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0:00:03 > 0:00:06Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Sarah Montague.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15Russia is calling on the EU to stump up billions of dollars
0:00:15 > 0:00:22to help rebuild Syria.
0:00:22 > 0:00:28I am in Brussels to speak to Russia's representative to the EU,
0:00:28 > 0:00:36Vladimir Chizhov. He said that if the EU doesn't pay, then they will
0:00:36 > 0:00:39bear the responsibility for that.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42But Russian planes are still destroying parts of the country
0:00:42 > 0:00:44and rather than support the peace process at the UN,
0:00:44 > 0:00:46they have set up their own parallel talks.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49So what responsibility do the Russians themselves have
0:00:49 > 0:00:57for ending the war in Syria?
0:01:07 > 0:01:11Vladimir Chizhov, welcome to HARDtalk.Thank you.What do you
0:01:11 > 0:01:17mean when you say that if the EU don't pay for the reconstruction of
0:01:17 > 0:01:20Syria or contributed to it, they will bear the responsibility for
0:01:20 > 0:01:28that?Well, the reconstruction of Syria, after the extensive damage
0:01:28 > 0:01:36that has been inflicted on that country during over six years of
0:01:36 > 0:01:42war, is, in my view, the responsibility of the whole
0:01:42 > 0:01:47international community, including the European Union. Now the European
0:01:47 > 0:01:57Union has been declaring a number of times it's willingness to contribute
0:01:57 > 0:02:04to resettlement in Syria, so that would be one of the ways. Since the
0:02:04 > 0:02:08European Union has admitted, rightly so, that it is not part of any
0:02:08 > 0:02:13military activity, it is not a military alliance. But on the
0:02:13 > 0:02:21economic side it has so far limited its participation, its contribution
0:02:21 > 0:02:26to a share of humanitarian aid.When you say a share, it is by far the
0:02:26 > 0:02:32largest owner of humanitarian aid. We are talking about more than 10
0:02:32 > 0:02:34billion euros, Twell billion dollars. But for reconstruction, a
0:02:34 > 0:02:44conservative estimate, is 250 billion dollars. Why should they be
0:02:44 > 0:02:49painted that now when Russian planes are still bombing Syria?What the
0:02:49 > 0:02:57Russian planes have been doing, throughout the two years of Russia's
0:02:57 > 0:03:04involvement in combating terrorism there inside Syria, has been
0:03:04 > 0:03:12destroying the facilities of ISIL and Al-Nour struck, which are
0:03:12 > 0:03:18designated by the United Nations as terrorist organisations -- Al-Nour
0:03:18 > 0:03:26struck. There is no record of any deliberate bombing of hospitals. It
0:03:26 > 0:03:34is a fact that those terrorist organisations have been using
0:03:34 > 0:03:40civilian facilities, hospitals, schools and even, as the shields and
0:03:40 > 0:03:46also as their own headquarters.But there are 48 hospitals run by
0:03:46 > 0:03:51medical aid charities, they have not been acting as shields, and they
0:03:51 > 0:03:55have been hit. There is evidence of targeting of hospitals and medical
0:03:55 > 0:03:59facilities.There is no evidence of deliberate targeting of hospitals
0:03:59 > 0:04:04working as hospitals.The Atlantic Council, a Washington -based
0:04:04 > 0:04:07research Institute, whose chairman is the American ambassador to
0:04:07 > 0:04:11Russia, produced evidence that Russia and Syria had repeatedly
0:04:11 > 0:04:15bombed hospitals and they suggested he be evidence of that. Are you
0:04:15 > 0:04:22saying it is all a mistake?Well, in operations like this mistakes are
0:04:22 > 0:04:30unavoidable, certainly. But I can assure you that the strategy of the
0:04:30 > 0:04:34Russian air force and all Russian military involvement in Syria has
0:04:34 > 0:04:43been to destroy the assets and the headquarters primarily of those
0:04:43 > 0:04:50terrorist organisations. It has never been a Russia's aim to destroy
0:04:50 > 0:04:55the infrastructure.So when the UNICEF say medical facilities in
