0:00:09 > 0:00:11I'm Babita Sharma with BBC World News.
0:00:11 > 0:00:12Our top story.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15One of Japan's largest digital currency exchanges will refund
0:00:15 > 0:00:17around half a billion dollars of virtual assets lost
0:00:17 > 0:00:25in a hacking attack.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27One of the country's biggest exchanges, Coincheck,
0:00:27 > 0:00:30says it will use its own money to reimburse customers
0:00:30 > 0:00:32who lost their NEM cryptocurrency coins on Friday.
0:00:32 > 0:00:33Navalny, Navalny!
0:00:33 > 0:00:35Thousands rally in support of the Russian opposition leader,
0:00:35 > 0:00:37Alexei Navalny who's been released after being detained
0:00:37 > 0:00:38by police in Moscow.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40And this video is trending on BBC.com.
0:00:40 > 0:00:47Right now, the Grammy Awards get under way in New York.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50There's expected to be a focus on sexual harassment -
0:00:50 > 0:00:52an issue much in the entertainment news in recent months.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54That's all from me now.
0:00:54 > 0:01:12Stay with BBC World News.
0:01:12 > 0:01:19. But first is a talk. -- can't talk.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Zeinab Badawi.
0:01:23 > 0:01:29My guest is the deputy president of South Africa, Cyril Ramaphosa. This
0:01:29 > 0:01:33is his first interview with the BBC since he became president of the
0:01:33 > 0:01:40ruling ANC. He could also become president of South Africa very soon,
0:01:40 > 0:01:46if Jacob Zuma heeds calls to resign early. But is Cyril Ramaphosa and
0:01:46 > 0:01:50ANC stalwart and wealthy businessmen the right person to lead a new South
0:01:50 > 0:02:13Africa, a country mired in corruption and cronyism?
0:02:13 > 0:02:15Deputy President Cyril Ramaphosa, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:02:15 > 0:02:16Thank you very much.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18It is good to be here.
0:02:18 > 0:02:20How worried are you about corruption in South Africa?
0:02:20 > 0:02:24Deeply worried, because corruption tends to be a very negative action
0:02:24 > 0:02:26that is taken by corrupters against the nation.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29It impedes growth, it is something that takes away the resources that
0:02:29 > 0:02:31are meant to advance the lives of our people,
0:02:31 > 0:02:36and it puts it in the hands of a few, and it is a criminal act,
0:02:36 > 0:02:39and that is why I have been determined that we should
0:02:39 > 0:02:42rid our country of corruption, because it has become all pervasive.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44The good thing, though, is that we have identified it,
0:02:44 > 0:02:47and we are now taking action against it.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50If you were serious about taking action, I put this to you,
0:02:50 > 0:02:53when you became leader of the ANC in December,
0:02:53 > 0:02:55investor confidence in South Africa shot up.
0:02:55 > 0:03:05It would shoot up even more if you were president, wouldn't it?
0:03:05 > 0:03:13I guess, yes, there would be such a response, because my campaign
0:03:13 > 0:03:16message leading up to the December conference when I was elected
0:03:16 > 0:03:19was pivoted around corruption, not because it was so much just
0:03:19 > 0:03:22to get elected, but it was a national issue that people wanted
0:03:22 > 0:03:36action to be taken on.
0:03:37 > 0:03:38An urgent matter?
0:03:38 > 0:03:39Yes.
0:03:39 > 0:03:40An urgent matter.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43Therefore, I put it to you, why doesn't Jacob Zuma go?
0:03:43 > 0:03:46You want him to go as soon as possible?
0:03:46 > 0:03:48Since I was elected, we are in a transitional period.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52The transitional period means he has still got 18 months to go and I have
0:03:52 > 0:03:57been elected as leader of the party.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59Will he serve that 18 months?
0:03:59 > 0:04:01In this transitional period, we are looking at all options,
0:04:02 > 0:04:04various options, and the people of South Africa are talking.
0:04:04 > 0:04:08Many say he should go, others say, no, he should not go now.
0:04:08 > 0:04:09What do you think?
0:04:09 > 0:04:12I think we should manage it so carefully that whatever we do
0:04:12 > 0:04:15should be in the interests of South Africans.
0:04:15 > 0:04:21It should advance...
0:04:21 > 0:04:24But we know what that is, though, with due respect,
0:04:24 > 0:04:25Mr Deputy President.
