0:00:01 > 0:00:10Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:19Welcome to HARDtalk from the World Economic Forum in Davos. Argentina
0:00:19 > 0:00:24says it wants to re-engage with the world, especially to its presidency
0:00:24 > 0:00:29at the G20. It wants better ties with Washington after many years of
0:00:29 > 0:00:35a poor relationship. My guess Argentina's Foreign Minister Jorge
0:00:35 > 0:00:41Faurie. Seven months into the job, what is his assessment of ties with
0:00:41 > 0:00:44the Trump administration which, after all, has been unsettling its
0:00:44 > 0:00:49neighbours in Latin America.
0:01:02 > 0:01:05Foreign Minister Jorge Faurie, welcome to HARDtalk.Thank you very
0:01:05 > 0:01:12much for inviting me.Two years ago when the president took office he
0:01:12 > 0:01:16said he wanted to improve relations with the world and Argentina's
0:01:16 > 0:01:25neighbours. Can you encapsulate for is what that means? We are trying to
0:01:25 > 0:01:31reopen I'd -- Argentina to the world.We are trying to have
0:01:31 > 0:01:33deliberations with everybody, particularly with our neighbours. We
0:01:33 > 0:01:38are trying to see what we can do with each one independent of the
0:01:38 > 0:01:41ideological position that they have. The big one of course is the United
0:01:41 > 0:01:51States and your president said he wanted to charge a new cause with
0:01:51 > 0:01:54Washington, the relations between Argentina and the United States have
0:01:54 > 0:02:00been extremely poor. Are they good now?We have done a lot of work
0:02:00 > 0:02:08together, both countries. We have been open in our political dialogue.
0:02:08 > 0:02:16Were having good economic relations. In a few days we will receive Rex
0:02:16 > 0:02:24Tillerson. We have had the Vice President visit. We have a dialogue
0:02:24 > 0:02:31which is constructive. Recognising the differences that we have.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34Constructive dialogue with the United States at a time when you
0:02:34 > 0:02:37have Donald Trump in the White House. He says he wants to build a
0:02:37 > 0:02:41wall to keep the Mexicans out. A former centrist Colombian President
0:02:41 > 0:02:47said that this is a wall that will separate cars Latin Americans from
0:02:47 > 0:02:51the United States because if you affect Mexico, you affect Latin
0:02:51 > 0:02:56America. Argentina wants to hug him but he wants to keep the region at
0:02:56 > 0:03:01arm 's length.We have good relations with all the countries.
0:03:01 > 0:03:07The wall is not in place. We are discussing the bilateral relations
0:03:07 > 0:03:11of Argentina in dialogue and politics but also importantly for
0:03:11 > 0:03:17us, dialogue for business. What we can sell to the US and what they
0:03:17 > 0:03:21want to sell to us.This is an important market. I will come to
0:03:21 > 0:03:26economics in a moment but I'm just saying that you say you want to have
0:03:26 > 0:03:30a warm relationship with the United States.I did not say that...You do
0:03:30 > 0:03:37not want warm ties with the United States? You want a cold
0:03:37 > 0:03:40relationship?We have a constructive relationship from all countries and
0:03:40 > 0:03:45we learn from each about what we can do. I think we have established,
0:03:45 > 0:03:48President Macri has established a dialogue with President Trump that
0:03:48 > 0:03:52is good and it allows us to call whenever we need to say we have a
0:03:52 > 0:03:58problem that we need to solve.One problematic thing between Latin
0:03:58 > 0:04:02America, South America, Central America and Washington, sometimes it
0:04:02 > 0:04:05is the use of President Trump's colourful language. For example, it
0:04:05 > 0:04:10he did not want migrants from countries like El Salvador and Haiti
0:04:10 > 0:04:28saying that they are ? - whole countries. -- F -- s-hole countries.
