0:00:00 > 0:00:12Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:12 > 0:00:19Welcome to HARDtalk. The beginning of the year is a time for reflecting
0:00:19 > 0:00:26on the path and plotting a better future. Britain, their focus is on
0:00:26 > 0:00:30where Brexit is taking the nation. How will leaving the EU will affect
0:00:30 > 0:00:37the UK's sense of itself and its international standing? My guest is
0:00:37 > 0:00:41a distinguished political veteran, Lord David Owen a former labour
0:00:41 > 0:00:44secretary who tried and failed to change the face of British politics
0:00:44 > 0:00:48by launching a new party on the centre-left. Does the UK currently
0:00:48 > 0:01:22have a clue where it is going?Lord Owen, welcome to HARDtalk. Nice to
0:01:22 > 0:01:28be here.Let's begin with Brexit. 2018 must be the year deal is done.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32An agreement reached between Britain and the EU 27 on the shape of
0:01:32 > 0:01:37Brexit. If it is not done this year, there will be no time to ratify it
0:01:37 > 0:01:42before 2019. Do you believe a deal will be done?It can be done and I
0:01:42 > 0:01:49think it will be done. I am more optimistic now that we have a
0:01:49 > 0:01:52transition period which many people called for and I think it is
0:01:52 > 0:01:57essential.Lighted immediately you did upon the transition period.
0:01:57 > 0:02:01Doesn't the idea of one mean that what we are looking at is a total
0:02:01 > 0:02:03barge? In essence, the British government has agreed will still
0:02:03 > 0:02:07play by the EU's rules for two or three years, possibly more, after
0:02:07 > 0:02:15March 2019.By training I am a doctorate of medicine. I am an
0:02:15 > 0:02:18abolitionist and when you look at the evidence, people need more time
0:02:18 > 0:02:23to adjust. If we had planned properly for it, if there had been a
0:02:23 > 0:02:30government evaluation of what leaving the EU meant done by David
0:02:30 > 0:02:33Cameron's government and we had gotten plants in place then it could
0:02:33 > 0:02:39have been done much quicker. Once it was clear that the Cabinet was
0:02:39 > 0:02:42completely bare and Cameron would not even remain as Prime Minister,
0:02:42 > 0:02:48it was bound to take more time. I don't think we should expect to be
0:02:48 > 0:02:54anything other than basically our by December 2020. We will be out of the
0:02:54 > 0:03:04EU in March... In 2019 and completely from the arrangement. We
0:03:04 > 0:03:09will still be Europeans. We will be traders in Europe as we have been
0:03:09 > 0:03:16for centuries. The emphasis of our exporting effort will shift but that
0:03:16 > 0:03:20has already been shifting. We have been moving away from Europe and
0:03:20 > 0:03:24towards foreign markets for the last 20 years.We will talk about trade
0:03:24 > 0:03:31and the wider diplomatic field in which Britain will play. To stick
0:03:31 > 0:03:36with the process for a moment, you have written much about it. I quote
0:03:36 > 0:03:41you directly, Brexit never was and never can be an easy decision. It
0:03:41 > 0:03:48must be so filled by a United UK. Only a united country will get a
0:03:48 > 0:03:53good deal from the EU. It is quite transparently obvious that the UK is
0:03:53 > 0:03:58not united. Even the Cabinet is not united over what represents a good
0:03:58 > 0:04:02deal for Britain.I think they are coming to a better position. It
0:04:02 > 0:04:08would be better if they were mourned United. This issue of Europe has
0:04:08 > 0:04:11been splitting political parties ever since I first became a
0:04:11 > 0:04:17candidate for the Labour Party in 1962 when this issue was raised. We
0:04:17 > 0:04:21have only had a two referendums, quite exceptional, and that is a
0:04:21 > 0:04:26cost the Labour Party was split, massively, in 1975 and had a
0:04:26 > 0:04:29referendum and the Conservative Party was split massively and we
0:04:29 > 0:04:38have this recent referendum. MPs show by the day how difficult it is
0:04:38 > 0:04:44for them to face reality. They voted for a referendum and put it through.
