0:00:00 > 0:00:02on Tuesday night.
0:00:02 > 0:00:14Now on BBC News: HARDtalk.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.
0:00:16 > 0:00:19The removal of Robert Mugabe as president of Zimbabwe in November
0:00:19 > 0:00:26led to several Mugabe loyalists going underground.
0:00:26 > 0:00:30The most prominent of these is probably Jonathan Moyo.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33Until recently, a cabinet minister, key ally and close adviser
0:00:33 > 0:00:35to Robert Mugabe and his wife, Grace.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38He has been described as one of the most hated men
0:00:38 > 0:00:46in Zimbabwe, and is wanted in the country on corruption charges.
0:00:46 > 0:00:48Jonathan Moyo is now in hiding in self-imposed exile,
0:00:48 > 0:00:51and says his family is being harassed, and that his
0:00:51 > 0:00:53life is under threat.
0:00:54 > 0:00:58We cannot disclose his location, at his request. This is his first
0:00:58 > 0:01:03interview since his ousting of President Mugabe.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07What has he got to say for himself?
0:01:23 > 0:01:28Jonathan Moyo, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:28 > 0:01:34Why have you gone into hiding, and not wish to disclose your
0:01:34 > 0:01:37whereabouts?It is because of the extraordinary situation that exists
0:01:37 > 0:01:44in Zimbabwe following the unconstitutional overthrow of the
0:01:44 > 0:01:48government in a military coup that took place on 15 November. And on
0:01:48 > 0:01:56that day the military specifically targeted my house and myself with a
0:01:56 > 0:02:01clear intention to cause harm, and that is why I am not in the country,
0:02:01 > 0:02:09although I left the country legally. I am not at liberty to disclose my
0:02:09 > 0:02:12whereabouts, because they have shown a very clear and determined
0:02:12 > 0:02:18intention to find me and harm me wherever I am.You have talked about
0:02:18 > 0:02:25worries about your life, and threats and harassment, and so on. What is
0:02:25 > 0:02:30the evidence for that?It is Common Cause in Zimbabwe. I have even put
0:02:30 > 0:02:38that evidence on my Twitter feed. On the morning of 15 November, around
0:02:38 > 0:02:482:30am Zimbabwean time, between 15 to 25 heavily armed SAS soldiers
0:02:48 > 0:02:54came to my residence, and they destroyed the gate, destroyed the
0:02:54 > 0:03:00entrance, the door to my house, and shot their way into every room
0:03:00 > 0:03:06looking for me. But fortunately they did not find me, and none of the
0:03:06 > 0:03:11members of my family were there, because I had been forewarned the
0:03:11 > 0:03:18previous night that the military were going to raid my house, and I
0:03:18 > 0:03:26was advised by a very close friend that I should not spend the night at
0:03:26 > 0:03:33my house, and that I should take every member of my family with me
0:03:33 > 0:03:39out of the house, and the evidence, physical evidence, of what then
0:03:39 > 0:03:45happened to my house, has been there for anybody to see.All right, so
0:03:45 > 0:03:51where did you go then? Where did you go? Reports are that you went with
0:03:51 > 0:03:54your family to Robert Mugabe's mansion, and that they were allowed
0:03:54 > 0:03:59to stay, but you refuse? Is that what happened?That is false. The
0:03:59 > 0:04:05military people who wanted to harm me on the night of the coup don't
0:04:05 > 0:04:12actually know what happened, and they have been peddling falsehoods
0:04:12 > 0:04:17about these occurrences. What I would say, without putting in
0:04:17 > 0:04:20jeopardy many of God's people who were very kind to give me
0:04:20 > 0:04:29assistance, is that it is true that I took my family with me on the
0:04:29 > 0:04:39night of 14 November to my colleague's residents, and my
0:04:39 > 0:04:47colleague being the then Minister of local government. And the amazing
0:04:47 > 0:04:53fact is that his house was also attacked about the same time when my
0:04:53 > 0:04:59house was being attacked. When I was there with my family, it was him and
0:04:59 > 0:05:10his family, and altogether there were 11 of us at his residence when
0:05:10 > 0:05:19the residence was attacked.All right, so that's where you went. We
