0:00:00 > 0:00:08Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:12 > 0:00:14Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi, in Nairobi.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Has the Kenyan government overreacted to the self-inauguration
0:00:17 > 0:00:20of the opposition leader, Raila Odinga, as the
0:00:20 > 0:00:20People's President?
0:00:21 > 0:00:30Critics argue that its true authoritarian colours have been
0:00:30 > 0:00:32exposed by its response to the move.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35It's also put a deep spotlight on the effectiveness of President
0:00:35 > 0:00:36Uhuru Kenyatta's government.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38My guest is Raphael Tuju, the Secretary-General
0:00:38 > 0:00:41of the ruling Jubilee Party.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43Raphael Tuju, General Secretary of Kenya's ruling Jubilee Party here
0:00:43 > 0:00:53in Nairobi, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:54 > 0:01:02Thank you.
0:01:02 > 0:01:09Your government's authority and legitimacy has been
0:01:09 > 0:01:11severely challenged, hasn't it, by the self-inauguration
0:01:11 > 0:01:17as the People's President by Raila Odinga, the opposition leader?
0:01:17 > 0:01:19That's rabble-rousing from Raila Odinga.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23We've seen that before, and it's nothing to write home about.
0:01:23 > 0:01:24You've not seen this before, though.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27He's never declared himself People's President.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31Well, sometimes you don't argue with people like those.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33I mean, what does it mean to be People's President?
0:01:33 > 0:01:34It's child's play.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37And you don't see it as a challenge to your authority
0:01:37 > 0:01:38or your legitimacy?
0:01:38 > 0:01:39It doesn't.
0:01:39 > 0:01:45It doesn't challenge us in any way.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48It's a nuisance, because if there's a little bit of this rabble-rousing,
0:01:48 > 0:01:51he's always tried to have some rallies in the city centre,
0:01:51 > 0:01:54where he can cause the most amount of damage.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57Most of the people who go to those rallies are essentially
0:01:57 > 0:01:59from his ethnic community, and fortunately, in this country...
0:01:59 > 0:02:03You're member of that same ethnic community,
0:02:03 > 0:02:04incidentally, the Luo people.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07Yes, but unfortunately that's how most of our politicians
0:02:07 > 0:02:10play their politics.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13They gather their ethnic community, become some kind of warlord for that
0:02:13 > 0:02:16community, and they can harass everybody left, right and centre
0:02:16 > 0:02:17using that community.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20I think he would object to being called a warlord,
0:02:20 > 0:02:23because he has said that, in his protests against
0:02:23 > 0:02:25the government, he's going to engage in only peaceful protests
0:02:25 > 0:02:28and civil disobedience.
0:02:28 > 0:02:30How is the government responding?
0:02:30 > 0:02:32You just mentioned that I come from that community.
0:02:32 > 0:02:37I've never known somebody more violent than he is.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40In his own area, the Nyanza, where he comes from,
0:02:40 > 0:02:42there's a lot of violence in the political process.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45There's a lot of rigging in the political process.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48Go to Kisumu and ask people there if they ever
0:02:48 > 0:02:50have a chance to vote freely.
0:02:50 > 0:02:50It doesn't happen.
0:02:50 > 0:02:53Well, we'll come to that in a moment, because of course
0:02:53 > 0:02:55he says the complete opposite about you.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58But let's look at the kind of response that your government has
0:02:59 > 0:03:01made to his self-inauguration.
0:03:01 > 0:03:03The ceremony, the swearing-in ceremony, so-called,
0:03:03 > 0:03:04at Uhuru Park in Nairobi.
0:03:04 > 0:03:06What do you go and do?
0:03:06 > 0:03:09You close down the three media TV stations that wanted
0:03:09 > 0:03:14to cover the inauguration.
0:03:14 > 0:03:18You resist a court order to lift the ban on those TV stations.
0:03:18 > 0:03:19You've only just partially lifted it now.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23That's a little ham-fisted, isn't it?