0:04:44 > 0:04:48You abdicate from the decision. You passed that over to the people of
0:04:48 > 0:04:53the country. They can get involved in negotiation strategy and some
0:04:53 > 0:04:58elements but even as a you are constrained. It is an international
0:04:58 > 0:05:01negotiation between 27 countries and ourselves. It is not even really a
0:05:01 > 0:05:05negotiation. They will come forward with a framework and we have to
0:05:05 > 0:05:10agree.The referendum clearly was advisory, that was the nature of
0:05:10 > 0:05:15the. Secondly, as the upshot of the moment. The argument today from many
0:05:15 > 0:05:19people in the Conservative Party who are pro- remain and the Labour Party
0:05:19 > 0:05:23who are pro- remain as well is independent of servers is a feeling
0:05:23 > 0:05:27that if the public opinion would fundamentally shift during the
0:05:27 > 0:05:31course of 2018 then there would be legitimate grounds for a second
0:05:31 > 0:05:36vote.Do you accept that? I don't believe there would be. I must say
0:05:36 > 0:05:42that when a government sent out a message, paid for by the taxpayer,
0:05:42 > 0:05:46to every individual and says this is your decision and we will abide by
0:05:46 > 0:05:52it, I think that the country must abide by it.As a Democrat, doesn't
0:05:52 > 0:05:56worry you that you guv, which has been tracking opinion ever since the
0:05:56 > 0:06:00referendum, has found recently a consistent feeling among the rich
0:06:00 > 0:06:04public who say they would prefer Britain to remain and not leave.
0:06:04 > 0:06:10There are many different polls on that but I am not going into them. I
0:06:10 > 0:06:12don't enter into the argument about the referendum. That decision has
0:06:12 > 0:06:17been taken by the people. There is a legitimate argument about how we
0:06:17 > 0:06:20negotiate and what position were dogged by highlighting the decision
0:06:20 > 0:06:35is taken. -- but the decision is taken. A federal Europe was warned
0:06:35 > 0:06:40about two years ago. I supported that. It's not so much about trade
0:06:40 > 0:06:43as the fundamental ones that this country should be a self-governing
0:06:43 > 0:06:50country.Talking constitutionalism. Usage in the House of Lords. The EU
0:06:50 > 0:06:53withdrawal bill is going through the Commons and it looks as if Theresa
0:06:53 > 0:06:59May has cobbled together a legislative deal which is acceptable
0:06:59 > 0:07:06to a majority in the Commons. You will go to the lords and there is a
0:07:06 > 0:07:11strong possibility that there is not a majority in the House of Lords and
0:07:11 > 0:07:17the Tory party is considering a slew of pro- Brexit peers to ensure a
0:07:17 > 0:07:22majority in the Lords.It has no legitimacy at all to block a
0:07:22 > 0:07:27referendum. House of Lords. It is the House of Commons who sent it to
0:07:27 > 0:07:33the upper house. We are an advisory chamber who can make sensible
0:07:33 > 0:07:37changes on legal issues and there are complicated legal questions
0:07:37 > 0:07:41about this bill which are inevitable. But they should be
0:07:41 > 0:07:46weighed and considered. At the end of the day, the House of Commons has
0:07:46 > 0:07:51to determine the issue. They have to be very aware, more than they are at
0:07:51 > 0:07:56the moment, of the will of the people. This issue has been with us
0:07:56 > 0:08:03for a very long time. In 1975 there was a decisive vote and it was
0:08:03 > 0:08:13accepted. Acyclic, for four years. This time I think it has surprised
0:08:13 > 0:08:18the people who are passionate. I supported Europe for many years. And
0:08:18 > 0:08:24I did not make a U-turn. I did not even change my position. I oppose
0:08:24 > 0:08:29the eurozone. I don't believe you can run a currency from 27
0:08:29 > 0:08:35countries. I did not believe in a federal Europe and never did. As
0:08:35 > 0:08:41Foreign Secretary I put to Cabinet a paper that was designed to show you
0:08:41 > 0:08:47could be in Europe without it coming a federal Europe. Now with the
0:08:47 > 0:08:50French president, very determined for a federal Europe, good luck to