0:04:55 > 0:05:00East Cooter were hit in the last couple of days, would you say that
0:05:00 > 0:05:11was a mistake to? It has been used by opposition militants linked to
0:05:11 > 0:05:17Al-Nusra and however it is called now.As a springboard for attacks
0:05:17 > 0:05:25against the Syrian military. What the Syrian military did was against
0:05:25 > 0:05:33that. An area that is effectively besieged, and in which very little
0:05:33 > 0:05:37military aid has gone in, will there be more evacuations, not least of
0:05:37 > 0:05:44children in days of ad in Goutha? Of course there will be. Humanitarian
0:05:44 > 0:05:53aid will be reaching Goutha, as will as many other difficult places
0:05:53 > 0:05:56inside Syria.Russia is saying to the EU, you have to help with the
0:05:56 > 0:06:00reconstruction. We are talking about 250 billion, how much is Russia
0:06:00 > 0:06:05putting up?Not exclusively. The EU and all the others.How much is
0:06:05 > 0:06:10Russia putting up?Those who have joined the US coalition they should
0:06:10 > 0:06:17also join the international effort to assist in the reconstruction of
0:06:17 > 0:06:24Syria.How will Russia joined that effort? How much will it put up?I
0:06:24 > 0:06:28cannot give you a specific figure, because they are estimates. The wine
0:06:28 > 0:06:35you referred to, citing, that is one estimate, there may be others -- the
0:06:35 > 0:06:39one. I have not heard any estimates coming from the Syrian government.
0:06:39 > 0:06:45Certainly it will be a huge sum. Does Russia recognise is
0:06:45 > 0:06:50responsibility in needing to repair the damage it is responsible for?
0:06:50 > 0:07:01Russia recognises its responsibility for achieving the results of the
0:07:01 > 0:07:10military involvement, which is destroying the assets and the basis
0:07:10 > 0:07:16of terrorist organisations in Syria. We are also involved in promoting a
0:07:16 > 0:07:21political solution in Syria.Indeed. You are also involved in shoring
0:07:21 > 0:07:25President Assad is still in power and in control of much of Syria and
0:07:25 > 0:07:30yet you are asking much of the EU to pay reconstruction money that would
0:07:30 > 0:07:34effectively rob them a more -- ensuring.I would put it
0:07:34 > 0:07:43differently. Any reconstruction money, properly channels, would lead
0:07:43 > 0:07:47to reconstructing the housing, the facilities, including hospitals and
0:07:47 > 0:07:52schools, roads, bridges, some of which have been destroyed, some of
0:07:52 > 0:08:00them by the US led coalition, which did not hesitate to bomb
0:08:00 > 0:08:03infrastructure facilities.The argument that other countries should
0:08:03 > 0:08:08put money in for reconstruction surely can be made when there is
0:08:08 > 0:08:14peace. Does Russia fully support the Geneva peace process?It certainly
0:08:14 > 0:08:20does. The problem with the Geneva peace process, from the outside, and
0:08:20 > 0:08:27the reason why it has barely moved forward for quite some time was that
0:08:27 > 0:08:34the initial idea, as described in the relevant UN Security Council
0:08:34 > 0:08:42resolution, was to bring together the Syrian government and a combined
0:08:42 > 0:08:47representative of the Syrian government. The government came
0:08:47 > 0:08:55there but those people who claimed to represent the Syrian opposition
0:08:55 > 0:09:00came from all sorts of places, London, Istanbul... But not Syria
0:09:00 > 0:09:09proper. My question to you was how it fits into the Sochi talks, to
0:09:09 > 0:09:13they take into account what has been agreed in the peace process, that
0:09:13 > 0:09:16there will be a transitional government and President Assad does
0:09:16 > 0:09:22not represent the future of Syria. Actually, that is not agreed in
0:09:22 > 0:09:29Geneva. There is an understanding describes in the Geneva conclusions
0:09:29 > 0:09:34of 2012, that there will be a political transition, yes, but not
0:09:34 > 0:09:39in the current...You accept that President Assad will not remain as
0:09:39 > 0:09:44president of Syria wants this peace process is over?Once there are
0:09:44 > 0:09:48elections and somebody else is elected.But that could take years.