0:04:28 > 0:04:37We share with all the Latin American countries, were opened to migrants
0:04:37 > 0:04:40and we respect the entity of each country and the characteristic of
0:04:40 > 0:04:46each.It was offensive language, wasn't it?It is language that is
0:04:46 > 0:04:53not good for dialogue.You said we are open to immigration from
0:04:53 > 0:05:02countries in Latin America. That is not quite the case because in 2017,
0:05:02 > 0:05:06President Macri's government curbed immigration to Argentina from poorer
0:05:06 > 0:05:11countries in Latin America. He said his first concern was caring for
0:05:11 > 0:05:14Argentines, caring for ourselves. Where is your Latin American
0:05:14 > 0:05:22solidarity?In our country with emigration from Bolivia, Uruguay and
0:05:22 > 0:05:26Paraguay, Peru and Chile, we have plenty of people coming after the
0:05:26 > 0:05:30situation in Venezuela. We are country after 1942 has opened
0:05:30 > 0:05:37frontiers.What did he mean then? The president was referring to us
0:05:37 > 0:05:40not doing any military control because we have an open border and
0:05:40 > 0:05:49we do not struck -- restraint -- restrict the entry.It meant that
0:05:49 > 0:05:52newcomers from poorer countries in Latin America were not so welcome.
0:05:52 > 0:05:57In Latin America you have poor people, in all countries including
0:05:57 > 0:06:01Argentina. It is not against poor people, we just want to know who is
0:06:01 > 0:06:06coming and where they are from.It did provoke them reaction in the
0:06:06 > 0:06:10region. The president of Bolivia said that brothers, Latin American
0:06:10 > 0:06:15presidents, we cannot follow the immigration policies of the North. I
0:06:15 > 0:06:23mean, it sounds like... He may not have wanted to say but there is
0:06:23 > 0:06:28concern that he may be tried to follow Trump's America first policy.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31Bolivians working and living in Argentina and they are a
0:06:31 > 0:06:34constructive part of our society. The same goes for Peruvians and
0:06:34 > 0:06:38Paraguay and. Their own neighbourhoods in different areas of
0:06:38 > 0:06:46big cities in Argentina which are the Libyan Arab lion.Is the point
0:06:46 > 0:06:51wanted to make. This triggered a debate in the country.Some people
0:06:51 > 0:06:56wanted to make an issue of something which is not. I know which duped
0:06:56 > 0:07:01radio station you are referring to. The radio show host said that the
0:07:01 > 0:07:05government wants to die let the fact that a large share of us are
0:07:05 > 0:07:08children or grandchildren of immigrants, including President
0:07:08 > 0:07:19Macri himself.We are all descended from a boat here in Argentina. We
0:07:19 > 0:07:22have no particular issue of race, religion or whatever to make a
0:07:22 > 0:07:26difference. Migrants happen all the time in Argentina because we are
0:07:26 > 0:07:31migrants ourselves.You accept them that when President Macri said this
0:07:31 > 0:07:36it triggered a debate that created concern that you may be following
0:07:36 > 0:07:45Donald Trump's rhetoric.Some elements of the press, some for
0:07:45 > 0:07:48political reasons but it was not a societal issue.You see one a
0:07:48 > 0:07:53constructive dialogue with the United States. Andras Oppen
0:07:53 > 0:08:03Oppenheimer, a Latin American editor, he wrote in December that so
0:08:03 > 0:08:06far the Trump administration has only pursued a negative of gender
0:08:06 > 0:08:10towards the region, opposing trade, immigration and environmental
0:08:10 > 0:08:16agreements and cutting foreign aid without offering any constructive
0:08:16 > 0:08:22plans to improve hemispheric ties. It sounds you are extending the hand
0:08:22 > 0:08:26but it is not being reciprocated.I cannot speak about myself and my own
0:08:26 > 0:08:32situation. We have a constructive dialogue in terms of trade. We have
