0:00:01 > 0:00:12Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.
0:00:12 > 0:00:20Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. They say you can judge a man
0:00:20 > 0:00:24by the company he keeps. If that is true, my guest today should provide
0:00:24 > 0:00:31telling insight into the character of President Donald Trump. Roger
0:00:31 > 0:00:33Stone is a hugely controversial and divisive figure in American
0:00:33 > 0:00:40conservatism. He is a long-time friend and sometime adviser to Mr
0:00:40 > 0:00:48Trump. Is he also a symbol of all that is currently wrong in American
0:00:48 > 0:00:52politics?
0:01:11 > 0:01:19Roger Stone, welcome to HARDtalk.A pleasure to be here.It is just past
0:01:19 > 0:01:25the one-year anniversary of the Donald Trump administration. How
0:01:25 > 0:01:28would you describe the political atmosphere in the United States
0:01:28 > 0:01:33today?I would say improving. The president continues to be a
0:01:33 > 0:01:40polarising figure. A relatively close election with both candidates
0:01:40 > 0:01:45seen as polarising. But the rising tide of a strong economy is helping
0:01:45 > 0:01:50enormously. We have created under the watch of Donald Trump 2 million
0:01:50 > 0:01:54jobs, a record stock market, African American and Hispanic unemployment
0:01:54 > 0:02:01is at historic lows. Suddenly, you have a billion-dollar company like
0:02:01 > 0:02:14Apple coming back to the US to repatriate money. I am growing lay
0:02:14 > 0:02:23positive about it supplied all the more Marach -- remarkable, his
0:02:23 > 0:02:28approval ratings are at historic lows.A great economy, and yet, a
0:02:28 > 0:02:32president who is profoundly unpopular with the American public.
0:02:32 > 0:02:37I would argue that he is polarising rather than unpopular.You have seen
0:02:37 > 0:02:47the figures.I have. I quibble with some, there are methodology issues
0:02:47 > 0:02:55and so on. In the first year of the presidency, I do not think you can
0:02:55 > 0:02:58judge his overall success. I think as the economy grows, as he gets
0:02:58 > 0:03:06more of his programme in place, particularly after his historic tax
0:03:06 > 0:03:10cut has in effect, you will see a change.What about the intangible
0:03:10 > 0:03:18political ultrahad the extraordinary signs of a president who, according
0:03:18 > 0:03:22to independent fact checkers, has, in the course of his first year,
0:03:22 > 0:03:28delivered pretty much 2000 falls were misleading statements. --
0:03:28 > 0:03:35false.If you like your healthcare programme, you can keep it. Read my
0:03:35 > 0:03:47lips, no new taxes. No president has ever told the exact truth...But
0:03:47 > 0:03:51these are untruths on a scale never seen. Do you accept that?Not
0:03:51 > 0:04:07exactly. Every president has a potential to barricade. --
0:04:07 > 0:04:10prevaricate. He won. His opponent had not the best truthful track
0:04:10 > 0:04:13record.Is this style of politics something you imbued in the
0:04:13 > 0:04:18president? You have been a friend and political ally for a long time.
0:04:18 > 0:04:24At a time you were a senior adviser until 2015 when he decided to run.
0:04:24 > 0:04:31There are people that believe your attitude to quote unquote
0:04:31 > 0:04:36misinformation is something you passed on.First of all, no one
0:04:36 > 0:04:45imbues Donald Trump with anything. He marches to his own drummer. He is
0:04:45 > 0:04:54his own wordsmith, Tweetmaster, speechwriter, Press Secretary. He is
0:04:54 > 0:05:02the chief architect of his own success. It was an extraordinarily
0:05:02 > 0:05:06improbable election that he won. Something he may have picked up on,
0:05:06 > 0:05:10you said I believe in doing anything, anything, necessary to
0:05:10 > 0:05:16win, then you added short of breaking the law.I actually lifted
0:05:16 > 0:05:24out from Lyndon Baines Johnson in his biography. -- lifted that quote.