0:08:50 > 0:08:55him. If he and Germany put their acts together, it is possible to see
0:08:55 > 0:09:00a fleece the eurozone countries, may be a reduced number, effectively
0:09:00 > 0:09:04being a United States of Europe and we will have good relations with
0:09:04 > 0:09:07them.Talking about how that will work, you wrote a book about the
0:09:07 > 0:09:13foreign policy after Brexit.Someone 25 years younger than me voted
0:09:13 > 0:09:17remain and I should think this shows you can bridge the gap.That's
0:09:17 > 0:09:21unpicked the thoughts behind the book. You said... This is not in the
0:09:21 > 0:09:25book that something you said before the referendum itself that stuck in
0:09:25 > 0:09:29my mind. We will rediscover the skills of blue water diplomacy and
0:09:29 > 0:09:35rise to the challenge of global markets. It would be the spark we
0:09:35 > 0:09:40need to re-energise Britain. A challenge and an opportunity. Is
0:09:40 > 0:09:45touring staff. What on earth is this blue water that we must see you
0:09:45 > 0:09:52speak of?We do before, we used to have a worldwide Navy.This is not
0:09:52 > 0:09:57the times of Lord Palmerston any longer...Of course not. It is a
0:09:57 > 0:10:04modest navy but it has -- is capable in my view, I don't see them playing
0:10:04 > 0:10:09up and down the South China Sea taking on China but I do think we
0:10:09 > 0:10:13have wanted and needed for the UN a naval rapid reaction force for many
0:10:13 > 0:10:18years and I think this could be a lead role for Britain but with
0:10:18 > 0:10:24Commonwealth partners.But to begin with this notion of Britain rising
0:10:24 > 0:10:29to the challenge of local markets and a focus on the military because
0:10:29 > 0:10:38it seems much more important to focus on trade.We am -- we have a
0:10:38 > 0:10:42history of merchant trade. We have gone and opened markets in the past.
0:10:42 > 0:10:46You may sound like a rude yard Kipling novel. The reality is quite
0:10:46 > 0:10:57different. -- Rudyard Kipling.When I left the House of Commons, I left
0:10:57 > 0:11:02it. I was in business in the UK in textiles. In Russia with steel and
0:11:02 > 0:11:06oil and in America with pharmaceutical industries. I am not
0:11:06 > 0:11:13talking completely with no knowledge of what it takes to export.And a
0:11:13 > 0:11:19fair point. But I'll wonder if you are reading what those outside
0:11:19 > 0:11:21Britain looking in our same. Essentially key trading partners
0:11:21 > 0:11:24with the British government says they will reach out to extract deals
0:11:24 > 0:11:33with. This is what they say. China, Beijing's state-run global Times...
0:11:33 > 0:11:37When Philip Hammond went there just before Christmas, they said that
0:11:37 > 0:11:41uncertainty over the future position of the UK in global trade in
0:11:41 > 0:11:43financial markets will inevitably have affected the investment and
0:11:43 > 0:11:49cooperation plans of Chinese companies in the UK. India. The High
0:11:49 > 0:11:54Commissioner, no less of India in the UK has said that Britain will
0:11:54 > 0:11:58have to accept higher levels of immigration from India if it is to
0:11:58 > 0:12:01have any hope of signing a free-trade deal with India after
0:12:01 > 0:12:07Brexit. This is the reality.If they are skilled people coming in to fill
0:12:07 > 0:12:10jobs in high-quality areas of expertise, India does have great
0:12:10 > 0:12:14knowledge in terms of computers and modern science, we should welcome
0:12:14 > 0:12:18them.That you know that most people... I wouldn't presume to know
0:12:18 > 0:12:22what they really felt, but many people it seems to voted Brexit,
0:12:22 > 0:12:26voted on the grounds that it would reduce immigration, period.What
0:12:26 > 0:12:30they did not want was unlimited immigration from 27 EU countries
0:12:30 > 0:12:37that they had no capacity to limit or control. We will have to have
0:12:37 > 0:12:41immigration laws now answerable to Parliament that this is not a closed
0:12:41 > 0:12:46door. We are not closing ourselves to people who can help our economy
0:12:46 > 0:12:49or help our national health service, help science. And also to students.