0:05:19 > 0:05:24know that he and you are one of the most wanted men from Zimbabwe, and
0:05:24 > 0:05:30in fact the former Finance Minister is in prison. How did you manage to
0:05:30 > 0:05:34escape Zimbabwe? You say you left legally, but on the other hand you
0:05:34 > 0:05:37have just described how the army and the authorities were coming after
0:05:37 > 0:05:49you.Yes, when they came to attack Saviour Kasukuwere's house at about
0:05:49 > 0:05:592:30am on 15 November, they subjected it to some 15 minutes of
0:05:59 > 0:06:07gunfire, and amazingly, after those 15 minutes, and they surrounded the
0:06:07 > 0:06:15house, the sound of gunfire just went silent. And we waited therefore
0:06:15 > 0:06:22I think something like ten minutes, and there was no movement or sign of
0:06:22 > 0:06:28any presence of these Special Forces that had surrounded the house, and
0:06:28 > 0:06:35shot at it from every angle. And we then managed to get out of the
0:06:35 > 0:06:44house, and we were amazed that they were no longer there. They probably
0:06:44 > 0:06:47believed that they...So how did you leave the country? You have
0:06:47 > 0:06:51explained how the army attacked both your house and Saviour Kasukuwere's
0:06:51 > 0:06:54house, but how did you actually leave Zimbabwe? On the other
0:06:54 > 0:06:58question I asked you is, why do you now fear for your life since you
0:06:58 > 0:07:01have left the country? Are you receiving more death threats where
0:07:01 > 0:07:11you are? And how did you leave the country?I left Zimbabwean with the
0:07:11 > 0:07:20help of people who to me are angels, because they saved lives. And I am
0:07:20 > 0:07:27not at liberty to say who helped me, how they helped me, and how I left
0:07:27 > 0:07:34Zimbabwe, except to say I left Zimbabwe when President Mugabe was
0:07:34 > 0:07:39the president of the country, and I left with the assistance of these
0:07:39 > 0:07:46people, legally. Legally. I left the country legally. I managed to escape
0:07:46 > 0:07:57the net of the military people, and to be where I am, legally.So... But
0:07:57 > 0:08:01do you not think that, as I said, you know, you have got the new
0:08:01 > 0:08:04Zimbabwean government saying they have got into bowl, they want
0:08:04 > 0:08:10Interpol to help them locate you, and a couple of others, the most
0:08:10 > 0:08:15wanted, some say most hated man in Zimbabwe, because you were of course
0:08:15 > 0:08:19very, very close to Robert Mugabe. It is going to be a matter of time,
0:08:19 > 0:08:25isn't it, before you are returned to the country?Well, fortunately there
0:08:25 > 0:08:30is something called International Law. I want to make clear that, when
0:08:30 > 0:08:36I left Zimbabwe, there was no warrant of arrest against me. And
0:08:36 > 0:08:43there was only a death warrant, and we have incontrovertible evidence,
0:08:43 > 0:08:53in black and white, documentation that shows what the intention of the
0:08:53 > 0:09:01joint in Harare was, with respect to my security and that of my
0:09:01 > 0:09:05colleagues -- junta. They have, since the coup, started framing all
0:09:05 > 0:09:11sorts of political charges in the guise of terminal charges. They say
0:09:11 > 0:09:16they were targeting the so-called criminal people, criminals
0:09:16 > 0:09:22surrounding President Mugabe. But we now know that they were talking
0:09:22 > 0:09:26about political criminals. They have not come up with any crimes that
0:09:26 > 0:09:33rise to the level of charges that would warrant the interest or
0:09:33 > 0:09:38attention of Interpol. These are people in pursuit of a political
0:09:38 > 0:09:41agenda. They believe that we committed political crimes by
0:09:41 > 0:09:46supporting President Mugabe and not supporting them. So this is a very
0:09:46 > 0:09:50strange and unique definition of criminals, only applicable to
0:09:50 > 0:09:54Zimbabwe. But I repeat, there is international law. Yes, everything
0:09:54 > 0:09:59will finally...There is also Zimbabwean law, and the government
0:09:59 > 0:10:04has said it wants the president, he wants to track $2 billion of state
0:10:04 > 0:10:08funds that have disappeared through corruption and the reports suggest