0:04:25 > 0:04:28If it is in the interests of South Africans, then it
0:04:28 > 0:04:31would mean that the decade-long rule of Jacob Zuma, where we have seen
0:04:31 > 0:04:33accusations of cronyism, the corruption, the economy
0:04:33 > 0:04:37going down, it is obvious, it is a no-brainer, he has to go
0:04:37 > 0:04:39as soon as possible.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42Would you be so kind as to spell that out and say,
0:04:42 > 0:04:46yes, I agree with you, Zeinab?
0:04:46 > 0:04:47No, no.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50I agree that what we should do, we should ensure that the growth
0:04:50 > 0:04:53that would be engendered by this new era coming should happen,
0:04:53 > 0:04:57and it should happen so that it advances the people of our country,
0:04:57 > 0:05:06and therefore, my task as president of the ANC,
0:05:06 > 0:05:09together with my other five colleagues who are part
0:05:09 > 0:05:22of the Top Six, is to manage this transitional period.
0:05:22 > 0:05:24We have been mandated by the National Executive Committee
0:05:24 > 0:05:25to navigate around this matter.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27It is a delicate matter.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30You have said that his exit is to be handled with delicacy,
0:05:30 > 0:05:33and that it must not be dealt in a humiliating fashion,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36that he should not be sacked in a humiliating way,
0:05:36 > 0:05:38nor should he perhaps face a protracted impeachment
0:05:38 > 0:05:39process in parliament.
0:05:39 > 0:05:39Yes.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42So what is the nature of your negotiations with Jacob
0:05:42 > 0:05:42Zuma?
0:05:42 > 0:05:43What does he want?
0:05:43 > 0:05:46Immunity from prosecution, for example, has he asked for that?
0:05:46 > 0:05:49Well, that has not been spelt out by him, but what we're looking
0:05:50 > 0:05:51at are all these issues...
0:05:52 > 0:05:53He has not spelt that out?
0:05:53 > 0:05:55Let's just clarify that.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58No, no, he hasn't spelt that out.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00Because there are lots of allegations about state capture
0:06:01 > 0:06:03and his relationship with certain business people in South Africa.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06He has not said, I would like immunity from prosecution?
0:06:06 > 0:06:09No, President Zuma has not said he wants immunity from prosecution,
0:06:09 > 0:06:12and as it is now, there are quite a number of charges that
0:06:13 > 0:06:15are being looked at which could be preferred against him,
0:06:15 > 0:06:17so he has not asked us that.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19But what we are looking at...
0:06:19 > 0:06:22Can I just ask, suppose, just to take it down the line,
0:06:22 > 0:06:25he was to stand trial, as you say, there are these allegations,
0:06:25 > 0:06:27and I am not prejudging anything...
0:06:27 > 0:06:27Yes.
0:06:27 > 0:06:31But if he were to go on trial and then to be found guilty,
0:06:31 > 0:06:34and if you were president by then, you could exercise your presidential
0:06:34 > 0:06:34pardon.
0:06:35 > 0:06:36Would you pardon him?
0:06:36 > 0:06:39We have the rule of law in our country, and people always
0:06:39 > 0:06:41want to see justice done, without fear, without favour,
0:06:41 > 0:06:44without prejudice, so whatever will need to be done,
0:06:44 > 0:06:56to President Zuma, will have to follow the due process
0:06:56 > 0:06:59of the law, a process that anyone who is a South African will be
0:06:59 > 0:07:05subjected to, so that we put aside.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09We deal with the present and what could be the immediate
0:07:09 > 0:07:11future, and when we engage with President Zuma,
0:07:11 > 0:07:13we are obviously pointing out the various risks and
0:07:13 > 0:07:15challenges that lie ahead.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18Have you talked to him personally, just the two of you,
0:07:18 > 0:07:20with nobody around, and spelt things out to him?
0:07:20 > 0:07:24Yes, I have spoken to President Zuma and we are continuing to be
0:07:24 > 0:07:29engaged in discussions.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31And he understands the severity of the situation?
0:07:31 > 0:07:33I would think that yes, he does.
0:07:33 > 0:07:35Anybody who is president would understand the challenges
0:07:36 > 0:07:40and the severity of the situation that we are in.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43There were reports in the press that he had been recalled
0:07:43 > 0:07:46by the ANC's executive committee which is made up of well over
0:07:46 > 0:07:48a hundred members, and then it was retracted.
