0:00:00 > 0:00:09Now on BBC News...it's HARDtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:17Welcome to HARDtalk. I am in Nairobi. When it comes to politics,
0:00:17 > 0:00:24Kenya has a history of violent and disputed elections. I am at the home
0:00:24 > 0:00:27of the veteran opposition leader Raila Odinga for this exclusive
0:00:27 > 0:00:32interview. He has gone and had himself sworn in as the people's
0:00:32 > 0:00:35president in an act which the government says amounts to high
0:00:35 > 0:00:49treason. Is he acting irresponsibly, is legally and stoking tensions? --
0:00:49 > 0:00:53illegally.
0:01:00 > 0:01:06Raila Odinga, welcome to HARDtalk. Honestly, do you really believe you
0:01:06 > 0:01:15are president of Kenya?Do I look presidential? You are wearing a
0:01:15 > 0:01:23sharp suit. I really do believe I am the President.If you listen to what
0:01:23 > 0:01:29people are saying, for example, alien FM radio station that supports
0:01:29 > 0:01:32the government, they say things like your so-called swearing-in ceremony
0:01:32 > 0:01:40is meaningless. Whereas Raila Odinga's state house, a farewell
0:01:40 > 0:01:46party for you. That is what Kenyans are saying.There are a few Kenyans
0:01:46 > 0:01:55to say that. Of course it is just a joke they are making. They know that
0:01:55 > 0:02:01the occasion was a serious occasion. It was aimed at ending the circus of
0:02:01 > 0:02:15the elections last year so that we can move forward. You do not... As
0:02:15 > 0:02:18the People's President we have an important agenda that we want to put
0:02:18 > 0:02:23forward in order to bring this country back on track. There is no
0:02:23 > 0:02:29constitutional basis for what you have done, declaring yourself
0:02:29 > 0:02:31people's president and saying you want to set up a parallel
0:02:31 > 0:02:37government.President Uhuru Kenyatta is very angry with you and your
0:02:37 > 0:02:40swearing-in has been described as a comedy and a drama. Those who
0:02:40 > 0:02:47continue to create drama should be -- now that they are on their own.
0:02:47 > 0:02:58You are an your own.They are a comedy. It is based on the
0:02:58 > 0:03:11Constitution. We made the Constitution and ensure that Kenyans
0:03:11 > 0:03:15have power with an institution like this. That is in our Constitution.
0:03:15 > 0:03:26The people of Kenya can exercise their power directly or donated to
0:03:26 > 0:03:30their elected representatives.If that were the case then you had the
0:03:30 > 0:03:38support you claim you have, why do three of your four coalition
0:03:38 > 0:03:42partners in Nassar, the national super alliance, he opposition
0:03:42 > 0:03:46grouping that you head, three of the four stayed away including you're
0:03:46 > 0:03:59running mate. You are on your own. They do not approve.Some will say
0:03:59 > 0:04:04was taken out at a later date.But he did not turn up.He did not turn
0:04:04 > 0:04:09up and he explained why he did not turn up. I do not want to speak for
0:04:09 > 0:04:15him. What saying is that they are not being there did not reduce the
0:04:15 > 0:04:21significance or the importance of the occasion. They stand behind and
0:04:21 > 0:04:26they supported.When you talk to people in Kenya, informed opinion
0:04:26 > 0:04:31suggest that they did not support you because they are relatively
0:04:31 > 0:04:36young and you are in your early 70s, they think they have a political
0:04:36 > 0:04:40future and they do not want to be involved in this act that the
0:04:40 > 0:04:46government has described as an act of high treason.They know very
0:04:46 > 0:04:53clearly that if we do not solve the dispute over the 2017 elections,
0:04:53 > 0:05:00there will be no 2022 elections because if you get away with
0:05:00 > 0:05:05stealing and rigging the way they did the last time, there is no
0:05:05 > 0:05:09guarantee that 2022 will be different. What we're to do is bring
0:05:09 > 0:05:20an end to electoral fraud, and electoral -- forcing and electoral
0:05:20 > 0:05:23coup, a coup d'etat on the people. People voted one way and the
0:05:23 > 0:05:30government, because they have taken the electoral body positive, a
0:05:30 > 0:05:35hostage, they impose themselves on the people. -- taken the electoral
0:05:35 > 0:05:39body hostage.There were two elections last year. One on August
0:05:39 > 0:05:42eight that was declared null and void because you challenged it and
0:05:42 > 0:05:47said there was fraud and the government, President Uhuru Kenyatta
0:05:47 > 0:05:53accepted that reluctantly. October 26 there was a second election which
0:05:53 > 0:05:59you decided not to run in. And then that went ahead and President Uhuru
0:05:59 > 0:06:03Kenyatta won that election. The result was upheld by the
0:06:03 > 0:06:09international community, the African Union said that the result was good.
