0:00:01 > 0:00:06Now on BBC News it's time for HARDTalk.
0:00:13 > 0:00:18Welcome in too HARDtalk from New York, with me. The city and Los
0:00:18 > 0:00:23Angeles are the twin capitals of America's giant movie, media and
0:00:23 > 0:00:32entertainment is Mr. A business that has been rocked by allegations of
0:00:32 > 0:00:37systemic sexism, misogyny and abusive behaviour. My guest today is
0:00:37 > 0:00:41Ashley Judd, the actor and activist and one of the first women to go
0:00:41 > 0:00:46public with her accusations about the mega producer Harvey Weinstein.
0:00:46 > 0:00:53What began with voices of anger and pain has become a movement,
0:00:53 > 0:01:01demanding radical change. How far can it go?
0:01:24 > 0:01:30Ashley Judd, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.In recent weeks and
0:01:30 > 0:01:36months something quite extraordinary has happened. Kickstarted, I
0:01:36 > 0:01:40suppose, by the allegations concerning Harvey Weinstein and what
0:01:40 > 0:01:46we see now is the growth of a real movement of women speaking out. Are
0:01:46 > 0:01:51you satisfied that this has come about or are you deeply frustrated
0:01:51 > 0:01:55that it has taken so long for this to come about, what is your
0:01:55 > 0:02:05overriding emotion right now?Julie. -- Joy. Unmitigated comic
0:02:05 > 0:02:10electrifying accurate three. I am so happy is here. I have been telling
0:02:10 > 0:02:15the story of a long time from the moment it happened in fact, my
0:02:15 > 0:02:19particular moments of harassment with Harvey Weinstein, I am a teller
0:02:19 > 0:02:27to use the words used at the Golden Globes, I am a taddler. I was
0:02:27 > 0:02:32molested when I was 11 years old and the first thing I did was go to a
0:02:32 > 0:02:36grown up and said this happened. As so many times have been the case, I
0:02:36 > 0:02:42was told this is an old man, this is not what he meant. At a remained
0:02:42 > 0:02:47absolute inmate truth in telling this was what has happened and that
0:02:47 > 0:02:53is why am such a crusader for gender equality and the eradication of
0:02:53 > 0:02:57gender and sexual -based violence. I experienced it as a youth and in
0:02:57 > 0:03:02Hollywood and has been the core of my work 15 years and now that this
0:03:02 > 0:03:06movement has collectivised and catalyse and is here, it is
0:03:06 > 0:03:10incredibly gratifying to me.We stick with Harvey Weinstein for a
0:03:10 > 0:03:18moment, what happened to you with Harvey happened in 1997 but the
0:03:18 > 0:03:21truth in your story in so many others people stories has only
0:03:21 > 0:03:25emerged in the last few months. So what happened to the telling that
0:03:25 > 0:03:31you did at the time?No one could hear me. No one could hear me. And I
0:03:31 > 0:03:37told the story in great detail to variety magazine two years to the
0:03:37 > 0:03:40month prior to the publication of the New York Times piece and
0:03:40 > 0:03:44everybody knew that I was talking about Harvey, he was named in the
0:03:44 > 0:03:47comments that were posted on variety's website. Sometimes people
0:03:47 > 0:03:54called him by name, sometimes people used loosely disguised names.But
0:03:54 > 0:04:00you didn't name him in the peace. Though I didn't, I was talking with
0:04:00 > 0:04:04variety in their women in film issue, powerful women in Hollywood
0:04:04 > 0:04:08issue, whatever they call it. The journalist asked the question if I
0:04:08 > 0:04:14had already been harassed. I was like yes, hell yes. Everyone in the
0:04:14 > 0:04:17room was like no. Of course ain't telling the story, my dad was with
0:04:17 > 0:04:22me when it happened I came straight from the hotel to the lobby and told
0:04:22 > 0:04:24my dad immediately what had happened, including everybody that
0:04:24 > 0:04:29night with whom I was dawning on Kiss the girls, the director, writer
0:04:29 > 0:04:34and producer. All of whom over the years have discussed it in an