0:03:23 > 0:03:35Well, let's start with the TV stations, for a start.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38First of all, they are enjoying a certain monopoly that I think
0:03:38 > 0:03:40the office of communication in the UK
0:03:40 > 0:03:41would not even allow.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44They control 70% of the viewership, and 80% of the advertising revenue.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47For that reason, they've become a little bit big headed,
0:03:47 > 0:03:49so that they can always blackmail the government.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51When there was an attempt to bring about digital
0:03:51 > 0:03:54migration about a year ago, they closed themselves for one
0:03:54 > 0:03:57month, acting as spoilt children, throwing tantrums, and this they do
0:03:57 > 0:03:58all the time.
0:03:58 > 0:04:01So this, it you're saying, is about their monopolistic
0:04:01 > 0:04:03power, as you put it, or oligopolistic power.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06Nothing to do with the fact they wanted to cover
0:04:06 > 0:04:07this self swearing-in?
0:04:07 > 0:04:11Because it happened at that time.
0:04:11 > 0:04:15Yes, it happened at that time, and we tried to be
0:04:15 > 0:04:17as accommodating as possible from the government's standpoint.
0:04:17 > 0:04:19Unfortunately, they're such oligarchs who are
0:04:19 > 0:04:21used to blackmailing.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25Besides, in many ways, the media, if we do the quantitative analysis
0:04:26 > 0:04:31that we have confronted them with in the recent past,
0:04:31 > 0:04:33they all admit that the quantitative analysis shows they are
0:04:33 > 0:04:35biased towards Nasa.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37NASA, of course, is the opposition alliance,
0:04:37 > 0:04:39the National Super Alliance...
0:04:39 > 0:04:42Not only that...
0:04:43 > 0:04:44But it's a free country.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46They can support the opposition if they want.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49Which is OK, but I think it is important that we should
0:04:49 > 0:04:51call it what it is.
0:04:51 > 0:04:54They are an extension of the opposition party.
0:04:54 > 0:05:00The many journalists who are working in those stations who are contested
0:05:00 > 0:05:05as opposition candidates, then when they lose in those
0:05:05 > 0:05:08primaries, they come back and continue as journalists.
0:05:08 > 0:05:12It is inappropriate for people who claim to be professional
0:05:12 > 0:05:17journalists to take such a partisan approach, especially
0:05:17 > 0:05:19after they have contested seats as members of those parties.
0:05:19 > 0:05:20All right.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23So, Fred Matiangi, the Internal Security Minister,
0:05:23 > 0:05:30says that the TV stations have switched off because there
0:05:30 > 0:05:34was collusion between them and some NASA opposition members to incite
0:05:34 > 0:05:37violence, but they are saying, where is the evidence for that?
0:05:37 > 0:05:39Where is the evidence for that?
0:05:39 > 0:05:42Has anybody been brought to court for trying to incite violence
0:05:42 > 0:05:43from the TV stations?
0:05:43 > 0:05:46You know, you have to understand this country a little.
0:05:46 > 0:05:47We are not a nation state.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50We are 42 different nationalities.
0:05:50 > 0:05:55It's not like a lot of countries in the West.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58We are trying to forge a country out of a geographical phenomenon.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01This is a country with a lot of potential to break into civil
0:06:02 > 0:06:05strife and civil war.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09In fact, it is a miracle that we've survived for over 50 years
0:06:09 > 0:06:14without having a major breakdown of law and order.
0:06:14 > 0:06:18We have four different races from Africa converging in this country.
0:06:18 > 0:06:21It is a very big country.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25So you've got the evidence against these members of the media,
0:06:25 > 0:06:29but you're not going to bring any case against them?
0:06:30 > 0:06:33You know, it's much, much deeper than that.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35I've just talked to you about the media being an extension
0:06:36 > 0:06:39of the opposition party.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41I can even go further.
0:06:41 > 0:06:43That's all right.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46There are many countries in the world, though, Raphael Tuju,
0:06:46 > 0:06:48where you have newspapers that are affiliated to a particular
0:06:48 > 0:06:49political party.
0:06:49 > 0:06:50Let me finish.
0:06:50 > 0:06:51Let me finish.