0:06:09 > 0:06:15The European Union, the United States, the entire world accepted
0:06:15 > 0:06:22the validity of that election result in October.The Supreme Court, in
0:06:22 > 0:06:29making a ruling, said there were illegalities and irregularities that
0:06:29 > 0:06:40influenced the election in August. They ordered the commission to
0:06:40 > 0:06:47conduct an election in accordance with the law and constitution. So we
0:06:47 > 0:06:51asked the commission to sit down and address the illegalities and
0:06:51 > 0:06:56irregularities before the election went ahead so that we do not repeat
0:06:56 > 0:07:03what happened in August.But, really, if you had challenged the
0:07:03 > 0:07:06validity of that election in August and the Supreme Court agreed to
0:07:06 > 0:07:12rerun it, surely you should have run in October and if you were unhappy
0:07:12 > 0:07:16with the result, challenge it again in the court.What would you do in
0:07:16 > 0:07:22my situation? When the chairman of the Electoral Commission himself, a
0:07:22 > 0:07:26days before the October elections, on live television says that he is
0:07:26 > 0:07:31unprepared, he is not ready. The commission in court that a free and
0:07:31 > 0:07:42fair election. One commissioner resigned citing illegalities, and
0:07:42 > 0:07:45pressure, saying that four of the seven commissioners took their
0:07:45 > 0:07:50instructions from the state.So you do not believe the reforms were not
0:07:50 > 0:07:56undertaken and that is why you did not stand. So now, based on the
0:07:56 > 0:07:59result of the August election you say you are the People's President.
0:07:59 > 0:08:03You went to the Supreme Court and said you do not agree with that
0:08:03 > 0:08:07election at all and now you are saying to us actually, I won that
0:08:07 > 0:08:12election. It sounds quite contradictory, that you are
0:08:12 > 0:08:19flip-flopping.No, no. When the Supreme Court nullified the
0:08:19 > 0:08:26declaration by the commission that Uhuru Kenyatta had won the election,
0:08:26 > 0:08:37they did not nullify. Remember in the hearing I petitioned the court
0:08:37 > 0:08:46to command the commission to open a server for verification. The
0:08:46 > 0:08:56commission refused to comply with the order. What you have done is you
0:08:56 > 0:09:02have seized an opportunity to seize the server and produce the authentic
0:09:02 > 0:09:10results in August eight.And you say that gave you half a million -- more
0:09:10 > 0:09:17votes than Uhuru Kenyatta. Now, let's look at your people's
0:09:17 > 0:09:20president claimed. The international community has said that this has no
0:09:20 > 0:09:26validity. The chair of the African Union commission has criticised your
0:09:26 > 0:09:29so-called swearing-in and says he rejects all action that undermines
0:09:29 > 0:09:33the constitutional and rule of law. The US State Department has said
0:09:33 > 0:09:38that what it was not correct. The American ambassador here in Nairobi
0:09:38 > 0:09:43has also criticised your actions. Nobody approves of what you are
0:09:43 > 0:09:51doing.Only you see this in a very bad light. The African Union. The
0:09:51 > 0:10:01African Union have been defending dictators. In the past they needed
0:10:01 > 0:10:04to come in military uniform and military coup. This year they hold
0:10:04 > 0:10:12-- nowadays they hold electoral coup d'etat.So the African Union refute
0:10:12 > 0:10:18that. How about the American ambassador. You say you want him
0:10:18 > 0:10:22recalled because you aren't happy with the statement.Remember, I told
0:10:22 > 0:10:28you that a days before the October election, the commission chairman
0:10:28 > 0:10:38said he was not ready. One day before the repeat election the
0:10:38 > 0:10:45Supreme Court was unable to hear a petition requesting a postponement
0:10:45 > 0:10:56because of a lack of proper preparation. Two days before means
0:10:56 > 0:11:04the western departments -- diplomats...When you go from here?
0:11:04 > 0:11:11You you are the People's President. Use a that we will work like a
0:11:11 > 0:11:14government and appoint ministers, even if we have to run a government
0:11:14 > 0:11:20in exile. That is what you said on January 18 on voice of America.
0:11:20 > 0:11:33Those were your words.What we mean to say, we have said it clearly.
0:11:33 > 0:11:50They refuse us assemblies and we have had, basically, with various
0:11:50 > 0:11:55assemblies, and pass through blood -- resolutions. Those resolutions
0:11:55 > 0:11:59will be taken to the people's convention that will be held when?