0:12:49 > 0:12:57We need to be very much aware of the balance and immigration has provided
0:12:57 > 0:13:02great strengths for this country. And I don't know of any serious
0:13:02 > 0:13:05Brexiteer who believes we will suddenly stop all immigration. We
0:13:05 > 0:13:10need to moderate it. It grew out of control, particularly where was
0:13:10 > 0:13:14concentrated in parts of the country where there was not enough in the
0:13:14 > 0:13:18health service nor education.And if you could address my point about
0:13:18 > 0:13:23China? In the word of a China expert here in London he says the Britain
0:13:23 > 0:13:28has diminished and isolated itself in the eyes of the Chinese as a
0:13:28 > 0:13:33result of Brexit.I don't agree with that. I know it is sometimes said by
0:13:33 > 0:13:37these experts but I have watched little article about it. Just
0:13:37 > 0:13:42recently I think in the Telegraph, a small company in Hastings deciding
0:13:42 > 0:13:49to move from 90% into European trade to move into China. They took an
0:13:49 > 0:13:55area of high electronic lighting equipment and they now sell into
0:13:55 > 0:13:58chain hotels and do extremely well in China.But we could have done
0:13:58 > 0:14:03that in the EU. Germany's trade relationship with China outstripped
0:14:03 > 0:14:06sales because they do very good exporting stuff. I don't see how
0:14:06 > 0:14:11Brexit will improve that.
0:14:11 > 0:14:16Why do you take on yourself to say we are not? What do you know of this
0:14:16 > 0:14:20issue?I'm just saying relative to Germany...Why do we spend our whole
0:14:20 > 0:14:25time doing ourselves down? Why do we have day after day newspaper stories
0:14:25 > 0:14:28aimed at the moralising, aimed at sharpening against it? Who are these
0:14:28 > 0:14:31people who can't take defeat in a referendum who spend their whole
0:14:31 > 0:14:35time on this issue? There is a positive story. We are a great
0:14:35 > 0:14:39country still, we have a great deal of courage, enterprise, energy in
0:14:39 > 0:14:43our young people. I know you are one of them who would wish to stay, but
0:14:43 > 0:14:49what I would like to see about those younger people, they are much more,
0:14:49 > 0:14:53in my view, turning their hand to the challenge in front of us.What
0:14:53 > 0:14:57would you call the IMF and the CBI, and the Bank of England, are these
0:14:57 > 0:15:00all part of this sort of doom mongering conspiracy?All three of
0:15:00 > 0:15:03the people you have mentioned... Well, they are institutions.They
0:15:03 > 0:15:07were prophets of doom before the referendum result. Those exact
0:15:07 > 0:15:12predictions have not been fulfilled. And when we are joint bottom of the
0:15:12 > 0:15:16G7 and growth?We have had a devaluation in part as a result of
0:15:16 > 0:15:20Brexit but in part in my view because we were at an unrealistic
0:15:20 > 0:15:23exchange rate. Our exporters are moving up... I don't really
0:15:23 > 0:15:27understand why one should spend our whole time questioning the very
0:15:27 > 0:15:30judgement of the British people who decided that they wanted to leave
0:15:30 > 0:15:35the EU. Is that the role of the elite? Is this the role of some MPs
0:15:35 > 0:15:41who were not able to win? Or are we prepared to live with the result and
0:15:41 > 0:15:45make a success of it? And I really do believe this requires...I think
0:15:45 > 0:15:49it is important that the future be considered very carefully, not just
0:15:49 > 0:15:53from the point of view of the politics of Brexit, but from what
0:15:53 > 0:15:57those outside the UK are actually saying and thinking about Britain's
0:15:57 > 0:16:01future relationship with their own countries. To finish...What I would
0:16:01 > 0:16:06say it he read out is a challenge. And I don't deny it is a challenge.