0:08:32 > 0:08:37investment from the American companies. We have been reinstated
0:08:37 > 0:08:44in the generalised system of preferences which lowers commercial
0:08:44 > 0:08:50barriers. Our dialogue with the United States is good.It has in the
0:08:50 > 0:08:58United imposed tariffs on Argentine bio diesel? We look to Europe and a
0:08:58 > 0:09:04second... Trade tariffs on Argentine bio diesel?This is something that
0:09:04 > 0:09:07happens with different countries to discuss how to construct the price
0:09:07 > 0:09:13of bio diesel. Week, the EU, they did the same. We went to the WTO and
0:09:13 > 0:09:18we won the panel. Now the Americans are doing this because there are
0:09:18 > 0:09:23people in the US who are still affected. We say we are not being
0:09:23 > 0:09:26affected the close you import from many other countries. Let's discuss
0:09:26 > 0:09:30this. This does not mean that the relationship is good or bad. It is a
0:09:30 > 0:09:36commercial issue.You just said that we want to open up trade.And we
0:09:36 > 0:09:42are.We are. Yet here you have the United States imposing tariffs.Were
0:09:42 > 0:09:48sending food, lemons, we are sending pork, were sending different things
0:09:48 > 0:09:52to the United States. We have our discussion concerning bio diesel.
0:09:52 > 0:09:59That is all. President Macri, before assuming the president ship was
0:09:59 > 0:10:06mirror of Buenos Aires and a former business associate of Donald Trump.
0:10:06 > 0:10:12Does not have a conflict of interest? Between him and his ties
0:10:12 > 0:10:18with Donald Trump?Many years ago they thought about building
0:10:18 > 0:10:22something together in New York.It did not happen at all. Is at all? I
0:10:22 > 0:10:27can tell you what the report say. Press reports say that when
0:10:27 > 0:10:30President Macri phone to Donald Trump to congratulate him on the
0:10:30 > 0:10:34coming president, Donald Trump's daughter was also on the phone.
0:10:34 > 0:10:42Donald Trump asked President Macri to approve construction of a $100
0:10:42 > 0:10:46million Trump Tower in Buenos Aires. I think that that is very
0:10:46 > 0:10:51far-fetched from the press.So that is not true. As leaders denied this
0:10:51 > 0:10:57assertion but can you tell us what happened?President Macri called him
0:10:57 > 0:11:01to congratulate him on his election and he remembered that they have
0:11:01 > 0:11:10been in touch sometimes and that is it. I know you, you know me, that is
0:11:10 > 0:11:14good. It is good to have someone that I know sitting in the White
0:11:14 > 0:11:20House.Cedar believer will create a conflict of interest?Not at all.
0:11:20 > 0:11:24Another aspect of your foreign Wallasey in Argentina is that you
0:11:24 > 0:11:28want to promote human rights and democracy in the region to bring an
0:11:28 > 0:11:31ethical dimensional to foreign policy. We do promote human rights.
0:11:31 > 0:11:36This is a long-standing position of Argentina after the ending of the
0:11:36 > 0:11:43military dictatorship. It is a permanent policy of all government
0:11:43 > 0:11:46in Argentina including mine.You have an ethical dimensional to
0:11:46 > 0:11:50foreign policy but when it comes to Venezuela and what is going on there
0:11:50 > 0:11:54and the President is that the president there is having and the
0:11:54 > 0:11:58protests and so on and so forth, are you not taking too tougher line
0:11:58 > 0:12:08about what to do on Argentina?What line do you take? You have the
0:12:08 > 0:12:14possibility of being elected to office, following your ideals, of
0:12:14 > 0:12:19having political rights and what is the point of this if you cannot feed
0:12:19 > 0:12:23yourself or have access to medicine. If you're a economy is collapsing
0:12:23 > 0:12:27and no-one is taking care of you. What is your Venezuelan policy then?