0:06:51 > 0:06:53I'm giving you the complexity of this country.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56You have a judiciary also which is a reflection
0:06:56 > 0:07:03of the society, and members of the judicial system,
0:07:03 > 0:07:06including judges, have been known - not have been known,
0:07:06 > 0:07:09but we see them making decisions also which are based more
0:07:09 > 0:07:16on their ethnic loyalties as opposed to fidelity to the law.
0:07:16 > 0:07:18When you have media which is an extension
0:07:18 > 0:07:21of the opposition and then you have judges, many of them
0:07:21 > 0:07:25who are having more than loyalties to their tribe than to law,
0:07:25 > 0:07:28it's a much more complex thing to deal with than what you are
0:07:28 > 0:07:33dealing with in London.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36But the point I am making to you, though, is your reaction
0:07:37 > 0:07:39to this self-inauguration, by shutting off these TV stations,
0:07:39 > 0:07:41has attracted widespread condemnation, internationally
0:07:41 > 0:07:43as well as within Kenya.
0:07:44 > 0:07:46Ahmednasir Abdullahi, who actually represented
0:07:46 > 0:07:54President Uhuru Kenyatta at the Supreme Court last year,
0:07:54 > 0:07:59said of your aggressive stance on the media,
0:07:59 > 0:08:03"The whole world condemned Raila Odinga for what he had done.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06"The government had the high moral ground.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09"For me, this is the government shooting itself in the foot."
0:08:09 > 0:08:10He's right, isn't he?
0:08:10 > 0:08:13You've shot yourselves in the foot, the way you've overreacted.
0:08:13 > 0:08:14It is an opinion.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18The world will be the first one to condemn and to laugh at this
0:08:18 > 0:08:20country if we degenerate into violence, and even the BBC
0:08:20 > 0:08:23would find it very difficult to fly into this country,
0:08:23 > 0:08:25even get a hotel in which to stay.
0:08:25 > 0:08:27So, which is the lesser of the evils?
0:08:27 > 0:08:29All right.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31I just want to continue with the conversation on the media,
0:08:31 > 0:08:33because, this self-inauguration aside, there have been a lot
0:08:33 > 0:08:37of accusations and reports from human rights organisations
0:08:37 > 0:08:40accusing the Kenyan government of becoming more authoritarian.
0:08:40 > 0:08:45Looking at press freedoms, Kenya...
0:08:45 > 0:08:47Now, a Human Rights Watch report looking at Kenya,
0:08:47 > 0:08:50on the targeting of journalists, logged 17 separate incidents
0:08:51 > 0:08:54in which 23 journalists and bloggers were physically assaulted
0:08:55 > 0:08:58between 2013, when Uhuru won his first term, and 2017,
0:08:58 > 0:09:02by government officials or individuals believed to be allied
0:09:02 > 0:09:05to government officials.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07It doesn't look good, does it?
0:09:07 > 0:09:08Well, I'm not familiar with...
0:09:08 > 0:09:10You know the Human Rights Watch report?
0:09:10 > 0:09:11Yes, I'm not...
0:09:11 > 0:09:13You should be familiar with it, because it's critical.
0:09:13 > 0:09:14Absolutely.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16I'm familiar with Human Rights Watch, but I'm not familiar
0:09:16 > 0:09:18with those specific incidents.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22But once again I ought to tell you that this country is much more
0:09:22 > 0:09:25complex than the reports that you receive.
0:09:25 > 0:09:29We have all kinds of NGOs, and some of these NGOs are family NGOs,
0:09:30 > 0:09:32or even ethnic and tribal NGOs, so the information that they
0:09:33 > 0:09:34spew out there is not necessarily objective.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37Human Rights Watch, though, when it gives numerous reports
0:09:37 > 0:09:39of journalists being attacked, for instance while covering
0:09:39 > 0:09:47opposition protests, it's not an ethnic-based organisation.