0:16:06 > 0:16:10But what do you think the Americans are going to make of the UK post-
0:16:10 > 0:16:15Brexit? Just to quote you a couple of important voices, senior Democrat
0:16:15 > 0:16:18Senator Ben Carden said recently Germany post- Britain leaving the
0:16:18 > 0:16:22EU, Germany will become even more dominant in the EU. And he is
0:16:22 > 0:16:28looking to the EU first, not to an independent UK.Well, Germany is
0:16:28 > 0:16:31already the dominant partner in the EU, it is the strongest country. But
0:16:31 > 0:16:36I believe that written will become a very important, major contributor to
0:16:36 > 0:16:41NATO, which will be welcomed by many Americans. After all, it wasn't just
0:16:41 > 0:16:45President Trump, it was president Obama who told us we were
0:16:45 > 0:16:51freeloading, we in Europe, on NATO. You speak with a perspective full of
0:16:51 > 0:16:55fascinating experience. A former Labour Party from Foreign Secretary,
0:16:55 > 0:16:59who decided to leave Labour, you found it to left wing, to socialist,
0:16:59 > 0:17:03you wanted to create a new centre ground political movement, the
0:17:03 > 0:17:06Social Democratic party, for a while. It was extraordinary popular
0:17:06 > 0:17:10but ultimately it was a failed attempt to break the mould of
0:17:10 > 0:17:13British politics. Here we sit today with a really avowedly socialist,
0:17:13 > 0:17:17leftist Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who says that he now
0:17:17 > 0:17:21represents the new centre ground in British politics. He says he is on
0:17:21 > 0:17:25the cusp of a historic victory for socialism and the left in the United
0:17:25 > 0:17:29Kingdom. First of all, do you think that is true?I don't think we can
0:17:29 > 0:17:34tell. I think that Labour got many votes, many, many votes, in the
0:17:34 > 0:17:37north of England, from people who wanted to leave the European Union.
0:17:37 > 0:17:43And I think that Labour should focus itself on getting a good result,
0:17:43 > 0:17:47leaving the European Union. And I think all of us should.It seems to
0:17:47 > 0:17:51be Labour's policy is to say, yes, we are going to leave, we want to
0:17:51 > 0:17:54leave, but we want to stay if possible inside the customs union,
0:17:54 > 0:17:58baby inside the single market as well, and if that isn't possible, we
0:17:58 > 0:18:01want the closest relationship possible and the softest wrecks at
0:18:01 > 0:18:06possible.Well, I want the closest relations possible, but it is not
0:18:06 > 0:18:09possible to have control over the emigration from EU countries into
0:18:09 > 0:18:15this country and stay in the single market and in the customs union.
0:18:15 > 0:18:20This has been made crystal apparent. And you have only got to see what
0:18:20 > 0:18:24President Macron only just recently criticised the EU for giving as much
0:18:24 > 0:18:28to David Cameron in his deal, he called it blackmail. Now he
0:18:28 > 0:18:31definitely wouldn't give us a better deal than was offered to David
0:18:31 > 0:18:36Cameron, and that wasn't sufficient. So I think...You have couched your
0:18:36 > 0:18:39view of Corbyn in terms of Brexit, and it is very important. Let's just
0:18:39 > 0:18:44leave Brexit aside for a moment. Well, let me, I didn't answer your
0:18:44 > 0:18:48question on Corbyn and I will answer your question on Colburn. I think he
0:18:48 > 0:18:52has got quite a lot running for himself and his party, and good to
0:18:52 > 0:18:56him. I think it is a very remarkable achievement.Sorry to interrupt, it
0:18:56 > 0:19:00is rude of me, but if you are in Labour today, a senior figure in the
0:19:00 > 0:19:04Labour Party, would you feel able to serve under Jeremy Corbyn, or would
0:19:04 > 0:19:08you walk away?I gave money to the Labour Party at the last election. I
0:19:08 > 0:19:12am a supporter but not a member. I am not a member because I don't
0:19:12 > 0:19:16agree with quite a lot of its economic policy. But I do think that
0:19:16 > 0:19:19they have shown greater strength. I personally think Labour is more
0:19:19 > 0:19:23right than not on the health service, and I think this government
0:19:23 > 0:19:27is literally destroyed the health service in England. Fortunately, not
0:19:27 > 0:19:32yet in Scotland, Wales or in Northern Ireland. So I am still a
0:19:32 > 0:19:35social democrat. I have never made any secret of this. I have never
0:19:35 > 0:19:40been a Tory, and I will never be a Tory. But on this issue at the
0:19:40 > 0:19:43moment, let me focus. I do believe the issue for this country over
0:19:43 > 0:19:472018, and I agree with you, this is the moment where the toughest
0:19:47 > 0:19:54decisions are going to be taken over Brexit, that we should rally as a
0:19:54 > 0:19:58country, we should spend our time on getting the best deal that, that
0:19:58 > 0:20:01party politics should slip away into its normal place, and not elevate.