0:07:49 > 0:07:51This is what the ANC secretary general, Ace Magashule,
0:07:51 > 0:07:54said days ago, that the party's national executive had discussed
0:07:54 > 0:07:56Zuma's recall, but he said on the 22nd of January,
0:07:56 > 0:08:03there isn't any rumour or decision to remove Jacob Zuma.
0:08:03 > 0:08:04There are no timelines.
0:08:04 > 0:08:05We can't put timelines.
0:08:05 > 0:08:09I don't think we can be dictated to by anyone on how to deal
0:08:09 > 0:08:10with the matter.
0:08:10 > 0:08:11That is true.
0:08:11 > 0:08:12That is true?
0:08:12 > 0:08:13There are no timelines?
0:08:13 > 0:08:14Well, not really.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18We are looking at it within the time frame that we have got for him
0:08:18 > 0:08:21to serve his term out, but obviously, things have to be
0:08:21 > 0:08:23handled as quickly and as swiftly as possible,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26so the National Executive Committee did not take a decision
0:08:26 > 0:08:27on this matter.
0:08:27 > 0:08:30What it did decide on is that the Top Six officials must
0:08:30 > 0:08:33engage with President Zuma and deal with this transitional matter,
0:08:33 > 0:08:35which is giving rise to a number of challenges.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38So, and I have been saying to the nation, firstly,
0:08:38 > 0:08:41we do not want to disrespect him, we do not want to humiliate
0:08:42 > 0:08:45President Zuma, but we will deal with the matter, and we need time.
0:08:45 > 0:08:46What is that matter?
0:08:46 > 0:08:58The matter of his departure?
0:08:58 > 0:09:01Of course, of course, because we are in a transitional
0:09:01 > 0:09:03period.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06You keep on saying "transitional period", but everybody wants to know
0:09:06 > 0:09:07how long that transitional period is.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10I put to you what Trevor Manuel, former finance minister
0:09:10 > 0:09:13of South Africa, has said of Jacob Zuma, he has reduced some
0:09:13 > 0:09:16of South Africa's key institutions and state industries to rubble
0:09:16 > 0:09:19and been openly contemptuous of the courts, and these things
0:09:19 > 0:09:20are piling up.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22Surely, Mr Deputy President, the longer Jacob Zuma stays
0:09:22 > 0:09:25in office, the more people lose confidence in South Africa?
0:09:25 > 0:09:27Christine Lagarde, the head of the IMF, has downgraded
0:09:27 > 0:09:30the forecast for South Africa's economy, growth in the South African
0:09:30 > 0:09:41economy, citing political uncertainty.
0:09:41 > 0:09:41Yes.
0:09:42 > 0:09:44You have said to me, I am worried about corruption,
0:09:44 > 0:09:48I am worried about the state of our economy, and I say to you,
0:09:48 > 0:09:52one very simple solution would be for you, as head of the ANC,
0:09:52 > 0:09:58to say, Jacob Zuma, you must go, and you must go now.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00Yes, a new dawn is on the horizon.
0:10:01 > 0:10:03We are now involved in a new era in South Africa,
0:10:03 > 0:10:06there is a new leadership, and this new leadership is just
0:10:06 > 0:10:10barely a month old in its position, and we are dealing with this matter
0:10:10 > 0:10:13and obviously the key matter that everyone wants to see addressed
0:10:13 > 0:10:25is the tenure that President Zuma still has to serve out.
0:10:25 > 0:10:27Constitutionally speaking, he still has 18 months.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30And within this 18 months, obviously a lot of things can
0:10:30 > 0:10:34happen, but he and I have agreed that we are going to be meeting
0:10:34 > 0:10:37regularly, to discuss matters, but it dictates, and by definition,
0:10:37 > 0:10:39it means that in the course of this, we are also
0:10:40 > 0:10:41going to discuss the transition.
0:10:41 > 0:10:47How long is it going to last?
0:10:47 > 0:10:48How is he feeling?
0:10:48 > 0:10:49Is he under pressure?
0:10:49 > 0:10:51Is he feeling very anxious?