0:04:34 > 0:04:39ongoing way with me and it is just that now the world could hear.The
0:04:39 > 0:04:43pattern is clear from so many of the different stories, he often
0:04:43 > 0:04:49operating out of a hotel room, him summoning a female actor to his room
0:04:49 > 0:04:55and appearing in the bath robe and demanding different tax clearly of a
0:04:55 > 0:05:02sexual nature. You fled when that pretty much happened to you. Were
0:05:02 > 0:05:08you then, for a long time, frightened of Harvey Weinstein?I
0:05:08 > 0:05:12was not frightened of Harvey Weinstein and I think that is why he
0:05:12 > 0:05:17blackballed me. I think that is why he blacklisted me and unfortunately
0:05:17 > 0:05:22did such a successful job sabotaging my career as he continued to harass
0:05:22 > 0:05:27me between 1997 and 1999 and I have other examples and I haven't torn
0:05:27 > 0:05:31into detail because I don't want to give it oxygen.You know what I have
0:05:31 > 0:05:37to do, I have to say that he continues to absolutely deny in any
0:05:37 > 0:05:41of the cases that have been discussed in the last few that he
0:05:41 > 0:05:46ever acted in a way that was not consensual when it came to sexual
0:05:46 > 0:05:52activity.Right, he also hasn't denied that he harassed me and in
0:05:52 > 0:05:56fact he has apologise for it. My particular example he said, a direct
0:05:56 > 0:06:02quote, he didn't lay a glove on me. He didn't because as you noticed I
0:06:02 > 0:06:07was able to escape from the room, he harassed me, abused his power and he
0:06:07 > 0:06:14lorded it over me, this imbalance between us. With vitriol and abuse
0:06:14 > 0:06:19of charm for two years and then all of a sudden... You continue to see
0:06:19 > 0:06:26him? I bumped into him at the hotel, at different events and he was
0:06:26 > 0:06:32always like wink wink, I will find a great part to you. At double
0:06:32 > 0:06:38jeopardy in 1999I reached the point where I could not go further. Arbour
0:06:38 > 0:06:42Walters was to my right and I thought unconsciously having a
0:06:42 > 0:06:46powerful woman next to me helped inflame my own audacious courage
0:06:46 > 0:06:50because I started to go at him. I literally started to go at him and
0:06:50 > 0:06:54was getting ready to call him out in front of whoever happened to hear to
0:06:54 > 0:07:00be within the distance, whatever I am trying to say. He knew it and he
0:07:00 > 0:07:06said you know, I'm going to let you out that little deal we made. Said,
0:07:06 > 0:07:12you do that Harvey. You did that. He never bothered me again but of
0:07:12 > 0:07:18course he blacklisted me which Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh had
0:07:18 > 0:07:24confirmed.He said you and another actress were difficult were
0:07:24 > 0:07:27difficult and you shouldn't be touched because you were too
0:07:27 > 0:07:32demanding and too difficult and Peter Jackson has since said I to
0:07:32 > 0:07:38that information and I wish I hadn't. Does it leave you feeling
0:07:38 > 0:07:42that your career has, in a substantial way, been ruined? --
0:07:42 > 0:07:49ruined by this man?Not ruined, but definitely impacted. I deeply
0:07:49 > 0:07:54appreciate Peter and Fran's apology and that they wrote me a very
0:07:54 > 0:07:58detailed letter with an absolute blow by blow Timeline of what
0:07:58 > 0:08:02happened and what was said and how it was confusing for them because
0:08:02 > 0:08:05this notion that I was difficult to match their experience of me
0:08:05 > 0:08:12personally. It really, it is in a way it a relief because it explains
0:08:12 > 0:08:16what previously had been inexplicable, why I was always, at
0:08:16 > 0:08:23the time I was was the highest paid e-mail actor in Hollywood -- female
0:08:23 > 0:08:28actor. Then when I was on that shortlist, Julia Roberts, Sandro
0:08:28 > 0:08:34Bullock and me and a couple of other people. Without explanation it will
0:08:34 > 0:08:38come down to it that I wouldn't get the offer and I didn't know why.