0:20:01 > 0:20:06There will be time of an election, it might be 2019, might be 2020,
0:20:06 > 0:20:10might even go to 2021. By that time, Labour has the opportunity to
0:20:10 > 0:20:13present itself even more successfully than it did at the last
0:20:13 > 0:20:17election, which it didn't win. I hope they will. I am not one who is
0:20:17 > 0:20:21going to spend my Ho, called I'm telling you that Mr Corbyn will
0:20:21 > 0:20:24never be prime minister. I think it might well be.Well, with respect, I
0:20:24 > 0:20:28did look at your past prognoses of Jeremy Corbyn, you said you didn't
0:20:28 > 0:20:32even think he would lead Labour into the last election. He said he is a
0:20:32 > 0:20:36decent person but I think you will have to stand down before the last
0:20:36 > 0:20:40election. Which you said before that election.I did, but I also say
0:20:40 > 0:20:46don't create a new party. The SDP was a great attempt. It is a truth
0:20:46 > 0:20:50that Jeremy Corbyn has shown more sensitivity to his critics from the
0:20:50 > 0:20:54right than Michael foot ever showed in 1981.What I associate you so
0:20:54 > 0:21:00much with the fight within Labour against so-called militant and
0:21:00 > 0:21:04left-leaning groups within the party, in the late 70s and early
0:21:04 > 0:21:0880s. You walked away, you were described as a traitor by so many in
0:21:08 > 0:21:14the Labour Party. And now, Corbyn, who has a an agenda of
0:21:14 > 0:21:18nationalisation, about out because he is very proud to be a socialist.
0:21:18 > 0:21:22You are saying I can sign up to that, I can even give money to it.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25Well, I think the last act of the Labour government under Gordon
0:21:25 > 0:21:30Brown, which was a sensible one, was in fact to nationalise part of the
0:21:30 > 0:21:34railways, when it had collapsed. That is the second David Gower new
0:21:34 > 0:21:38turn. You don't like the phrase, but you have change position on Europe
0:21:38 > 0:21:42from being pro- being in the EU to being very much being out of it, and
0:21:42 > 0:21:46in terms of socialism, and a pure left-wing ideology, he rebelled
0:21:46 > 0:21:51against it, and now you are for it. I never joined the Liberal Party. I
0:21:51 > 0:21:55stayed a social democrat all this time. I told you, I don't think
0:21:55 > 0:21:58currently the Labour Party is a Social Democratic party, that is why
0:21:58 > 0:22:03I have not joined it. But I am of the left. I am a passionate believer
0:22:03 > 0:22:07in the National health service. I believe that the creation of that
0:22:07 > 0:22:14was a great thing. I rejoice in the fact that my father didn't have too
0:22:14 > 0:22:18asked his patients to pay. So on social policy I have always been on
0:22:18 > 0:22:22the left. But I was, when I was leader of the SDP, and even before,
0:22:22 > 0:22:26I believe that we did have to change trade union laws. I believe that we
0:22:26 > 0:22:30did have to change the economy, and above all, I wanted strong defence,
0:22:30 > 0:22:35all of those were challenged by Michael Foot in 1981 to 1983, and it
0:22:35 > 0:22:40took 81... From the time we left, until 1997 before Labour one. Corbyn
0:22:40 > 0:22:44is getting closer to it, and as I said to you, he has attracted young
0:22:44 > 0:22:48people. He has got an increased membership. You can't take this away
0:22:48 > 0:22:54from him.If you had your time over again, would you now think
0:22:54 > 0:22:58differently about leaving the Labour Party? Would you have stayed in?
0:22:58 > 0:23:02Well, you studied these things, you know perfectly well I was totally
0:23:02 > 0:23:05opposed to the new SDP linking up with the Liberal Party within weeks
0:23:05 > 0:23:09and months of joining. I thought that was a great mistake. We were a
0:23:09 > 0:23:13new party and we should have stood on our own ground. And I did not
0:23:13 > 0:23:17expect when I joined the SDP, and helped to make it a success, but I
0:23:17 > 0:23:22would spend a lot of time arguing are you or are you not a liberal? I
0:23:22 > 0:23:26was not a liberal. I remain a social democrat, and that means I have to
0:23:26 > 0:23:30give the Labour Party might help where I can, my criticism where I
0:23:30 > 0:23:34think it is just, but overall, I am on the left in British politics, and
0:23:34 > 0:23:38I have never shifted that position. We have two MBA, but thank you very
0:23:38 > 0:23:47much for being on HARDtalk.Thank you.-- we have the end there.