0:05:24 > 0:05:39I meant leave no stone unturned. The implication is you make an all-out
0:05:39 > 0:05:43effort, short of breaking the law. Lying is not illegal. It is fair
0:05:43 > 0:05:48game.You do not lie on purpose... Sometimes you say things that proved
0:05:48 > 0:05:56not to be true.Donald Trump lies on purpose, we both know that. You can
0:05:56 > 0:06:00talk about very little things, the size of crowds and things like that,
0:06:00 > 0:06:04but there is evidence to show he must know it cannot be true.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07Evidently, voters have taken that with a grain of salt because they
0:06:07 > 0:06:13elected him.Absolutely. I am saying that your politics, it is not about
0:06:13 > 0:06:18words like values, your conscience, it is about doing whatever is
0:06:18 > 0:06:21necessary to be that is a political culture you believe in which Donald
0:06:21 > 0:06:25Trump believes in as well and perhaps they are associated because
0:06:25 > 0:06:29you have known him for an awful long time.It is a political culture that
0:06:29 > 0:06:34every successful president in modern times has subscribed to. I do not
0:06:34 > 0:06:37think Donald Trump or I have done anything different than has been the
0:06:37 > 0:06:42norm.Here is a quote for you, I know you know him, you may not
0:06:42 > 0:06:46respect him very much, but a writer who has looked at your career and
0:06:46 > 0:06:53Donald Trump's, he says in many ways, Roger Stone created Donald
0:06:53 > 0:07:02Trump is a political figure, the Donald Trump candidacy was a Roger
0:07:02 > 0:07:06Stone production.I am flattered, but I cannot take credit. It is true
0:07:06 > 0:07:10that I first thought of the idea of Donald Trump as a candidate for
0:07:10 > 0:07:15presidency back in 1988. I was drawn to him as a potential candidate
0:07:15 > 0:07:20because of his independence created by his wealth, independence in the
0:07:20 > 0:07:25sense he was not deeply committed or responsible for the policies of the
0:07:25 > 0:07:31past, he had no investment in mistakes already made. And what I
0:07:31 > 0:07:36saw was a growing to duopoly in which the two parties working
0:07:36 > 0:07:41together had started an endless war without national inherent interest
0:07:41 > 0:07:47in clear, national debt, spending and borrowing with no end in sight
0:07:47 > 0:08:11cheating people going through the system and brought in people
0:08:11 > 0:08:14practical -- rorting people, trade policies which sucked jobs out of
0:08:14 > 0:08:18America. And a stagnant economy of those who did not know how to run a
0:08:18 > 0:08:21business. I thought a person with enormous courage to change things.
0:08:21 > 0:08:37How disappointed, what kind of sense of betrayal, did you have, when when
0:08:37 > 0:08:41once the bandwagon started to roll in 2015, which you set in motion,
0:08:41 > 0:08:44you were thrown overboard.I would argue with that interpretation. I
0:08:44 > 0:08:47resigned, and showed that resignation to the New York Times
0:08:47 > 0:08:50the night before.If we take the words of Donald Trump at face
0:08:50 > 0:08:54value...No one breaks up with Donald Trump, he breaks up with you.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57There is no point in disparaging or disagreeing with him. I did more
0:08:57 > 0:09:00television interviews on his behalf after I left the campaign than
0:09:00 > 0:09:06before.I recall all of that, you were a very familiar figure,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09offering your total loyalty and support to Donald Trump even though
0:09:09 > 0:09:15you left the official campaign.I am a strategist. A campaign cannot have
0:09:15 > 0:09:19two strategists. There was no sense in my staying so I could fight about
0:09:19 > 0:09:23things which he turned out to be right about and I turned out to be
0:09:23 > 0:09:26wrong about. This is the first candidate for the presidency in my
0:09:26 > 0:09:29experience of 10 national presidential campaigns who never
0:09:29 > 0:09:35took a poll, who never spent any money on, you know, he'd network
0:09:35 > 0:09:41campaign advertising, analytics, focus groups.-- paid. Are you still
0:09:41 > 0:09:47in contact?From time to time.Do you give advice?Occasionally.Does
0:09:47 > 0:09:54he take it?Sometimes.For example? I believe the president is entitled