0:09:47 > 0:09:50But the reporters who give them the information tend to have
0:09:50 > 0:09:51these ethnic biases.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55But the worry is, Raphael Tuju, that if a journalist writes
0:09:55 > 0:09:56something that's not to the government's liking,
0:09:56 > 0:09:57they will be harassed.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00For instance, Walter Menya, a reporter for the Nation Media
0:10:00 > 0:10:03Group, was arrested in June last year after he wrote stories
0:10:03 > 0:10:06allegedly implicating senior officials in the use of a foundation
0:10:06 > 0:10:07to provide Uhuru Kenyatta's re-election campaign
0:10:08 > 0:10:12with illegal funding.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16So that kind of person suddenly finds they are harassed, arrested?
0:10:16 > 0:10:19First of all, what is illegal funding?
0:10:19 > 0:10:22You have to define that, because we have very little laws
0:10:22 > 0:10:23in terms of illegal funding.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26But when you have people relying on rumours, and ruining
0:10:26 > 0:10:29people's reputations, I can even tell you that...
0:10:29 > 0:10:32I can tell you that a lot of this kind of report is usually
0:10:33 > 0:10:35because they are an extension of the opposition, and, for you,
0:10:36 > 0:10:41you read a name like that, and it means nothing to you.
0:10:41 > 0:10:43It's just a journalist.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46For me, you read that name, and I can tell
0:10:46 > 0:10:47you exactly which part...
0:10:47 > 0:10:50The Nation Media Group is one of the biggest media
0:10:50 > 0:10:51groups in the country.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54But by you just reading the name, I can almost really
0:10:54 > 0:10:55tell you which is...
0:10:55 > 0:10:58But there are so many reports from human rights organisations.
0:10:58 > 0:11:00So you categorically say that the government is not
0:11:00 > 0:11:02harassing journalists?
0:11:02 > 0:11:05That they can cover opposition protests and opposition gatherings,
0:11:05 > 0:11:07and so on and so forth?
0:11:07 > 0:11:10I can tell you that the institution which is harassing us
0:11:10 > 0:11:13the most is the opposition.
0:11:13 > 0:11:14They lie through their teeth.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18I was just in a function over the weekend, and if you look
0:11:18 > 0:11:22at the reports that they made about me, you know, a few days back,
0:11:22 > 0:11:25if you look at those reports, all the papers reported it
0:11:25 > 0:11:29differently, because they were all lying of what exactly took
0:11:29 > 0:11:31place, and unfortunately, that is the situation
0:11:31 > 0:11:33in which we find ourselves.
0:11:33 > 0:11:37Very many of our journalists are not properly trained.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40A lot of the journalists and editors are in the pockets
0:11:40 > 0:11:43of different types of cartels, and that extends to a lot
0:11:43 > 0:11:46of society, unfortunately.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49When you talk about corruption, we do have corruption in the media.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52We do have corruption in our justice system.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55We do have corruption in the government.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59It is a very tough job to deal with all these things.
0:11:59 > 0:12:00We are trying our best.
0:12:00 > 0:12:01We're not perfect, but...
0:12:01 > 0:12:02Far from perfect.
0:12:02 > 0:12:03Yes!
0:12:03 > 0:12:04Far from perfect.
0:12:04 > 0:12:04Let's look at...
0:12:04 > 0:12:08Yeah, but you come from an African country, or at least originally came
0:12:08 > 0:12:09from an African country.
0:12:09 > 0:12:10Yes, yes, yes.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13If you look at the kind of freedoms you have here,
0:12:13 > 0:12:15compared that to those you have in Sudan...
0:12:15 > 0:12:16Yes, where I was born.
0:12:16 > 0:12:17Yes.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20But the thing is, violence as we saw in both elections...
0:12:20 > 0:12:23Of course, there were the elections in early August, and then
0:12:23 > 0:12:24the rerun on October 26th.
0:12:24 > 0:12:29You know, 92 people lost their lives in that period, including children,
0:12:29 > 0:12:32and this violence has really, really tainted the victory of
0:12:32 > 0:12:34Uhuru Kenyatta, which was accepted by the international community
0:12:34 > 0:12:35on October 26th.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39Hasn't it?
0:12:40 > 0:12:44Any death is unfortunate.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47Unfortunately, a lot of these deaths took place in the opposition areas.