0:08:38 > 0:08:43Miramax have denied that they put out a bike with or blackballed
0:08:43 > 0:08:47individuals including yourself. There are a lot of contradictions in
0:08:47 > 0:08:50there and other people have since come forward and said yes, that is
0:08:50 > 0:08:55what we heard, we had a feeling it wasn't true. The good news is I have
0:08:55 > 0:09:00such a robust life and I have a great curiosity about the world and
0:09:00 > 0:09:04in a way that led me to the humanitarian work that I have been
0:09:04 > 0:09:10doing so passionately for all of these years since. I have been to 18
0:09:10 > 0:09:14countries around the world, in particular I visited Congo and
0:09:14 > 0:09:20Rwanda many times and I visited India, the wars and in Ukraine and
0:09:20 > 0:09:23Jordan recently and on my way to Bangladesh and shrunk, to use an
0:09:23 > 0:09:29expression used in Texas, I have made a hand. A good handful myself.
0:09:29 > 0:09:33In a sense you are saying it certainly modified the trajectory of
0:09:33 > 0:09:40your life.It did, yes.It did. Let's talk about the somewhat bigger
0:09:40 > 0:09:44picture because this is part of something much bigger. In a
0:09:44 > 0:09:51fascinating head talk that you delivered last year, you talked of
0:09:51 > 0:09:58sexism, misogyny, of viable, violent abuse that you had been getting
0:09:58 > 0:10:04online. -- macro true. -- Capri. This is nothing to do with the
0:10:04 > 0:10:08specifics of the Harvey Weinstein cake, this is about some Twitter
0:10:08 > 0:10:14comments you had put up at a basketball game.Yes, that was an
0:10:14 > 0:10:20ovarian moment, where I thought I had to up my game. I was at a
0:10:20 > 0:10:24Kentucky basketball game, that is my team, Celtic is my team. I didn't
0:10:24 > 0:10:29like a piece of refereeing at and I said something about it in my tweet
0:10:29 > 0:10:33and all of a sudden it went viral and it was caught a cyber mob and
0:10:33 > 0:10:38suddenly it was rape threats and decapitation threats and just all
0:10:38 > 0:10:44kinds of extraordinarily misogynistic, it was hate speech. It
0:10:44 > 0:10:48was hate speech and I decided to write about it.What about your
0:10:48 > 0:10:56attitudes to date about men. -- today. Rate as a girl, suffered at
0:10:56 > 0:11:03the hands of people like Harvey Weinstein. What is your feelings
0:11:03 > 0:11:08today of our relations between men and women are. -- at three.I could
0:11:08 > 0:11:12have cut you off at the beginning and said I love men. I love men. I
0:11:12 > 0:11:18love noise and men. The problem is toxic masculinity and the patriarchy
0:11:18 > 0:11:23of the system that we live in, including me. I think that the
0:11:23 > 0:11:29patriarchy is as constraining and limiting to boys and men as it is to
0:11:29 > 0:11:33girls and women are. You all might not see it that way because when one
0:11:33 > 0:11:44is entitled and has privilege and seems to have a status that affords
0:11:44 > 0:11:50different kinds of power and licences, that that actually is as
0:11:50 > 0:11:54limiting and unfulfilling to boys and men as it is to girls and women
0:11:54 > 0:12:02are.The MeToo campaign that has arisen this focus on Hollywood and
0:12:02 > 0:12:06misogyny and sexism began, the MeToo campaign according to some women has
0:12:06 > 0:12:13gone too far. If I quote you one American writer and journalist, she
0:12:13 > 0:12:18says that mass stereo has set in and become a classic moral parrot down
0:12:18 > 0:12:24like -- neck, which can be as damaging to women as tremendous of
0:12:24 > 0:12:27the Kingussie where she is coming from?I think there is always room
0:12:27 > 0:12:31for critique and that we can be spacious enough in our perspective
0:12:31 > 0:12:38to hold paradox and dissent. There may be summoned to learn from that
0:12:38 > 0:12:43and she maybe also, in my opinion, simply have missed the point.And...
