0:00:04 > 0:00:08Coming up on BBC World News, HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15Donald Trump broke with long established diplomatic convention
0:00:15 > 0:00:21by recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24His recent tweets on the Israeli - Palestinian conflict have
0:00:24 > 0:00:27been music to the ears of Israeli Prime Minister
0:00:27 > 0:00:29Benjamin Netanyahu.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33So what do the Palestinians do now?
0:00:33 > 0:00:37My guest today is Mahmoud Zahar, co-founder of the Islamist movement
0:00:37 > 0:00:40Hamas, which controls Gaza and has been at loggerheads
0:00:40 > 0:00:43with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank for more
0:00:43 > 0:00:46than a decade.
0:00:46 > 0:00:55Are the Palestinians staring defeat in the face?
0:01:18 > 0:01:19Mahmoud Zahar in Gaza, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:19 > 0:01:25Most welcome.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28I have to begin by asking you about your frame of mind,
0:01:29 > 0:01:33your spirit at the beginning of this New Year, 2018.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36I look at the diplomatic, the political and the economic
0:01:36 > 0:01:39situation in Gaza and I can barely imagine anything more bleak.
0:01:39 > 0:01:46Is that the way you feel too?
0:01:46 > 0:01:50First of all, I'd like to address that this is one of the most
0:01:50 > 0:01:54important points in our history.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56Yes, our life is very miserable, not because of bad
0:01:56 > 0:01:59management from our side but because of the crime committed
0:01:59 > 0:02:07by the Israeli occupation and by the cooperation
0:02:07 > 0:02:10of the Palestinian Authority with them, and lastly by the impact
0:02:10 > 0:02:16of the international community represented mainly by Mr Trump
0:02:16 > 0:02:18against our human rights in the most important shrine
0:02:19 > 0:02:20in Islam, al-Aqsa mosque.
0:02:20 > 0:02:22So, the siege for a long time destroyed our medical,
0:02:22 > 0:02:24our social, economical, life and nobody is interested
0:02:25 > 0:02:27about human rights where 2 million Palestinian people are living
0:02:27 > 0:02:34in this area.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38Add to that a miserable life in the West Bank in addition
0:02:38 > 0:02:43to the very distressed life in the refugee camps outside
0:02:43 > 0:02:48Palestine, whether Jordan, especially in Lebanon and Syria.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51For this reason, I think it is a big crime against
0:02:51 > 0:03:04the Palestinian human rights.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07Well, you have packed in a lot of different complaints
0:03:07 > 0:03:09into that first answer.
0:03:09 > 0:03:15I want to unpick it if I make because I want to take a lot
0:03:15 > 0:03:17of it very seriously.
0:03:17 > 0:03:19Let's start with what he characterised as the maligned
0:03:19 > 0:03:20international diplomatic intervention.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23You named Donald Trump.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26Donald Trump of course has now said quite clearly that America
0:03:26 > 0:03:29recognises Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31This was the response of your leader, Hamas
0:03:31 > 0:03:33leader Ismail Haniyeh, who said Trump's decision
0:03:33 > 0:03:37is, "No less dangerous than the Balfour declaration.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40We will not allow it to pass.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43We will not allow Trump's declaration to pass even if we lose
0:03:43 > 0:03:48our heads in the process."
0:03:48 > 0:03:51That kind of rhetoric is fine but what are Palestinian people
0:03:51 > 0:03:55supposed to make of it?
0:03:55 > 0:03:58Because frankly, you look completely helpless in the face
0:03:58 > 0:04:00of Mr Trump's decision?
0:04:00 > 0:04:08I think I disagree with you.
0:04:08 > 0:04:12We are living under occupation for many years, since 1948,
0:04:12 > 0:04:14by what is now called Israel.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18And after that, in 1967.
0:04:18 > 0:04:21But lastly by our method of self resistance, self defence
0:04:21 > 0:04:24against the occupation in Gaza, we succeeded to eliminate
0:04:25 > 0:04:28the occupation in Gaza.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31But because of the cooperation between the Palestinian Authority
0:04:31 > 0:04:36which is a big crime actually, with the Israeli security sections,
0:04:36 > 0:04:43they succeed to prevent the intifada in the West Bank and Jerusalem.