0:09:48 > 0:09:55Not necessarily. Part of this political process would be to draft
0:09:55 > 0:10:05a new constitution.There is a UN diplomat who says of the Secretary
0:10:05 > 0:10:08General, Antonio Guterres, that so far Sochi does not pass the smell
0:10:08 > 0:10:16test. You are not seen as an honest broker.It is unfair, to say the
0:10:16 > 0:10:21least.Do you seriously think that Russia, by this process, can bring
0:10:21 > 0:10:30peace to Syria?Well, ultimately, it is only the Syrians who can bring
0:10:30 > 0:10:34peace to their country. Algol and they have the goal of all others,
0:10:34 > 0:10:38including the European Union, is to contribute to that happening --
0:10:38 > 0:10:42Algol, under the auspices of the United Nations, definitely.Whatever
0:10:42 > 0:10:49happens at Sochi will feed into the Geneva...Absolutely.The UN will
0:10:49 > 0:10:58oversee this.Yes. Both will feed into the Geneva process.It seems
0:10:58 > 0:11:02almost as though Russia has had enough of it now. President Putin
0:11:02 > 0:11:06says Mission accomplished. But given his aims at the outset of
0:11:06 > 0:11:10stabilising the legitimate power in Syria and the conditions of
0:11:10 > 0:11:17political compromise, there is no political compromise.Well, I
0:11:17 > 0:11:21believe that now that the hostilities are mostly over, of
0:11:21 > 0:11:30course there will be pockets and flareups of military clashes, that
0:11:30 > 0:11:38is inevitable in any conflict of that they mention, we can now think
0:11:38 > 0:11:46and actually proceed along the path of a political solution.And the
0:11:46 > 0:11:51intensified campaign we are seeing in places like Eastern Goutha, is
0:11:51 > 0:11:56that a sort of vinyl, effectively permission for President Assad, the
0:11:56 > 0:12:02Syrian regime, to do what they can, and there are suggestions that
0:12:02 > 0:12:07chlorine gas, chemical weapons have again been used, which, at the very
0:12:07 > 0:12:15least, Russia must be complicit in. Well, until I see evidence, hard
0:12:15 > 0:12:19evidence of anything like that happening, I am not prepared to
0:12:19 > 0:12:25discuss it.You've seen the pictures. You've seen the reports of
0:12:25 > 0:12:29the effects of the bombing. Throughout the conflict in Syria, I
0:12:29 > 0:12:36have seen hundreds of pictures and videos staged of ostensibly chemical
0:12:36 > 0:12:40attacks.Could be Syrian regime use chemical weapons without Russian and
0:12:40 > 0:12:48knowledge?I think that, to begin with, the Syrian government, which
0:12:48 > 0:12:53you prefer to call regime, I call government, has no reason to use
0:12:53 > 0:12:58chemical weapons...It is a different question. If I accept what
0:12:58 > 0:13:02you are saying that there is no evidence, let us accept that, what I
0:13:02 > 0:13:07am curious about is the process, the way things work in Syria. I am
0:13:07 > 0:13:12wondering if it is possible that Syrian planes could use chemical
0:13:12 > 0:13:21weapons without Russian knowledge, if not authority?To begin with, the
0:13:21 > 0:13:26Syrian Arab Republic, the government, has got rid of all its
0:13:26 > 0:13:30chemical weapons and that has been recognised by international
0:13:30 > 0:13:37institutions. You referred to chlorine, Chlorine is not a chemical
0:13:37 > 0:13:42weapon, technically.So chlorine would be fine to use?No, of course
0:13:42 > 0:13:46not. But it is known that some opposition groups have been using
0:13:46 > 0:13:50chlorine.You have said that there is a probability that the EU will
0:13:50 > 0:13:56lift sanctions on Russia this year. They've only just extended them,
0:13:56 > 0:14:00unanimously, what makes you say that?Well, of course, I'm not going
0:14:00 > 0:14:06to speculate when the EU will take any decision on that or any other
0:14:06 > 0:14:13issue, it is up to them, but what I sense is that there is growing
0:14:13 > 0:14:21understanding with in the European Union of the need to reconsider its
0:14:21 > 0:14:23position on those so-called sanctions.Now they were put in
0:14:23 > 0:14:26place until there was full implementation of the Minsk
0:14:26 > 0:14:32agreement...No. They will put in place originally in order to
0:14:32 > 0:14:36convince all parties concerned, including Russia, to start
0:14:36 > 0:14:41negotiations. And that happened in February 20 15. So those sanctions
0:14:41 > 0:14:47that had been imposed the year before in 2014 should have been
0:14:47 > 0:14:53lifted there and then.
