0:00:00 > 0:00:02Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.
0:00:12 > 0:00:19Welcome to HARDtalk from Washington, DC. I'm Stephen Sackur. New Year,
0:00:19 > 0:00:24same old Donald Trump. Not a day goes by without any new media storm
0:00:24 > 0:00:28over a presidential comment, tweet or announcement that had Democrats
0:00:28 > 0:00:33decrying him at an fit for office and Republican, well... What? What
0:00:33 > 0:00:40do they feel and do about their de facto party leader? My guest is
0:00:40 > 0:00:43Michael Steele, a former chairman of the Republican National Committee
0:00:43 > 0:00:49should the party stand with or dump Trump?
0:01:12 > 0:01:17Michael Steele, welcome to HARDtalk. It is great to have you here. I want
0:01:17 > 0:01:22to take you back to that date in November 2016 when it became clear
0:01:22 > 0:01:26Donald Trump was going to be the next president of the United States.
0:01:26 > 0:01:31For you as a long and loyal Republican, how did you feel? I
0:01:31 > 0:01:37guess the emotion would be, here we go. Let's strap in and get ready. I
0:01:37 > 0:01:41had worked with Donald Trump in the past, I know what kind of campaign
0:01:41 > 0:01:46he had run over the past 1.5 years. I had predict the his eventual win
0:01:46 > 0:01:51early on. But not in neutral fashion. This is
0:01:51 > 0:01:55a quote from you after you observed one of the later presidential
0:01:55 > 0:02:01debates. He said, "I was damn near puking during the debate.
0:02:01 > 0:02:06" Exactly. That is how I react to it, but had nothing to do with his
0:02:06 > 0:02:10ability to connect with voters in a way that they would several months
0:02:10 > 0:02:17later go into the ballot box and vote for him. That is what a lot of
0:02:17 > 0:02:20the establishment and media and elsewhere did not understand fully
0:02:20 > 0:02:26the time was that as much as we were hair on fire about a lot of things
0:02:26 > 0:02:31that you were saying, beneath the surface, he was connecting with
0:02:31 > 0:02:35people in a way in which they found themselves drawn to him. I step out
0:02:35 > 0:02:39and observe that and what I realised was Donald Trump's voters were once
0:02:39 > 0:02:45his audience. So these were people he had been able to cultivate and
0:02:45 > 0:02:50develop a relationship with over a long period of time before he ran
0:02:50 > 0:02:52for president. And it should be said that you ran
0:02:52 > 0:02:55the Republican Party National committee at a time when Mitt Romney
0:02:55 > 0:03:04was becoming a front runner... Right up to John McCain. The 2012
0:03:04 > 0:03:08election where Republicans simply couldn't find a viable winner, and
0:03:08 > 0:03:13Donald Trump... I disagree with that concept. They
0:03:13 > 0:03:16were certainly viable in the sense that they ran competitive campaigns,
0:03:16 > 0:03:22the problem was that the last little bit, as you know in politics, is
0:03:22 > 0:03:26about connection. You can have the best papers in the world. Hillary
0:03:26 > 0:03:32Clinton is a great example of it. Policy, but at the end of the day,
0:03:32 > 0:03:35it's that connection with the voters that has to be genuine enough to
0:03:35 > 0:03:39pull you through, and that was something that was missing at the
0:03:39 > 0:03:43end of both of those campaigns. Which brings us to the present day.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46If you are saying to me that despite your reservations, which had from
0:03:46 > 0:03:52the very beginning, you could see that this guy had a special ability
0:03:52 > 0:03:58to connect. Let us bring it to the present and ask, what on earth do
0:03:58 > 0:04:03you think Donald Trump thinks he is doing with the messages he's putting
0:04:03 > 0:04:10out day by day right now? Let us start with the first and central
0:04:10 > 0:04:15quote of this period, and that is his remark to a bipartisan group of
0:04:15 > 0:04:26Congress people that he couldn't understand why so many people from
0:04:26 > 0:04:31shithole countries were able to come to the United States.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35The Bays have stayed with him throughout. That is it will stop
0:04:35 > 0:04:41that is exactly, his cornerstone for anything he is able to do. He could
0:04:41 > 0:04:47calculate, going into 2018 with 38%. Democrats are put no-one B so far
0:04:47 > 0:04:54who can keep me there. And he believes, and I believe and it is
0:04:54 > 0:04:59public a sad commentary in the main is if an election is held today,
0:04:59 > 0:05:03given the options that are voters have, he would be in a better
0:05:03 > 0:05:08position to win than not. And that, again, speaks to the fact that
0:05:08 > 0:05:12Donald Trump, for everything else that people don't like about him,
0:05:12 > 0:05:16but that core constituency that stays with him, that's a good solid
0:05:16 > 0:05:19base to start from. And so he appeals to them. Both comments
0:05:19 > 0:05:25appeal to those voters.He appeals to that basic instinct.