0:10:51 > 0:10:53He must be, with all this stuff swirling around him.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56Well, obviously, any normal human being would be anxious,
0:10:56 > 0:10:59would be concerned about all this, so he is naturally feeling anxious,
0:10:59 > 0:11:02and he wants mattered to be handled in a way...
0:11:02 > 0:11:11That they will be handled carefully.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15And I am saying, my key interest is to move the country forward.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18It is not so much about what happens to an individual,
0:11:18 > 0:11:19it is what the interests...
0:11:19 > 0:11:20Really?
0:11:20 > 0:11:23Even if that individual is the current head of state who has
0:11:23 > 0:11:25presided over what has been described as state capture,
0:11:25 > 0:11:33just the interests of the few, of the state's assets?
0:11:33 > 0:11:36You see, the state capture issue is now being handled.
0:11:36 > 0:11:38A commission of enquiry has been instituted,
0:11:38 > 0:11:41has been appointed, and is now going to go into the depths.
0:11:41 > 0:11:43There has been state capture, you say?
0:11:43 > 0:11:45Of course there has been state capture.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48Everyone agrees that our state was captured by corrupt elements,
0:11:48 > 0:11:50by people who purported to be close to the president,
0:11:50 > 0:11:53who have been doing really bad things in getting
0:11:53 > 0:11:54into all and many state institutions.
0:11:54 > 0:11:58I wonder, Mr Deputy President, if your hands are tied as leader
0:11:58 > 0:12:01of the ANC, because let's face it, in the leadership contest,
0:12:01 > 0:12:03with Nkosazana Dlamini Zuma, former wife of Jacob Zuma,
0:12:03 > 0:12:17you only won very narrowly, 179 votes out of the 5,000 cast?
0:12:17 > 0:12:17Yes.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20You are presiding over a divided party, a divided executive
0:12:20 > 0:12:22committee, where there are lots of supporters
0:12:22 > 0:12:26of Jacob Zuma, and you're thinking, I cannot really move as fast as I'd
0:12:26 > 0:12:27like, my hands are tied.
0:12:27 > 0:12:35That is the state of affairs, isn't it?
0:12:35 > 0:12:40Well, it may well look like that, but when we emerged out of that
0:12:40 > 0:12:42conference, we came out with our commitment underpinned
0:12:42 > 0:12:48by two things, unity and renewal.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51Unity means that we're going to unite all the different
0:12:51 > 0:12:53strands within the ANC and work together, and everyone
0:12:53 > 0:13:02committed to that.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04It is a battle for you, isn't it?
0:13:04 > 0:13:06Admit it, it is a battle for you?
0:13:06 > 0:13:09Well, it is a battle because we come from different sides,
0:13:09 > 0:13:13different strands, so my task as president of the ANC is to pull
0:13:13 > 0:13:15everyone together, to unite everyone, so that we all move
0:13:16 > 0:13:19in the same direction, and so far, I think we have done pretty OK.
0:13:19 > 0:13:20Really?
0:13:20 > 0:13:22Because William Gumede, chair of the Democracy Works Foundation
0:13:22 > 0:13:24in South Africa, a highly respected South African,
0:13:24 > 0:13:27says, the corrupt side control the party, and are going to protect
0:13:27 > 0:13:31Zuma at all costs.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34Cyril Ramaphosa's challenge will be managing this while getting started
0:13:34 > 0:13:36on reforms which will be slower, not big bang.
0:13:36 > 0:13:39I put it to you again, your hands are tied.
0:13:39 > 0:13:41You are not in control of your party?
0:13:41 > 0:13:44Well, you know, as president of the African National Congress,
0:13:44 > 0:13:48my job is to unite the party, to unite the party, to execute
0:13:48 > 0:13:50the resolutions that are taken by the party,
0:13:50 > 0:13:53and one of those is to fight corruption, and already we have
0:13:53 > 0:13:56shown our hand.
0:13:56 > 0:14:01We have already started acting against people who are corrupt,
0:14:01 > 0:14:05we have had a commission appointed, we have moved into one
0:14:05 > 0:14:08of our state-owned enterprises which had been captured,
0:14:08 > 0:14:11and we are rooting out people who are corrupt,
0:14:11 > 0:14:14and we are going to be ensuring that the criminal justice system
0:14:14 > 0:14:17officials do arrest people who are corrupt.
0:14:17 > 0:14:19Our intent on that should never be doubted.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23We are going to take action against those who have acted wrongly
0:14:23 > 0:14:27against the people of our country.