0:10:08 > 0:10:15that you are wanted for allegedly stealing assets, under the systemic
0:10:15 > 0:10:22corruption that we know existed under the Mugabe years.There is no
0:10:22 > 0:10:25such evidence they put anywhere. They are going after people who they
0:10:25 > 0:10:32allege were holding beans, rice... You are one of those. You are one of
0:10:32 > 0:10:36the people they say was involved in systemic corruption. Let me just
0:10:36 > 0:10:41tell you what a political analyst and former party member has said. He
0:10:41 > 0:10:45talks about the new government's delicate handling of the old man,
0:10:45 > 0:10:50Robert Mugabe, but they will make an example of grace Mugabe, and some
0:10:50 > 0:10:55others around her, even though the corruption goes much bigger. You
0:10:55 > 0:11:00were one of Grace Mugabe's key allies, part of the so-called G 40
0:11:00 > 0:11:04faction which was trying to manoeuvre her as successor to Robert
0:11:04 > 0:11:08Mugabe, so you are really top of the list when it comes to the people who
0:11:08 > 0:11:13are wanted for this alleged corruption.First of all, it is not
0:11:13 > 0:11:19corrupt to support particular politician to become any
0:11:19 > 0:11:27officeholder, whether it is vice president, resident. It can't be a
0:11:27 > 0:11:31crime in a constitutional democracy. It is false to allege that there was
0:11:31 > 0:11:38an attempt to elevate Doctor Grace Mugabe, the former first Lady. What
0:11:38 > 0:11:43is really going on here is that there is a group of people that sees
0:11:43 > 0:11:56itself as the stockholders of Zimbabwe. And this group is led by
0:11:56 > 0:12:00Mnangagwa, who is now president, but the control of this group is the
0:12:00 > 0:12:04general who was the vice president now. But he is vice president
0:12:04 > 0:12:08because of a military coup. He has not been voted into that offers. If
0:12:08 > 0:12:14you grant power by force, you then must find excuses to justify that
0:12:14 > 0:12:20ground. And this is what they are doing.You are questioning
0:12:20 > 0:12:24Mnangagwa, the new president. World reaction has by and large welcomed
0:12:24 > 0:12:32him. Rex Tillerson, the US Secretary of State, Zimbabwe has an
0:12:32 > 0:12:38opportunity to put itself on a new path. Boris Johnson, Mnangagwa...
0:12:38 > 0:12:41And Angela Merkel, Germany will support you as a partner in your
0:12:41 > 0:12:45endeavours to start a new chapter in the history of Zimbabwe. That is the
0:12:45 > 0:12:48reality you are facing now. You can criticise what has happened as much
0:12:48 > 0:12:52as you like, but that is what the world as saying. It has accepted
0:12:52 > 0:12:57this.Yes, it is not the world which chooses the leaders of Zimbabwe.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01Zimbabwe has a constitution, and Mnangagwa and his partner know only
0:13:01 > 0:13:08too well that they have come into power via the Bullet, and not the
0:13:08 > 0:13:12ballot. The Constitution of Zimbabwe requires people to come into power
0:13:12 > 0:13:19via the ballot.There will be elections in 2018, this year.The
0:13:19 > 0:13:22people of Zimbabwe will decide. If the world wants to be at odds with
0:13:22 > 0:13:27the popular will of the people of Zimbabwe, that is up to them. We can
0:13:27 > 0:13:33only be concerned about the Republic of Zimbabwe, the views of the people
0:13:33 > 0:13:38of Zimbabwe, the international conspiracy that supports a
0:13:38 > 0:13:43dictatorship, that has come to power via the Bullet, is another story. It
0:13:43 > 0:13:47will not be experienced by the Zimbabweans for the first time.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51Well, he has promised free and fair elections in August this year.You
0:13:51 > 0:13:56can't hold free and fair elections. There has never been a single case
0:13:56 > 0:13:59of a government that has come to power via the Bullet.You have
0:13:59 > 0:14:03talked of conspiracy, but what is it you want? Because in one of your
0:14:03 > 0:14:07tweet since Mugabe lost power, is said to the new leadership in
0:14:07 > 0:14:11Zimbabwe, if you and your lot think that this will last, then you ain't
0:14:11 > 0:14:14seen nothing yet, come rain or shine. Are you plotting?