0:05:25 > 0:05:30You are that relative rarity in the Republican Party, a senior voice
0:05:30 > 0:05:34from the black American community. In your view, is Donald Trump a
0:05:34 > 0:05:39racist? Yeah, I think he has racist
0:05:39 > 0:05:43tendency. He uses race as a weapon to divide and conquer his opponents,
0:05:43 > 0:05:46to shift the narrative do something else.
0:05:46 > 0:05:48Personally, how do you feel about that?
0:05:48 > 0:05:56It offers... Bothersome. You are black American. I didn't
0:05:56 > 0:05:58vote for the man, so what are the mean.
0:05:58 > 0:06:03You didn't vote for him? No, no. The former chief Nu were
0:06:03 > 0:06:07forced -- refused to vote... Since before the election, no.
0:06:07 > 0:06:14Because I could not... I have a certain value set, I have certain
0:06:14 > 0:06:18principles and have a certain way I look at the kind of leaders I want
0:06:18 > 0:06:22to represent me, and are keeping to understand here, and this is a
0:06:22 > 0:06:25critical moment on the heels of this recent controversy with the
0:06:25 > 0:06:28President, that this is no longer about Donald Trump. We need to get
0:06:28 > 0:06:32over this shock and awe with Donald Trump. Guess what he said today.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36What does this mean? It doesn't mean anything. He is a 71-year-old man
0:06:36 > 0:06:40who was born out of a certain period of time...
0:06:40 > 0:06:44You are suggesting we normalised the fact that a racist is sitting in the
0:06:44 > 0:06:49White House. We had an election. There is no peat
0:06:49 > 0:06:52and proceedings, no 25th Amendment proceedings, this will revolve
0:06:52 > 0:06:57itself at the ballot box in 2020. The American people have a decision
0:06:57 > 0:07:02to make it that time. Whether Michael Steele fill up a certain way
0:07:02 > 0:07:05or someone else feel the certain way, you can just talk about it. The
0:07:05 > 0:07:09key thing is this is less about Donald Trump and more about the
0:07:09 > 0:07:12American people, a reflection of us and the question becomes, is this a
0:07:12 > 0:07:15reflection that we want to continue to project?
0:07:15 > 0:07:19We will get to the American people and the nation after we talk more
0:07:19 > 0:07:24about the Republican Party. Let us remind ourselves, you speak to me as
0:07:24 > 0:07:28a former chief of the Republican National Committee. What do you make
0:07:28 > 0:07:34of the responses to this particular outrage, the use of the word, it is
0:07:34 > 0:07:38offensive but I would use it, shithole. Other things we could talk
0:07:38 > 0:07:44about. What I want to know is what you make of the reaction of the
0:07:44 > 0:07:47leadership of the Republican Party on Capitol Hill?
0:07:47 > 0:07:51It is disappointing. The reaction is disappointing beyond any measure.
0:07:51 > 0:07:56You won't see any real movement against Donald Trump inside the GOP
0:07:56 > 0:08:01until his numbers change inside the GOP. You have to keep in mind that
0:08:01 > 0:08:06members of Congress in a particular way, they look at their
0:08:06 > 0:08:11congressional districts. Donald Trump is at 60 plus % in their
0:08:11 > 0:08:15districts. They are not quoted God gets that number. I don't want to be
0:08:15 > 0:08:21primary in a primary election. They don't want to be in a situation
0:08:21 > 0:08:24where the President is using the hammer of his office, as we have
0:08:24 > 0:08:30seen him do... My mind is being bobbled, but you
0:08:30 > 0:08:34are saying that the top echelon of the Republican Party is happy to
0:08:34 > 0:08:39yoke itself to a racist as long as they believe that that is in their
0:08:39 > 0:08:43political self-interest. Why are you sitting here, shocked by
0:08:43 > 0:08:49it? Didn't she watched the 2016 election? You watched party leaders
0:08:49 > 0:08:54admit, yes, what he said was racist, but we can still work with him. So
0:08:54 > 0:08:58what you have two get over your shock and step back and understand
0:08:58 > 0:09:02the politics that is beneath the surface. It is no stranger. We have
0:09:02 > 0:09:07seen this in your own country, Great Britain, when you look at the shop
0:09:07 > 0:09:11and/or the next day Brexit. You have two understand where people are
0:09:11 > 0:09:14coming from and you have to understand what motivates and move
0:09:14 > 0:09:18the political leadership that represents those people. At the end
0:09:18 > 0:09:20of the day, politics is that the call.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23Even on that cynical premise, I still...