0:04:43 > 0:04:47But I would remind you about what happened when the Israelis
0:04:47 > 0:04:53decided to make what is called the electronic channels.
0:04:53 > 0:04:55The disarmed people demonstrated and they succeeded to protect
0:04:55 > 0:05:00the Al-Aqsa Mosque.
0:05:00 > 0:05:08Mr Zahar, if I may interrupt you, you say that you will respond
0:05:08 > 0:05:16and you've responded in the past, the truth is, since that
0:05:16 > 0:05:18decision taken by Trump in December on Jerusalem,
0:05:18 > 0:05:23we have seen a dozen or so rockets fired from Gaza towards Israel.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26The Israelis have responded by targeting weapons dumps.
0:05:26 > 0:05:30The truth is, everything that you talk about in terms of violent
0:05:30 > 0:05:33military resistance plays into Israel's hands?
0:05:33 > 0:05:38It allows them to characterise route yet again as terrorists,
0:05:38 > 0:05:43out to kill Israeli citizens.
0:05:43 > 0:05:44-- characterise you.
0:05:44 > 0:05:54What is the use of that in the current climate?
0:05:54 > 0:05:56First of all, these are settlers.
0:05:56 > 0:05:59These people left their homeland, from America, from Russia, and came.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02For this reason, we are against foreign people taking our land,
0:06:02 > 0:06:04violated our rights.
0:06:04 > 0:06:16And I'm not speaking here about the rockets.
0:06:16 > 0:06:19I'm speaking about the people in the West Bank having their right
0:06:19 > 0:06:21to defend themselves by all means.
0:06:21 > 0:06:24We started by throwing stones, using knives and lastly at the time
0:06:24 > 0:06:25used guns against the Israelis.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28We have to defend ourselves by all means in the West Bank,
0:06:29 > 0:06:31in order to avoid the expansion of the settlement not
0:06:31 > 0:06:34only on Jerusalem but on the rest of the West Bank.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37But with the language you are using, Mr Zahar, you are simply
0:06:38 > 0:06:38making things worse.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Donald Trump in recent days, having taken the decision
0:06:41 > 0:06:43on Jerusalem, has been tweeting about you and the Palestinian
0:06:44 > 0:06:48movement generally.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51He says, "With the Palestinians no longer willing to talk peace,
0:06:51 > 0:06:54why should we make hundreds of millions of dollars a year
0:06:54 > 0:07:01of payments to them and get no appreciation of respect?"
0:07:01 > 0:07:04So the stance that you are taking is going to cost you,
0:07:04 > 0:07:08and more particularly the Palestinian people,
0:07:08 > 0:07:10very dear.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13If the US cuts off the funding it gives to the UN
0:07:13 > 0:07:15Relief and Works Agency which looks after you Palestinian
0:07:15 > 0:07:19refugees in the camps, the situation in Gaza is going to go
0:07:19 > 0:07:24from dire to absolutely intolerable?
0:07:24 > 0:07:25This language, we are not understanding well.
0:07:26 > 0:07:26Why?
0:07:26 > 0:07:33Because our land, our homeland, our holy places have no price.
0:07:33 > 0:07:42It is our religion, it is our faith and it is our
0:07:42 > 0:07:44spirits, it is our future.
0:07:44 > 0:07:45So this language can be addressed.
0:07:46 > 0:07:50We actually advise them, don't play with America
0:07:50 > 0:07:53and what is called the international community by this language,
0:07:53 > 0:07:56because they are going to make pressure and at that time,
0:07:56 > 0:07:59you're going to yield, you are going to do denounce your
0:07:59 > 0:08:03rights in your homeland.
0:08:03 > 0:08:08That's all very well, Mr Zahar, but what do you say
0:08:08 > 0:08:11to the Palestinians who rely on money coming from the US
0:08:11 > 0:08:12to keep them alive?
0:08:12 > 0:08:15That is those who take funding, food and material support from UNRRA,
0:08:15 > 0:08:18an agency which is mostly funded by American money, at least
0:08:18 > 0:08:22the biggest funder is America.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25This language should be differentiated between the UNRRA
0:08:25 > 0:08:27which is treating the crimes committed against our
0:08:27 > 0:08:31people in 1948.