0:11:59 > 0:12:09Shortly.And who is in these assemblies? The elections in October
0:12:09 > 0:12:12were for the National Assembly, for governorships and so on. Many
0:12:12 > 0:12:18members of your coalition, and NASA, are serving as MPs and are serving
0:12:18 > 0:12:21as governors. They are not part of this parallel assembly and
0:12:21 > 0:12:25government that you say you want to set up.There. What you are doing --
0:12:25 > 0:12:39what we are doing here is setting up a People's Convention. Having then
0:12:39 > 0:12:44taken oath as the People's President then the People's Convention will
0:12:44 > 0:12:51deliberate on the resolutions that are coming from the assemblies on
0:12:51 > 0:12:54how we want matters to be handled. There are six critical issues coming
0:12:54 > 0:13:09up. Electoral justice. Independent judiciary is. Police reform. The
0:13:09 > 0:13:18restructuring and strengthening of the revolution. The restructuring of
0:13:18 > 0:13:22power and, finally, inclusion, ethnic inclusion in government in
0:13:22 > 0:13:27this country.What will you do? You set up this convention. What will
0:13:27 > 0:13:32you do? March on the National Assembly and say we demand these
0:13:32 > 0:13:39changes? What is your plan? You don't want to remove Uhuru Kenyatta
0:13:39 > 0:13:46from the state house? So you accept him as president?Do you accept his
0:13:46 > 0:13:53presidency? No, we do not accept his presidency. Because we say it lacks
0:13:53 > 0:13:59legitimacy.And he says that you have committed high treason.Have
0:13:59 > 0:14:03you committed a treasonous attack? No. We have not committed treason.
0:14:03 > 0:14:11Were saying that Uhuru Kenyatta is not legitimate because October 26
0:14:11 > 0:14:17less than 20% of the voters...You have explained that. Do you want a
0:14:17 > 0:14:20third election?We want another election.When do you want that
0:14:20 > 0:14:28election?In August this year.Why did your colleague say that the
0:14:28 > 0:14:31state has declared war and we will not relent until justice is
0:14:31 > 0:14:35achieved? The state has declared war on you?
0:14:38 > 0:14:48You can see the way the state is acting, completely against the
0:14:48 > 0:14:57Constitution. It set it aside. They are not being court orders, holding
0:14:57 > 0:15:03people hostage despite court orders. -- are being supplied this includes
0:15:03 > 0:15:07your lawyer. These are people who the government is questioning
0:15:07 > 0:15:10because they believed they were complicit in a treasonous act. No
0:15:10 > 0:15:16government would accept a parallel government.They must act within the
0:15:16 > 0:15:28law. They have to be free until proven guilty through due process.
0:15:28 > 0:15:34The government has to follow the Constitution. It has no authority to
0:15:34 > 0:15:41close all media houses.They have reopened two of the three, mostly.
0:15:41 > 0:15:50Not all of them.Yeah, well CitizenTV is pending.That was
0:15:50 > 0:15:55illegal.What happens now, that is my point. You say the state has
0:15:55 > 0:15:59declared war. What if your supporters do not get what they
0:15:59 > 0:16:13want?We have enacted Article One. Our people will not relent until
0:16:13 > 0:16:15justice is served.Civil disobedience?We will, but
0:16:15 > 0:16:20everything will be peaceful. It will be a peaceful protest until justice
0:16:20 > 0:16:26is served.A breakaway republic. You told the Financial Times in western
0:16:26 > 0:16:41Kenya, your hometown, where your tribe are based, you said the debate
0:16:41 > 0:16:43about self determination is gaining currency.That is true, Zeinab
0:16:43 > 0:16:50Badawi. If you go to most parts of the country, they will say they will
0:16:50 > 0:17:08not accept donation. People will tell you we do not want to be killed
0:17:08 > 0:17:12like rats by the police. That's if you talk ill of the President. That
0:17:12 > 0:17:16is not a good sign of a country. It is a country in complex.Precisely.
0:17:16 > 0:17:21Precisely.It needs to be resolved. 1300 people were killed, 600,000
0:17:21 > 0:17:37displaced. There is an accusation against you, I tell you what the MP,
0:17:37 > 0:17:41Moses, said, he said in June that you want to set this country on a
0:17:41 > 0:17:56final inferno. Are you instigating violence?I have at all times
0:17:56 > 0:18:00resisted in attempts to use violent means to bring about change. In
0:18:00 > 0:18:032007, you saw the country aflame. One of the people came forward and
0:18:03 > 0:18:07said, "No, let's negotiate." I have offered and agreed to take the
0:18:07 > 0:18:18position of a Prime Minister with the backing of those defeated in
0:18:18 > 0:18:21elections.Are you not acting irresponsibly? You have a background
0:18:21 > 0:18:24of tensions. You have a former chief justice seen on the fourth of
0:18:24 > 0:18:29February I keep on having nightmares about the possibility of civil war.