0:09:23 > 0:09:28It is fact. You can also argue in the world of
0:09:28 > 0:09:34values and morality, it is as well. Even either bases you have presented
0:09:34 > 0:09:37the argument, I still don't understand why the Republican Party
0:09:37 > 0:09:42is in lockstep still with Donald Trump. If one looks at basic facts
0:09:42 > 0:09:44about tomography in the United States...
0:09:44 > 0:09:48What do you think will happen at this point? What would you recommend
0:09:48 > 0:09:51would happen at this point? Meaningful distance between
0:09:51 > 0:09:56themselves and Donald Trump. How can they do that?
0:09:56 > 0:10:01Mr President, the way you I'd dealing with these issues, like
0:10:01 > 0:10:03immigration, is utterly unacceptable.
0:10:03 > 0:10:08And then what? And when he goes... So? What do you do then? He is the
0:10:08 > 0:10:12one who has to sign whatever legislation. If he doesn't find the
0:10:12 > 0:10:16legislation that she wanted it passed, or take you are published?
0:10:16 > 0:10:23Going back to your notion of what is in their electoral self-interest,
0:10:23 > 0:10:25you have the fastest-growing demographic in the United States
0:10:25 > 0:10:33today, being the Latina Hispanic community. They look at a president
0:10:33 > 0:10:35who on issues like building the wall...
0:10:35 > 0:10:42They voted 30% for him in 2016. I haven't seen the polling, but given
0:10:42 > 0:10:49everything that had gone before, and certainly with respect to Hispanic
0:10:49 > 0:10:56and the issue of the back end, the policy issue, I'm saying, again,
0:10:56 > 0:11:00this doesn't follow any particular logical pattern. That's the thing
0:11:00 > 0:11:04that is so frustrating about this, because the voters themselves,
0:11:04 > 0:11:09that's why I go back to this... I give speeches all the time. Everyone
0:11:09 > 0:11:14is upset about Donald Trump. He is a reflection of us, a reflection of
0:11:14 > 0:11:18where we are. You say, what could we do, as
0:11:18 > 0:11:20politicians or political commentators such as yourself these
0:11:20 > 0:11:25days. One thing you could do, if I can make it personal, you could quit
0:11:25 > 0:11:26the Republican Party until Donald Trump...
0:11:26 > 0:11:33Why would I do that? Your party is backing a man who you
0:11:33 > 0:11:37believe to be a racist. I could leave and quit and become
0:11:37 > 0:11:40like everybody else and leave so I could stay inside to fight for my
0:11:40 > 0:11:45party. There is no fight, who have given
0:11:45 > 0:11:47up. You save there is nothing you can do.
0:11:47 > 0:11:53You are talking about what our legislators going to do? They are
0:11:53 > 0:11:57not going to impeach the man, that is not going to happen. Get that out
0:11:57 > 0:12:01of your head. They will not invoke the 25th Amendment where they write
0:12:01 > 0:12:04a letter saying the President is incompetent to serve. That is not
0:12:04 > 0:12:08going to happen. The question becomes, how do you get through and
0:12:08 > 0:12:14get subsidy policy done if you can, and how do you, to your point, and
0:12:14 > 0:12:17look, I don't want to give the impression that I don't appreciate
0:12:17 > 0:12:23what you say. I do. The question is there is only so much of this that
0:12:23 > 0:12:26is going to get itself worked out now. That is what elections too.
0:12:26 > 0:12:31This November will be the first time the American people will be able to
0:12:31 > 0:12:36send a signal, as we saw in key -- 2006 with George Bush, they had
0:12:36 > 0:12:41enough with the war and the economy, they took the house away from
0:12:41 > 0:12:47Republicans, they are neglected a lot of folks, and that is the
0:12:47 > 0:12:50trendline I see happening. Recently in a state of Virginia,
0:12:50 > 0:12:56look at what happened. It looks to me as though in a whole host of
0:12:56 > 0:13:02significant races in 2018, if the Republican Party continues to tie
0:13:02 > 0:13:05itself to Donald Trump, they may well be facing a disaster.