0:08:31 > 0:08:36And speaking about the Palestinian Authority since the agreement.
0:08:37 > 0:08:38When they believed that, with cooperation including
0:08:38 > 0:08:42the security co-operation with the enemy of the Palestinian
0:08:42 > 0:08:45people, they believe that they are going to achieve
0:08:45 > 0:08:52a West Bank, Gaza government and their homeland all
0:08:52 > 0:08:56what is called a state.
0:08:56 > 0:09:11We advised them at that time, and we told them
0:09:12 > 0:09:13it will be a big zero.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16Now we are not getting benefits or even we are getting
0:09:16 > 0:09:19benefits from the money, but we can't actually denounce our
0:09:19 > 0:09:22rights in the holy place, the most important shrine in Islam
0:09:22 > 0:09:25which is the Al-Aqsa Mosque because of the American money,
0:09:25 > 0:09:26because of the donation.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29If I may say so, you've spent most of this interview so far criticising
0:09:29 > 0:09:31the Palestinian Authority for its relationship with
0:09:31 > 0:09:33the United States over many years.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35But I'm a little confused.
0:09:35 > 0:09:40You in Hamas, as of October 2017, just a few months ago,
0:09:40 > 0:09:45are committed to a reconciliation agreement with Fatah which is
0:09:45 > 0:09:56supposed to lead to reunification of the administration in Gaza
0:09:56 > 0:10:00and supposed to see Fatah and PA, Palestinian Authority forces take
0:10:00 > 0:10:01security control in Gaza.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04Are you suggesting to me that that deal is now completely off?
0:10:04 > 0:10:08First of all, I'd like to address that it's not a reconciliation.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10This is a misleading name, actually.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13We in Cairo in 2011, agreed to have a deal,
0:10:13 > 0:10:19an agreement in Cairo.
0:10:19 > 0:10:24This agreement includes the most important point,
0:10:24 > 0:10:28to run elections for the Minister level, for the legislative
0:10:28 > 0:10:33council level and for the National Council level.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36And we are sure that we are going to win this election.
0:10:36 > 0:10:40At that time, we are going to change the attitude of this authority.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43From cooperating with Israel to the degree as we did
0:10:43 > 0:10:47with Israelis in 2005.
0:10:47 > 0:10:52We don't have time for long history lessons but the bottom line is,
0:10:52 > 0:10:54just a few months ago, you are prepared to talk
0:10:54 > 0:10:59about a deal with Fatah and Fatah insisted part of that deal was that
0:10:59 > 0:11:05you would accept Palestinian Authority security control in Gaza
0:11:05 > 0:11:07and Hamas would ultimately have to give up its weapons.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10Are you prepared, in Hamas, as part of a national deal,
0:11:10 > 0:11:17to give up your weapons?
0:11:17 > 0:11:20Again, it's not a national deal, it's between Fatah and other
0:11:20 > 0:11:23Palestinian factions.
0:11:23 > 0:11:31But the Palestinian people in the refugee camps,
0:11:31 > 0:11:33and more 6 million people outside, has not shared it.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36I'm speaking about what is the substantial goal of this deal
0:11:36 > 0:11:38you describe in the last few months.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41It's not a reconciliation.
0:11:41 > 0:11:46It was implementation of the agreement in Cairo 2011,
0:11:46 > 0:11:50this is the most important, the substantial elements in this
0:11:50 > 0:11:53agreement is to run elections.
0:11:53 > 0:11:58Not to be controlled by Fatah or to accept the attitude
0:11:58 > 0:12:01or political attitudes of Fatah concerning the Israeli
0:12:01 > 0:12:03issues or the other.
0:12:04 > 0:12:10So our agreement is to implement what had been agreed in Cairo.