0:14:27 > 0:14:29That is going to be a full-time job, isn't it?
0:14:29 > 0:14:33Prince Mashele, co-author of a book called The Fall Of The ANC,
0:14:33 > 0:14:36says your party is rotten in its entirety.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39So it is not just accusations against Jacob Zuma and those
0:14:39 > 0:14:44around him, it is right across the party?
0:14:44 > 0:14:46Well, we allowed corruption to continue growing in the party.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49We have recognised that this is a problem, we have decided
0:14:49 > 0:14:53that we are going to root corruption out, and it is not everyone
0:14:53 > 0:14:54in the ANC who is corrupt.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57There are some really good people in South Africa,
0:14:57 > 0:15:00in the African National Congress, and that is what is giving us
0:15:00 > 0:15:04the platform, and the levers to root out those who are perpetrating wrong
0:15:04 > 0:15:06things against the people of South Africa.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08OK, but I put this again to you.
0:15:08 > 0:15:11I know I am giving you all these people who are saying this,
0:15:11 > 0:15:15that and the other but it is important to show that these
0:15:15 > 0:15:16are very serious people saying this.
0:15:16 > 0:15:26Sure.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28Former South African president Kgalema Motlanthe said of the ANC
0:15:28 > 0:15:31leadership only in April, over time, they have countenanced Zuma's
0:15:31 > 0:15:33mistakes and actually defended him, and in the process,
0:15:33 > 0:15:35they are complicit in the wrongdoing.
0:15:35 > 0:15:37Do you feel complicit, because you could have
0:15:37 > 0:15:42done something sooner?
0:15:42 > 0:15:46I think many of us in the ANC, and as we have admitted publicly,
0:15:46 > 0:15:49we admit that in the past, we have spoken about there have been
0:15:49 > 0:15:52perceptions of corruption, now we know that there has been real
0:15:52 > 0:15:56corruption, and this...
0:15:56 > 0:15:58What do you mean "now"?
0:15:58 > 0:15:59When did you find out?
0:15:59 > 0:16:03I mean, we all knew about it and we do not even live in South
0:16:03 > 0:16:03Africa.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05No, no, no, of course.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08But when it really started coming out in facts and figures,
0:16:08 > 0:16:10putting figures to how much had been stolen,
0:16:10 > 0:16:13it came out when the e-mails started emerging, and then we realised
0:16:13 > 0:16:17that this is no longer perception, this is real, and it is when a good
0:16:17 > 0:16:19number of us then started talking against corruption,
0:16:19 > 0:16:23so yes, we may be complicit in not having spoken out at an earlier
0:16:23 > 0:16:26time, but once we knew the facts and figures,
0:16:26 > 0:16:29we have now stood on our two feet and we have been speaking
0:16:29 > 0:16:44against it, and that is what has buoyed the mood in the country.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47People are saying, now we know there has been so much corruption,
0:16:47 > 0:16:50we now know the figures and the amounts and the people,
0:16:50 > 0:16:54now action is going to be taken, and it is that that we should focus
0:16:54 > 0:16:56attention on, and say, what does the future portend?
0:16:56 > 0:17:00The future is about taking action against people who have been harming
0:17:00 > 0:17:05the interests of our people as a whole.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09So, we all know that you've got to take certain steps to restore
0:17:09 > 0:17:11confidence in South Africa, build up business.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13You have been talking to lots of people here.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17Are you the right person to do that, for a country where you have got one
0:17:17 > 0:17:19in four people unemployed, youth unemployment particularly
0:17:19 > 0:17:21is very, very high, people are struggling,
0:17:21 > 0:17:2717 million out of 52 million people are on some kind of state benefits.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30You know, the cost of living is extremely high, and you are,
0:17:30 > 0:17:32to put it bluntly, an extremely wealthy businessman.
0:17:32 > 0:17:36Are you really that kind of person who can empathise with the plight
0:17:36 > 0:17:44of the ordinary South African?
0:17:44 > 0:17:47Throughout my life, even as a trade unionist and a student leader,
0:17:47 > 0:17:50I have always espoused principles that seek to advance the interests
0:17:50 > 0:17:53of our people as a whole, and the confidence that has been
0:17:54 > 0:17:56invested in me by the membership of the African National Congress,
0:17:57 > 0:18:01and by the people of South Africa, puts me in a position where I have
0:18:01 > 0:18:04to act in the interests of advancing the lives of the people of South
0:18:04 > 0:18:18Africa.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21So yes, as a collective, working together with others,
0:18:21 > 0:18:22we are well-positioned.