0:09:54 > 0:09:59to discretion. If he asks you what you think would tell you what he
0:09:59 > 0:10:04thinks, you should have discretion. I do not discuss in detail what we
0:10:04 > 0:10:11talk about, which I have had as a policy since the beginning. I would
0:10:11 > 0:10:19never want to be of detriment to him.You talk about Steve Bannon, a
0:10:19 > 0:10:30person Donald Trump calls Sloppy Steve, for so long his Chief
0:10:30 > 0:10:33Strategist.A self appointed role. He was very important for the key
0:10:33 > 0:10:40months in which Donald Trump won the presidency. Steve Bannon was a key
0:10:40 > 0:10:44figure and entered the White House. General Michael Flynn, National
0:10:44 > 0:10:48Security Adviser, Anthony Scaramucci, Sean Spicer, Reince
0:10:48 > 0:10:53Priebus, Katie Walls, as well as key figures outside of the
0:10:53 > 0:10:57administration, James Comey, the FBI Director, recently Andrew McCabe,
0:10:57 > 0:11:02FBI deputy director. All of these people, they are people who have
0:11:02 > 0:11:07either been fired or quit in the first year of the Donald Trump White
0:11:07 > 0:11:18House. It looks like chaos.I do not agree with that. Some did not serve
0:11:18 > 0:11:21the president well. Steve Bannon blew up the president himself and
0:11:21 > 0:11:31has only himself to blame.A man who lied about his meetings with the
0:11:31 > 0:11:41Russians?No, his actions were legal. He lied to the FBI agent.We
0:11:41 > 0:11:46will get to something which hangs like a very dark shadow over the
0:11:46 > 0:11:50whole of the Donald Trump presidency, that is the special
0:11:50 > 0:11:52counsel investigation into allegations of collusion during the
0:11:52 > 0:11:58election campaign between the Donald Trump campaign and the Russians to
0:11:58 > 0:12:01interfere with and directly influence that election.Yes, a
0:12:01 > 0:12:11fairy tale, a falsehood, meaningful co-ordination, conspiring, collusion
0:12:11 > 0:12:18with the Russians, there has never been any evidence of it produced
0:12:18 > 0:12:22either by the House or the Senate committee.You speak with such
0:12:22 > 0:12:25confidence. You could not possibly know.We would have read about it by
0:12:25 > 0:12:31now.There is an investigation.He has nothing. I guarantee it. We will
0:12:31 > 0:12:36wait and see. What about the indictments related to Russia? He
0:12:36 > 0:12:49processed indictments. It was a process... And Manafort, on crimes
0:12:49 > 0:12:52not related to Russia, but Ukraine. Paul Manafort, a close friend of
0:12:52 > 0:12:56yours, facing serious charges.None related to Russian collusion.Look
0:12:56 > 0:13:00at the facts, at least 12 Donald Trump associates had contact during
0:13:00 > 0:13:06the campaign.Contact with the Russians are not illegal, and it is
0:13:06 > 0:13:13not evidence... What the Hillary Clinton?Summer, 2016, contacts to
0:13:13 > 0:13:23the Kremlin. Jared Kushner, one of Donald Trump's sons, a meeting which
0:13:23 > 0:13:31Trump himself oversaw.The meeting was illegal and produce nothing. Why
0:13:31 > 0:13:38was he Hillary Clinton out of the country? What about Obama? Why would
0:13:38 > 0:13:42she be in the country for such a meeting? And what about the evidence
0:13:42 > 0:13:49of our season is? The meeting is a nothing burger. -- malfeasance.I
0:13:49 > 0:13:56have heard this phrase nothing burger before.It is an American
0:13:56 > 0:14:07expression.It comes down to what we do and do not know.I am willing to
0:14:07 > 0:14:10go on record. He has nothing relating to Russian collusion. I
0:14:10 > 0:14:15agree with the president. It is a witch-hunt.It could be about
0:14:15 > 0:14:20obstruction of justice.Now we are going back to the firing of James
0:14:20 > 0:14:27Comey.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31First there was the recount that failed, the recount showed that
0:14:31 > 0:14:37Donald Trump one Wisconsin and Michigan by a larger margin than
0:14:37 > 0:14:42expected.Then they wanted to brief the Electoral College on Russian
0:14:42 > 0:14:45collusion. It would have been the shortest briefing of all time. There
0:14:45 > 0:14:49was no evidence then, there is no evidence now. Then there is this
0:14:49 > 0:14:57investigation. Roger Stone has had a lot of time and a lot -- Robert
0:14:57 > 0:15:03Mueller has had a lot of time and a lot of money. Meetings do not equal
0:15:03 > 0:15:07collusion. If so Hillary Clinton was colluding with the Ukrainians.