0:12:10 > 0:12:15The bottom line is you are not prepared, are you, to give
0:12:15 > 0:12:20up your weapons based control of the Gaza strip and your continued
0:12:20 > 0:12:24determination to fire rockets into Israel,
0:12:24 > 0:12:31to dig tunnels under your territory into Israeli territory in order
0:12:31 > 0:12:33to conduct terrorist operations inside Israel,
0:12:33 > 0:12:37you're not prepared to give up any of that and as a result,
0:12:37 > 0:12:40Fatah and the PA continue to put sanctions on the Gaza Strip
0:12:40 > 0:12:42including blocking the payment of power supplies.
0:12:42 > 0:12:52Your policy is damaging your own people?
0:12:53 > 0:12:55I'm sorry to hear that from your side.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58This is the language of Israel.
0:12:58 > 0:13:00We are not terrorists and we are not launching rockets
0:13:00 > 0:13:01against Israel randomly.
0:13:01 > 0:13:06We are defending ourselves against the fifth, the Phantom 35,
0:13:06 > 0:13:09the most sophisticated weapons belonging to the Israelis
0:13:10 > 0:13:15destroyed our infrastructure, destroyed our people.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18Personally, I was a target many times by Israel.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22They killed two sons of mine.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25One of them was getting a Masters degree from
0:13:25 > 0:13:28Salford University, Manchester.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31So you are not speaking about the crimes of Israel
0:13:31 > 0:13:35against our people about the sanctions, about destroying our
0:13:35 > 0:13:43infrastructure basis and you are resisting to describe...
0:13:43 > 0:13:43Hang on...
0:13:43 > 0:13:45Let me continue my answer.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48You are speaking as though we are launching rockets
0:13:48 > 0:13:49against Israel as terrorists.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52We are not terrorists, we are freedom fighters.
0:13:52 > 0:13:57We are occupied by foreigners, dismissed all through your history.
0:13:57 > 0:14:02You as European people, and the Americans, particularly
0:14:02 > 0:14:04European people, are responsible about the disaster of Jews,
0:14:04 > 0:14:11100 times when you destroyed the existence of the Jews
0:14:11 > 0:14:14in your countries and dismissed these people to our people
0:14:14 > 0:14:17as a part of the occupation.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21Hang on, Mr Zahar, I want to ask you a serious question.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25I know your personal history, I first met you on a South Lebanese
0:14:25 > 0:14:27hillside when you've been deported by the Israelis back
0:14:27 > 0:14:31in the early 1990s.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34I know your own story including that of your family.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36But I put this to you.
0:14:36 > 0:14:42When you tell me that you are conducting this struggle,
0:14:42 > 0:14:45I say to you, the UN envoy to your conflict with Israel,
0:14:45 > 0:14:48a UN envoy called Nikolay Mladenov, he said recently, that
0:14:48 > 0:14:50the Palestinians need to focus on addressing the humanitarian needs
0:14:50 > 0:14:53of their people in Gaza, not on building tunnels and spending
0:14:53 > 0:15:06money on rockets which they intend to fire into Israel.
0:15:06 > 0:15:12Why do you not put the humanitarian needs of your own people first?
0:15:12 > 0:15:15Do you believe that your capital can be occupied
0:15:15 > 0:15:22by foreigners and the price will be humanitarian aid?
0:15:22 > 0:15:24Humanitarian aid is our right, whether we are in fighting
0:15:24 > 0:15:30as freedom fighters or living in prison.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32We are here speaking about national interest.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34Our interest is our land.
0:15:34 > 0:15:35Our land was occupied in 1948.
0:15:35 > 0:15:45Our interests is our holy place.
0:15:45 > 0:15:47Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is the most important shrine in Islam,
0:15:48 > 0:15:51not only for Hamas but for every Muslim, even the British Muslim.
0:15:51 > 0:16:02So we are speaking about the national interest,
0:16:02 > 0:16:05not as a beggar looking for money from their area
0:16:05 > 0:16:05from
0:16:05 > 0:16:06Mladenov or the other one.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09We are an occupied area, we have to achieve sovereignty.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12I am asking a simple question, what moral principle justifies
0:16:12 > 0:16:15Netanyahu to come from America while his father is still there,
0:16:15 > 0:16:18and to occupy our land?
0:16:19 > 0:16:19What justifies Lieberman...
0:16:19 > 0:16:21I guess what I'm asking...