0:12:47 > 0:12:57The strongholds of Raila Odinga.
0:12:57 > 0:13:02Unfortunately, we also know that there's so much violence in that
0:13:02 > 0:13:04part of the country, even during their primaries,
0:13:05 > 0:13:07where the government's side, or the Jubilee's side,
0:13:07 > 0:13:08is not involved, people die.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11They kill themselves.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13And those numbers, those numbers get into the national figures
0:13:13 > 0:13:16as to the number of people who have died.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18And you find that it is ODM against ODM deaths.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21It's the police and security forces, according to the Kenya
0:13:21 > 0:13:25Human Rights Commission, and Human Rights Watch again say
0:13:25 > 0:13:28that the vast majority of these people were killed by the police
0:13:28 > 0:13:31or security forces, either in crossfire or shot at directly.
0:13:31 > 0:13:33Yes.
0:13:33 > 0:13:34You accept that?
0:13:34 > 0:13:35Well, I don't accept it.
0:13:36 > 0:13:37Particularly in opposition strongholds like Nyanza
0:13:37 > 0:13:39in the west of Kenya.
0:13:39 > 0:13:39Yes, yes.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42In opposition strongholds, first of all, there was a lot
0:13:42 > 0:13:44of ODM on ODM killing during the nominations.
0:13:44 > 0:13:47Those figures adapt to...
0:13:47 > 0:13:49ODM is of course one of the opposition parties.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51The Orange Democratic Movement.
0:13:51 > 0:13:52Opposition members against opposition members,
0:13:52 > 0:13:53killing themselves.
0:13:53 > 0:13:53That is fact.
0:13:53 > 0:13:55Nobody can deny it.
0:13:55 > 0:14:00But it's also the police.
0:14:00 > 0:14:01And then...
0:14:01 > 0:14:02OK.
0:14:02 > 0:14:03It's the police as well.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05I have to say to Raphael Tuju...
0:14:05 > 0:14:06I'll go to the police.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08No, I want to explain the police.
0:14:08 > 0:14:09The police are human beings.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12You approach them with cruel weapons, with knives, with machetes,
0:14:12 > 0:14:15I don't think they should be standing there waiting
0:14:15 > 0:14:16for you to kill them.
0:14:16 > 0:14:17We did lose policemen.
0:14:17 > 0:14:19It would not be allowed in the UK.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21It would not be allowed in the US.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24When activists from opposition strongholds, or political players,
0:14:24 > 0:14:26arm themselves with machetes, and swords, and all kinds
0:14:26 > 0:14:31of missiles, aiming at the police, the police will act in self-defence.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36By shooting people.
0:14:36 > 0:14:40Kenya Human Rights Commission advice chair, George Marara,
0:14:40 > 0:14:43says the police have turned brutality into a normalcy.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46Police have made it their custom to violate the sanctity of life
0:14:46 > 0:14:58they purport to protect.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01If you're a policeman and someone is coming at you with a machete
0:15:01 > 0:15:05to kill you, or to take away your gun so they can use it
0:15:05 > 0:15:07to shoot you, I think you should shoot them.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10Raila Odinga says - told us it's the complete opposite,
0:15:10 > 0:15:13that people in Opposition areas are actually asking for weapons
0:15:13 > 0:15:15in order to protect themselves against the police
0:15:15 > 0:15:16and security forces.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18Human Rights Watch carried out numerous interviews
0:15:18 > 0:15:20between September and November last year, during the second election,
0:15:20 > 0:15:23and found cases of women reporting being raped by policemen
0:15:23 > 0:15:26and men in uniform.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30I mean, there are just so many that I could just list for you.
0:15:30 > 0:15:34You look at surveys.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37You know that the police really topped the survey of having...
0:15:37 > 0:15:40People have the least confidence in them as a public institution.
0:15:40 > 0:15:42You, as a government, have to address this.
0:15:42 > 0:15:47I'm amazed you believe Raila Odinga, but if you do...
0:15:47 > 0:15:48Well, it's not just Raila Odinga.