0:18:29 > 0:18:38-- saying. When you throw your People's President and parallel
0:18:38 > 0:18:47assemblies, are you not fanning the flames of tensions?We will use
0:18:47 > 0:18:53peaceful protest.Many people are trying to take ethnicity and
0:18:53 > 0:19:00tribalism out of Kenyon politics, but he says you behave like a tribal
0:19:00 > 0:19:05king and you do play the tribal card. -- Kenyan. Is that a valued
0:19:05 > 0:19:15criticism?That is preposterous. Kenyatta knows my political base is
0:19:15 > 0:19:20Nairobi, fairly cosmopolitan. This is my constituency.Your stronghold,
0:19:20 > 0:19:28with the people you have a visceral attachment to, and they queue, as a
0:19:28 > 0:19:34former vice president said of you, you are a fairly divisive figure
0:19:34 > 0:19:40because people who love you, he says, are indulging in. -- to youph.
0:19:40 > 0:19:53And then there is the phobia of you, your critics.I beat Kenyatta on the
0:19:53 > 0:20:10coast by far. I beat him in the eastern region. I beat him in the
0:20:10 > 0:20:14north-eastern region. I beat him in the west. And also in Nairobi. He
0:20:14 > 0:20:17only beat me in the river valley and his hometown. Who is more
0:20:17 > 0:20:24cosmopolitan? Who is more accepted by the people? It is me, not
0:20:24 > 0:20:32Kenyatta.People who care about this issue, like Nikki Haley, they are
0:20:32 > 0:20:35calling for a full dialogue between religious and business leaders and
0:20:35 > 0:20:42so on to help create unity. They add political conflicts and differences
0:20:42 > 0:20:47have destabilised the country. Why do you not pursue that kind of
0:20:47 > 0:20:54strategy, say let's come together, as Kenyatta said in his inauguration
0:20:54 > 0:20:58in November, we have to have the courage to embrace the future and
0:20:58 > 0:21:02free ourselves from the baggage of past grievances. Go down that path.
0:21:02 > 0:21:09That is the part I suggested. We have been talking about dialogue. Do
0:21:09 > 0:21:12you know how to resolve this impasse, to resolve these
0:21:12 > 0:21:23contentious issues? Kenyatta is pretending there is no contention,
0:21:23 > 0:21:27that there is no crisis. He wants to talk about his development agenda,
0:21:27 > 0:21:33what they call the Four Point Agenda. We have issues to talk about
0:21:33 > 0:21:42before development. We have issues of electoral justice. They will not
0:21:42 > 0:21:48die away.The point is the people in Kenya, one businessman says we are
0:21:48 > 0:21:52more concerned about the country not stagnating. We want the country to
0:21:52 > 0:21:56stabilise the. The World Bank said the legal and political uncertainty
0:21:56 > 0:22:05could undermine its recovery. You are relatively well off by Kenyan
0:22:05 > 0:22:08standards, but many people want to see growth in this country. They do
0:22:08 > 0:22:13not want to see it held up by political uncertainty. That is what
0:22:13 > 0:22:16you are doing, prolonging the uncertainty.We are not prolonging
0:22:16 > 0:22:29it. Jenny will move forward. -- Kenya. The years under Kenyatta were
0:22:29 > 0:22:33wasted years. We gave him the opportunity. But it was all wasted.
0:22:33 > 0:22:39Look at the kind of corruption in the country, the wastage in the
0:22:39 > 0:22:46country, the kind of debt burden he imposed on the people, the cost of
0:22:46 > 0:22:50living here has soared so much most people cannot afford the basics that
0:22:50 > 0:23:00they require like the stable food of the country. Prices are so high.
0:23:00 > 0:23:04Unemployment, 40% of the youth are unemployed in the country.And
0:23:04 > 0:23:11surely all of that needs to be addressed and not have this comedy
0:23:11 > 0:23:20of drama as the Vice President said of your parallel presidency, the so
0:23:20 > 0:23:24called People's Presidency. There has to be a winner in an election,
0:23:24 > 0:23:36and he says you are a sore loser. That is really hogwash. How can I be
0:23:36 > 0:23:53a sore loser when I won in 2007? I left the loser to proceed as
0:23:53 > 0:24:00President. I lost in 1997 and accepted. In 2013, I accepted the
0:24:00 > 0:24:05ruling of The Supreme Court.So you are not a sore loser?I am not a
0:24:05 > 0:24:18sore loser. I am a gentleman. Most people understand that to be
0:24:18 > 0:24:21Kenyatta is a bitter person, filled with emotions, that is why he does
0:24:21 > 0:24:25not want any serious dialogue. This is a serious conflict in this
0:24:25 > 0:24:32country.Mr Odinga, thank you so much for coming on HARDtalk thank
0:24:32 > 0:24:34you so much, Zeinab
0:24:34 > 0:24:37much for coming on HARDtalk thank you so much, Zeinab.