0:16:21 > 0:16:22To be in our land?
0:16:22 > 0:16:25I guess what I'm asking is for you to reflect
0:16:25 > 0:16:26on today's reality.
0:16:26 > 0:16:32To be honest, a lot of the message you're giving me, I've heard many
0:16:32 > 0:16:34times over many years from you and fellow
0:16:34 > 0:16:35leaders of Hamas.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38I'm just wondering whether you are prepared to accept that the current
0:16:38 > 0:16:44situation might need some fresh thinking on your part?
0:16:44 > 0:16:46Because if you look at what is happening,
0:16:46 > 0:16:49if you look at the way in which Donald Trump has broken
0:16:49 > 0:16:51with diplomatic convention and change this situation,
0:16:51 > 0:16:55the dynamic in the Middle East conflict.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58And if you also look at what's happening in Israel today
0:16:58 > 0:17:01with Netanyahu appearing to see a green light for new measures,
0:17:01 > 0:17:04for example the Likud party approving the policy of annexing
0:17:04 > 0:17:09Jewish settlements in the West Bank.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12A new Jerusalem bill which basically makes it almost impossible
0:17:12 > 0:17:14to imagine the Knesset ever ceding territory to the Palestinians
0:17:14 > 0:17:18in Jerusalem as part of a peace process.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21If you take all of these things together, it seems to me
0:17:21 > 0:17:24you are in a more negative, difficult diplomatic place then
0:17:24 > 0:17:25you've ever been in before?
0:17:25 > 0:17:30And I wonder whether you now have to develop a new strategy?
0:17:30 > 0:17:32OK, OK.
0:17:32 > 0:17:34We are not believing in these diplomatic changes.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36We are not depending on diplomacy of the enemy
0:17:37 > 0:17:42of the Palestinian people.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45You are speaking all the time about what was the attitude
0:17:45 > 0:17:50of the international community?
0:17:50 > 0:17:54What was the result of the voting order in the Security Council
0:17:54 > 0:17:55or in the General Assembly?
0:17:55 > 0:17:59What happened?
0:17:59 > 0:18:01Netanyahu is supported by the American president,
0:18:01 > 0:18:16but the majority of the world are against them.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20This cannot be an argument to convince us to denounce our rights.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22This argument should be for the Palestinian Authority
0:18:22 > 0:18:26when they believe in what is called the peace process.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29We practiced, as a Palestinian people, all the peaceful methods
0:18:29 > 0:18:32in order to achieve our right as a homeland and now,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35we see no square metre for the Palestinians except Gaza,
0:18:35 > 0:18:38liberated by armed resistance.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40If I may, Mr Zahar...
0:18:41 > 0:18:45I'm sorry, I should continue.
0:18:45 > 0:18:50We are insisting to defend ourselves by all means,
0:18:50 > 0:18:54including the armed resistance and the people are believing
0:18:54 > 0:18:57what you are addressing as the international community,
0:18:57 > 0:19:01money and the aggression of the settlers and Netanyahu
0:19:01 > 0:19:09policies and Trump policies, this will not actually change.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13People are admiring to sacrifice in order to achieve the homeland.
0:19:13 > 0:19:18If I may say something, today, in this interview,
0:19:18 > 0:19:19you have sounded very combative.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23You have sounded like Hamas has sounded for many years.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26But I would just say to you, in May of 2017, your movement came
0:19:26 > 0:19:30out with a new policy document for the first time, you, in Hamas,
0:19:30 > 0:19:33said you would accept a solution which gave the Palestinians a state
0:19:33 > 0:19:41on the 1967 lines.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44And it looked as though, with a new leader, Mr Haniyeh
0:19:44 > 0:19:48in place, it looked as though Hamas was beginning to search for a way
0:19:48 > 0:19:54to play a role in the peace process.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56To become, if I may say so, more moderate.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58Have you walked away from that now?
0:19:58 > 0:20:03Are you not interested in being more moderate any more?
0:20:03 > 0:20:06I'm sorry to understand from you, because we are speaking
0:20:06 > 0:20:08about establishment of an independent state in the area
0:20:08 > 0:20:11of the occupied 1967.