0:13:05 > 0:13:11A very male -- very well may be. You have to learn from the school of
0:13:11 > 0:13:14hard knocks because that is what politics is all about. If you want
0:13:14 > 0:13:19to go down this road, you do not want to, and I agree with the advice
0:13:19 > 0:13:23he just gave, I have given this advice, I have given to folks inside
0:13:23 > 0:13:25the White House. It is personal. At what point, when
0:13:25 > 0:13:29the party will not listen to people like you, and it is relevant that
0:13:29 > 0:13:32you are African American, they are not noted for its sensitivity...
0:13:32 > 0:13:39It has nothing to do with that, it is not I am a black man, therefore I
0:13:39 > 0:13:42had to step away. Ira became a Republican because of men like
0:13:42 > 0:13:47Frederick Douglass because of men like Martin Luther King and others
0:13:47 > 0:13:52and certainly Abraham Lincoln, the founder Robert party. I became a
0:13:52 > 0:13:56Republican because of men like Ronald Reagan, who inspired in me
0:13:56 > 0:14:00not just a sense of service, but a sense of responsibility to my
0:14:00 > 0:14:05community, and what we can do to help the least.
0:14:05 > 0:14:10Is it time for more Republicans, who are minded like you and frankly
0:14:10 > 0:14:13disgusted by what they are seeing from Donald Trump in the White House
0:14:13 > 0:14:18to actually say they want no part of electoral politics right now? I'm
0:14:18 > 0:14:22thinking of Senator Jeff Flake for example who is outspoken in his
0:14:22 > 0:14:25criticism of Donald Trump, said recently there are times when we
0:14:25 > 0:14:30must risk all careers in favour of our principles and now is such a
0:14:30 > 0:14:34time, and he, realising because of his criticising, he was not going to
0:14:34 > 0:14:40get the nomination
0:14:40 > 0:14:46I think that's unfortunate and I've said so, I've told him that. Even
0:14:46 > 0:14:50though, look, if what you're saying, Hiro a great book on this, and if
0:14:50 > 0:14:53you really believe these founding principles hold true, you stay in
0:14:53 > 0:14:59the fight. What good is it to walk away and to lessen the authority of
0:14:59 > 0:15:04your voice, even though you may lose your primary?That's called making a
0:15:04 > 0:15:09principled stand.No, it's not. Here's another thing he said, when
0:15:09 > 0:15:13the next generation, said Senator Flake, asks us, why didn't you do
0:15:13 > 0:15:17something, why didn't you speak up, what are you going to say?Speaking
0:15:17 > 0:15:21up is one thing, walking away is something different. My attitude is
0:15:21 > 0:15:25you're a current sitting United States senator who is drawn a very
0:15:25 > 0:15:34bright line with this president, as has Senator corker from Tennessee,
0:15:34 > 0:15:39drawn a very bright line with this president, so you're looking at your
0:15:39 > 0:15:42re-election prospects and they don't look good, what do you do? What I do
0:15:42 > 0:15:46is I stay in the fight, I stay in the fight to make the point because
0:15:46 > 0:15:50I've got the authority of my office, I've got the fire of my positions to
0:15:50 > 0:15:54stand in that and go, you know what, I'm going to use my real election,
0:15:54 > 0:15:58I'm going to use my primary as the battleground for what I believe in
0:15:58 > 0:16:02and I may go down in flames but I'm going to make the principled point
0:16:02 > 0:16:06that this should not stand, and who knows, who knows, you just may win.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09But if one looks at recent internal Republican battles in the state of
0:16:09 > 0:16:13Alabama for example, and what we now see unfolding in Arizona, where the
0:16:13 > 0:16:17latest news is that Joe are Payet of all people, the former sheriff, the
0:16:17 > 0:16:21man who was convicted in a federal court of involvement in racial