0:12:43 > 0:12:48One of the points is about the inflation about different kinds of
0:12:48 > 0:12:53behaviours of. This alleged banality of Harvey Weinstein and then there
0:12:53 > 0:12:56is what other women writers have called the presumptuous nurse and
0:12:56 > 0:13:04boorishness that women have seen in men and dealt with men for time
0:13:04 > 0:13:08immemorial. Is there a danger of completing different behaviours and
0:13:08 > 0:13:12criminalising some behaviours which, while many regard them as
0:13:12 > 0:13:18unacceptable, are not criminal? Think it is fantastic to have the
0:13:18 > 0:13:23conversation and starting to articulate and identify and really,
0:13:23 > 0:13:27have a gradient of behaviours and understand that there is a spectrum
0:13:27 > 0:13:32of de Gea. That is so important. Unless we talk about this and he's
0:13:32 > 0:13:36each part of it out we can't understand what is unacceptable and
0:13:36 > 0:13:40what is and we also need the lexicon for describing the behaviour.
0:13:40 > 0:13:44Yesterday I switched my TV on and there was use of another act, James
0:13:44 > 0:13:50Franco, who has been the subject of a number of different accusations
0:13:50 > 0:13:57from women, mostly online. James Franco's response is look, Hague, I
0:13:57 > 0:14:01didn't do the things that I am accused of if I did in the past
0:14:01 > 0:14:06behaved badly then I am going to work my very hardest to put things
0:14:06 > 0:14:11right. -- hey. I wonder now about the atmosphere that you see in your
0:14:11 > 0:14:16industry and in entertainment and other industries too where, it seems
0:14:16 > 0:14:22that some men feel that they are, in a sense, being presumed guilty.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25Without due process.
0:14:25 > 0:14:32I think that what James said is terrific, and I think that we have
0:14:32 > 0:14:37all behaved at a certain level unconsciously, and done things that
0:14:37 > 0:14:43were insensitive, inappropriate, without necessarily understanding
0:14:43 > 0:14:48that they were. I mean, we've all are paraded with a certain amount of
0:14:48 > 0:14:52tone deafness, and I like the culpability, and we have to have
0:14:52 > 0:14:56restorative justice. This is about men and women being altogether, and
0:14:56 > 0:15:01having a more equitable and just workplace, home life, social spaces.
0:15:01 > 0:15:06I mean, we know that when women are empowered in the work place, and are
0:15:06 > 0:15:09in decision-making positions, that workplaces have better financial
0:15:09 > 0:15:14outcomes. And there is less harassment when there is more
0:15:14 > 0:15:18diversity. And it takes that kind of individual accountability to
0:15:18 > 0:15:21collectively make a change, on a large scale.This is political,
0:15:21 > 0:15:27though, isn't it, for you? Absolutely.You have become legal in
0:15:27 > 0:15:30that you are a goodwill ambassador for the population fund at United
0:15:30 > 0:15:34Nations. You travel the world, as you said, often addressing women's
0:15:34 > 0:15:38groups and talking to women and girls about the need for them to be
0:15:38 > 0:15:44part of a campaign to deliver better lives across the world for females.