0:14:14 > 0:14:27No. Zimbabwe, in spite of this coup, Zeinab, it has come off age. We have
0:14:27 > 0:14:34a new constitution and this is constitution the people have made
0:14:34 > 0:14:40for themselves, and it has been broken, and it has been broken via a
0:14:40 > 0:14:44coup, and if people think Zimbabwe will embrace the coup and change
0:14:44 > 0:14:49leaders when they know the factors, because right now the Cabinet of the
0:14:49 > 0:14:55Republic Zimbabwe is by the most feared people in this country. They
0:14:55 > 0:15:01are feared because they are associated with every atrocity that
0:15:01 > 0:15:07has happened. The people of Zimbabwe cannot be expected to embrace the
0:15:07 > 0:15:12most feared individuals.What do you want, a return to the status quo, a
0:15:12 > 0:15:15return of Robert Mugabe and Grace Mugabe as his possible successor? Is
0:15:15 > 0:15:23that what you would like to see? Well, every thinking, right-thinking
0:15:23 > 0:15:27Zimbabwean would like to see the return of constitutionalism and
0:15:27 > 0:15:31legitimacy in Zimbabwe. It is not about any individual. It is about
0:15:31 > 0:15:38the rule of law. The Constitution of the country has been subverted. And
0:15:38 > 0:15:44there has to be a return to can stew Cheryl is. And we do not expect the
0:15:44 > 0:15:48same people who overthrew the Constitution to restore it. And
0:15:48 > 0:15:54there is a lot that gets set about Mugabe. I want to put on record that
0:15:54 > 0:16:00I for one am very, very happy, proud of the fact that I served with him
0:16:00 > 0:16:04and under him.And you backed Grace Mugabe, who is by and large not
0:16:04 > 0:16:09admired at all in the country. Are you happy, do you want to see her
0:16:09 > 0:16:15still having chances of getting into power?Zeinab, the fact that people,
0:16:15 > 0:16:19some people, who may in fact be a minority, have issues with Doctor
0:16:19 > 0:16:24Grace Mugabe does not mean it is a crime to support her. No one can
0:16:24 > 0:16:30sustain that view. It is only the people who decide who will lead them
0:16:30 > 0:16:35through an election. You do not prevent an election through a
0:16:35 > 0:16:39military coup, simply arguing that you do not like President Mugabe. It
0:16:39 > 0:16:46is unprofessional for an army to do that. The Zimbabwean army has joined
0:16:46 > 0:16:51the ranks of banana republics where military individuals intervene
0:16:51 > 0:16:56because they do not like individual, they lay that individual. They have
0:16:56 > 0:17:01reduced our country to a country of good guys versus bad guys.Have you
0:17:01 > 0:17:06spoken to Grace Mugabe?As far as I am concerned... Grace Mugabe was not
0:17:06 > 0:17:12only the First Lady, she was also the secretary for women's affairs in
0:17:12 > 0:17:18the ruling party, and that position, Zeinab, is a very serious position.
0:17:18 > 0:17:25And as a leader, a top leader in the party, she was entitled, one, to
0:17:25 > 0:17:29discharge the programme and, two, have her views as to who should
0:17:29 > 0:17:35occupy office. She was entitled to that. And in doing so...Have you
0:17:35 > 0:17:41spoken to her? She has not been seen. Have you spoken to her, or for
0:17:41 > 0:17:45that matter Robert Mugabe?No, I haven't, because of circumstances
0:17:45 > 0:17:52that have arisen. I look forward to doing so, specially speaking with
0:17:52 > 0:18:00President Mugabe, who is Zimbabwe's pastor, and unfortunately we are not
0:18:00 > 0:18:05Cubans because our politics have been influenced by our colonial
0:18:05 > 0:18:08relationship with the white settler economy and with Britain.You said
0:18:08 > 0:18:12you are proud of having served under Robert Mugabe. You have talked about
0:18:12 > 0:18:17his legacy. His legacy, for example, three quarters of Zimbabwe's
0:18:17 > 0:18:25population live on less than five dollars a day. One quarter under the
0:18:25 > 0:18:30age of five experience stunted growth. The Trade Union Congress in
0:18:30 > 0:18:35Zimbabwe says that there is 90% unemployment. I could go on and on.
0:18:35 > 0:18:40You are higher education minister. The fees for a term at a university
0:18:40 > 0:18:45in Zimbabwe is $1000 US per term. So it has become really something that
0:18:45 > 0:18:49only the privileged few can enjoy. That is just an example of the
0:18:49 > 0:18:54legacy that you talk about.No, that is not a legacy! That is what you
0:18:54 > 0:18:58are calling the legacy. You are identifying certain challenges that
0:18:58 > 0:19:02the Republic Zimbabwe has and you say that this is the legacy. No!
0:19:02 > 0:19:07That is a very strange definition of legacy. We accept, as we did even as
0:19:07 > 0:19:11we were in government, that there were challenges facing the country.
0:19:11 > 0:19:16We know what the reasons for some of those policy challenges are. But
0:19:16 > 0:19:22unfortunately the President put faith in the people who have now
0:19:22 > 0:19:29turned against him and who used his assignment of responsibility to in
0:19:29 > 0:19:34fact plot his downfall.What you are part of a government, as I said,
0:19:34 > 0:19:38which, this current government says now, you're part of this systemic
0:19:38 > 0:19:41corruption, we have heard press reports of your lavish home in
0:19:41 > 0:19:47Harare.My home is very modest in the neighbourhood. There is nothing
0:19:47 > 0:19:51extraordinary about it.It is described as lavish.I build that
0:19:51 > 0:19:55house when I was not in government. I worked very hard in order to get
0:19:55 > 0:19:59that house built. I am very proud. You people can create as many
0:19:59 > 0:20:04stories as they want. But the truth of the matter is you will not find a
0:20:04 > 0:20:09single case where I took a cent to build anything for myself almost
0:20:09 > 0:20:13family.Are you talking to an intermediary about your own future
0:20:13 > 0:20:18and whether you can make some kind of deal on unity from prosecution?