0:14:53 > 0:14:59You have had words from the German minister suggesting that Russia
0:14:59 > 0:15:06should be rewarded if the ceasefire holds which it has not done in
0:15:06 > 0:15:13years. Is that your position? If Russia can ensure that separatists
0:15:13 > 0:15:18in the east and those on the Ukrainian side can hold a ceasefire
0:15:18 > 0:15:25than the sanctions should be lifted? We are not negotiating this issue of
0:15:25 > 0:15:30sanctions with the EU, the US or anybody else. It is not up for
0:15:30 > 0:15:45negotiation. The EU has drawn itself into a corner with those decisions.
0:15:45 > 0:15:52The moment the EU managers to collect enough political will to
0:15:52 > 0:15:57reconsider its position and pull itself back from that corner, they
0:15:57 > 0:16:03will know where to find us.You believe that even without a
0:16:03 > 0:16:08ceasefire, the sanctions should be lifted?There is a ceasefire,
0:16:08 > 0:16:14technically speaking.In name only. There are numerous violations.
0:16:14 > 0:16:24Unfortunately. Like in Syria, you can never have a watertight
0:16:24 > 0:16:29ceasefire in a conflict like this. You may be having various EU
0:16:29 > 0:16:33countries coming around and the opposite in the US where there is a
0:16:33 > 0:16:39new threat of sanctions and a threat that if the sanctions that have been
0:16:39 > 0:16:46signed but yet to be implemented by President Trump, in the words of a
0:16:46 > 0:16:51chief executive, they say if those sanctions were imposed the Cold War
0:16:51 > 0:16:58would look like child's play.He is in a better position than myself to
0:16:58 > 0:17:05count the figures.He did not think they would be imposed. At the point
0:17:05 > 0:17:08he was making is that they are a very sizeable threat that would have
0:17:08 > 0:17:15a huge impact on Russia.So far the impact of any of those restrictive
0:17:15 > 0:17:27measures on the Russian economy has been palpable but not extensive. In
0:17:27 > 0:17:38some sectors of the Russian economy, particularly in agriculture, the
0:17:38 > 0:17:41producers are happy and asking the government to make sure that the
0:17:41 > 0:17:48sanctions day.So they are a good thing? Ringo and! Lets have more
0:17:48 > 0:17:56sanctions! Seriously? What is your view?That is what the producers
0:17:56 > 0:18:01think but I think that as a result of these sanctions our relation with
0:18:01 > 0:18:05the EU is in an abnormal state today. Not only the restrictive
0:18:05 > 0:18:12measures but the lack of proper dialogue and cooperation.You have
0:18:12 > 0:18:18been a top diplomat here for many years. Are things as bad now as they
0:18:18 > 0:18:28have ever been?I have seen a number of ups and downs. I will not say
0:18:28 > 0:18:34that the crisis in the Ukraine was the starting point of the current
0:18:34 > 0:18:42difficulties. Some of them predate the beginning of the crisis. I would
0:18:42 > 0:18:49say that the Ukrainian crisis could be more accurately described as a
0:18:49 > 0:18:58catalyst of those tendencies. Certainly there will be common
0:18:58 > 0:19:03effort needed to overcome the current state of affairs.They have
0:19:03 > 0:19:06gotten worse, not least because of what Russia has been charged with
0:19:06 > 0:19:11doing in the democracies of other countries. The accusations have
0:19:11 > 0:19:14increased over the years in the latest from the British Prime
0:19:14 > 0:19:20Minister, Theresa May, saying that Russia has deployed its state run
0:19:20 > 0:19:27media to deploy fake stories and Photoshop images to undermine our
0:19:27 > 0:19:30institutions to her message is simple. We know what you are doing
0:19:30 > 0:19:40and you will not succeed.I need to say at this point that evidently the
0:19:40 > 0:19:46virus of anti- Russian hysteria that was cultivated on the other side of
0:19:46 > 0:19:53the Atlantic due to domestic political complications has managed
0:19:53 > 0:20:01to somehow crossed the Atlantic and has infiltrated the minds of certain
0:20:01 > 0:20:09elements of political elites in European countries.So the fact that
0:20:09 > 0:20:12the suggestion that there are over 19 European countries where there
0:20:12 > 0:20:19have been accusations that Russia has interfered in the democracy is
0:20:19 > 0:20:22just paranoia on their part? Germany, France, Norway, Italy,
0:20:22 > 0:20:28Greece, Spain?Not a shred of evidence has appeared so far.