0:18:22 > 0:18:23You are well positioned, are you?
0:18:23 > 0:18:27I believe I am well positioned.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29So there you are, the son of a rural policeman,
0:18:29 > 0:18:33you know, trained as a lawyer, here you are in your mid-60s,
0:18:33 > 0:18:35and Nelson Mandela wanted you to be his successor,
0:18:35 > 0:18:38it did not happen, and so you went into business,
0:18:38 > 0:18:40and you are a beneficiary of the Black Economic Empowerment
0:18:41 > 0:18:43programme and that makes some people feel a bit uncomfortable.
0:18:43 > 0:18:47I put it to you that Moeletsi Mbeki, an academic and younger brother
0:18:47 > 0:18:50of former president Thabo Mbeki, says, Cyril Ramaphosa was the person
0:18:50 > 0:19:07who wrote the black economic empowerment law in South Africa.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10This is the main driver of corruption in this country.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13Cyril Ramaphosa wrote the law that created this mayhem of corruption
0:19:13 > 0:19:15under the cloak of black advancement, making it less credible
0:19:15 > 0:19:18that he can be the man to tackle cronyism.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21A long quote, I know, but one that really makes the point.
0:19:21 > 0:19:24Well, that is the view of an analyst, somebody who sits
0:19:24 > 0:19:28on the sidelines, and many of us are involved in doing the actual
0:19:28 > 0:19:30work, and have been doing so for many, many years.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34And many of the things that we are involved in are working
0:19:34 > 0:19:37to advance the lives of ordinary people, and none of the things that
0:19:37 > 0:19:40I have done in business have been aimed at, have been corrupt
0:19:40 > 0:19:42activities, they have been purely business engagements,
0:19:42 > 0:19:45and right now, I am well positioned, as president
0:19:45 > 0:19:47of the African National Congress, to advance the policies
0:19:47 > 0:19:50of the African National Congress, which are aimed at improving
0:19:50 > 0:20:15the lives of the people of South Africa.
0:20:15 > 0:20:16That, for me, is non-negotiable.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20It is something that I am going to make sure that it happens.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22However, you say, yes, there is no corruption around
0:20:22 > 0:20:25the business activities that you have been involved in,
0:20:25 > 0:20:28however, as a non-executive director of Lonmin, which owned the mine
0:20:28 > 0:20:30in Marikana, which in 2012, the miners went on strike,
0:20:31 > 0:20:3534 of them were shot dead by police, it did taint your image, didn't it?
0:20:35 > 0:20:35Mm-hm.
0:20:35 > 0:20:36Do you accept that?
0:20:36 > 0:20:46Mm-hm.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49Do you accept that it did taint your image,
0:20:49 > 0:20:52because you were seen as being on the side of business
0:20:52 > 0:20:54interests, and there were the striking miners?
0:20:54 > 0:20:58Yes, it did, but what I was seeking to do was to prevent further deaths
0:20:58 > 0:20:59from taking place.
0:20:59 > 0:21:01And the commission that was instituted looked at everything that
0:21:01 > 0:21:02I did.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05The Farlam Commission absolutely said you were not at all complicit
0:21:05 > 0:21:07or responsible, but there have been criticisms,
0:21:07 > 0:21:09for example, that you did not apologise at the time
0:21:10 > 0:21:13for the deaths, and in fact, you issued an apology last year,
0:21:13 > 0:21:16but this is what the lawyer for the arrested and wounded miners,
0:21:16 > 0:21:17Andries Nkoma, has said.
0:21:17 > 0:21:19Your apology is contemptuous and opportunistic,
0:21:19 > 0:21:21because it was issued when you were seeking the leadership
0:21:22 > 0:21:22of the ANC.
0:21:22 > 0:21:29That is essentially the point.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32Well, that is also the view of someone who is sitting
0:21:32 > 0:21:33on the other side.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35But it is a valid observation?