0:20:11 > 0:20:15But this is the continuation of argument.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18But we are not going to denounce a square metre of our land
0:20:18 > 0:20:21which is Palestine.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24So you still want to destroy Israel, is that it?
0:20:24 > 0:20:26You still want to destroy the state of Israel?
0:20:26 > 0:20:29It is not a matter of destroying Israel, it is a matter
0:20:29 > 0:20:32of liberation of our land, occupied by foreigners.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35If you think all of that land from the Mediterranean
0:20:35 > 0:20:38to the Jordan River is yours, then that is the destruction
0:20:38 > 0:20:40of the state of Israel.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43This is Palestine, occupied 1948.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46It was occupied in 1948 by the support and blood
0:20:46 > 0:20:47by the British occupation.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50For this reason, we are going to achieve our rights
0:20:50 > 0:21:01in the whole of Palestine.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04Mr Zahar I want to end just reflecting a little bit
0:21:04 > 0:21:06on the case of Ahed Tamimi, the 16-year-old Palestinian girl
0:21:07 > 0:21:09from the West Bank village who was videotaped confronting
0:21:09 > 0:21:12an Israeli soldier, slapping him and kicking him because she believed
0:21:12 > 0:21:15he had been responsible for violence against fellow villagers including
0:21:15 > 0:21:20members of their family.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22The video has gone viral, Palestinians now seem
0:21:22 > 0:21:24to regard her as a hero of sorts.
0:21:24 > 0:21:28And this is what Diana Buttu, my former Palestinian
0:21:28 > 0:21:31Authority adviser said.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34She said, "Perhaps the reason that Israel sees the Tamimis as a threat,
0:21:34 > 0:21:37and the 16-year-old is in detention, is because she and the family
0:21:37 > 0:21:40represents what the current Palestinian leadership is not.
0:21:40 > 0:21:46That is defiant, active and unwilling to remain silent."
0:21:46 > 0:21:50Is the resistance in Palestine now in the hands of ordinary people,
0:21:50 > 0:21:57young people particularly, not with veteran leaders like you?
0:21:57 > 0:22:04First of all, the Tamimi family are not members of Hamas.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07But this is the attitude of every Muslim everywhere.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10Whether they are in Palestine, occupied 1948, or occupied 1967.
0:22:10 > 0:22:11The Tamimi family are resisting themselves,
0:22:11 > 0:22:24they are resisting their right in Palestine, in holy places.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27This is a very symbolic manner.
0:22:27 > 0:22:30We are almost out of time but the key is whether you regard
0:22:30 > 0:22:33that resistance is having to be violent or whether it can simply
0:22:33 > 0:22:34be civil disobedience.
0:22:34 > 0:22:41Which is it?
0:22:41 > 0:22:42We practice all methods.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45Since the occupation, we practice civil defence.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48Self defence.
0:22:48 > 0:22:54In the first intifada, we first thought we'd distributed
0:22:54 > 0:22:56leaflets and the result was more Israeli aggression
0:22:56 > 0:22:58from the occupation, to the degree of arresting thousands
0:22:58 > 0:23:07and thousands in the Israeli camp.
0:23:07 > 0:23:10And the people were forced at that time to use violence,
0:23:10 > 0:23:13throwing stones, and after that, using knives, and after that,
0:23:13 > 0:23:20when they had succeeded to have guns, they used guns.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22And by these guns, Israel escaped from Gaza, so this
0:23:22 > 0:23:25is actually very symbolic.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27Because failure of the peaceful demonstrations, against the Israeli
0:23:27 > 0:23:30occupation, against the Israeli aggression against the is American
0:23:30 > 0:23:39aggression, will force the Palestinian people,
0:23:39 > 0:23:41including families like the Tamimi family,
0:23:41 > 0:23:44in order to make self defence, by using what he
0:23:44 > 0:23:45describe as violence.
0:23:45 > 0:23:52This is not violence.
0:23:52 > 0:23:53All right...
0:23:53 > 0:23:56This is one of the methods to have self defence.
0:23:56 > 0:23:58Mr Zahar, we have the end there.
0:23:58 > 0:24:25I thank you very much indeed for joining me from Gaza.