0:15:44 > 0:15:50Look at the United States. How much work does there need to be in the
0:15:50 > 0:15:57United States on these issues?A ton, a ton. Our teen pregnancy is
0:15:57 > 0:16:00skyrocketing. We have some of the highest teen pregnancy in the
0:16:00 > 0:16:06developed world. You know, we don't have paid family leave, except that
0:16:06 > 0:16:10individual companies who have had the courage to lead internally. And
0:16:10 > 0:16:15I am very aware that we have great strides to be made here. I mean,
0:16:15 > 0:16:19there are 49 countries in the world that don't have laws prohibiting
0:16:19 > 0:16:22intimate partner and domestic violence, and while we do have laws
0:16:22 > 0:16:28against it, they too need to be more evenly enforced. And are restraining
0:16:28 > 0:16:34orders are in some instances quite ineffective, and grant the abuser
0:16:34 > 0:16:39all kinds of freedom of movement that constrain the victim to certain
0:16:39 > 0:16:44hours and safe zones.Well, it was very striking at the Golden Globes
0:16:44 > 0:16:47the other day, you and many other leading actors were dressed in
0:16:47 > 0:16:54black, and many of you invited as your guest activists from different
0:16:54 > 0:16:57spheres across the United States, representing all sorts of different
0:16:57 > 0:17:04ethnic and working groups of women. And I know that the #MeToo campaign
0:17:04 > 0:17:08said that one of its absolute driving forces was the
0:17:08 > 0:17:12correspondence it had had with 700,000 female farmworkers whom it
0:17:12 > 0:17:16was determined to draw into this campaign for equality, equal pay,
0:17:16 > 0:17:20women's rights. Do you think, in all honesty, that you and other movie
0:17:20 > 0:17:26stars, and very famous women, are best placed to be relatable, and to
0:17:26 > 0:17:32deliver real change, for people like the female farmworkers of America?I
0:17:32 > 0:17:35believe we are best placed to clean up our own industry, and we are
0:17:35 > 0:17:40doing that. You know, we are writing codes of conduct across unions and
0:17:40 > 0:17:44our business so that, for example, business meetings can no longer take
0:17:44 > 0:17:49place in hotel rooms. And we are working for equal representation
0:17:49 > 0:17:52both behind the camera and in front of the camera. We are working
0:17:52 > 0:17:57towards equal pay.You have miles to go on all of that.We have miles to
0:17:57 > 0:18:01go, and I am so glad that the story about the disparity in pay between
0:18:01 > 0:18:05the great Michelle Williams who has been nominated for two Oscars and
0:18:05 > 0:18:09Mark Warburg has come out. Because I knew those facts myself, and it
0:18:09 > 0:18:13wasn't my story to tell. And it is so egregious, I am grateful it has
0:18:13 > 0:18:17become public. Are we the most reliable, are we the most
0:18:17 > 0:18:21well-placed? I don't know. They reached out to us and our collective
0:18:21 > 0:18:23and individual empathy and understanding is absolutely with
0:18:23 > 0:18:28them. You know, we responded to their identification with us,
0:18:28 > 0:18:33because, you know, it doesn't... Whether it is the server who gets
0:18:33 > 0:18:39her bum pinched or the factory worker who is harassed by the line
0:18:39 > 0:18:44boss, or the female janitor who is trapped in a building after hours
0:18:44 > 0:18:50with men who threaten her, we experience it in the brain stem the
0:18:50 > 0:18:56same way. Any kind of threat is a physiological experience, and it
0:18:56 > 0:19:02doesn't matter what the pay is or what the setting is. Men and women
0:19:02 > 0:19:07experience it the same, and that's really what we are addressing.Trump
0:19:07 > 0:19:11and his supporters do tend to portray people in your business as
0:19:11 > 0:19:18out of touch elites, Liberals who know nothing, frankly, of the lives
0:19:18 > 0:19:24of white, working class Americans in middle America. Do you think that
0:19:24 > 0:19:32fault line could be dangerous, if it develops further?I am from eastern
0:19:32 > 0:19:38Kentucky. And my people have been there for ten generations, and I
0:19:38 > 0:19:42grew up around the coal mines. I live in rural middle Tennessee,
0:19:42 > 0:19:47surrounded by folks who voted for our current president. I think that
0:19:47 > 0:19:53I am uniquely positioned as an American to understand all kinds of
0:19:53 > 0:19:57people from all backgrounds and all classes, and all levels of
0:19:57 > 0:20:03achievement.Well, let's just continue the politics conversation a
0:20:03 > 0:20:07little further. You... It is reported, seriously considered
0:20:07 > 0:20:14running for the Senate and I think 2013, 20 12- 2013. Do you still feel
0:20:14 > 0:20:19they might be a political career for you?I want to be useful. You know,
0:20:19 > 0:20:26I want to be useful to my fellows, and to the God of my understanding,
0:20:26 > 0:20:30and I like to think I am willing to do whatever it takes to be useful.