0:15:48 > 0:15:49Human Rights Watch.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51I keep on saying to you, these organisations.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53Your own Kenya Human Rights Commission.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56I mean, people who were residents in the area around the swearing-in
0:15:57 > 0:16:04ceremony talked about live bullets being fired at people.
0:16:04 > 0:16:07But the police always are at the butt of every complaint,
0:16:07 > 0:16:11but one of the things that people forget is the number of lives
0:16:11 > 0:16:14that the police save.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17But, Raphael Tuju, something's going on in Kenya, isn't it?
0:16:17 > 0:16:20In the runup to the August election, the first one,
0:16:20 > 0:16:23we saw that the IT chief of the Electoral Commission,
0:16:23 > 0:16:32Chris Msando, was murdered just days before the vote,
0:16:32 > 0:16:33and his body showed signs of torture.
0:16:34 > 0:16:36In October, before the second election, we saw another commission
0:16:36 > 0:16:39member flee for her life to the United States.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41Something sinister is afoot.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44Well, first of all, I regret the fact that this particular
0:16:44 > 0:16:46official was found dead.
0:16:46 > 0:16:50He had reported the previous year that his life was in danger.
0:16:50 > 0:16:56We were surprised that somebody who feels his life was in danger
0:16:56 > 0:16:58was in a nightclub until 12 midnight, one o'clock,
0:16:58 > 0:17:01alone, without his security, in a nightclub, and he was having
0:17:01 > 0:17:09this kind of...
0:17:09 > 0:17:12So nothing to do with the election, you're saying?
0:17:12 > 0:17:14So nothing to do with the election.
0:17:14 > 0:17:15What has your investigation yielded?
0:17:15 > 0:17:17I'm not in the investigation unit of the police,
0:17:17 > 0:17:19I'm the Secretary-General of the party.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22But I want to say something about the claims by Raila Odinga
0:17:22 > 0:17:25and his ODM team that they won.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28They lost this election in February, when we finished
0:17:28 > 0:17:29the registration of voters.
0:17:29 > 0:17:31You're talking about the election on August 8th?
0:17:31 > 0:17:31Yes.
0:17:31 > 0:17:32Which was...
0:17:32 > 0:17:34The result was rescinded by the Supreme Court.
0:17:34 > 0:17:34Yes.
0:17:35 > 0:17:37October 26th, the second election, he boycotts that.
0:17:37 > 0:17:38Yes, and do you know why?
0:17:38 > 0:17:39I'd like to explain that.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43Elections are won during registration, and because he found
0:17:43 > 0:17:48out rather late in the day that they had not registered so many
0:17:48 > 0:17:51people in his strongholds, he went to court over 30 times
0:17:51 > 0:17:53to stop the elections from happening in August,
0:17:53 > 0:18:02on August the 8th.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05They tried 30 times.
0:18:05 > 0:18:06All right.
0:18:06 > 0:18:08But is Uhuru Kenyatta's victory in October 26th...
0:18:08 > 0:18:10How legitimate is that victory?
0:18:10 > 0:18:11The turnout was around 35%.
0:18:11 > 0:18:1327 constituencies couldn't vote.
0:18:13 > 0:18:20I mean, that would surely raise questions about the authority
0:18:20 > 0:18:22of his government at least, his victory?
0:18:23 > 0:18:25I can give you the French figures, if you want -
0:18:26 > 0:18:27they're in the 30s.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29I can give you the US figures.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32I mean, only 50% of the people in the US voted.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34But 27 constituencies in the October election didn't vote.
0:18:34 > 0:18:40Yes.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43The 27 which did not vote did not vote because they didn't
0:18:43 > 0:18:46want to vote, but it was because the Opposition visited
0:18:46 > 0:18:48violence in these places, made sure that people
0:18:48 > 0:18:49could not vote.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52The IBC, who were trying to organise voting in those areas,
0:18:52 > 0:18:55they were beaten up, they were chased away,
0:18:55 > 0:19:00and you cannot come before the law and say, look,
0:19:00 > 0:19:03I've stopped people from voting, therefore people did not vote,
0:19:03 > 0:19:05and therefore the election should be nullified.