0:12:27 > 0:12:32Would you like to see a regime change?We want elections. Fair
0:12:32 > 0:12:37elections that should be done the sooner the better. But they must be
0:12:37 > 0:12:41prepared. A fairer election means that you have the government who can
0:12:41 > 0:12:45control the electoral college that will do the elections because if not
0:12:45 > 0:12:49it will certainly be rigged. This is something that not only Argentina
0:12:49 > 0:12:55but all of the member of the group of Lima are promoting. We want
0:12:55 > 0:13:00Venezuelan to return to democracy. And democracy as all countries
0:13:00 > 0:13:06recognise it.So you want to regime change?The elections must be free
0:13:06 > 0:13:12and so far the last election, the municipal ones, the state elections
0:13:12 > 0:13:17and the one now announced to come later on, they are not clear
0:13:17 > 0:13:22elections. It is not democratic system.In November last year
0:13:22 > 0:13:25President Macri said that we should bode well for Lombardo. The
0:13:25 > 0:13:29possession of your country is you want a full embargo on Venezuelan.
0:13:29 > 0:13:33It is quite difficult to change the situation in terms of having a clear
0:13:33 > 0:13:40election if the government still receives funds from oil. That as the
0:13:40 > 0:13:48market. If you want to see that the government pursues our modern
0:13:48 > 0:13:52democratic line you must emphasise this.
0:13:56 > 0:14:00Set in the United States not to take any more oil from the area.
0:14:00 > 0:14:05There were problems that made them need to resume the oil from
0:14:05 > 0:14:09Venezuela.The United States has not want to go that far by saying...
0:14:09 > 0:14:15They have taken measures of their own path, they are seizing all the
0:14:15 > 0:14:18assets that the leader has.You said there is so much hardship in
0:14:18 > 0:14:24Venezuela, people do not have enough to eat and so on, 95% of Venezuela's
0:14:24 > 0:14:30export revenue comes from the state owned oil company. It is obvious
0:14:30 > 0:14:33than what happens to the country what happens when you cut off that
0:14:33 > 0:14:38revenue.We want to call the attention to the change that has to
0:14:38 > 0:14:42be done for Venezuela to become more democratic.This is what would
0:14:42 > 0:14:47happen if there was a full embargo. Local NGOs in Venezuela are opposed
0:14:47 > 0:14:53to such a move. And economists said "Cutting off the Venezuelan
0:14:53 > 0:14:57government's access to dollars would leave the economy without the hard
0:14:57 > 0:15:03currency needed to pay for imports of food and medicine, starving the
0:15:03 > 0:15:08Venezuelan economy of its foreign currency earnings. It risks turning
0:15:08 > 0:15:13the country's current humanitarian crisis into a full-blown
0:15:13 > 0:15:17humanitarian catastrophe."The embargo is not going on.If it did
0:15:17 > 0:15:21happen that is what would happen. The Venezuelans are already in a
0:15:21 > 0:15:24catastrophe. They cannot be themselves, they do not have food.
0:15:24 > 0:15:28But she would make it worse. Your policy of a full US embargo would
0:15:28 > 0:15:32make it worse.That is what people are saying. The situation today, it
0:15:32 > 0:15:37is the one you are describing. Without even having an embargo. We
0:15:37 > 0:15:41have to look at the economic situation.When the embargo make it
0:15:41 > 0:15:47worse?We will discuss that when it comes.President Macri has we want a
0:15:47 > 0:15:52full embargo.We are discussing with the countries in the area what to do
0:15:52 > 0:15:59with Venezuela, hell -- how to help them come back to democracy.Cynthia
0:15:59 > 0:16:04Anson, an expert on the area says there is a deep concern on this
0:16:04 > 0:16:08issue of Venezuela and a deep dialogue about what to do, but there
0:16:08 > 0:16:13is also nobody calling for that tough a lion. Generally, Latin
0:16:13 > 0:16:20America is to any US unilateral action.Yes. We have been discussing
0:16:20 > 0:16:25with all the members of the group of Lema, what matters to have. These
0:16:25 > 0:16:29measures always refer to the possibility of doing something in
0:16:29 > 0:16:35the United Nations. Unfortunately it is paralysed.The Organisation of
0:16:35 > 0:16:42American States.I Venezuela. In the United Nations, they are deciding if
0:16:42 > 0:16:49it is a social or humanitarian problem in Venezuela. The countries
0:16:49 > 0:16:54who are members of the group of Lima would like to have measures and a
0:16:54 > 0:17:05show good wit -- of goodwill. We want to respect human rights and
0:17:05 > 0:17:09give the population the population to receive fruit and medicine, not
0:17:09 > 0:17:15related to their ideological position in me Venezuelan society.