0:20:28 > 0:20:34Neither in the United States nor in any European nation. I would say it
0:20:34 > 0:20:43is more an issue of psychiatry rather than diplomacy.Is a
0:20:43 > 0:20:46different answer. You may accept that there is not a shred of
0:20:46 > 0:20:51evidence that it may be happening. Can you categorically it is not
0:20:51 > 0:20:57happening?Categorically, I can say it is not happening.That there is
0:20:57 > 0:21:01no Russian orchestrated attempts to influence the outcome of campaigns
0:21:01 > 0:21:08to the benefit of Russia?Certainly not.The effect of all of this, if,
0:21:08 > 0:21:12as you say, relations with countries are not as they should be.
0:21:12 > 0:21:20Unfortunately, that is correct. What effect does that have? You might say
0:21:20 > 0:21:27that I should feel frustrated that I am not.I feel the need to
0:21:27 > 0:21:37concentrate my effort and those of my colleagues here to work... I will
0:21:37 > 0:21:41tell you that in the last three or four years the volume of work has
0:21:41 > 0:21:48increased although... OK, we used to have a few summits a year and
0:21:48 > 0:21:57numerous ministerial meetings. Not since 2014. However we need to
0:21:57 > 0:22:01continue to represent Russian policy and interest and defend Russian
0:22:01 > 0:22:07interests.When do you have meetings with your counterparts here in
0:22:07 > 0:22:14Brussels? Are they frosty than they used to be?Some of the Marr but I
0:22:14 > 0:22:19would say that as a minority. Mostly... Particularly when you
0:22:19 > 0:22:26discuss something one to one it is a normal discussion like we used to
0:22:26 > 0:22:32have.The exception is when they get together. The arrival of President
0:22:32 > 0:22:37Trump in the White House, he has been there for a year, has affected
0:22:37 > 0:22:47the way that different EU nations the rush hour?As I told you, this
0:22:47 > 0:22:51virus of anti- Russian hysteria that was born in the United States,
0:22:51 > 0:22:59cultivated perhaps, I am not an expert in US domestic policies, but
0:22:59 > 0:23:05cultivated by those who lost the election, it has somehow managed to
0:23:05 > 0:23:13cross the Atlantic and found some fertile ground in some part of
0:23:13 > 0:23:20European countries.What I was wondering about was whether
0:23:20 > 0:23:24President Trump in the White House move EU countries are turning more
0:23:24 > 0:23:29to Russia because he is perhaps less removed from the international scene
0:23:29 > 0:23:37than his predecessors.I would say that we are in for cooperation, both
0:23:37 > 0:23:43with a European Union countries and with the United States and others.
0:23:43 > 0:23:49But in the case of the United States it takes two to tango and in the
0:23:49 > 0:23:55case of the European Union it takes 29, so far.Thank you for coming on
0:23:55 > 0:24:03HARDtalk.