0:19:05 > 0:19:09He didn't want to be involved in that election because he said
0:19:09 > 0:19:12the reforms that he wanted at the Electoral Commission had not
0:19:12 > 0:19:15been carried out, and therefore, what was the point of running
0:19:15 > 0:19:16in the election?
0:19:16 > 0:19:18Amazing.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22He should have gone back to the same Supreme Court,
0:19:22 > 0:19:24which had nullified the previous elections, and complained
0:19:24 > 0:19:26about this, but for him to decide unilaterally...
0:19:27 > 0:19:29The Supreme Court has pronounced itself on this,
0:19:29 > 0:19:32and then he says, oh, by the way, as the Supreme Court was pronouncing
0:19:32 > 0:19:35itself on this, they forgot this particular element,
0:19:35 > 0:19:37I'm going to add it into the conditions myself.
0:19:37 > 0:19:38Which law is that?
0:19:38 > 0:19:40So what are you going to do now?
0:19:40 > 0:19:43The Government's position is that Raila Odinga has committed
0:19:43 > 0:19:45high treason by declaring himself the People's President.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48He says he wants to set up the People's Assembly,
0:19:48 > 0:19:50have a People's Convention, have a campaign of civil
0:19:50 > 0:19:52disobedience, you know, protests around the country
0:19:52 > 0:20:00and so on.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02How are you going to handle all this?
0:20:02 > 0:20:05Well, we are dealing with a very desperate man,
0:20:05 > 0:20:08because it is on record, he said it himself, that this
0:20:08 > 0:20:09was his last time to run.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12All his colleagues who have supported him have made it very
0:20:13 > 0:20:15clear, and they do have a memorandum of understanding
0:20:15 > 0:20:18that he may not run in the next elections.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21Unfortunately, like all of us, we are ageing, so he has reached
0:20:21 > 0:20:24an advanced age of 74 years, so this is his last chance.
0:20:24 > 0:20:25Will you arrest him?
0:20:25 > 0:20:27That's not my province to discuss.
0:20:27 > 0:20:28I think that...
0:20:28 > 0:20:31But if he's committed high treason, according to your government,
0:20:31 > 0:20:33shouldn't he be arrested?
0:20:33 > 0:20:36Well, that is up to the Minister and the department which deals
0:20:36 > 0:20:37with criminal issues to discuss.
0:20:37 > 0:20:42So, Raila Odinga's position now is that he would like the reforms
0:20:42 > 0:20:45to the Electoral Commission and to the judiciary,
0:20:45 > 0:20:47and you yourself have said the judiciary is tainted
0:20:47 > 0:20:55by ethnicity, and then he wants a third election in August.
0:20:55 > 0:20:56What's the government's response to that?
0:20:56 > 0:20:58It's like a broken record.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01He's been singing that since 1997.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04He, in 1997, when he lost to Moi, he said he needed elections
0:21:04 > 0:21:08in 30 days.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11To Daniel Arap Moi.
0:21:11 > 0:21:16To Daniel Arap Moi.
0:21:16 > 0:21:17In 1997...
0:21:17 > 0:21:18To Mwai Kibaki.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21To Mwai Kibaki, when he lost in 2007, he insisted that elections
0:21:21 > 0:21:24were rigged, so he's never accepted that he's lost an election,
0:21:24 > 0:21:28but if you study the Kenyan voting pattern, if you study the Kenyan
0:21:28 > 0:21:31groups of populations and ethnic mix, he has no mathematical chance
0:21:31 > 0:21:33to win an election.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36But has Uhuru Kenyatta been a good president for Kenya?
0:21:36 > 0:21:38This is his second and final term.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40When you look around, corruption is a huge
0:21:40 > 0:21:43problem in Kenya.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46You accept that?
0:21:46 > 0:21:47I accept.
0:21:47 > 0:21:48Not done anything about it?
0:21:48 > 0:21:50He's had a first term.
0:21:50 > 0:21:51He's starting his second term.
0:21:51 > 0:21:55I mean, I just give you an idea...