0:15:07 > 0:15:14People in Washington were looking very closely at your particular bit
0:15:14 > 0:15:18part.It did seem for a time as though more and more detail was
0:15:18 > 0:15:22coming out about hacked information that was garnered on the Democratic
0:15:22 > 0:15:26Party that you were getting a heads up from WikiLeaks about what was
0:15:26 > 0:15:30coming down the pipes.Entirely false. Everything I tweeted or road
0:15:30 > 0:15:35was because I was following the tweets of both WikiLeaks or Julian
0:15:35 > 0:15:38Assange and following his interviews.You are pre-empting
0:15:38 > 0:15:42them. You seem to know that John Podesta was going to come into the
0:15:42 > 0:15:47firing line before it was issued in WikiLeaks.Yes, because in January
0:15:47 > 0:15:512016I read all the Panama Papers information about business
0:15:51 > 0:15:54activities in Russia. He did not need a heads up from WikiLeaks to
0:15:54 > 0:16:01know that would become an issue in the campaign. After the focus on
0:16:01 > 0:16:06manifold, the focus on John Podesta was going to happen. I did not say
0:16:06 > 0:16:09anywhere that WikiLeaks would polish his e-mails, because they did not
0:16:09 > 0:16:13know.It is odd that the Russians were hacking The Democratic Party
0:16:13 > 0:16:23darts --.When they say with a high degree of confidence it is our
0:16:23 > 0:16:26assessment, that meant they don't know. I don't agree with that. The
0:16:26 > 0:16:30same people told you Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy and he acted
0:16:30 > 0:16:37alone, and now we know, on the basis of recently released documents, is
0:16:37 > 0:16:41unlikely true.You can take your view of what is credible and I can
0:16:41 > 0:16:45take mine. The fact is that the Russians, according to every
0:16:45 > 0:16:48credible intelligence official in the United States, were hacking the
0:16:48 > 0:16:53Democratic Party, the information was being given to WikiLeaks... As
0:16:53 > 0:16:58former counterintelligence officials. And you appear to be
0:16:58 > 0:17:04ahead of the game knowing what is coming up. You went to the
0:17:04 > 0:17:08Ecuadorian Embassy to try to see Julian Assange.What is that all
0:17:08 > 0:17:13about? We will take that one by one. As former top cut intelligence
0:17:13 > 0:17:18agents have said, there is more evidence that the DNC information
0:17:18 > 0:17:22was downloaded to a portable drive and taken out the back door. There
0:17:22 > 0:17:25really is no evidence it was hacked...You really don't trust
0:17:25 > 0:17:31your own government, do you?Because they lie to us constantly. The
0:17:31 > 0:17:34nation magazine, hardly a right-wing organ, it was the organisation
0:17:34 > 0:17:40published that study. Secondarily, Julian Assange himself has said
0:17:40 > 0:17:43Roger Stone has not tweeted anything I have the authority said in public
0:17:43 > 0:17:49either in an interview or re-tweet. I spent four hours in front of a
0:17:49 > 0:17:52House Intelligence Committee where I went voluntarily and, as I told
0:17:52 > 0:17:57them, and I see now, I know of no one who conspired with the Russians
0:17:57 > 0:18:01I have no prior knowledge of the hacking of the DNC, I am not even
0:18:01 > 0:18:06sure they were hacked. The reason I went by the Ecuadorian Embassy, I
0:18:06 > 0:18:11did not ask for a meeting, that was incorrect, I dropped off a card. It
0:18:11 > 0:18:15is because I don't believe Julian Assange is a Russian asset. I
0:18:15 > 0:18:19believe he is a journalist. I do not live WikiLeaks is a Russian front, I
0:18:19 > 0:18:24believe it is a news organisation. A news organisation with a better
0:18:24 > 0:18:28reputation for accuracy than, say, the New York Times and Washington
0:18:28 > 0:18:32Post.Even as we speak, Donald Trump's warp with the top echelons
0:18:32 > 0:18:39of the FBI and, indeed, it seems with the Justice Department is
0:18:39 > 0:18:43continuing.This is dangerous territory. It is not dangerous at
0:18:43 > 0:18:48all. The FBI and the CIA would not like to release a memo that which
0:18:48 > 0:18:52showed they used a fabricated dossier as the justification for
0:18:52 > 0:18:59surveillance by the State on the Republican candidate for president.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03I was than Watergate. I guess you are giving me a very authentic view
0:19:03 > 0:19:08into the can let that the collective mind of the so-called alt-right.Not
0:19:08 > 0:19:13at all.You don't trust, one second, those put into the positions of
0:19:13 > 0:19:18highest authority in America's leading security and intelligence
0:19:18 > 0:19:24agencies. You believe the FBI, the CIA, and they suppose the other
0:19:24 > 0:19:27intelligence agencies...They have been politicised. Those agencies
0:19:27 > 0:19:31have been entirely politicised... Because they don't do what you and
0:19:31 > 0:19:35Donald Trump wanted to do does not mean they are politicised.The FBI
0:19:35 > 0:19:39and the CIA oppose the release of a memo that will demonstrate that they
0:19:39 > 0:19:43violated the war because they say it threatens national security.