0:17:15 > 0:17:22You want to put pressure on the government 's to bring that about.
0:17:22 > 0:17:27We find different ways to put the Venezuelans in attention about what
0:17:27 > 0:17:31we're doing. We don't put pressure actually to be governments, each
0:17:31 > 0:17:40country it is different.Do want sanctions?We did have sanctions.In
0:17:40 > 0:17:44terms of the local regional grouping.Of which Venezuela was a
0:17:44 > 0:17:48part. We set until you return to democracy you're no longer a member
0:17:48 > 0:17:52of the group. You are suspended. That is a kind of sanction. There
0:17:52 > 0:17:55are other sentence, once the European Union has taken. Taking the
0:17:55 > 0:18:02assets of the political leaders. Different kind of sanctions. That is
0:18:02 > 0:18:07what we are moving around.Here is Argentina now, you have taken over
0:18:07 > 0:18:12the chairmanship of the G20 and you want to focus on three things in
0:18:12 > 0:18:14your presidency, which is infrastructure, social inclusion,
0:18:14 > 0:18:21and food Security. Just give us a Nakia of how you are going to go
0:18:21 > 0:18:27about achieving this in setting up a dialogue amongst the G20.The G20 is
0:18:27 > 0:18:31a dialogue amongst all the country members who will decide what we can
0:18:31 > 0:18:35do to improve this, infrastructure is not only coming from the decision
0:18:35 > 0:18:39of Argentina, it is we have been discussing in G20, during the German
0:18:39 > 0:18:44presidency as well. We violate the possibilities of making a fund to
0:18:44 > 0:18:51finance the infrastructure needs -- we will discuss. And some other
0:18:51 > 0:18:56regions as well. In terms of social inclusion, we are very much worried
0:18:56 > 0:19:03about the impact of the technological revolution which is in
0:19:03 > 0:19:06impacting the Labour market which is causing some types of work to
0:19:06 > 0:19:14disappear. People need to Rhys Gill. This comes into education.-- Rika
0:19:14 > 0:19:20skill. Within your grouping of countries in Latin America, drugs is
0:19:20 > 0:19:23always a big issue, drugs trafficking, there is a growing
0:19:23 > 0:19:28regional consensus that the war on drugs has failed. It seems that the
0:19:28 > 0:19:31Macri government is adopting a hardline approach which is
0:19:31 > 0:19:35counter-productive, some people say. Why would it be counter-productive
0:19:35 > 0:19:44to fight drugs? This is affecting our youth, our society, the
0:19:44 > 0:19:51structure of any countries where it has been successful. Look at the
0:19:51 > 0:19:55presence of different countries in the area. We want to avoid that. We
0:19:55 > 0:20:00have to have a very clear stance on drugs as we have against terrorism,
0:20:00 > 0:20:04because there is a connection also, between the business of drugs with
0:20:04 > 0:20:09terrorism.The criticism is this, I give you an example of what has been
0:20:09 > 0:20:13said, my fellow burden, a security expert, says the Macri government is
0:20:13 > 0:20:21treating drugs mainly as a security issue, there is no energy devoted to
0:20:21 > 0:20:24programmes to reducing demand treating addicts. This is that is
0:20:24 > 0:20:28the part that is missing. You are taking it as a very tough police...