0:16:21 > 0:16:25profiling, these are the kinds of people that grassroots Republicans
0:16:25 > 0:16:30want to fight for what the party calls national elections.We don't
0:16:30 > 0:16:35know that because they haven't named a nominee for the party, Joe has
0:16:35 > 0:16:39said he's going to run but that doesn't mean he will win the
0:16:39 > 0:16:42primary, there are other people in that race, some supported by Trump
0:16:42 > 0:16:46people, some supported by the establishment types, we will see how
0:16:46 > 0:16:53this plays out.Are we not seen, I'm going to create a phrase of this,
0:16:53 > 0:16:58the Steve Bannonisation of the Republican Party, he's been in the
0:16:58 > 0:17:02news recently because the Michael Wolff book, fire and fury, and what
0:17:02 > 0:17:06we've seen with Bannon and he's fallen out with Donald Trump, but
0:17:06 > 0:17:10his point is he's an insurgent, a nationalistic populist and he
0:17:10 > 0:17:14believes his movement is bigger than Donald Trump and whatever happens to
0:17:14 > 0:17:17his relationship with Donald Trump it's the Bannon politics of
0:17:17 > 0:17:21insurgency that will ultimately drive the Republican Party.Clearly
0:17:21 > 0:17:27there's not a whole lot of life in that.Why do you say that?Did he
0:17:27 > 0:17:31elect Roy Moore, is Roy Moore going to the US Senate? No he's not.C how
0:17:31 > 0:17:36many Bannon acolytes go forward. Bannon acolytes are second-guessing
0:17:36 > 0:17:40their runs because they have watched this collapse. You have to
0:17:40 > 0:17:45understand the truth of the matter is Bannon has no base, his base is
0:17:45 > 0:17:49Donald Trump's base and Donald Trump's base is with Donald Trump,
0:17:49 > 0:17:53not with Steve Bannon so these candidates that they are putting up
0:17:53 > 0:17:56and promoting out there looked at what happened in Alabama and they
0:17:56 > 0:18:01went, I don't think so. There are already beginning to back out of the
0:18:01 > 0:18:06idea of running, this is not going to go... You're not going to see a
0:18:06 > 0:18:09situation where Steve Bannon is going to be promoting candidates on
0:18:09 > 0:18:14one side and Donald Trump is going to be promoting candidates on the
0:18:14 > 0:18:17other, that's a mismatch that weren't even stand the test at all
0:18:17 > 0:18:22because Bannon has no base. What Bannon has, though, is a populist
0:18:22 > 0:18:29idea that has taken hold that Trump has used to some degree, but even
0:18:29 > 0:18:33there, Donald Trump has created this own space bought himself.Let me ask
0:18:33 > 0:18:37you a broader question about race in America today and it's something
0:18:37 > 0:18:41I've seen discussed in recent hours in the United States quite a lot,
0:18:41 > 0:18:45the idea is that if the Democratic Party for the next presidential
0:18:45 > 0:18:49election comes out with an out and out left-wing candidate, maybe a
0:18:49 > 0:18:54Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, and they are running against Donald
0:18:54 > 0:18:57Trump, there are people in this country who believe that whatever
0:18:57 > 0:19:02misgivings people have about the perception Donald Trump is racist,
0:19:02 > 0:19:07they would rather vote for a racist than for somebody who they believe
0:19:07 > 0:19:12with their left-wing policies might affect their economic position and
0:19:12 > 0:19:16their pocketbook. Is that something that you believe?I think that's
0:19:16 > 0:19:23something that's a fair... I think that's a fair assessment. America's
0:19:23 > 0:19:29not a progressive left country at its core. We're very puritanical in
0:19:29 > 0:19:34many respects.Is white America instinct of the in your view
0:19:34 > 0:19:38dangerously racist?No, that's a silly comment to make, that's crazy.