0:21:55 > 0:21:57This is a man who sacked 13 ministers.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59Unprecedented in Kenyan history.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02He was tough, as much as he could be.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04He says his hands are tied.
0:22:04 > 0:22:10He can't do more.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13Well, because of...
0:22:13 > 0:22:15He is the President.
0:22:15 > 0:22:19Well, because of a very corrupt judicial system.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22Some of the people who are supporting the Opposition have court
0:22:22 > 0:22:24cases on corruption, and they support the Opposition
0:22:24 > 0:22:26because that gives them a chance to go free,
0:22:26 > 0:22:29but they have court cases on corruption, they have filed
0:22:29 > 0:22:31injunctions against being prosecuted, the courts have granted
0:22:31 > 0:22:34them this, and these are known entrepreneurs who are involved
0:22:34 > 0:22:40in all kinds of...
0:22:40 > 0:22:43In fact, we call them tentrepreneurs, because they are
0:22:43 > 0:22:45involved in all kinds of corrupt practices.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48Some of the worst known thieves and crooks are members of ODM,
0:22:48 > 0:22:51and they are running away from the justice system.
0:22:51 > 0:22:56And he himself, though...
0:22:56 > 0:22:58I tell you, though, you're absolving him completely?
0:22:58 > 0:23:01Because I tell you what Herman Maynor of the University
0:23:01 > 0:23:01of Nairobi says.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04He says, "When you look at Kenyatta's big projects
0:23:04 > 0:23:08for the country, they look good on paper, but they suffer
0:23:08 > 0:23:09from corruption during implementation."
0:23:09 > 0:23:11He blames the middlemen and the brokers, but also
0:23:11 > 0:23:13the President himself.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16He says, "I don't understand why a man like him, who comes
0:23:16 > 0:23:18from a wealthy family, would allow wheeler-dealers
0:23:18 > 0:23:19to tarnish his legacy through corruption."
0:23:20 > 0:23:22I put it to you, Uhuru Kenyatta's legacy has been tarnished
0:23:23 > 0:23:23through corruption.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26The issue of corruption is something that all past
0:23:26 > 0:23:30presidents have suffered from.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33It is a reflection of the society in which we live in.
0:23:34 > 0:23:36In fact, in a time that the Opposition has talked
0:23:36 > 0:23:38about corruption, I've always asked him, which one?
0:23:38 > 0:23:40The one you were involved in?
0:23:40 > 0:23:42The one Raila was involved in?
0:23:42 > 0:23:45The one Kalonzo was involved in?
0:23:45 > 0:23:46In terms of...
0:23:46 > 0:23:48Kalonzo was Raila Odinga's running mate.
0:23:48 > 0:23:49Yes, running mate.
0:23:49 > 0:23:50They were all involved.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53They all have skeletons in their closet.
0:23:53 > 0:23:53They all have...
0:23:53 > 0:23:55And so does the President?
0:23:55 > 0:23:56Not that I know of.
0:23:56 > 0:23:57Isn't he Kenya's wealthiest man?
0:23:58 > 0:23:58Well...
0:23:58 > 0:24:05Or at least one of the wealthiest.
0:24:05 > 0:24:06Well, I would say so.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08I don't know his net worth.
0:24:08 > 0:24:10I've never really bothered to investigate that,
0:24:10 > 0:24:12but you can explain where his wealth is coming from.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14He is not a tentrepreneur.
0:24:14 > 0:24:14Now...
0:24:14 > 0:24:17Is he the right person, Uhuru Kenyatta, with all this family
0:24:17 > 0:24:20wealth, the divisions we are seeing now between the Opposition
0:24:20 > 0:24:23and the Government in Kenya, and people worried about the economy
0:24:23 > 0:24:24and so on.
0:24:24 > 0:24:26Is he the right person really to lead Kenya?
0:24:26 > 0:24:29Of course he is, and that's why I work with him.
0:24:29 > 0:24:32Raphael Tuju, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.
0:24:32 > 0:24:33Thank you.
0:24:33 > 0:24:33PLeasure.