0:20:28 > 0:20:32We have, many years, different governments, a very clear position
0:20:32 > 0:20:38in trying to help the ones which have come to the consumption. Now we
0:20:38 > 0:20:43had to pay attention to the security issues that brings the drug
0:20:43 > 0:20:48business. The other plans are still going on. So far all have been
0:20:48 > 0:20:54developed over many years. This is a concern to which Argentina Society
0:20:54 > 0:20:58pays a lot of attention. The previous government has not paid
0:20:58 > 0:21:02attention to the control of the borders concerning the people who
0:21:02 > 0:21:09bring in drugs.So another aspect of the challenges the government is the
0:21:09 > 0:21:13fact that two years ago when its Coalition Government came to power,
0:21:13 > 0:21:19the economy was in a very bad state, heavily indebted, people were
0:21:19 > 0:21:23finding it a real struggle, the cost of living was very high.Inflation
0:21:23 > 0:21:29was...Absolutely. The centrist pro- market government comes in, but
0:21:29 > 0:21:36expectations are high and you have to deliver. President Macri's party
0:21:36 > 0:21:41does not have a majority in Parliament, Salah how easy, how
0:21:41 > 0:21:46difficult is going to be volume try to get his pro- market reforms
0:21:46 > 0:21:52through?-- so how easy? That makes it much more worth while that the
0:21:52 > 0:21:55reforms that President Macri and his government are doing just to improve
0:21:55 > 0:21:59our economical situation. The first thing we had to improve was now
0:21:59 > 0:22:04macroeconomics. Inflation was rampant. Deficit was absolutely
0:22:04 > 0:22:09high.Wasteful subsidies. Cut international credit.Slowly, during
0:22:09 > 0:22:17the first year, we paid our investors on time, we tried to put
0:22:17 > 0:22:23in order the deficit, we are curtailing our deficit. We are now
0:22:23 > 0:22:31trying to achieve 3.2% of our deficit in the budget. These are
0:22:31 > 0:22:36important measures taken. And the people are also going along with
0:22:36 > 0:22:44him. The elections that took place last October were a reformation of
0:22:44 > 0:22:47the actions taken by the government of President Macri.Some local
0:22:47 > 0:22:53elections. Mid-term elections.He mid-term elections in Argentina
0:22:53 > 0:22:57marks where the people want the government to go.-- the mid-term. I
0:22:57 > 0:23:01must ask you this, an interesting fact about Argentina and President
0:23:01 > 0:23:05Macri himself as talked about, he says he wants Argentina on the couch
0:23:05 > 0:23:10to deal with its hangups, to make it normal, he says. And he admits he
0:23:10 > 0:23:15has been to a psychoanalyst himself. And your country is famous for
0:23:15 > 0:23:20having more psychologists per capita than any other country in the world.
0:23:20 > 0:23:25We share this condition with New York...New York as a city. You have
0:23:25 > 0:23:30the accolade as a country. What is it about the Argentine psyche?We
0:23:30 > 0:23:35discuss everything about psychology. We discuss anything of our own lives
0:23:35 > 0:23:38we can immediately to psychology. But we have to be normal in the
0:23:38 > 0:23:42sense of do whatever the other countries are doing. That is the
0:23:42 > 0:23:46reason we apply to become members of the OECD, because there are certain
0:23:46 > 0:23:53solutions, certain proposals on how to move capital that are already
0:23:53 > 0:23:59proved by the world. It is going and trying to invent something, if we
0:23:59 > 0:24:06can go where the normal people go. As we say, we are not going to
0:24:06 > 0:24:11invent, we use the bicycle as everybody does. That is a normal
0:24:11 > 0:24:14country. It is a psychological approach to life. You have to be
0:24:14 > 0:24:20more common sense.Jorge Faurie, thank you very much.Thank you for
0:24:20 > 0:24:23having me here. Thank you.