0:19:43 > 0:19:47Nonsensical. The thing is, you have a very strong set of opinions about
0:19:47 > 0:19:50what is happening. I come back to what they opened with, you win your
0:19:50 > 0:19:55political career have always prided yourself in the power of
0:19:55 > 0:19:59disinformation. To quote Ted Cruz, a right-wing Republican, you have
0:19:59 > 0:20:04spent your entire career lying. Because everything I have said today
0:20:04 > 0:20:09will be borne out to be true and you can come and re- interview me when
0:20:09 > 0:20:13that happens. That is how confident I am that I am correct.Your record
0:20:13 > 0:20:18suggests that you are, from time to time, inclined to use language which
0:20:18 > 0:20:22deepens and expands the fractures in American society.Like Hillary
0:20:22 > 0:20:27Clinton sang Bright -- black people should be brought to heel.Like
0:20:27 > 0:20:33Roger Stone Sweeting about the Negroes, using the word beginning
0:20:33 > 0:20:38with Robert Mueller for women he disagrees with.I did refer to
0:20:38 > 0:20:42someone as a Negro.I also issued an apology. But why did you do at? You
0:20:42 > 0:20:47know what it conjures up about segregation.Actually, I don't think
0:20:47 > 0:20:52it is offensive. But because some black people I know do so I did
0:20:52 > 0:20:59apologise for that. As far as calling her a bitch, I stand by
0:20:59 > 0:21:04that.A nasty, narrowminded... You started this interview by worrying
0:21:04 > 0:21:12aloud about the polarisation of things today, and then use that
0:21:12 > 0:21:22language. Your politics, your style of politics, it is corroding and
0:21:22 > 0:21:24corrupting American political culture today.I have done nothing
0:21:24 > 0:21:30in politics that is the norm. Our opponents have said things about us
0:21:30 > 0:21:36every bit as coarse as the things we may have said. I reject this idea
0:21:36 > 0:21:43that I have changed the culture.I was positing earlier that you may
0:21:43 > 0:21:46have influenced Donald Trump in some ways. When Donald Trump said what he
0:21:46 > 0:21:50set about immigrants who come from countries like Haiti and he said
0:21:50 > 0:21:56that he wished more would come from Norway rather than countries like
0:21:56 > 0:22:00Haiti, when he reacted to the Charlottesville display of power by
0:22:00 > 0:22:04neo-Nazis by Sangha will find people involved, how did you respond to
0:22:04 > 0:22:08have what he said in those situations?The President denied
0:22:08 > 0:22:12saying that. No Republican who was there recall since they met.I think
0:22:12 > 0:22:21you will find that Lindsey Graham says the interpretation was right.
0:22:21 > 0:22:25I'm not going to criticise the present for saying what people
0:22:25 > 0:22:31think.The United Nations human rights Council described it as
0:22:31 > 0:22:35racist.The United Nations, they have accomplished a great deal.I
0:22:35 > 0:22:39guess it is this commie he used it with me in United Kingdom, you know
0:22:39 > 0:22:42there people around the world who have responded to think they have
0:22:42 > 0:22:46heard from Donald Trump and wonder where the United States is led by
0:22:46 > 0:22:50racist and that doesn't seem to worry you.What matters are deeds,
0:22:50 > 0:22:53not words. African American unemployment is at the lowest point
0:22:53 > 0:22:57in our history. They called Richard Nixon a racist. He gave us
0:22:57 > 0:23:01affirmative action. He desegregated the American public schools without
0:23:01 > 0:23:06violence or bloodshed. What matters are deeds, not words.When you look
0:23:06 > 0:23:10at what is happening today in the United States and you consider
0:23:10 > 0:23:14Donald Trump as a man and as a president, how do you think this
0:23:14 > 0:23:18presidency is going to pan out?It depends on whether he make America
0:23:18 > 0:23:23great again. Our economy is booming. In the State of the Union Address he
0:23:23 > 0:23:28talked about restoring our cities, Detroit, I would like to see him do
0:23:28 > 0:23:32that. I would like to see him follow through on the place to get us out
0:23:32 > 0:23:35of Afghanistan and Syria. I am disappointed that the generals have
0:23:35 > 0:23:39talked him into continuing or increasing our presence in those
0:23:39 > 0:23:43places. He ran as an enter individualist in the campaign. But
0:23:43 > 0:23:50one year does not a presidency make. -- ran as an anti- interventionist.
0:23:50 > 0:23:55Given the intractable opposition of the 2-party elites.Roger Stone, we
0:23:55 > 0:23:58have two and there.Thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Very
0:23:58 > 0:24:03happy to be here.-- to end there.