dropped your bomb. And I stopped, looked over the side, and I was
0:17:24 > 0:17:28dropping that on again just like that. And then I walked over to the
0:17:28 > 0:17:33other side, and I saw that lovely valley going down there, and I said,
0:17:33 > 0:17:44you know, I am almost glad we didn't breach this dam. Had we done so,
0:17:44 > 0:17:50this valley would have been completely ruined. OK, it could have
0:17:50 > 0:17:54been rebuilt, but it would never have been the same. And it made me
0:17:54 > 0:17:58think more about the after effects of war, and about war itself. It
0:17:58 > 0:18:04didn't make me think any the less of our war effort. Something we had to
0:18:04 > 0:18:08fight for our own defence, that was it.I just want to quote you the
0:18:08 > 0:18:13words of one historian, Richard Overy, who has written a lot about
0:18:13 > 0:18:19Bomber Command and about the morale some of some of the decisions taken,
0:18:19 > 0:18:24for example the fire bombing of and Hamburg. He says that we need to be
0:18:24 > 0:18:31open and honest that the British decision was specifically to target
0:18:31 > 0:18:37towns, cities and civilians, to win the war. But he says let's be
0:18:37 > 0:18:41honest. That was a decision taken at the top, and the air crews
0:18:41 > 0:18:46themselves, people like you, he says, were in many ways victims. He
0:18:46 > 0:18:50says you were, quoting him, he says you were sent out in often appalling
0:18:50 > 0:18:57conditions, in poor weather, with fear in your hearts, constantly
0:18:57 > 0:19:01aware of the hungry presence of death, he says. Did you and do you
0:19:01 > 0:19:07think that, in a way, you were a victim, or is that nonsense?No,
0:19:07 > 0:19:21never. I... I don't remember feeling afraid at any time. I don't remember
0:19:21 > 0:19:27feeling any apprehension at any time.That's very hard to believe.
0:19:27 > 0:19:38Basically, because I had joined to do a job. And that job was all my
0:19:38 > 0:19:43concentration. And that was the only thing I thought about.I talked
0:19:43 > 0:19:51about Churchill, and you said you felt anger towards Churchill when he
0:19:51 > 0:19:55didn't thank and salute the work of Bomber Command. In fact, you can
0:19:55 > 0:19:59Bomber Command were the one group of military personnel who were not
0:19:59 > 0:20:06given a campaign medal right after the war.No.Does that still hurt?
0:20:06 > 0:20:13It does, very much so. It hurts more so now, because there is so little,
0:20:13 > 0:20:19in fact no respect, no recognition, of the individuals who were lost in
0:20:19 > 0:20:28Bomber Command, fighting for their country, fighting for freedom, which
0:20:28 > 0:20:31we are being able to subsequently enjoyed.You have spent a lot of
0:20:31 > 0:20:38time talking to particularly children about your experiences.
0:20:38 > 0:20:45What is it, what is the message, that you want to give by taking so
0:20:45 > 0:20:52much time to talk to the new generation?You do ask the most
0:20:52 > 0:20:56awkward questions. However, here goes. What is the message I want to
0:20:56 > 0:21:03give? I want, first of all, from the school's point of view, the children
0:21:03 > 0:21:08have a chance to appreciate the country they are living in, or why
0:21:08 > 0:21:12they are living in it, and what it might have been had things gone the
0:21:12 > 0:21:17other way. I think it is part, an essential part, of their early
0:21:17 > 0:21:24education, and something for them on which to think in the future. I
0:21:24 > 0:21:31have... Didn't start talking about my war until after I lost my wife.
0:21:31 > 0:21:35And then the children suggested that I should start, and perhaps it would
0:21:35 > 0:21:40stop me grieving all the time for mum, as they put it. And I thought
0:21:40 > 0:21:44about it, and I thought I would try it. And it worked.Do you think that
0:21:44 > 0:21:53you speak about it with a sense of pride in what you did, but do you
0:21:53 > 0:22:02also bring to it a feeling of perhaps horror, in a way, about what
0:22:02 > 0:22:07war is?After so long, I have... Things seem a little bit different
0:22:07 > 0:22:16now from what they were then. But, at that time, I thought it was
0:22:16 > 0:22:22necessary that we should be fighting that war, and I thought it was
0:22:22 > 0:22:26necessary that we should fight it the best way we could. And Bomber
0:22:26 > 0:22:39Command was one of the advantages of that type of thought. I feel, now, I
0:22:39 > 0:22:50still feel, privileged, even honoured, to have taken part in the
0:22:50 > 0:22:53Dams Raid. I think that was the highlight of my operational career,
0:22:53 > 0:22:58and I shall always remember it as such.You have three children, you
0:22:58 > 0:23:03have grandchildren, and you even have great-grandchildren.Many of
0:23:03 > 0:23:07them.Many of them, and I dare say you will soon have another
0:23:07 > 0:23:11generation following them. Do you hope, and do you believe, that
0:23:11 > 0:23:17always the next generation here in the UK will learn about the
0:23:17 > 0:23:22dambusters, and the dambuster raid? It has entered the national
0:23:22 > 0:23:29folklore, hasn't it?Some years ago, I said to my son, I think it's time
0:23:29 > 0:23:34we started forgetting about these things. He said you can't forget
0:23:34 > 0:23:40that, dad. That's history. I said I don't want to be bloody history. But
0:23:40 > 0:23:47I find now that... I am amazed that the interest that has developed over
0:23:47 > 0:23:52the last three or four years, not only in the Dams Raid, but in the
0:23:52 > 0:23:56war itself, particularly. And it seems to me that there is still a
0:23:56 > 0:24:00certain amount of interest. It is still interesting to people. Good, I
0:24:00 > 0:24:07am glad. If they are going to forget it, that is good too. That's up to
0:24:07 > 0:24:12them. But as far as I am concerned, I shall never forget it, and that's
0:24:12 > 0:24:17really what it boils down to. It is too prominent in my mind, it was too
0:24:17 > 0:24:25prominent in my life at that time, and has lived with me ever since.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29Johnny Johnson, we have to end there. But it has been a privilege
0:24:29 > 0:24:33to talk to you. Thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.Thank you
0:24:33 > 0:24:37very much for coming, I have enjoyed it.