0:20:18 > 0:20:24You cannot discuss those issues with an illegal regime. And an illegal
0:20:24 > 0:20:30regime is one that comes into power against the Constitution in
0:20:30 > 0:20:34violation of the Constitution. That regime may be in effective control
0:20:34 > 0:20:39of the territory, but it is an illegal regime, it is an
0:20:39 > 0:20:42illegitimate regime. They kept saying they want to have elections
0:20:42 > 0:20:51in six months. We know that when Emmerson Mnangagwa went to Morgan 's
0:20:51 > 0:20:53house, the opposition leader in Zimbabwe, they pretended that they
0:20:53 > 0:20:58were concerned about his health and so forth but we know that they
0:20:58 > 0:21:04wanted to negotiate with him to postpone elections for at least
0:21:04 > 0:21:07three years. They are afraid of elections. They do not want to have
0:21:07 > 0:21:11free and fair elections let alone credible elections.What will you
0:21:11 > 0:21:15do, do you want immunity from prosecution, do you want to go back
0:21:15 > 0:21:22to Zimbabwe?We would... Every Zimbabwean who cares about the
0:21:22 > 0:21:26country would like to see a return to the constitutionalism. That is
0:21:26 > 0:21:32the fundamental. We must have the rule of law. The army deployed
0:21:32 > 0:21:36itself in Zimbabwe when the Constitution says only that
0:21:36 > 0:21:42President can deploy it. When you have people who have deployed
0:21:42 > 0:21:45themselves, taken over all the institutions of the state and
0:21:45 > 0:21:49government, you don't discuss immunity with them.But if you were
0:21:49 > 0:21:53to be offered it, would you go back, if you were to be fitted, Woody go
0:21:53 > 0:21:59back?When the offers you immunity, you would be a full to enter into
0:21:59 > 0:22:06what is called a frosty and Bagan? There are press reports that you
0:22:06 > 0:22:12asked the Kenyan authorities for a bargain and this was refused. Where
0:22:12 > 0:22:22would you go?-- Faustian bargain. These are falls reports. I want to
0:22:22 > 0:22:28tell you what you know. You can't have people become stateless just
0:22:28 > 0:22:32because some individuals have grabbed power in their home country.
0:22:32 > 0:22:38That is not international law. We do not live in the jungle any more. So
0:22:38 > 0:22:41these questions will resolve themselves in the fullness of time.
0:22:41 > 0:22:49So how is Jonathan Moyo going to live, forever a fugitive on the run?
0:22:49 > 0:22:52Where are you going to live, will you seek asylum?I want to remind
0:22:52 > 0:22:56you when I left Zimbabwe there was no warrant of arrest against me. I
0:22:56 > 0:23:02did not run away from any warrant of arrest. I ran away, if you want to
0:23:02 > 0:23:06use those terms, from a death warrant, and a lawful attack on my
0:23:06 > 0:23:13house by military people -- and an arm lawful attack on my house by
0:23:13 > 0:23:17military people. There is no one in the world who would sit and say come
0:23:17 > 0:23:21and attack me, come and kill me. You do not implement justice by sending
0:23:21 > 0:23:29armed soldiers to attack a civilian resident. So, I am not bothered
0:23:29 > 0:23:36about that question, because at some point the rule of law and
0:23:36 > 0:23:39constitutionalism will speak. Zimbabweans are already demanding -
0:23:39 > 0:23:43they want to know what happened to President Mugabe. He was humiliated
0:23:43 > 0:23:48by the very same people who were saying they want to restore his
0:23:48 > 0:23:53legacy, who were claiming to be targeting others around him when, in
0:23:53 > 0:23:57fact, they were targeting Mugabe and they did so in a very humiliating
0:23:57 > 0:24:02and totally unacceptable way. Zimbabweans, forget about me,
0:24:02 > 0:24:06Zimbabweans in the country are asking fundamental questions about
0:24:06 > 0:24:10what happened, why it happened and they want to see restoration of the
0:24:10 > 0:24:17rule of law, constitutionalism in Zimbabwe, and they will get it.
0:24:17 > 0:24:41Jonathan Moyo, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.