0:19:38 > 0:19:42It's a question, it's not a comment. Given everything we've discussed in
0:19:42 > 0:19:46the last 20 minutes.I'm going to project all people are racist like
0:19:46 > 0:19:53Donald Trump that's silly, next question. That is silly!You don't
0:19:53 > 0:19:57seemed depressed that roughly a third of the American people are
0:19:57 > 0:20:01still diehard supporters of a man who you describe as a racist.I
0:20:01 > 0:20:06don't get depressed because I got my bottle of June, I get through the
0:20:06 > 0:20:13day, you know! I'm having fun with it! Where you're going with that is
0:20:13 > 0:20:20just part of a stereotyped view of America that is... You just need to
0:20:20 > 0:20:24get over it.Before we end just a couple of quickfire questions about
0:20:24 > 0:20:29news events of recent days, one we've discussed already and alluded
0:20:29 > 0:20:33to, the publication of fire and fury by Michael Wolff. Fact checkers have
0:20:33 > 0:20:36had a field day because not everything in that book is accurate
0:20:36 > 0:20:39but nonetheless the picture it paints of the Trump White House and
0:20:39 > 0:20:44the views of people around Trump that this man is not a suitable
0:20:44 > 0:20:48President of the United States, not competent to do the job, does that
0:20:48 > 0:20:52worry you?Oh, it does, it worries a lot of people and that's why it was
0:20:52 > 0:20:57so important coming in, and I did a little bit of work on the transition
0:20:57 > 0:21:01before the President's team blew it up, it was so important to get the
0:21:01 > 0:21:05right people in the White House, get the right people in place to help
0:21:05 > 0:21:09support... We understood, if nothing else, that you had an individual
0:21:09 > 0:21:14coming into the Oval Office who had no political established order. He
0:21:14 > 0:21:18had no political team, he had no real political base in Washington
0:21:18 > 0:21:22with which to work, no relationships on Capitol Hill, no relationships on
0:21:22 > 0:21:30K street, which is sort of the financial fundraising part of
0:21:30 > 0:21:35politics so the idea was to give him a team of people and put in place a
0:21:35 > 0:21:40team of people, which is why the positions of Secretary of State and
0:21:40 > 0:21:44Department of Defence and CIA was so important in these critical areas,
0:21:44 > 0:21:48to have good, competent people there who the president would listen to.
0:21:48 > 0:21:52The problem, as we've discovered, is the president does not listen well
0:21:52 > 0:21:56and the president in his own way is his own man, and I get that, but
0:21:56 > 0:22:01when you don't have the strength of a political structure to help you
0:22:01 > 0:22:04navigate the Washington and the responsibilities of the office, this
0:22:04 > 0:22:08is what you get.And we have to end in a moment but I'm amazed by your
0:22:08 > 0:22:12cheerful demeanour throughout this interview. As a senior figure in the
0:22:12 > 0:22:16Republican Party, the party of Abraham Lincoln and Ronald Reagan,
0:22:16 > 0:22:21do you not feel that right now your party is on a 1-way path to
0:22:21 > 0:22:28self-destruction?Look, I think my party has not had to deal with a lot
0:22:28 > 0:22:33of things that we need to deal with since Reagan left office to be
0:22:33 > 0:22:38honest. This is a just Donald Trump. The issues that are boiling inside
0:22:38 > 0:22:43the GOP have been there since really the late 80s, early nineties. This
0:22:43 > 0:22:49idea of who we are as Republicans. Republican versus Conservative. Are
0:22:49 > 0:22:53be the same, are they different? The idea of what we believe, what we
0:22:53 > 0:22:58stand for, we've watched this party, to my great frustration, again
0:22:58 > 0:23:02prompted by this administration, move closer towards a blind loyalty
0:23:02 > 0:23:07to Putin and Russia. What the hell is that? Where has that come from?
0:23:07 > 0:23:12We were the party that label that the evil Empire.Doesn't big
0:23:12 > 0:23:16comeback to cynicism? Donald Trump has delivered massive tax cuts for
0:23:16 > 0:23:21corporate America. He has delivered...All that was in place
0:23:21 > 0:23:26before those things happened. What you're talking about is post-
0:23:26 > 0:23:29administration. He's already been elected and they move those balls
0:23:29 > 0:23:34down the track but that conversation about Russia in particular, that was
0:23:34 > 0:23:37transformative before, that was something that took place. They
0:23:37 > 0:23:43changed the party platform under Trump's team to sort of embrace a
0:23:43 > 0:23:47little bit more of this idea of Putin and Russia. So what I'm saying
0:23:47 > 0:23:54is it's not something... It's not just tax cuts for the rich, this is
0:23:54 > 0:23:58an ideological shift for the party that has nothing to do with tax
0:23:58 > 0:24:01cuts.But you didn't actually address my question, if this
0:24:01 > 0:24:05continues, is the party facing self-destruction?No, I don't think
0:24:05 > 0:24:09so. I think the party, like any other organisation, yes, there's
0:24:09 > 0:24:13going to be ripped and tears and we'll wait to see what the mergers
0:24:13 > 0:24:17out of it. That's why are they in, that's why the fight is important to
0:24:17 > 0:24:23me. I'm not giving up my eustachian, I'm not giving up. The value still
0:24:23 > 0:24:27matter and that's what we're fighting for.Michael Steele, we
0:24:27 > 0:24:33have to end there, but thank you for being on HARDtalk.My pleasure.