0:21:35 > 0:21:37Well, I am working with Winnie Mandela.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39Winnie Mandela, who has been most concerned about the interests
0:21:40 > 0:21:43of our people, and I am working with her, we are going to go
0:21:43 > 0:21:47to the widows of the miners who were killed, and we are going
0:21:47 > 0:21:49to engage with them, and watch this space and see
0:21:50 > 0:21:51what is going to ensue from there.
0:21:52 > 0:21:54Financial reparations, compensation and that kind of thing?
0:21:54 > 0:21:56Well, government is working on that, because they have instituted
0:21:56 > 0:21:59a lawsuit against the government for the deaths of their breadwinners,
0:21:59 > 0:22:01and that is in process.
0:22:01 > 0:22:09I think a good outcome will come out of all of this.
0:22:09 > 0:22:10All right.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14So here you are leading the ANC and you say you want to bring
0:22:14 > 0:22:17South Africa back again, but you lost votes in the last
0:22:17 > 0:22:20elections and we saw Julius Malema, one of the, you know,
0:22:20 > 0:22:23bright lights of the ANC, leaving and setting up his own party,
0:22:23 > 0:22:24the Economic Freedom Fighters.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26We have seen the ANC haemorrhage votes to both
0:22:27 > 0:22:28the Democratic Alliance under Mmusi Maimane,
0:22:28 > 0:22:30and also the Economic Freedom Fighters.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33How are you going to rebuild people's confidence in the ANC,
0:22:33 > 0:22:36because there are those who say, look, it has been in power
0:22:36 > 0:22:50since 1994, a spell in opposition could do it good?
0:22:50 > 0:22:53This moment that we have arrived at, with a new leadership,
0:22:53 > 0:22:56with the new policies that have come out of the conference with,
0:22:56 > 0:22:59gives us a great opportunity to address the doubts that many
0:22:59 > 0:23:00people had in the past.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03In the last election, yes, we did lose votes,
0:23:03 > 0:23:06because they thought that the ANC had lost its way.
0:23:06 > 0:23:06And it has?
0:23:07 > 0:23:08The ANC is back.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11The ANC is back with a bang, and that is being registered
0:23:11 > 0:23:13in the hearts and the minds of our people.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16Many people, right now, are saying, our ANC is back,
0:23:16 > 0:23:19we have got a leadership that is going to take us forward,
0:23:19 > 0:23:23and many people, Zeinab, are saying, I did not vote in the last election,
0:23:23 > 0:23:25but right now, we have got a new leadership,
0:23:26 > 0:23:30I have my vote in my hand and I'm going to register it in favour
0:23:30 > 0:23:42of the ANC.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45So there is a new mood in the country, and it is not
0:23:45 > 0:23:47euphoria, it is based on principle.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50People are saying the ANC is back to the values and principles that it
0:23:51 > 0:23:53espoused in the past, values that were subscribed
0:23:53 > 0:23:55to by Nelson Mandela and Oliver Tambo and many others.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59As things stand, President Jacob Zuma is due to make the state
0:23:59 > 0:24:01of the nation address in early February.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03Yes, ma'am.
0:24:03 > 0:24:07Is he going to make that state of address or is it going to be
0:24:07 > 0:24:08President Cyril Ramaphosa?
0:24:08 > 0:24:11That is part of the transitional issues that we are dealing with.
0:24:11 > 0:24:13Could you give me a straight answer?
0:24:13 > 0:24:15Will it be President Ramaphosa or President Zuma who makes
0:24:16 > 0:24:30the state of the nation address?
0:24:30 > 0:24:32President Ramaphosa is president of the African National Congress
0:24:32 > 0:24:34and deputy president of the republic.
0:24:34 > 0:24:34As things stand.
0:24:34 > 0:24:41As things stand, that is what it is.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44The state of the nation address, will it be you or Zuma?
0:24:44 > 0:24:48We have got to deal with the reality at hand right now.
0:24:48 > 0:24:51And the reality at hand is that President Zuma is the president
0:24:51 > 0:24:52of the republic.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55We are dealing with matters that have to address the transition,
0:24:55 > 0:24:57and let's see what happens, as time goes on.
0:24:57 > 0:25:00Deputy President Cyril Ramaphosa of South Africa, thank you very much
0:25:00 > 0:25:01indeed for coming on HARDtalk.
0:25:02 > 0:25:03Thank you very much, Zeinab, thank you.
0:25:03 > 0:25:25Wonderful talking to you.