0:20:30 > 0:20:35It seems right now I am in the right space, and I wouldn't rule it out,
0:20:35 > 0:20:41and it is not a Cory answer. I just don't know. I was very serious at
0:20:41 > 0:20:46the time, and then a young person with a -- and my family came to live
0:20:46 > 0:20:50with me -- coy. I was given an opportunity to help finish raising a
0:20:50 > 0:20:5416-year-old child, and that is why I chose not to run, and I am very
0:20:54 > 0:20:57content with that decision. I think Mitch McConnell needs to be
0:20:57 > 0:21:01unseated, I am really hoping a Democrat can win the seat that has
0:21:01 > 0:21:06been vacated by Bob Corker. I am supporting a candidate in Marcia's
0:21:06 > 0:21:10seat, as he has been held hostage for so many years. But right now I
0:21:10 > 0:21:14am not a candidate.And would you back Oprah Winfrey, for example?
0:21:14 > 0:21:18Much talk post Golden Globes of her being possible presidential material
0:21:18 > 0:21:24if she wanted, if she has ambition? If she... You know, she is clearly a
0:21:24 > 0:21:27genuinely exceptional human being, and she has a capacity to bring
0:21:27 > 0:21:36people together which is maybe the single greatest balm and healing
0:21:36 > 0:21:40glue that our nation is right now. What I really heard, and what she
0:21:40 > 0:21:44said the other night, and I was mere feet away from her, was one person
0:21:44 > 0:21:52can spark change that then inflames a second person, who may go on to do
0:21:52 > 0:21:56something that changes the whole world.Lets them by returning to
0:21:56 > 0:22:05your own industry, and your future in it. -- let's end. Having
0:22:05 > 0:22:10experienced what you experienced, do you want a future in a?I do, I love
0:22:10 > 0:22:15acting and I love being creative. And it has given the opportunities
0:22:15 > 0:22:19to work with the UNFPA, and working with organisations around the world
0:22:19 > 0:22:24that help ring reproductive health and access to millions of women who
0:22:24 > 0:22:28don't have it, and of course that is the key to eradicating poverty. And
0:22:28 > 0:22:33I love being creative.Yes, but you have said it yourself. You work in
0:22:33 > 0:22:38an industry where I think of the top 100 grossing movies of 2016, only 6%
0:22:38 > 0:22:43were made by women. Women are still, compared to men, underpaid in all
0:22:43 > 0:22:48the different aspects of your industry.And of those 6%, only four
0:22:48 > 0:22:55were women of colour. But some are Hayek and I have enjoyed a precious
0:22:55 > 0:22:59friendship or 20 something years. I now have that kind of French ship
0:22:59 > 0:23:03with women I have admired on the screen for years. The way we have
0:23:03 > 0:23:06come together is something terrifying to the industry.For now
0:23:06 > 0:23:11on -- from now on, will you only take jobs where you know you are
0:23:11 > 0:23:14paid equally with the male lead, whether it be in a movie, whether it
0:23:14 > 0:23:18be the theatre production? Are you going to be different in way that
0:23:18 > 0:23:24you handle your career in future?It is a great question, and the answer
0:23:24 > 0:23:30is yes. In addition to asking for 50% male female participation below
0:23:30 > 0:23:34the line, which means all the crew members, including equal
0:23:34 > 0:23:37representation of men and women as department heads. Because it is
0:23:37 > 0:23:40behind the camera where we start telling the story that the story
0:23:40 > 0:23:46emerges on film.So this is a movement which can change your
0:23:46 > 0:23:53business, and maybe change America. I am an optimist. I believe that we
0:23:53 > 0:23:58are at... You know, it is a great time to be alive, and it is a great
0:23:58 > 0:24:02time to be a woman. And revolutions are messy, and they are not linear.
0:24:02 > 0:24:06And we don't have the playbook for this, and that's all right. What
0:24:06 > 0:24:11matters is that we keep our nose to the grindstone, and we do it. We
0:24:11 > 0:24:15have a singleness of purpose, worse than men, girls and women, are
0:24:15 > 0:24:19equally valuable. And all of our spaces need to reflect that.We have
0:24:19 > 0:24:27to end there. At Ashley Judd, thank you so much for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30Thank you very much, I really appreciate it.